@samoth said:

I agree. I actually thought ted played pretty well his first year here, shouldn't have played that final year. But Ted was far past his peak, he was an immovable object who could destroy anything up the middle in his prime. He was better than rogers in his prime imho

@deadwombat said:

You could get Kolb cheaper than a 2nd and Rodgers. He performed well by a #'s standpoint, but he was playing from behind and was just inflating his #'s against a prevent defense. I don't know how good he'll be or how good he COULD be, but I think we're better off drafting a QB in the 2nd round than trading it along with Rodgers for Kolb.

@thaak said:

Yes, the basic requirements are that the NT doesn’t get pushed back, occupies one or two blockers, and allows the linebackers to make plays at or behind the line of scrimmage.

However, if that NT can be disruptive rather than just immovable (think volcano rather than a mountain), then you have the difference between a crappy to average 3-4 to a great 3-4. Think of all the great 3-4 defenses and tell me one that didn’t have a disruptive NT.

I know I’d rather have a bulldozer than a wall.

Disruptive NT’s can cause significant problems in the running game. Because it can close off a lane giving the LB’s less to cover. It can also close off cutback lanes. Cutback runs produce the statistical majority of runs over 20 yards.

Ted Washington was 40 years old and long past his prime by the time we got him. He was a beast for the Patriots when he was younger, easily the best NT in the league.

the point was made on another board that the Eagle's system could be the strong suit.

(they could be capable of plugging any decent qb in and doing well... a la Garcia's strong finish a few years' back)

i dunno... food for thought. But i am of the camp that if we bring in either Mcnabb or Kolb (for minimum cost) we are upgrading at qb. for now.

Maybe McNabb plus the ole miss guy (snead?)

@browniebago said:

If we can get Kolb, I say we do it. I would rather spend that draft pick on a QB that would be starting for Andy Reid, if it wasn't for McNabb, than spend a draft pick on a rookie QB and possibly another pick to get a veteran. Reid seems to think Kolb is ready to start in the NFL. What has Reid done to give any of us any doubt as to his assessment of QB's? To me, in the limited action he's seen, Kolb has looked very good. Yes he made some mistakes. But, overall, he has been good.

You want us to get a veteran to groom a freshly drafted QB? Kolb was groomed by one of the best veterans in the league today. In fact, he was groomed by the veteran that many people want the Browns to grab to groom a QB here. Kolb is ready. And he's getting frustrated in Philly. He won't get his shot there for, at least, another year, or until McNabb calls it quits there. Philly won't be able to keep them both and won't want to lose either of them for free. Their best bet is to trade one now. McNabb has been their start QB and a fan favorite for years, and his departure would probably make for some disgruntled fans and season ticket holders. So, Philly is more likely to trade Kolb and draft a new future QB than to trade McNabb.

The last thing the Browns need is to draft another QB early. Round 3 is the earliest it should even be considered. Rounds 1 & 2 need to be set on DB's and O-line. Or a pass rushing DE.

@thaak said:

Yes, the basic requirements are that the NT doesn’t get pushed back, occupies one or two blockers, and allows the linebackers to make plays at or behind the line of scrimmage.

However, if that NT can be disruptive rather than just immovable (think volcano rather than a mountain), then you have the difference between a crappy to average 3-4 to a great 3-4. Think of all the great 3-4 defenses and tell me one that didn’t have a disruptive NT.

I know I’d rather have a bulldozer than a wall.

Disruptive NT’s can cause significant problems in the running game. Because it can close off a lane giving the LB’s less to cover. It can also close off cutback lanes. Cutback runs produce the statistical majority of runs over 20 yards.

then explain the decrease in rushing yards given up when rogers went on IR. he gets himself outta position by slashing......leaving 2 gaps open where he used to be. he never did his job, because he's not a NT.

D'Qwell-Bradley-Fokou would give them a young, solid LB corps. He wouldn't be enough to get Kolb, but he could be a big part of the deal.

@lambdo said:

This guy was a complete bust until this year where he only began to show glimpses.. he still won't hesitate to throw picks.

Troy Smith getting a chance would be better than this nob.

We'll never get Troy Smith so lets forget about that. With Kolb, ask yourself who you would rather see behind Mack? DA, Quinn, or Kolb? That's why I put a higher premium on him. Plus, Philly seems to believe that he is absolutely ready to start for them. They even gave Vick 2nd team reps because they believe Kolb to be ready now. That's the biggest issue, will Philly even let him go?

@thaak said:

Yes, the basic requirements are that the NT doesn’t get pushed back, occupies one or two blockers, and allows the linebackers to make plays at or behind the line of scrimmage.

However, if that NT can be disruptive rather than just immovable (think volcano rather than a mountain), then you have the difference between a crappy to average 3-4 to a great 3-4. Think of all the great 3-4 defenses and tell me one that didn’t have a disruptive NT.

I know I’d rather have a bulldozer than a wall.

Disruptive NT’s can cause significant problems in the running game. Because it can close off a lane giving the LB’s less to cover. It can also close off cutback lanes. Cutback runs produce the statistical majority of runs over 20 yards.

I do understand a 3-4 and you are completely correct. I was just saying, it would be easier to draft/sign a large DT to take his place or just play Rubin than it would be to draft/sign a QB or just play Quinn or Anderson. The jist is, he is easier to replace in one year than a QB is. And the Eagles should be drooling over the thought of having him in their 4-3. We give them Rogers and a 2nd, they give us Kolb and a 4th.

I love Rogers. He is top 5 in the league at his position and would never want to see him go however, our DL played pretty well if not better when he got hurt and considering the needs this team has, him and Jerome Harrison have the most trade value right now. The deciding factor is that Rogers can be replaced. If we ran a 4-3, I wouldn't part with him for anything less than a 1st and 3rd. But its a 3-4 and the most important trait for a DT is to take up space. Its easier to replace that position in a 3-4.

This guy was a complete bust until this year where he only began to show glimpses.. he still won't hesitate to throw picks.

Troy Smith getting a chance would be better than this nob.

@mopaji said:

Actually, I don’t think you really understand how the 3-4 works. If all we needed was some big, fat, strong guy to squat down and not get moved, we could get a sumo wrestler. Or better yet, we could have kept Ted Washington. That worked real well didn’t it?

Yes, the basic requirements are that the NT doesn’t get pushed back, occupies one or two blockers, and allows the linebackers to make plays at or behind the line of scrimmage.

However, if that NT can be disruptive rather than just immovable (think volcano rather than a mountain), then you have the difference between a crappy to average 3-4 to a great 3-4. Think of all the great 3-4 defenses and tell me one that didn’t have a disruptive NT.

I know I’d rather have a bulldozer than a wall.

Disruptive NT’s can cause significant problems in the running game. Because it can close off a lane giving the LB’s less to cover. It can also close off cutback lanes. Cutback runs produce the statistical majority of runs over 20 yards.

@choco said:

Then you haven’t been paying attention to what people are saying, or how Rogers is playing.

@ballpeen said:

I was trying not to scare people. I do understand anytime you start talking qbs in trade or start talking pick positions where a qb is available, there is a pretty good premium attached.

With Kolb, I am just not sure how high that premium might be.

I do not think the Eagles would give up Kolb for Rogers and a second. Rogers usefulness in a 4-3 is about over. His value as a player is about over. Plus he is 66% per cent player cannot play three downs in a row without being gassed. Our run defense was awful with the supposed run stuffer. He is overrated. The Eagles probably have no interest in him.

If we want Kolb it would take a first plus Rogers or some other package.

They probably realize the McChoke's time is coming to an end. And they surely are smarter than think Vick is a QB

Kolb would be nice it will take some other deal. Personally, I would never give more than a fourth for Rogers and make the Browns eat most of his salary. He was another /Savage blunder. The games at season end proved his worth to the D

@brownb499 said:

We?

WSS

@mark-o said:

As I said.....might get it done.

I was trying not to scare people. I do understand anytime you start talking qbs in trade or start talking pick positions where a qb is available, there is a pretty good premium attached.

With Kolb, I am just not sure how high that premium might be.

@mark-o said:

Yea, I'm not so sure their as high on Kolb as we are

Having those weapons surrounding him and AR coaching makes having a huge game a little more doable

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see us do a deal to bring him here and I would think that a team on verge of the SB

would jump at the chance to add a Pro Bowl DL and a #7 pick in the draft, think about what that could do for their defense,that's the kind of stuff the Patriots used to do.

I would also think that Reid may fancy himself as somewhat of a QB guru,after all didn't this guy roll one those Detmer

kids out there a few years back? and actually won.come to think of it I believe he's won with every QB he's put out there.

@brownb499 said:

Those two acquisitions get Philly to the SB they want so bad

We get the QB we need + fill a need at their draft spot (26 ?)

That almost sounds like a great idea. With all the juniors declaring early, I think there would be value there at 26

@ballpeen said:

Rogers and a 2nd might get it done.

I still think it would take more when you're talking about the QB of their future, who also had 2 huge games for them this year when McNabb went down.

Those two acquisitions get Philly to the SB they want so bad

We get the QB we need + fill a need at their draft spot (24 ?)

Rogers and a 2nd might get it done.

@mopaji said:

That REALLY isn't a bad idea at all. I know you (Mopaji) chimed in on that thread where I shifted gears from dodging bullets about my Troy Smith idea (for Dollar Store prices) to mentioning how unhappy Kolb and agent must be finding themselves playing 3rd fiddle to Michael Vick's 2nd fiddle. To be honest, I wouldn't think we should be the team giving up a day 1 pick if we send them an All Pro player for a QB that never got 2nd string duty in 2009. Unfortunately, we've never had a QB situation this crummy. Aside from Quinn's achey breaky shakey performance, we don't know if the 2 time IR inductee can heal or refrain from injury ahead.

Folks, I think Rogers is an Animal and he's All Planet at a position we've longed for upgrading. However, which one of his first 2 teams ever won 8 games BECAUSE of him? We didn't START winning and playing the kind of attacking defense we've longed for until AFTER he got injured. Maybe that's because we don't have to KEEP Rubin happy when he's already happy to be here doing what is asked of him; and he can be more the unselfish Bob Golic type of NT who's less apt for sacks but good at 2 gap. It just seems like OTHERS played better in Rogers' absence than they did when he was playing so it's worth noting that this move Mopaji speaks of wouldn't KILL us.

Rogers has a NAME that can bring us some GOOD exchange value; especially at a QB position they're more content on seeing Vick play. If it's an Andy Reid trainee, guess who the coachign ancestor is in this one? Mike Homegrown.

Mopaji gets an A+ here folks!!!

- Tom F.