Kiper confirms the Browns' linebacker needs
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Not sure I buy the whole SILB/WILB distinction with regards to physical traits and draft value. If you watch film of the Jets defense last year, Eric Barton started at SILB but played WILB almost half of the time. And before James Farrior signed a contract extension, the Steelers planned to move WILB Larry Foote to SILB, opening up the WILB spot for Lawrence Timmons.
And I think we're starting to see an evolution in the 3-4 in which the big, blocker-absorbing SILB's are being replaced by guys who are both strong and athletic. Look at how few Levon Kirkland types are starting around the league. Instead, you have guys like Mayo starting at SILB. You've got guys like Bradie James putting up ridiculous stats (116 TT, 8 sacks, 6 TFL's) from the SILB spot, and you can read reports that Rob Ryan desperately wants to bring in Bart Scott to complete the Jets' defense. They'd have a 2nd rounder in Harris and an expensive FA playing inside in their 3-4: not all that dissimilar from having Jackson & Curry manning the middle
And as more and more teams use rocked up receivers as TE's, you're going to see coverage ability become even more of an emphasis when focusing on LB play. While a guy like Eric Barton came off the field on passing downs, you'd likely see Curry stay on the field over D'Qwell Jackson; that gives Curry way more value than what a Levon Kirkland or Eric Alexander will give you.
Aloysius said:
Not sure I buy the whole SILB/WILB distinction with regards to physical traits and draft value. If you watch film of the Jets defense last year, Eric Barton started at SILB but played WILB almost half of the time. And before James Farrior signed a contract extension, the Steelers planned to move WILB Larry Foote to SILB, opening up the WILB spot for Lawrence Timmons.And I think we're starting to see an evolution in the 3-4 in which the big, blocker-absorbing SILB's are being replaced by guys who are both strong and athletic. Look at how few Levon Kirkland types are starting around the league. Instead, you have guys like Mayo starting at SILB. You've got guys like Bradie James putting up ridiculous stats (116 TT, 8 sacks, 6 TFL's) from the SILB spot, and you can read reports that Rob Ryan desperately wants to bring in Bart Scott to complete the Jets' defense. They'd have a 2nd rounder in Harris and an expensive FA playing inside in their 3-4: not all that dissimilar from having Jackson & Curry manning the middle
And as more and more teams use rocked up receivers as TE's, you're going to see coverage ability become even more of an emphasis when focusing on LB play. While a guy like Eric Barton came off the field on passing downs, you'd likely see Curry stay on the field over D'Qwell Jackson; that gives Curry way more value than what a Levon Kirkland or Eric Alexander will give you.
Actually, Barton played the WILB as a rule, but with the athleticism of Harris, they would roll instead of switch with motion and off sets. Effectively they played more of a right-left vs. strong-weak. Barton is not a true WILB. But there was no way Mangini was going to put a rookie in the pilot's chair of that defense. That position has too much riding on it.
The Steelers is a different defensive approach altogether. Foote is the predominant Ted, they just don't line it up that way. In fact, more often than not, they line it up backwards... Hell half of what LeBeau does is backwards... but who am I to criticize a guy with a pair of Super Bowl rings. The ludicrous combinations of twists and stunts that are thrown at the line of scrimmage have little to do with who lines up where. Larry's job is to crack heads in the phone booth, and Farrior cleans up.
I don't deny that there is a bit of a move away from the stereotypical strong and weak backers... but here's the problem in Cleveland... D'Qwell Jackson cannot be working a ted technique on your defense. Although he's bulked up a bit, he's still way too small. Size-wise, he's an inch short of being a prototypical strong safety. So while the defensive philosophy may be evolving league-wide, the Browns defense is still centered around a prototypical weak side linebacker. He's going to continue to need an enforcer to eat up guards and fullbacks.
I'm not saying that the Browns can't use a guy like Curry. He just doesn't fill a need. He may make them better, but you still need another inside linebacker if you're going to get the full use of his talents. You either need two linebackers in that mold, or a true strong and a true weak. And I'm not sure the Browns are in a position right now to make the full adjustment here.
-jj
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@ jason: you're completely right that english faced the weakest competition out of all the prospects in this draft, but that's why i qualified picking him with the dreaded term 'potential.' he'll have a ways to go learning how to play in the NFL, no doubt, but i've really liked what i've seen from him. it's more a personal preference and opinion than anything else.
if you want a more polished prospect, the debate, to me, is brown vs. orakpo, and if we're talking about bodies of work, orakpo's is, to me, more impressive than what brown has done.
here's orakpo's 2008:
vs FAU: three tackles, a TFL and three pressures
UTEP: five tackles, two sacks and three pressures
rice: five tackes, two sacks, two pressures, two PBD and a forced fumble
arkansas: four tackles, two sacks, three TFL, a pressure and a forced fumble
colorado: two tackles and five pressures
oklahoma (#1 at the time): seven tackles, two sacks, four TFL, two pressures and a forced fumble
missouri (#11 at the time): a tackle and three pressures, one of which forced an INT
oklahoma state (#7 at the time): six tackles, a sack, two TFL and two pressures
texas tech (#6 at the time): two tackles, a TFL and two pressures, injured knee, DNP 2nd half
baylor: DNP
kansas: played very little
texas A&M: five tackles, 1.5 sacks, three TFL, four pressures and a forced fumble
ohio state (#10 at the time): two tackles, three pressures and a sack
he's consistent, which is great to have in a pass rusher, and played well in every game. some of that you can attribute to the talent around him, but he still made the plays when he could even though teams knew he was someone they had to stop.
you're also right about filling the position with a free agent and then going after a pass rusher in the draft, though i think having curry is a long-term solution and would give us two great ILBs. i also don't think there's a pass rusher in the draft who's got equal value or will have a comparable impact to what curry can do for this defense.
one thing i'd like to know is if you have a favorite pass rusher/defensive player in this draft. i'm interested in collecting opinions.
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Dacaddyman said:
I agree. Stop the run FIRST. Then set Wimbley,Hall and whatever pass-rusher we get in the later rounds loose on them when they have to pass.Can we stop with the Wimbley and Hall stuff, what has Wimbley done as a pass rusher the last 2 years, the guy as one move and the leage has figured him out you can start calling him a BUST
Alex Hall had like a 3 game stretch where he looked good and then not much the remainder of the year, and we are talking about a 7th round pick with lots to learn.
We have no proven pass rushers on this roster
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@ jason: you're completely right that english faced the weakest competition out of all the prospects in this draft, but that's why i qualified picking him with the dreaded term 'potential.' he'll have a ways to go learning how to play in the NFL, no doubt, but i've really liked what i've seen from him. it's more a personal preference and opinion than anything else.
if you want a more polished prospect, the debate, to me, is brown vs. orakpo, and if we're talking about bodies of work, orakpo's is, to me, more impressive than what brown has done.
here's orakpo's 2008:
vs FAU: three tackles, a TFL and three pressures
UTEP: five tackles, two sacks and three pressures
rice: five tackes, two sacks, two pressures, two PBD and a forced fumble
arkansas: four tackles, two sacks, three TFL, a pressure and a forced fumble
colorado: two tackles and five pressures
oklahoma (#1 at the time): seven tackles, two sacks, four TFL, two pressures and a forced fumble
missouri (#11 at the time): a tackle and three pressures, one of which forced an INT
oklahoma state (#7 at the time): six tackles, a sack, two TFL and two pressures
texas tech (#6 at the time): two tackles, a TFL and two pressures, injured knee, DNP 2nd half
baylor: DNP
kansas: played very little
texas A&M: five tackles, 1.5 sacks, three TFL, four pressures and a forced fumble
ohio state (#10 at the time): two tackles, three pressures and a sack
he's consistent, which is great to have in a pass rusher, and played well in every game. some of that you can attribute to the talent around him, but he still made the plays when he could even though teams knew he was someone they had to stop.
you're also right about filling the position with a free agent and then going after a pass rusher in the draft, though i think having curry is a long-term solution and would give us two great ILBs. i also don't think there's a pass rusher in the draft who's got equal value or will have a comparable impact to what curry can do for this defense.
one thing i'd like to know is if you have a favorite pass rusher/defensive player in this draft. i'm interested in collecting opinions.
one thing i'd like to know is if you have a favorite pass rusher/defensive player in this draft. i'm interested in collecting opinions.
If i had a favorite defensive player in the draft, I'd say it's Malcolm Jenkins. He's got the best recognition skills of any prospect in the draft (probably the last couple). I actually think he projects better at safety... but he can go to work as a rookie CB, and you can get every dollar of a 6 year deal out of him.
As far as pass rushers go... I like Brown over Orakpo, but only by a hair... and only because Sergio Kindle decided to return to Texas, and Carlos Dunlap is only a sophomore.
-jj
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Aloysius said:
Not sure I buy the whole SILB/WILB distinction with regards to physical traits and draft value. If you watch film of the Jets defense last year, Eric Barton started at SILB but played WILB almost half of the time. And before James Farrior signed a contract extension, the Steelers planned to move WILB Larry Foote to SILB, opening up the WILB spot for Lawrence Timmons.And I think we're starting to see an evolution in the 3-4 in which the big, blocker-absorbing SILB's are being replaced by guys who are both strong and athletic. Look at how few Levon Kirkland types are starting around the league. Instead, you have guys like Mayo starting at SILB. You've got guys like Bradie James putting up ridiculous stats (116 TT, 8 sacks, 6 TFL's) from the SILB spot, and you can read reports that Rob Ryan desperately wants to bring in Bart Scott to complete the Jets' defense. They'd have a 2nd rounder in Harris and an expensive FA playing inside in their 3-4: not all that dissimilar from having Jackson & Curry manning the middle
And as more and more teams use rocked up receivers as TE's, you're going to see coverage ability become even more of an emphasis when focusing on LB play. While a guy like Eric Barton came off the field on passing downs, you'd likely see Curry stay on the field over D'Qwell Jackson; that gives Curry way more value than what a Levon Kirkland or Eric Alexander will give you.
Actually, Barton played the WILB as a rule, but with the athleticism of Harris, they would roll instead of switch with motion and off sets. Effectively they played more of a right-left vs. strong-weak. Barton is not a true WILB. But there was no way Mangini was going to put a rookie in the pilot's chair of that defense. That position has too much riding on it.
The Steelers is a different defensive approach altogether. Foote is the predominant Ted, they just don't line it up that way. In fact, more often than not, they line it up backwards... Hell half of what LeBeau does is backwards... but who am I to criticize a guy with a pair of Super Bowl rings. The ludicrous combinations of twists and stunts that are thrown at the line of scrimmage have little to do with who lines up where. Larry's job is to crack heads in the phone booth, and Farrior cleans up.
I don't deny that there is a bit of a move away from the stereotypical strong and weak backers... but here's the problem in Cleveland... D'Qwell Jackson cannot be working a ted technique on your defense. Although he's bulked up a bit, he's still way too small. Size-wise, he's an inch short of being a prototypical strong safety. So while the defensive philosophy may be evolving league-wide, the Browns defense is still centered around a prototypical weak side linebacker. He's going to continue to need an enforcer to eat up guards and fullbacks.
I'm not saying that the Browns can't use a guy like Curry. He just doesn't fill a need. He may make them better, but you still need another inside linebacker if you're going to get the full use of his talents. You either need two linebackers in that mold, or a true strong and a true weak. And I'm not sure the Browns are in a position right now to make the full adjustment here.
-jj
Actually, Barton played the WILB as a rule, but with the athleticism of Harris, they would roll instead of switch with motion and off sets. Effectively they played more of a right-left vs. strong-weak. Barton is not a true WILB. But there was no way Mangini was going to put a rookie in the pilot's chair of that defense. That position has too much riding on it.
The Steelers is a different defensive approach altogether. Foote is the predominant Ted, they just don't line it up that way. In fact, more often than not, they line it up backwards... Hell half of what LeBeau does is backwards... but who am I to criticize a guy with a pair of Super Bowl rings. The ludicrous combinations of twists and stunts that are thrown at the line of scrimmage have little to do with who lines up where. Larry's job is to crack heads in the phone booth, and Farrior cleans up.
I don't deny that there is a bit of a move away from the stereotypical strong and weak backers... but here's the problem in Cleveland... D'Qwell Jackson cannot be working a ted technique on your defense. Although he's bulked up a bit, he's still way too small. Size-wise, he's an inch short of being a prototypical strong safety. So while the defensive philosophy may be evolving league-wide, the Browns defense is still centered around a prototypical weak side linebacker. He's going to continue to need an enforcer to eat up guards and fullbacks.
I'm not saying that the Browns can't use a guy like Curry. He just doesn't fill a need. He may make them better, but you still need another inside linebacker if you're going to get the full use of his talents. You either need two linebackers in that mold, or a true strong and a true weak. And I'm not sure the Browns are in a position right now to make the full adjustment here.
-jj
Thanks for the response. No surprise - there's some great stuff here.
About Barton: I'm pretty sure he played more of a WILB role when David Bowens was subbing for Harris, but you're probably right about the Harris-Barton tandem. Still, I don't think he's a natural SILB, which is only an even bigger concern if we sign him. Using your lead blocker analogy, Harris is a big back who can make plays despite getting knocked around a little. DQ, by contrast, is adept at avoiding blockers, but Barton isn't going to crack heads & keep him clean. He may be a decent insurance option in case Curry's not available, but he's not good enough to justify passing on him.
And about the Steelers'
if Foote's the lead blocker and Farrior's the cleaner-upper, who's going be the tough guy when Farrior & Timmons are the two inside guys next year? As you said, their system is different, but aren't they too going with a team of inside guys who are both playmaking types, like the Jets are said to be planning on doing with Scott & Harris? -
Karlos Dansby, OLB UFA, Arizona Cardinals (Height: 6-4 Weight: 250 Age: 27) would solve a lot of problems and may come cheaper than Barton or a Suggs.
If we could make a move on Dansby that could open up the draft for us to get Jenkins from Ohio State.
Dansby is becoming a consistent linebacker in the NFL. In his last four full seasons, he has tackle totals of 89, 82, 99, and 119 this season. He has also tallied at least three sacks in each of his five seasons as a pro. His three interceptions last season tied a career high and he added two more this season. In โ08, he was an important part of a defense that helped the Cardinals advance in the playoffs. He isnโt in the same class as some of the linebackers on this list, but he may eventually be pretty close. Dansby will appeal to several teams because of his age, size, and potential.
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Dacaddyman said:
I think we can get more sacks out of Wimbley and Hall if they do a better job of masking where the pressure is coming from or maybe moving them around before the snap. Better schemes would result in more sacks.Something can be said for scheming. It may help the overall sack totals of the team, but I don't think it's wise to assume that Hall and Wimbley will be putting up double digit sack totals.
If we can get instant pass rushing from the draft, I say we take it. Wimbley has one move, the speed move (or as many fans like to call it...the shoulder dip). No rip technique, no swim move, and no bull rush. Going in to the 2006 Draft, I thought Wimbley was the better choice over Manny Lawson. Lawson is a pure speed guy, with nothing else in his repertoire, neither. Although fans around the league haven't heard Wimbley's name since after his rookie year, noone has heard of Lawson since the draft. It turns out that they are somewhat similar due to the fact that they only have one speed move and no power moves.
We need a pass rusher with more than just one move. The 2009 Draft is a great opportunity to get him. It would be nice to find someone who already weighs 255+, instead of forcing someone to bulk up from 240. Wimbley looks like he has the frame to add another 5 - 10 pounds, which might give him the ability to add a power move or two to his arsenal.
-Al
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