@flugel said:

Your buddy Flugel seems to think that Tebow is going to be better at putting people in the seats in Jacksonville than WINNING did in earlier parts of 2009. I don't know if anyone else saw all the empty seats there when they were putting together wins; BUT don't underestimate the value of putting something in the product the customers/fans WANT to buy. Jax doesn't have this right now. I'll bet there's a lot of teabags for Tebow though as there prolly should be in that area of the country. I'm not saying I know what Tebow will do at the next level - I'm just saying they need to start putting fannies in the seats there a hop and a skip from Gainesville or Los Angeles just might have their next franchise on the horizon. Not sure WHY LA is the place the NFL is Jonesing for because they lost 2 teams from the SAME lack of interest going on in Jacksonville.

It would be kind of ironic to see Tebow showing up as the football messiah with Biblical scripture numbers painted on his face. I don't blame Peens for going Loverboy on Tebow. I just hope he doesn't get that heebeegeebee with it or we're gonna have to resort to some Jerry Springer-level behavior mod tactics.

- Tom F.

Flugs, I've feared this for awhile now but just didn't want to believe it. Teabags is the quintessential Jaquar, he may as well be Mark Brunell reincarnate. Handsome, lefty, Christian, local god, can run with the ball---it's a perfect setup for a great marriage made in heaven for those crackers down there that in no way deserve a pro football team. They couldn't sell that place out when they were winning year in and year out, not to mention they sat on their hands and acted like FSU fan playing Arkansas State--"This is terrible, we are only winning 24-10, come on Mark."

It just sucks we can lose one of our own Tennessee Browns fans to the Jags before they move. Peens already went Gator fan on us from Buckeye blood so who is to say he won't follow Timmy Teabaggage to the World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party neighborhood.

@riffer-x said:

Great work Peens, I can't imagine being at a tailgate together toasting to Michael effing Vick. Come on, smarten up and quit trying to stir bullshit up.

I'm shocked you want Tebow BTW, I would have never guessed. What is it about these tight butted lefty runners you like so much? Never mind..........

It doesn't matter if anyone wants Vick because Andy Reid ain't letting him go at this point in time. That said, WE need Michael Vick to be good in order for us to have a shot at prying loose Kevin Kolb from Philly. I don't care how absurd that sounds.

Your buddy Flugel seems to think that Tebow is going to be better at putting people in the seats in Jacksonville than WINNING did in earlier parts of 2009. I don't know if anyone else saw all the empty seats there when they were putting together wins; BUT don't underestimate the value of putting something in the product the customers/fans WANT to buy. Jax doesn't have this right now. I'll bet there's a lot of teabags for Tebow though as there prolly should be in that area of the country. I'm not saying I know what Tebow will do at the next level - I'm just saying they need to start putting fannies in the seats there a hop and a skip from Gainesville or Los Angeles just might have their next franchise on the horizon. Not sure WHY LA is the place the NFL is Jonesing for because they lost 2 teams from the SAME lack of interest going on in Jacksonville.

It would be kind of ironic to see Tebow showing up as the football messiah with Biblical scripture numbers painted on his face. I don't blame Peens for going Loverboy on Tebow. I just hope he doesn't get that heebeegeebee with it or we're gonna have to resort to some Jerry Springer-level behavior mod tactics.

- Tom F.

Great work Peens, I can't imagine being at a tailgate together toasting to Michael effing Vick. Come on, smarten up and quit trying to stir bullshit up.

I'm shocked you want Tebow BTW, I would have never guessed. What is it about these tight butted lefty runners you like so much? Never mind..........

@mark-o said:

He's Josh Cribbs with more speed and a better arm and less strength.

Mark, he's led a team to the NFC Champioinship early on with a stiff like Mora Jr as his Head Coach and Kevin FREAKIN Shaffer as his blind side Left Tackle. Let's just say after watching Shaffer play Left Tackle HERE I get 2 things: 1) the need for track spikes on Sunday and 2) making an All pro out of the TE in the passing game.

It's not ANY of us wanting Vick in the game in Philly - it's Andy Reid. It's hard to question his knowledge of what's acceptable at QB based on what he's done in this league IMO. Again, people thought just as LITTLE of Steve Young in the days before he had Jerry Rice, John Taylor Brent Jones, TO and company out west. If that is a BAD example - think of Randall Cunningham coming out of retirement to go to Minnesota for a best ever season:

Year Age Tm Pos G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Rate

1998*+ 35 MIN QB 15 14 13-1-0 259 425 60.9 3704 34 8.0 10 106.0

Most of his seasons in Philly on a good team never had him getting passer ratings above the 70s. It's possible that the RIGHT Coach, right system blends well with a WINNER. Vick won at every level Mark and somewhere in all this we gotta make that a trend.

I think people are UNCOMFORTABLE with Vick because he's fast and can move the chains on foot. I'm STILL hearing Vince Young can't win in this league because he's not the prototypical passer. He won 8 of his last 10 starts, only losing to Manning's Colts and the Chargers (2 homefield playoff teams). Speaking of which, the STEVE YOUNG highlight I've seen most is the 60 yard TD run vrs the Vikings in the playoffs more than any of his countless good passes.

- Tom F.

@ballpeen said:

On a more realistic note, I would bring Vick to Cleveland to be the bridge between the here and now and the future qb, whoever that might be.

That C Mich qb has some possibilities as a late 2nd, early 3rd round pick. We have some extra picks, so maybe grab him a round early if you think he has what it takes and let him sit behind Vick for a year or two.

We could win games with Vick, and he wouldn't be all that expensive to get...and he would be realistic to get....Philly isn't trading Kolb as an example.

Tebow? Not second 'Peen. The guy has won games, but as was pointed out in the Sugar Bowl, his mechanics are going to have to be completely re-done. Holding the ball that low, he'll get it knocked out of his hand every time a DL gets within 6 feet of him.

Vick won't show up in Cleveland even if we could get him for free. Second chance sure, but the baggage is too great for a Mangini team. If we go after any vet qb it will be Hasselbeck IMO.

Yeah, I see us picking up LeFevre or Pike with our extra third round pick.

@ballpeen said:

On a more realistic note, I would bring Vick to Cleveland to be the bridge between the here and now and the future qb, whoever that might be.

That C Mich qb has some possibilities as a late 2nd, early 3rd round pick. We have some extra picks, so maybe grab him a round early if you think he has what it takes and let him sit behind Vick for a year or two.

We could win games with Vick, and he wouldn't be all that expensive to get...and he would be realistic to get....Philly isn't trading Kolb as an example.

I'm a little surprised you'd want that cancer here Peen.

Too much good press lately?

We've heard too much about his bad attitude even before the animal torture side of his personality came out.

What, are we the Raiders now?

WSS

On a more realistic note, I would bring Vick to Cleveland to be the bridge between the here and now and the future qb, whoever that might be.

That C Mich qb has some possibilities as a late 2nd, early 3rd round pick. We have some extra picks, so maybe grab him a round early if you think he has what it takes and let him sit behind Vick for a year or two.

We could win games with Vick, and he wouldn't be all that expensive to get...and he would be realistic to get....Philly isn't trading Kolb as an example.

@rich4eagle said:

RE: championships. Sure do- guys like Doug Williams and Trent Dilfer. BTW, I agree Anderson is a stiff.

Baltimore beat the mighty Patsies Tom Brady with Flacco throwing all of 10 passes (4 completions) for 34 yards.

He's Josh Cribbs with more speed and a better arm and less strength.

@rich4eagle said:

I'm glad you're not running this outfit, then.

@cambridgeho said:

QB's win Championships, we got two stiffs. Time to get the real deal. Now is not too early to draft a QB with the one pick. I would take Bradford

@flugel said:

As for Micahel Vick, I shared your enthusiasm for him coming out of college and explained I though him leading Atlanta to an NFC Championship Game appearance was a good accomplishment people often forget. That's why I was compelled to correct someone comparing Pat White to Vick.

As for Troy Smith - I just LIKE the guy. I know there's people stuck on pause with what all those scouts thought of where he should be projected. That said, MOST scouts had Jamarcus Russell as the #1 rated QB just like most scouts wouldn't have recommended Tom Brady before round 6 back in 2000. When it comes to the QB - there is NO exact science. That's why brasses come and go every single year because that's just such a hard thing to get right. Take a guy like Kurt Warner - NOBODY had that guy pegged before the draft for how he's playing today and since his coming out party in St Louis. Guess what? Is Tony Romo a similar story? And Brett Favre played at a school that ran that same similar style of offense that Donovan McNabb played in at college - it was Veer Option style of offense (prompting many scouts to stick their noses in the air at Favre and McNabb). Of course, there's us drafting Couch AND Quinn where BOTH kids were recruited to QB offenses that ran alot of wishbone plays before their last coaches had them chicking the ball downfield.

With ANY QB - you gotta do your research and go with you gut. Good news? Holmgren's Packers once had the following QBs employed at 1 time: Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre and Mark Brunell. Somebody knew how to find some good prospects there.

- Tom F.

Very good info man.

@earl34 said:

I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.

First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.

Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism.

Good points Earl. I think McNabb was a better fit in Philly than the Ricky Williams who would need prozac to handle his adjustment to the NFL better. Philly's made it to 5 NFC Championships since 1999 and 1 Superbowl. Not only that, but Philly got a GREAT bargain in Brian Westbrook out of Villanova in round 3 or 4 - who's been an epic key to Philly's success as well.

As for Micahel Vick, I shared your enthusiasm for him coming out of college and explained I though him leading Atlanta to an NFC Championship Game appearance was a good accomplishment people often forget. That's why I was compelled to correct someone comparing Pat White to Vick.

As for Troy Smith - I just LIKE the guy. I know there's people stuck on pause with what all those scouts thought of where he should be projected. That said, MOST scouts had Jamarcus Russell as the #1 rated QB just like most scouts wouldn't have recommended Tom Brady before round 6 back in 2000. When it comes to the QB - there is NO exact science. That's why brasses come and go every single year because that's just such a hard thing to get right. Take a guy like Kurt Warner - NOBODY had that guy pegged before the draft for how he's playing today and since his coming out party in St Louis. Guess what? Is Tony Romo a similar story? And Brett Favre played at a school that ran that same similar style of offense that Donovan McNabb played in at college - it was Veer Option style of offense (prompting many scouts to stick their noses in the air at Favre and McNabb). Of course, there's us drafting Couch AND Quinn where BOTH kids were recruited to QB offenses that ran alot of wishbone plays before their last coaches had them chicking the ball downfield.

With ANY QB - you gotta do your research and go with you gut. Good news? Holmgren's Packers once had the following QBs employed at 1 time: Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre and Mark Brunell. Somebody knew how to find some good prospects there.

- Tom F.

@earl34 said:

I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.

First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.

Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism. Lest we forget that Michael Vick led the Falcons to the playoffs and beat Favre and the Pack at Lambeau for the first time ever. He was voted to two Pro Bowls and ran for more yards than any other QB except Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. I am not saying that Michael Vick was a great (or even good) QB (rumor has it that 95% of the Virginia Tech playbook had to be thrown out because he couldn't learn it) but he did win football games under Dan Reeves and he put butts in the seats. Can he recapture any of that? I don't know. Even though I was never a fan of his teams, I always would stop when I saw he was on to see what he'd do next. He has actually accomplished something in this league which can't be said for everyone. This isn't an endorsement of him so the Browns can trade for him but rather a fan that wants some fairness in depicting his resume (good or bad).

Troy Smith, on the other hand, suffers from a different problem. His resume is limited. I wouldn't say that there's enough evidence to say that he can't play NFL level QB and if a favorable contract was to be forged, he could have a chance. I think that, in part, Troy Smith suffered the same problem as Chris Simms after Simms ruptured his spleen. He lost a lot of weight after his illness and it was an opportunity for an organization to write off someone that they were lukewarm about "just because". He otherwise was supposedly to get a chance to play before it all happened.

Good points Earl. My point wasn't to bash Ricky Williams as much as to point out how a guy like McNabb changed Philly's culture from deserving to be the first team to draft (after us using a expansion first format) into a team that's always in the playoffs and been in 5 NFC Championship Games since the 99 draft. Ricky, on the other hand, found himself somewhat overwhelmed at the transition from college to pros if we remember readign about him needing to get on prozac. Not only that but think about what Philly would draft at RB in the 3rd or 4th round by the name of Brian Westbrook. IMO, he was a betetr fit to Philly's offense than Rickey would have been.

I thought of Michael Vick much the way you did when he came out of college, which was why I was q

@flugel said:

Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.

The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.

- Tom F

Tom,

I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.

First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.

Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism. Lest we forget that Michael Vick led the Falcons to the playoffs and beat Favre and the Pack at Lambeau for the first time ever. He was voted to two Pro Bowls and ran for more yards than any other QB except Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. I am not saying that Michael Vick was a great (or even good) QB (rumor has it that 95% of the Virginia Tech playbook had to be thrown out because he couldn't learn it) but he did win football games under Dan Reeves and he put butts in the seats. Can he recapture any of that? I don't know. Even though I was never a fan of his teams, I always would stop when I saw he was on to see what he'd do next. He has actually accomplished something in this league which can't be said for everyone. This isn't an endorsement of him so the Browns can trade for him but rather a fan that wants some fairness in depicting his resume (good or bad).

Troy Smith, on the other hand, suffers from a different problem. His resume is limited. I wouldn't say that there's enough evidence to say that he can't play NFL level QB and if a favorable contract was to be forged, he could have a chance. I think that, in part, Troy Smith suffered the same problem as Chris Simms after Simms ruptured his spleen. He lost a lot of weight after his illness and it was an opportunity for an organization to write off someone that they were lukewarm about "just because". He otherwise was supposedly to get a chance to play before it all happened.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

That's just what I believe.

You make some interesting points Couch Pulls! Remember what people thought of Steve Young when he left Tampa Bay? In Tampa his nickname was "the Running Man." Young wrote in his autobiography that he started believing what he was reading in the media that he had small hands which weren't compatible with humdity and slippery footballs. Something alon g that line. Was that REALLY the case or did he just need surroundings like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, Garrison Hearst and Charlie Garner? You get guys like that around you with some All Pro blockers in front of you and suddenly you're not thinking: "Should I stay or should I go" in that pocket (or outside it) any more.

Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.

The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.

- Tom F

@unsympathetic said:

We need studs on the O-line - without an O-line it doesn't matter who's at QB or RB. Thomas is great; Steinbach and Mack are good.

Wright is a great #2 CB, McCutcheon is a great #3.. with Haden, the defensive backfield instantly improves tremendously.

Unless he's drafted already, they need Haden. If he's taken, pick Okung.. third option is Williams.

Daylon McCutcheon retired after the 2007 season. After we released him. Did you mean McDonald?

We need studs on the O-line - without an O-line it doesn't matter who's at QB or RB. Thomas is great; Steinbach and Mack are good.

Wright is a great #2 CB, McCutcheon is a great #3.. with Haden, the defensive backfield instantly improves tremendously.

Unless he's drafted already, they need Haden. If he's taken, pick Okung.. third option is Williams.

@hoorta said:

Browns needs- IMHO

1) stud pass rusher

2) legit #1 wr

3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)

4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)

5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)

6) stud LB

7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.

trent williams or bruce campbell with the army of darkness

@drunkandstoopid said:

Did you watch every game of Quinn's career, and nearly every ND game for the past 25 years? If not, you probably aren't better equipped to pronounce judgments on ND's personnel when Quinn was there than I am. ND had a solid offensive line, a good TE, a solid WR, and a very good QB. You can believe what you will, but everyone who watched Notre Dame regularly saw that he was, far and away, the best player on that team.

@cambridgeho said:

He has to. They're the only things keeping his body together.