Run defense - player breakout/ratings
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Ok....in "trying" to understand Pettines defense, Ive watched and watched and watched.....and, lemme tell ya, dude mixes it up....but here are a few things I have concluded, that differentiate it from your traditional 3-4 or 4-3 defense....
a) I think it is designed to accomplish 2 basic things......stop the pass first......and not allow any long plays.....thats it.
It is very aggressive upfront and at the top....but the middle(LB zone) is free.....so, our goal is to get the QB and/or shut down the receiving corp....but we do let them have the short pass or run.....but never let them have the long pass or game breaker run....c) almost all our defensive sets are based upon the Nickle or Dime.....every single one.....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
4-2-5 nickle appears to be our base set(easily Pettines favorite core set).....and Pettine uses it against the run over and over and over again....(Im gonna guess we use a variation of this on 80% of our plays)(with mixed up personnel and position changes, but it all ends up the same)....
In this "most common" set, we have a 5 man line...backed by 2 MLB's(one of whom will usually take the RB or TE....leaving just one LB to protect against the run)(and the 4 DB's spacing the field to prevent to "long play").....so, in this set, it's really that 5 man line being asked to attack and stop the run(or hurry the QB).....the MLB 's are just clean up....
He also uses what looks like a 3-3-5 nickle, but then drops/adds guys on the fly...and they do this a lot, where they line up in a standard 3-3-5 nickle, but at the snap, they will drop or send LBs to really end up playing a much more aggressive set....out of this set they will do the following...
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)....(and I will predict that IF we ge a monster pass rusher and increase our sack rate, then our INT rate will drop on a similar scale)(IE...qb's on the ground cant throw)....but, again, if the O chooses to run and they get past that front, then there is no one there.....
Gotta say I saw very little "traditional" type sets....at least in the middle( and with the LBs)...but I did see a lot of people switching roles and going the opposite direction you'd think they should.....
Examples would be Whitner coming up and playing the LB, while Mingo or Dansby take a pasing route....and it often looks like they are going the wrong way at the snap, but ends up being a switch....(and I think it confuses QB's who think they know where the MLB or SS "should be" )....
I also saw a lot of run responsibility placed upon the CB/S in these sets....and some weird switch ups there too.....Example would be having 6 DB's in, with 1 or 2 covering the slot or TE.....then switching up and attacking the line DB's, while covering the slot and TE with your LB's....and again, in a run situation, the LB's are not the primary stoppers here....
So....4-2-5.....3-3-5.....4-1-6.......are really the bulk of what Pettine is doing. Almost every defensive set comes from these basics. He's just playing the pass first (always) (in a pass happy league)...and giving them the short stuff, but rarely if ever the big play.
I prefer that to Horton, who gambled allowing them the big O play against us making the big D play....
Nice job with all that about Pettine Mud. Looking forward to your Pettine's crazy alignments. One of my fave alignment/adjustments was when he tightened up the splits on the interior of the DLINE (kicking the 5 techniques in much closer to NT) to stout up vrs the run. LOVED that. The only head scratcher was putting the cement shoes of Phil Taylor outside. On top of that, if he has to chase 1 guy more than a few yards on any play - he's sucking gas and worthless the next few plays. If he was playing through or around an injury - even more reason to question why he was wanted outside unless our volume of injuries gave us no other choice.
FWIW, just in the 2 minute video link I shared - Kruges chased a lot of action right into Sheard's hands too. I really liked what I saw from him overall in 2014 so that was why I wondered what criteria PFF took into account when rating 34 OLBers vrs the run.
Interesting point about the conventional practices. I liked how they started to find better ways to use Mingo. I saw a delayed X-stunt where he lined up at his OLBer spot and attacked the offense virtually untouched through the Guard-Center gap. Great design and disguise for a guy that can close like that.
I gotta admit I was kind of tough on Mingo early on because he was a first round draft pick. A few things I never have to worry about with him though are:
1) Relentless hustle (although sometimes it's to the extent of overpursuit that experience can conquer)
2) Coachability (I think how they used him defending the pass at times exemplifies this - I like the idea of getting his wing span and speed in coverage/zones0
3) Toughness. (Played through a painful shoulder injury)
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
CF4L, re-watch this game if you'd like to see:
1) Dansby flying all over the place making plays
2) Our D line being man handled
3) The second level flooded with offensive linemen on run plays
And, fluges, Im getting there with Mingo too. He looks MUCH better on the second or third looks, than he did initially. Plus, now I have a better feel for what he was sup[posed to be doing, and he seems to do hs job......and, yes, he is guilty of being fast and over shooting the target.....but I like the motor and talent....he'll figure out the tackling part eventually....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
So if we get over roster designation "hang-ups", then in essence we play a good deal of 5-2-4 and/ or 5-1-5?
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)...
Your accounting is now making my head hurt... 2 MLBs in a 4-1-6?
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
Any sense that hesitation attributable to thinking about assignments played a role here?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
So if we get over roster designation "hang-ups", then in essence we play a good deal of 5-2-4 and/ or 5-1-5?
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)...
Your accounting is now making my head hurt... 2 MLBs in a 4-1-6?
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
Any sense that hesitation attributable to thinking about assignments played a role here?
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
So if we get over roster designation "hang-ups", then in essence we play a good deal of 5-2-4 and/ or 5-1-5?...Yep. Just gotta stop calling some of those guys LB's.....
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)...
Your accounting is now making my head hurt... 2 MLBs in a 4-1-6? ...Ah, this goes with the 3-3-5 paragraph.....meaning they show 3-3-5 but morph into 4-1-6 by reassigning 2 LB's......(go back and read both and it makes sense)....
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Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
Any sense that hesitation attributable to thinking about assignments played a role here?...I think so, but not 100% with the DL. Very little time to assess each one, as I've focused more on LB's and the overall alignments. But Id say in the first block of games they all look a little lost if yer asking me. And I cant say I ever saw them get comfortable, even tho they did get better thru the middle part of the season....my take is more that they started making adjustments to get better, as opposed to just settling in to the new system and playing better....
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good job with this, but I have to say I don't like it. Not one bit. I get it, it's a passing league blah blah blah....but we saw last year how a promising season got nerfed by awful run defense. And they stopped that 5 man front somewhere mid season didn't they? I distinctly remember seeing this two DL and two standing OLB'ers most of the season. I dislike that as well.
We need to find another Khalil Mack is basically what i'm saying, shouldn't be too difficult right? lol
They did start to stand Sheard & Kruger up more....but they still seemed committed to the rush and very rarely, if ever, dropped back or stunted....
At the same time, they also started bring Whitner up a lot more...but I haven't got all my notes sorted on era 2 yet(which was the period when we had it right and were stopping the run real well for 6-7 games)...Ill try to get it up tomorrow .......
And Im with you....Mack, Kuechly and guys like that are great....but uber rare and very much the exception....most teams gotta make hay with who they got and just try to exploit the one or 2 tools their LB's might have.....
With Pettine....Ill give it another year to see where it goes....for a while his system looked terrible, then it looked great, then it looked terrible again.....but based upon his track record, I think he'll get it sorted out.....
And in the end, we are #1 against the pass and the #9 scoring D, so I think any improvement in the run D will help a lot....
They did start to stand Sheard & Kruger up more....but they still seemed committed to the rush and very rarely, if ever, dropped back or stunted....
At the same time, they also started bring Whitner up a lot more...but I haven't got all my notes sorted on era 2 yet(which was the period when we had it right and were stopping the run real well for 6-7 games)...Ill try to get it up tomorrow .......
And Im with you....Mack, Kuechly and guys like that are great....but uber rare and very much the exception....most teams gotta make hay with who they got and just try to exploit the one or 2 tools their LB's might have.....
With Pettine....Ill give it another year to see where it goes....for a while his system looked terrible, then it looked great, then it looked terrible again.....but based upon his track record, I think he'll get it sorted out.....
And in the end, we are #1 against the pass and the #9 scoring D, so I think any improvement in the run D will help a lot....
we were really #1 pass defense? did not know that. I knew we were pretty good. Really shows how that awful run defense choked our overall defensive standing. Has it ever happened that the #1 pass defense was the absolute worst run defense as well?
also, is that all-22 available to everyone or do you have to pay the NFL network?
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They did start to stand Sheard & Kruger up more....but they still seemed committed to the rush and very rarely, if ever, dropped back or stunted....
At the same time, they also started bring Whitner up a lot more...but I haven't got all my notes sorted on era 2 yet(which was the period when we had it right and were stopping the run real well for 6-7 games)...Ill try to get it up tomorrow .......
And Im with you....Mack, Kuechly and guys like that are great....but uber rare and very much the exception....most teams gotta make hay with who they got and just try to exploit the one or 2 tools their LB's might have.....
With Pettine....Ill give it another year to see where it goes....for a while his system looked terrible, then it looked great, then it looked terrible again.....but based upon his track record, I think he'll get it sorted out.....
And in the end, we are #1 against the pass and the #9 scoring D, so I think any improvement in the run D will help a lot....
we were really #1 pass defense? did not know that. I knew we were pretty good. Really shows how that awful run defense choked our overall defensive standing. Has it ever happened that the #1 pass defense was the absolute worst run defense as well?
also, is that all-22 available to everyone or do you have to pay the NFL network?
we were really #1 pass defense? did not know that. I knew we were pretty good. Really shows how that awful run defense choked our overall defensive standing. Has it ever happened that the #1 pass defense was the absolute worst run defense as well?
also, is that all-22 available to everyone or do you have to pay the NFL network?
Yep...and I think next year we will be off the hook....
And yeah, the run D really hurt....and things got worse, because why pass against the #1D when you can just run....right?.....so they passed less(which made our DB's look even better) and ran more, which piled onto the weak run D #'s.....
HEY...maybe if our DB's weren't so good, theyd run less?.....THATS IT!....its our DB's fault for being too good....bass turds
Oh yeah...and a slice of truth for you, which you wont like, but the pass D gets extra guys from Pettine cause they add a DB and DL(both at the expense of LB) almost all the time....which enhances our pass D, but leaves gaps in the run D.....
and, yes, you have to subscribe for the all 22's....worth it only if you're a geek(like me)....
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