Sivlerback DPOY said:

Well S~Back we cut Unitas and Dawson. SO... all teams have skeletons in the closet.

@cambridgeho said:

Hilarious. But entertaining...continue. And your guys took the "good old days " Bait and Ran like Forrest Gump !!!! Bravissimo !!!

@sj_browns said:

Oh, there's no argument on my side that players were tougher back then. I believe it took a special kind of man to play football in the "way back when". It took a real set of stainless steel balls as well as a true passion for the game. They weren't getting paid millions upon of millions of dollars to play. They weren't constantly on television, endorsing god knows what product. They played just to play. There were no prima-donna receivers. The men that played then were the type of guys that ate corrugated steel and broken glass sandwiches. They were real men.

Now, don't get me wrong. I believe a majority of the players today have a true passion for the game as well. But money plays a huge factor in their decision making processes, too. It's just not comparable to the glory days of football.

Honestly, I haven't seen Steeler fan get this owned on here in a long time. Gotta go back to when Stoner spent a day in his basement putting together a picture package for us. He explained how Pitt got a first down by another phantom ref call that went their way even when the ball was a good 3 inches short.

Then there was the time Flugs got one of these numbnuts to spend a week doing research on steroids. The conclusion was that San Diego did them in the early 60's. Man was that a great thread.

These Steeler trolls are the best. They are the elite of the elite Pitt fans. Just the fact they can type puts them in the top ten percent, and if one of these assclowns has a job that automatically carries them to top 3%.

Reminds me of a Steeler friend of mine who has a bachelors and a decent job. He can speak too, so us Browns fan friends of his rank him in top ten of Steeler fans across the world. No dippin, no Neckar hat, he dresses fairly well, doesn't have the same ten year old Queerdell jersey that looked like he rolled in dirt the day he got it, full set of teeth---all that shit. A real Steeler success story.

He's passed on guys, you have no shot at him.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

The only difference with the athletes of today is the time dedicated to their bodies. I just read an article not too long ago on Matt Birk's life in the offseason. In the article, he claimed that there was less than a month that he was actually "off" from football, and those couple of weeks were immediately upon the conclusion of their season. The amounts these athletes go through to get to the next level are insane. The sacrifices they have to make are crazy.

In the 40's, 50's and 60's, the workout regimen was nothing like what it is today. The men smoked cigarettes and drank beer regularly. The diets were terrible. Sports medicine was a baby then, it barely even existed. Today, you walk into any gym and you'll find a $1,200 machine that works solely on your obliques. You'll probably see another $2,500 machine that is used solely to work on your glutes. Look around some more, and I'm sure you'll find a $3,000 machine designed specifically to work out your trapezius. Those didn't exist then. The athletes of that era were in worse shape, sure, but that's not because of any fault of theirs. It's simply because the "technology" hadn't evolved to the point it's at now. The level at which they could peak is nowhere near what it is today. And I'm not even factoring in any type of performance enhancers, protein supplements, or vitamins of any sort. Not to mention the people in the NFL today have more than likely been working out regularly since they were in middle school.

Another thing to consider is the fact that many of the men playing during Graham's era had to have second jobs in the offseason to make ends meet. It's not as if everybody was paid highly in those days. There was no CBA, no real structure to the contracts given. I'm sure a lot of men had financial trouble in the offseason. This all takes away from the time they could have spent focusing on their diets and bodies.

just to add to your points, the players back then had less protective equipment and they also didn't sit out with an injury as long as they do now in the nfl. there weren't a lot of rules and laws that were geared toward the health of the players back then either. one could argue that the players were tougher back then.

FREAKofSTEEL08 said:

As I said before, the evolutionary process of man isn't a quick thing. I highly doubt the caliber of men today are that much more athletically able than those of eras past.

The only difference with the athletes of today is the time dedicated to their bodies. I just read an article not too long ago on Matt Birk's life in the offseason. In the article, he claimed that there was less than a month that he was actually "off" from football, and those couple of weeks were immediately upon the conclusion of their season. The amounts these athletes go through to get to the next level are insane. The sacrifices they have to make are crazy.

In the 40's, 50's and 60's, the workout regimen was nothing like what it is today. The men smoked cigarettes and drank beer regularly. The diets were terrible. Sports medicine was a baby then, it barely even existed. Today, you walk into any gym and you'll find a $1,200 machine that works solely on your obliques. You'll probably see another $2,500 machine that is used solely to work on your glutes. Look around some more, and I'm sure you'll find a $3,000 machine designed specifically to work out your trapezius. Those didn't exist then. The athletes of that era were in worse shape, sure, but that's not because of any fault of theirs. It's simply because the "technology" hadn't evolved to the point it's at now. The level at which they could peak is nowhere near what it is today. And I'm not even factoring in any type of performance enhancers, protein supplements, or vitamins of any sort. Not to mention the people in the NFL today have more than likely been working out regularly since they were in middle school.

Another thing to consider is the fact that many of the men playing during Graham's era had to have second jobs in the offseason to make ends meet. It's not as if everybody was paid highly in those days. There was no CBA, no real structure to the contracts given. I'm sure a lot of men had financial trouble in the offseason. This all takes away from the time they could have spent focusing on their diets and bodies.

i guess they have forgotten how life was for them prior to the browns closing up shop. the browns had the edge in the overall record between the two teams prior to 99 and it took 4 dramatic events to help the steelers finally surpass the browns in the overall record:

1. the city of cleveland losing the browns.

2. the browns being screwed by the nfl upon it's return into the nfl by not being given an adequate amount of time and money to prepare for the upcoming season (see the book, "false start", by terry pluto.

3. browns owner al lerner dying.

4. an inexperienced (but die-hard browns fan and son of al lerner) randy lerner taking over the team and having to rely on people like butch davis, carmen policy, etc to help him steer the ship.

- randy made his fair share of mistakes, but what novice owner with no experience and no one to give him wise counsel wouldn't? atleast he's spending money trying to correct his mistakes unlike people like mike brown in cincy.

that's why these debates always turn out the same way. most steeler fans have a selective memory and choose to only recognize things that go in their favor. they say the same old crap regardless of what board it is. they even go as far as resorting to attacking people personally with cheap insults and false accusations (that aren't even relevant to the debate) as a means of weaseling out of admitting they're wrong. it's what is to be expected from people who take time out of their day to troll. i think they're rather hillarious, to be honest with you.

all i know is that holmgren is one of the best football minds to be hired by the browns since paul brown and i hope he gets this team back on track so the browns can return to being a dominant force in pro-football.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

LOL... OK Your right I quit . Your skull is thick enough to go out and Block for Quinn with NO Helmet on. LOL. You win ... I quit.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

He is what he was... IF is a Big Word. The Speed of this game is like Lightening vs. the 40`s and 50`s. This isnt even an argument. Your just painting yourselves as delusional.

FREAKofSTEEL08 said:

Full Name: Alexander Arrasi Agase

Position: G/LB

Height: 5' 10'' Weight: 210

Player Bio Top

Full Name: Louis Joseph Rymkus

Position: OT/T

Height: 6' 4'' Weight: 231

Full Name: William K. Willis

(Deacon)

Position: G

Height: 6' 2'' Weight: 213

So he did better with smaller linemen. Imagine how well he could do if he had some of the beastly lineman these QBs have protecting them today.

@flugel said:

I added the 64 Championship Win further down the page to seperate it; and when I add the 57 Championship loss to show the Browns are 8-4 from 1946 to 1964. That's a volume of 4 NFL Titles and 4 AAFC Titles.

Worth noting: Otto Graham was 105-17-4 as a starting QB in Cleveland.

For those desperate enough to question his athleticism - Otto also played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals of the National Basketball League.

- Tom F. (Winning was pretty Otto-matic from 46 through 55)

He played Hoops for One season. I Never said he wasn't athletic for his day. I Played College Hoops (NAIA School very good player at that level) and I could have played in the NBL back then if I had the same skills. It was a different age . Different Era...we are talking about an athlete from the 40`s !!! Come on...The Browns had O-lineman weighing 213 , 231 and 233 to name a few.

Full Name: Alexander Arrasi Agase

Position: G/LB

Height: 5' 10'' Weight: 210

Player Bio Top

Full Name: Louis Joseph Rymkus

Position: OT/T

Height: 6' 4'' Weight: 231

Full Name: William K. Willis

(Deacon)

Position: G

Height: 6' 2'' Weight: 213

FREAKofSTEEL08 said:

Otto 126 114 57-13-1 1464 2626 55.8 23584 174 6.6 135 5.1

Games Record att comp % yrds TD INT

You cant tell me for a second that you believe that the Defenses in 1946-1955 Compared to Todays Defenses. Blazing Speed and Brute Force. Specialization. Lost in the past.

So, if the defenses are so much faster and better, what makes Otto Graham from being faster and better. Sports medicine has come a long way since Graham's heyday. If he was put on the same workout and diet regimen the players are on today, he'd most likely be just as good. People don't evolve into superhumans in a mere 50 years.

Otto 126 114 57-13-1 1464 2626 55.8 23584 174 6.6 135 5.1

Games Record att comp % yrds TD INT

You cant tell me for a second that you believe that the Defenses in 1946-1955 Compared to Todays Defenses. Blazing Speed and Brute Force. Specialization. Lost in the past.

@the-gipper said:

Glad you pointed that out Gipper because I didn't mean to. I just wanted to show 10 straight years of competing in the Championship (with 7 wins in the process). It looks even more impressive when you can put it in a column where every new row depicts 1 more year of a decade.

I added the 64 Championship Win further down the page to seperate it; and when I add the 57 Championship loss to show the Browns are 8-4 from 1946 to 1964. That's a volume of 4 NFL Titles and 4 AAFC Titles.

Worth noting: Otto Graham was 105-17-4 as a starting QB in Cleveland.

For those desperate enough to question his athleticism - Otto also played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals of the National Basketball League.

- Tom F. (Winning was pretty Otto-matic from 46 through 55)

Zombo said:

Face it ... you got nothing. Drew Brees is no better of an "athlete" than Otto Graham ... and he's no bigger either.

Zombo

You have nothing as well... Lost in the past.

Zombo said:

Zombo

Different age ... Todays athletes Stronger and Faster. Its a pretty well know fact. This is not breaking news.

Zombo said:

Graham was just as big, jut as fast, just as much arm, just as much accuracy ... you are making a joke out of yourself.

You think is Drew Brees went back in time 55 years he would rushing for 1,000 yards and monster passing yards?

First of all 1,000 yard rushers were rare in the day ... and non-existent from a quarterback for decades to come.

Also, there were no monster passing numbers back then over the course of a season. Passing games were not as developed. Defensive backs could mug receivers all day ... hit them spear, them, hold them at the LOS ... you could take today's most athletic QB and he would not put up "monster numbers" in the 50's NFL

The linemen were a lot smaller ... but that goes for both sides of the ball. The backs and ends are a lot faster now ... but that goes for both sides of the ball.

If Otto Graham were to play today he would go up against bigger linemen, faster linebackers, and bettter coverage corners and schemes ... but he would also have bigger lineman, stronger RBs, faster receivers, more liberal passing rules and much better offensive schemes. He would be putting up numbers like the smartest, best QBS of today are.

Graham was a great athlete that also won a championship in the NBA. A 6'1 200 lb. QB is a 6'1 200 lb. QB. If he came out of the Big Ten in 2000 with Brees, instead of 1945, he would have grown up in a different era, played a faster game, etc. and he would have thrived in the NFL just like Brees.

Drew Brees and Peyton Manning are not the stars they are because they are some sort of super-human athletes that would have rushed for 1,000 yards over 50's NFL defenses ... they are smart, well-trained, instinctive athletes with great coordination and movement and lots of lots of study in their profession. Which is exactly what Otto Graham was.

Jim Brown would be great in today's NFL. Stan Musial and Hank Aaron would still knock the cover of the ball. Wilt Chamberlain would be a dominating presence. Arnold Plamer would master today's golf courses ... and Otto Graham would be just as good as another Big Ten QB that is the same size and same smarts ... Drew Brees.

Zombo

--Drew's not going to win 7 titles though....

No YOU are making a Joke of yourself. No way would Otto Graham be an elite QB if he was in his prime today. Different Game , Different time. I JUST Heard a couple players today in Fox Sports Radio talking about how the Stars of the 40s and 50s shouldn't be compared to Todays Athletes. Its Just not fair to the Guy from the bygone Era. Was Otto pressed by 300 LB guys running 4.5 40s ? Hell no his BACKS didnt run 4.5s Jim Brown is a RARE Beast like Chamberlin(In Hoops) , that would cross over well. The number is few though. You Actually believe Graham could play and be a Star today ?? I bet you think those Early Browns Teams could win a Title in this Era as well . The 70`s Steelers wouldn't Win Today either. You are hopelessly trapped in a Time Warp. I am NOT Ripping Graham , DIFFERENT Day. I wouldn't Take Bradshaw over Roethlisberger either. This day is full of Better athletes.

@the-gipper said:

The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.

Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.

Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.

+1

@the-gipper said:

I was under the impression that there weren't any blacks in the NFL until like 1948. I may be wrong. I am not disputing you, I simply would like to know it an verify it for my own information, so that I don't make errors of fact of this nature.

I tell you I looked everywhere and they Trickled in from 46 to 1950. Those a few more got jobs , Its seem that very few played AAFC either. The Browns were on the cutting edge.

1946

Kenny Washington, Halfback

Played with San Francisco Clippers (PCPFL) 1944-45. Signed a contract with the Los Angeles Rams on March 21, 1946. Played 1946-48 with the Rams.

Woody Strode, End

Signed a contract with the Los Angeles Rams May 7, 1946. Played with the Rams 1946 only. Played with Calgary Stampeders (WIFU) 1948.

Bill Willis, Guard, Middle Guard

Signed a contract with the Cleveland Browns of the All-America Football Conference on August 6, 1946. Played 1946-53 with the Browns.

Marion Motley, Fullback

Signed a contract with the Cleveland Browns of the All-America Football Conference on August 9, 1946. Played 1946-53 Cleveland Browns, 1955 Pittsburgh Steelers.

Really all I could find so Far. I seen where after The Browns signed a few African Americans some NFL Teams began to look and try out players. The percentages stayed low. But the AAFC didnt have a high number either.

AAFC would tap this talent pool more than the NFL, with 20 black players compared with the NFL’s 7 in 1949.[16] Not exactly a Tidal wave of talent. but thank God they started up .

@the-gipper said:

The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.

Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.

Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.

I knew of that reasoning. Question is after Rehashing it Several times they STILL Dont recognize them. Thats speaks volumes as to what The NFL Thinks of the AAFC. They have had decades to overturn it and have not.