RAC isnt getting fired
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Flugs, I love your posts, but none of the handcuffing we see has anything to do with the poor preparation, game decisions, and downright bad play - that's coaching.
Savage might be pulling some strings, but the HC, if he REALLY believes in a player(s) can decide whether to put that player in. If he is correct, he's kicking the chair out from under the GM because he shows he DOES know what he's doing.
These guys aren't normal people who *need* the job - they actually CAN stand up for their principals because they make so much money, I'd think they would have quite a bit socked away.
Do you think a Cowher (or Marty) would let a GM dictate to him who was going to play and who isn't?
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Great post flug and it does make you wonder but at some point we have to stop starting completely over or we will never win. Somone that is on the inside, namely Lerner, needs to open their damn eyes and see whot he culprit is and fix it.
You mean to tell me Lerner cant go out and get a football guy that knows his shit to run football operations for him. If he doesnt want to pay attention to what goes on here fine, just pay someone to do it for you and someone that gives a shit. It truly falls on Lerner not bringing the right people into the FO.
Great post flug and it does make you wonder but at some point we have to stop starting completely over or we will never win. Somone that is on the inside, namely Lerner, needs to open their damn eyes and see whot he culprit is and fix it.
You mean to tell me Lerner cant go out and get a football guy that knows his shit to run football operations for him. If he doesnt want to pay attention to what goes on here fine, just pay someone to do it for you and someone that gives a shit. It truly falls on Lerner not bringing the right people into the FO.
Thanks bud! In corporate America if one's manager has a set of objectives he/she wants one to work on so the team can achieve their goals - is it easy to defy that?
I bring up our overcommitment to Lewis in 2008 following his payhike to stay means that playing a guy like Harrison instead would be like going against what one's manager in Corporate America is asking of them. When Savage commits payhikes to Northcutt, Davis and Lewis - he's telling his head coach I'm empowering you to make therm work. Where this gets problematic is what IF Savage overrated someone or they no LONGER have what he hoped they'd have? After we gave raises to Orpheus Roye and Leigh Bodden - were they the SAME players or even capable of being the same players? So what does overcommiting to them do for the Head Coach in charge of operatiopn cram square peg into round hole? It makes him the fall guy and scapegoat. Look at the SAME shit Policy did to this franchise choosing Wynn over Brady, Milanovich over Warner, Couch #1 and Brown #1. Chris Palmer got 100% the blame and we didn't dare hold Policy accountable.
People get REALLY pissed if we add any accountability to Savage because they think RAC is such an easy fix. Who gave Todd Granthom a pay raise? And who got burned by it most once we learned what really went on to justify the walking papers?
I'd LOVE it to be as easy changing only 1 symptom of an infection so this franchise is at optimal health and efficiency. Trouble is I'm still looking at these elusive "next year" promises. It took us 4 years to get our first GOOD Nose Tackle BUT he's gettign oxygen on the sidelines udring 50% of our defensive plays because NOBODY behind him can tackle anyone to get us off the field. Of course that's bad coaching but don't tell me D'Qwell Jackson plays with better instincts somewhere else or he'll prefer to hit with his shoulder rather than grabbing ankles. We've brought in countless LBers like Matt Stewart, Nick Speegle, David McMillan, Shantee Orr, Antwaan Peek, Leon Williams and Beau Bell and I'm still looking at a 3-4 with a cavity at LBer. You can't tell me it's ALL bad coaching because these guys are a bunch of stiffs if were being honest. To become a Mike Singletary or Ray Lewis you're gonna have to have some God-given instinct. Marvin Lewis did not MAKE Ray Lewis any more than than Buddy Ryan made Mike Singletary any more than BB made LT. These guys were college football's finest because of the God-givens NOT the coaching. I'm not saying they don't NEED coaching - I'm just saying they're special players. Clay Matthews was the SAME stud he was at USC whether his Head Coach was Sam, Marty, Bud, Bill or whoever.
If Spagnola came here and was told make these stiffs something they're not - we'd be right back where we are today. We HAVE to find BETTER LBers and we need MORE than just Shaun Rodgers up front. We're paying serious cake to Corey Williams and I'm not understanding the rationale to lose draft picks and enormous cap commitment based on what I've seen from him. Sorry folks. When his guys do X-stunts inside - there isn't tiny RBs putting their ILBer on their fannies like Ray Rice did to D'Qwell. The REASON we ONLY try to blitz our DBs off the edge is because our manpower in other places isn't up to snuff. That's inconvenient so I know I'll get an earful.
I coached defense at the high school level right out of college so I KNOW good LBer play when I see it. My job wasn't to MAKE LBers - my job was to have the player I trusted most with the things I taught on the field. I never gave myself credit for the X-factor we had at ILBer. That was all him. I never invented 1 drill that was used before me or one that made a LBer out of anyone. I simply PLAYED the kids I trusted most. When I was hired, I learned they hadn't won a game on the Freshman level in 3 years. My first game we were down 22-0 at half and on the games final play we attempted a 36 yard field goal to break a 22-22 tie but the kick bounced off the upright. We won games that year and the next year we came in second place and beat the undefeated first place team in the process. Truth be told, COACHES didn't win games the KIDS won games. When we're playing Baltimore at we intercept Flacco - the way to make that work isn't to throw an INT to Ray Lewis for a TD and then do the same thing to Ed Reed a little while later. That's not coaching, that's Dumb Ass being Dumb Ass.
I liked Savage's 2007 draft a lot so I think he's learning some things along the way. And as Fooleez reminded me I can't blame Savage for injuries any more than I could blame Butch for Jamir tearing his achilles when we were planning our 2002 defense around his pas rushing strengths. I'd LOVE to see Savage find BETTER LBers (no has-beens please) and a game changing Safety like an Ed Reed or a Sanders or a Pollyneedsahaircut. I know they don't grow on trees BUT wasn't Sanders a second round Safety? Let's get a USC LBer and then a Safety next draft.
- Tom F.
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Flugs, I love your posts, but none of the handcuffing we see has anything to do with the poor preparation, game decisions, and downright bad play - that's coaching.
Savage might be pulling some strings, but the HC, if he REALLY believes in a player(s) can decide whether to put that player in. If he is correct, he's kicking the chair out from under the GM because he shows he DOES know what he's doing.
These guys aren't normal people who *need* the job - they actually CAN stand up for their principals because they make so much money, I'd think they would have quite a bit socked away.
Do you think a Cowher (or Marty) would let a GM dictate to him who was going to play and who isn't?
Flugs, I love your posts, but none of the handcuffing we see has anything to do with the poor preparation, game decisions, and downright bad play - that's coaching.
Agreed BUT that being the case, I wasn't seeing ALOT of people applauding our STs coach for a conference best average starting field position in 2007 NOR did I see people applauding Chud for our offensive explosion. Staying consistent with sayign these guys need praise - don't they deserve SOME criticism when things going bad?
My point is the Coordinators are in charge of time management so if that's a problem - let's blame the RIGHT person. When RAC was NE's DC - did he look like he didn't know how to coach? Why not? He had the RIGHT guys that anyone could coach.
Don't get the impression I'm HAPPY with RAC - I'm just trying to tell people it ain't just 1 symptom nor is there ANY guarantee the next guy is their dream HC. How many more guys are we going to audition?
I'll disgree with ANYONE that a PRO dlinemen that jumps offsides is NOT the coach. If high school kids know not to jump offsides - I can't blame the Head Coach for a PRO player that isn't smart enough to GET it. When we played Cincy, Corey Williams and Little combined for 5 offsides penalties. Now if Shaun Smith and Robaire Smith weren't already injured - we could SIT the dumb party on the bench. Injuries don't allow that so just like I can't blame Savage for injuries - I can't blame the head coach for the hand he's dealt at LBer and dline. Corey Williams sucks and I've seen Richard Seymour succeed when RAC coached him so the difference was the hand he was dealt.
Tedi Bruschi is instinctive while D'Qwell is not. I can't tell you how many INTs I've seen from Bruchi in important games and it's NOT because he's fast or well coached. It's because he's instinctive so changing his position from DE at the college level to ILBer at the pro level was doable. So Bruschi made RAC look like a better coach.
When MD Perry played in the Guard-Center gap - nobody jumped offsides more often than he did. Didn't mean Bud Carson couldn't coach - it just meant Perry wasn't always SMART. Simeon Rice says the BEST coach he every played for is the Head Coach for Detroit Rod Marinelli. Wanna bet there's a city full of Detroit fans that think Marinelli can't coach? And why? The personnel isn't good enough even if he COULD coach to matter.
Do all of Braylon's drops mean bad coaching from Wes Chandler or are they on Braylon? He scored 16 TDs in 2007 with the same coaching right? Head problems are part of innate character.
Do you know what I can't get out of my head? WHY is there only 1 COMPLETE game like we had vrs the NY Giants? That shows me it's on the PLAYERS more than we like to admit. When they're locked in they don't drop important passes or turn the ball over or mismanage clock.
- Tom F. (Football isn't played from the sidelines so you need thr RIGHT guys for the mission. Character is gi-normous to winning and so toughness and intelligence are part of that)
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Again great points and I have to agree you cant make an orange out of an apple. But a coaches job is to get the best out of the talent he has. Take the strength of the guys he has and devolp a game plan that fits his players. These guys do not get to the NFL level with out having any talent. What makes a great coach great is getting the best out of his players and playing to there strengths. I dont see RAC doing that. I see him being bull headed in his game plans, making no adjustments and not playing to our strengths.
So while Savage needs to get some better talent on the field, we also need a coach to maximize the talent thats on the field. You are 100% correct in that we should not be over paying these guys either. A guy usally plays his best in a contract year. Why is that? Because they are playing all out to get that pay check. Well if they have that pay check, What are they playing for?
That comes down to do they love the game. We need to put more of an importance on getting guys that love to play football first and foremost. That is what makes a guy like Cribbs, undrafted but still a great great player. He has heart.
Lets hope like you said, that savage is learning and will continue on having better and better drafts. We cannot keep cleaning out house every 4 years and ever hope to have a good team. We need to get rid of glaring dead weight and move on from there. I think Savage should get one more year to improve and get usa coach in here that not only wants to win but KNOWS HOW TO WIN.
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Good Gosh....sick or not...I can go toe to toe.
It isn't that Romeo is making all the bad decisions....and isn't a part of some of the good ones.....but these player moves are at the insistence of Savage and or Lerner...maybe mostly Lerner.
We just saw Phil send of a childish text message....a sign the pressure is getting to him.
A few weeks ago you and others were ripping Romeo for not playing Quinn...face it man....he didn't make the decision....he was TOLD what to do.
I don't mind some of your "homer" positions on BQ because I knew you could be right and said so all along.....but Romeo?? Come on man.....he is Phil's stooilie....it's why Phil like's him.
I would say the odds are really good Romeo is gone at seasons end, and better than 50/50 Savage is gone as well if we hire a HC who demands what most other coaches have......roster control.....you do know Savage has that control don't you??
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Good Gosh....sick or not...I can go toe to toe.
It isn't that Romeo is making all the bad decisions....and isn't a part of some of the good ones.....but these player moves are at the insistence of Savage and or Lerner...maybe mostly Lerner.
We just saw Phil send of a childish text message....a sign the pressure is getting to him.
A few weeks ago you and others were ripping Romeo for not playing Quinn...face it man....he didn't make the decision....he was TOLD what to do.
I don't mind some of your "homer" positions on BQ because I knew you could be right and said so all along.....but Romeo?? Come on man.....he is Phil's stooilie....it's why Phil like's him.
I would say the odds are really good Romeo is gone at seasons end, and better than 50/50 Savage is gone as well if we hire a HC who demands what most other coaches have......roster control.....you do know Savage has that control don't you??
Good Gosh....sick or not...I can go toe to toe.
It isn't that Romeo is making all the bad decisions....and isn't a part of some of the good ones.....but these player moves are at the insistence of Savage and or Lerner...maybe mostly Lerner.
We just saw Phil send of a childish text message....a sign the pressure is getting to him.
A few weeks ago you and others were ripping Romeo for not playing Quinn...face it man....he didn't make the decision....he was TOLD what to do.
I don't mind some of your "homer" positions on BQ because I knew you could be right and said so all along.....but Romeo?? Come on man.....he is Phil's stooilie....it's why Phil like's him.
I would say the odds are really good Romeo is gone at seasons end, and better than 50/50 Savage is gone as well if we hire a HC who demands what most other coaches have......roster control.....you do know Savage has that control don't you??
Oh really?!?! Seems to me I had quite the discussion piece you refrained from when I posted the topic about holding Savage at least equally accountable with RAC so I'm not sure what your smoking or sniffing today. The REAL truth is a few weeks ago in that Savage thread I started people were telling me I was 100% wrong when I said I thought Savage played a BIG role in who started at QB. I didn't notice your willingness to tell them all you disagreed.
Now, there's quite a few fans thinking it's 100% RAC's fault that Harrison doesn't play more. I feel like I gave a detailed explanation that I thought Savage gave Lewis a hefty raise to stay put in Cleveland as our workorse for 2008. That sure tells me RAC's boss wants to show Lerner WHY he's paying Lewis to be the workhorse so it only makes sense why RAC looks handcuffed on the number of reps he can allott to Harrison.
Along the same lines, I'm sure Lerner would ask WHY Savage felt it was so urgent to re-sign Andra Davis to a hefty raise a couple years ago if we were watching Leon Williams or Beau Bell starting in his place. The detailed explanation of this can also be found scrolling back up.
Again, I'm the guy saying Policy and Savage deserve some degree of accountability so I don't know WHERE or WHy you're grouping me into one of the ones saying or only disease is RAC. RAC's just 1 symptom. What I LIKED being reminded of by some people is that we had a really good 2007 draft so maybe Savage is turning the corner some.
It won't matter WHO our next Head Coach will be if he's not in synch with the guy calling the shots in the personnel dept. Remember Tom Donahoe from Pittsburgh when he and Cowher weren't in synch? Donahoe got his walking papers and ended up in Buffalo where he would get his walking papers again. Cowher would go on to win a Superbowl with a better tag-team between himself and the GM.
When I look at the bigger picture, RAC has already proven he can coach GOOD football players. It's WHY he was hired to come here in the first place. Savage was hired to bring RAC those good football players. I think we've completely whiffed on LBers and this is the FIRST time we've put a legitimate Nose Tackle on the apex of our defense in 4 years. When that Nose Tackle needs oxygen during 50% of our defensive plays - we suck for that HALF the time we play defense. I don't CARE who is coaching that group if they're not good enough to be out there.
When Policy came here - all I heard was "we're gonna run the West Coast offense" but we never got the RIGHT people to execute it. Now it's the 3-4 and I don't see any LBers that LIKE to hit or tackle people. I really wish ALL our problems would be solved if we just fired another head coach because that would mean easy fix. Has it ever been an easy fix?
- Tom F.
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Good Gosh....sick or not...I can go toe to toe.
It isn't that Romeo is making all the bad decisions....and isn't a part of some of the good ones.....but these player moves are at the insistence of Savage and or Lerner...maybe mostly Lerner.
We just saw Phil send of a childish text message....a sign the pressure is getting to him.
A few weeks ago you and others were ripping Romeo for not playing Quinn...face it man....he didn't make the decision....he was TOLD what to do.
I don't mind some of your "homer" positions on BQ because I knew you could be right and said so all along.....but Romeo?? Come on man.....he is Phil's stooilie....it's why Phil like's him.
I would say the odds are really good Romeo is gone at seasons end, and better than 50/50 Savage is gone as well if we hire a HC who demands what most other coaches have......roster control.....you do know Savage has that control don't you??
Oh really?!?! Seems to me I had quite the discussion piece you refrained from when I posted the topic about holding Savage at least equally accountable with RAC so I'm not sure what your smoking or sniffing today. The REAL truth is a few weeks ago in that Savage thread I started people were telling me I was 100% wrong when I said I thought Savage played a BIG role in who started at QB. I didn't notice your willingness to tell them all you disagreed.
Now, there's quite a few fans thinking it's 100% RAC's fault that Harrison doesn't play more. I feel like I gave a detailed explanation that I thought Savage gave Lewis a hefty raise to stay put in Cleveland as our workorse for 2008. That sure tells me RAC's boss wants to show Lerner WHY he's paying Lewis to be the workhorse so it only makes sense why RAC looks handcuffed on the number of reps he can allott to Harrison.
Along the same lines, I'm sure Lerner would ask WHY Savage felt it was so urgent to re-sign Andra Davis to a hefty raise a couple years ago if we were watching Leon Williams or Beau Bell starting in his place. The detailed explanation of this can also be found scrolling back up.
Again, I'm the guy saying Policy and Savage deserve some degree of accountability so I don't know WHERE or WHy you're grouping me into one of the ones saying or only disease is RAC. RAC's just 1 symptom. What I LIKED being reminded of by some people is that we had a really good 2007 draft so maybe Savage is turning the corner some.
It won't matter WHO our next Head Coach will be if he's not in synch with the guy calling the shots in the personnel dept. Remember Tom Donahoe from Pittsburgh when he and Cowher weren't in synch? Donahoe got his walking papers and ended up in Buffalo where he would get his walking papers again. Cowher would go on to win a Superbowl with a better tag-team between himself and the GM.
When I look at the bigger picture, RAC has already proven he can coach GOOD football players. It's WHY he was hired to come here in the first place. Savage was hired to bring RAC those good football players. I think we've completely whiffed on LBers and this is the FIRST time we've put a legitimate Nose Tackle on the apex of our defense in 4 years. When that Nose Tackle needs oxygen during 50% of our defensive plays - we suck for that HALF the time we play defense. I don't CARE who is coaching that group if they're not good enough to be out there.
When Policy came here - all I heard was "we're gonna run the West Coast offense" but we never got the RIGHT people to execute it. Now it's the 3-4 and I don't see any LBers that LIKE to hit or tackle people. I really wish ALL our problems would be solved if we just fired another head coach because that would mean easy fix. Has it ever been an easy fix?
- Tom F.
Oh really?!?! Seems to me I had quite the discussion piece you refrained from when I posted the topic about holding Savage at least equally accountable with RAC so I'm not sure what your smoking or sniffing today. The REAL truth is a few weeks ago in that Savage thread I started people were telling me I was 100% wrong when I said I thought Savage played a BIG role in who started at QB. I didn't notice your willingness to tell them all you disagreed.
Now, there's quite a few fans thinking it's 100% RAC's fault that Harrison doesn't play more. I feel like I gave a detailed explanation that I thought Savage gave Lewis a hefty raise to stay put in Cleveland as our workorse for 2008. That sure tells me RAC's boss wants to show Lerner WHY he's paying Lewis to be the workhorse so it only makes sense why RAC looks handcuffed on the number of reps he can allott to Harrison.
Along the same lines, I'm sure Lerner would ask WHY Savage felt it was so urgent to re-sign Andra Davis to a hefty raise a couple years ago if we were watching Leon Williams or Beau Bell starting in his place. The detailed explanation of this can also be found scrolling back up.
Again, I'm the guy saying Policy and Savage deserve some degree of accountability so I don't know WHERE or WHy you're grouping me into one of the ones saying or only disease is RAC. RAC's just 1 symptom. What I LIKED being reminded of by some people is that we had a really good 2007 draft so maybe Savage is turning the corner some.
It won't matter WHO our next Head Coach will be if he's not in synch with the guy calling the shots in the personnel dept. Remember Tom Donahoe from Pittsburgh when he and Cowher weren't in synch? Donahoe got his walking papers and ended up in Buffalo where he would get his walking papers again. Cowher would go on to win a Superbowl with a better tag-team between himself and the GM.
When I look at the bigger picture, RAC has already proven he can coach GOOD football players. It's WHY he was hired to come here in the first place. Savage was hired to bring RAC those good football players. I think we've completely whiffed on LBers and this is the FIRST time we've put a legitimate Nose Tackle on the apex of our defense in 4 years. When that Nose Tackle needs oxygen during 50% of our defensive plays - we suck for that HALF the time we play defense. I don't CARE who is coaching that group if they're not good enough to be out there.
When Policy came here - all I heard was "we're gonna run the West Coast offense" but we never got the RIGHT people to execute it. Now it's the 3-4 and I don't see any LBers that LIKE to hit or tackle people. I really wish ALL our problems would be solved if we just fired another head coach because that would mean easy fix. Has it ever been an easy fix?
- Tom F.
Well hell lets just fire the lot and start all over.
Lerner should know or find out who the hell the culprit is and take care of it. Fat chance of that happening.
All I want is someone to put a winning team on the field, I could give a rats ass if that means a new GM, Head Coach or both. Just get the damn job done.
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Oh really?!?! Seems to me I had quite the discussion piece you refrained from when I posted the topic about holding Savage at least equally accountable with RAC so I'm not sure what your smoking or sniffing today. The REAL truth is a few weeks ago in that Savage thread I started people were telling me I was 100% wrong when I said I thought Savage played a BIG role in who started at QB. I didn't notice your willingness to tell them all you disagreed.
Now, there's quite a few fans thinking it's 100% RAC's fault that Harrison doesn't play more. I feel like I gave a detailed explanation that I thought Savage gave Lewis a hefty raise to stay put in Cleveland as our workorse for 2008. That sure tells me RAC's boss wants to show Lerner WHY he's paying Lewis to be the workhorse so it only makes sense why RAC looks handcuffed on the number of reps he can allott to Harrison.
Along the same lines, I'm sure Lerner would ask WHY Savage felt it was so urgent to re-sign Andra Davis to a hefty raise a couple years ago if we were watching Leon Williams or Beau Bell starting in his place. The detailed explanation of this can also be found scrolling back up.
Again, I'm the guy saying Policy and Savage deserve some degree of accountability so I don't know WHERE or WHy you're grouping me into one of the ones saying or only disease is RAC. RAC's just 1 symptom. What I LIKED being reminded of by some people is that we had a really good 2007 draft so maybe Savage is turning the corner some.
It won't matter WHO our next Head Coach will be if he's not in synch with the guy calling the shots in the personnel dept. Remember Tom Donahoe from Pittsburgh when he and Cowher weren't in synch? Donahoe got his walking papers and ended up in Buffalo where he would get his walking papers again. Cowher would go on to win a Superbowl with a better tag-team between himself and the GM.
When I look at the bigger picture, RAC has already proven he can coach GOOD football players. It's WHY he was hired to come here in the first place. Savage was hired to bring RAC those good football players. I think we've completely whiffed on LBers and this is the FIRST time we've put a legitimate Nose Tackle on the apex of our defense in 4 years. When that Nose Tackle needs oxygen during 50% of our defensive plays - we suck for that HALF the time we play defense. I don't CARE who is coaching that group if they're not good enough to be out there.
When Policy came here - all I heard was "we're gonna run the West Coast offense" but we never got the RIGHT people to execute it. Now it's the 3-4 and I don't see any LBers that LIKE to hit or tackle people. I really wish ALL our problems would be solved if we just fired another head coach because that would mean easy fix. Has it ever been an easy fix?
- Tom F.
Well hell lets just fire the lot and start all over.
Lerner should know or find out who the hell the culprit is and take care of it. Fat chance of that happening.
All I want is someone to put a winning team on the field, I could give a rats ass if that means a new GM, Head Coach or both. Just get the damn job done.
Well hell lets just fire the lot and start all over.
Lerner should know or find out who the hell the culprit is and take care of it. Fat chance of that happening.
All I want is someone to put a winning team on the field, I could give a rats ass if that means a new GM, Head Coach or both. Just get the damn job done.
LOL! I hear ya bud! Very well put - thank you!
The LAST head coach that had us frequenting playoffs was Marty Schottenheimer. Love him or hate him, he wasn't coming from a talent-rich team elsewhere so there was NO culture shock involved with the challenge of reversing the fortune's of this franchise.
I fall into the hotshot coordinator trap myself. Everytime I get excited thinking about a guy like Spagnola I HAVE to ask myself if his direct Supervisor is going to be as knowledgeable as Tom Coughlin. Perhaps even MORE significant, how does a he coach a bunch of LBers petrified of hitting with a shoulder and a bunch of front 7 guys that confuse "sic em" with "heel boy" or better yet "sit!"
Spagnola has the luxury of picking which GM he will go work for and if they aren't GOOD at getting talent according to his needs - will he consider it fit for him? Money may talk BUT so does history. Let's face it - EVERY head Coach that has left here in recent years had their home phones ringing and family threatened. Meanwhile - NONE of the GMs have made their first mistake.
My brother's goofy friend once said: "Butch, getting a job is a piece of cake. I get hired all the time." The beauty of that sucker is he's never once needed a 2 week notice for ANY of the jobs he lost in the process. Another gem from the same knucklehead was: "Quitting smoking is easy - I've done it 1000 times." Being at a total loss for words in the reply all I could muster out was God bless ya! Best one ever: "Do you know what I told the sweat in my last interview when he asked so where do you see yourself in 5 years? Let's put it this way, you'll be fetching my coffee." What do you want - he's a Steeler fan.
- Tom F.
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