Browns' offensive line - best in the NFL
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Maybe a bit off topic from your excellent point and post, but I doubt we sign Bitonio.
First is his age. He is a bit old from the standard, but that doesn't mean the standard can't be adjusted as required. Bitonio plays a position they typically enjoys longer career, unlike a RB as an example. It's not unusual to see O-linemen playing well in to their late 30's.
I think more on point will be a function of money. The timing on Bitonio is a bit off. By that I mean we have a QB and running back to sign, and a younger guard in Teller to sign. Even with a expanding cap, I am not sure we can get him fit in to the cap pie. I didn't mention that depending on how he plays, we may even want to ty to fit Clowney in to that pie.
We might find a creative way, or maybe Bitonio is willing to sign a undervalued contract to stay in Cleveland, but I'd say the chances are pretty low that happens.
I don't like it, but we have a good team now and good teams lose good players all the time because of money allocation issues. teams have to weigh out who they would rather keep and who needs to go to keep that player. If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.
The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.
To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer.
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If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.
The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.
To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer.
On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.
The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.
To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer.
I don't disagree. I almost said some of the same things. I think Tellers play will determine that question as well.
Two points...Is Teller injury prone, or did he get injured? There is a difference. The other point is for Offensive linemen, "fluke" good years out of young players is pretty rare. It's hard to "luck" into good blocks, so I don't think what we saw is some one and done so to speak....yes, I know you didn't say that. I just felt that needed to be added.
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The two players just aren't identical. Teller is a passpro liability; Bito is the best passblocking OG in the league.
It's harder to become good at passpro later in your career after not doing it for your career's first multiple years.. when all players are their most athletic.
If I have to choose, I'm taking Bito because he's very good at both run&pass. Everyone else on the OL [even Wills] is a top-tier passblocker; Teller simply isn't and so I think Bito gets resigned.
Don't get me wrong: They very well could restructure people [or not resign Hubbard if they're comfortable with the progress of the guys making under 1m as the backups, etc] and get the younger Teller for 7,8/yr and the same for a re-upping for Bito after 2022. But if the question is one and only one player, for me that has to be Bito.. he retires as a Brown.
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Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021. It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section. Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone. [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]
If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..
Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021. It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section. Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone. [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]
If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..
Wills is a rewind from here...
Teller's passing footwork does become a issue vs blitz & speed rush..Power he's a Taz on wheels.. OL-men on NFL pass-pro islands aren't all Joe Thomas's either.. But as this tape^^ shows? Were not bad playing as a OL *unit.. Watch where Tretter's eyes go to help side(2:36)... Watch Teller's pull during Tretter's breakdown ?
Teller knows he not a finished product from a Callahan link...
“He stayed on my butt. He has made sure that I know that I have a lot to work at and a lot to improve.”
Berry can't pay top guard money to a guard that struggles in pass blocking... But he does have 17 more games to watch ?..and a trade deadline, November. At 4 pm on November 2 all trading for the 2021 season will stop. Which happens to fall after Zona/Denver/Pittsburgh
needless to say...It's a huge contract season for Wyatt Teller
and Go big...VT Hokie!
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Maybe a bit off topic from your excellent point and post, but I doubt we sign Bitonio.
First is his age. He is a bit old from the standard, but that doesn't mean the standard can't be adjusted as required. Bitonio plays a position they typically enjoys longer career, unlike a RB as an example. It's not unusual to see O-linemen playing well in to their late 30's.
I think more on point will be a function of money. The timing on Bitonio is a bit off. By that I mean we have a QB and running back to sign, and a younger guard in Teller to sign. Even with a expanding cap, I am not sure we can get him fit in to the cap pie. I didn't mention that depending on how he plays, we may even want to ty to fit Clowney in to that pie.
We might find a creative way, or maybe Bitonio is willing to sign a undervalued contract to stay in Cleveland, but I'd say the chances are pretty low that happens.
I don't like it, but we have a good team now and good teams lose good players all the time because of money allocation issues. teams have to weigh out who they would rather keep and who needs to go to keep that player. If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
Today? Bito...
One year from today? Dunno...
Point being Teller needs to prove that 2020 was not a fluke.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Today? Bito...
One year from today? Dunno...
Point being Teller needs to prove that 2020 was not a fluke.
My question was more for after this season.
I also discount flukes for offensive linemen. To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks. I am sure it has happened, but you usually don't see O-linemen regress a whole lot after they have played well except for injury or age catches up. I keep Teller if it has to be one or the other.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
I'd rather see Tretter start for this season...
https://www.brownsnation.com/why-nick-harris-has-potential-to-start-in-2022/
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Today? Bito...
One year from today? Dunno...
Point being Teller needs to prove that 2020 was not a fluke.
My question was more for after this season.
I also discount flukes for offensive linemen. To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks. I am sure it has happened, but you usually don't see O-linemen regress a whole lot after they have played well except for injury or age catches up. I keep Teller if it has to be one or the other.
My question was more for after this season.
I also discount flukes for offensive linemen. To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks. I am sure it has happened, but you usually don't see O-linemen regress a whole lot after they have played well except for injury or age catches up. I keep Teller if it has to be one or the other.
I agree here...he also dealt with a calf injury...player regression probably more common in scenario where a guy isn’t 100%. He may not have been 100% before or after that injury. I guess it is fair to say if he’s healthier this year he could have a better season. He destroyed some Dlineman and backers pulling this past year. Fans don’t like it, but you have to see what the guy wants unless you are a cornerstone player at a position like QB/LT/DE we may not pay him even he’s great again this coming year
I think you let Bitonio’s contract play out too he’s under a team friendly two year deal (left) at 10M per. 2023 he’s 32 and you make a choice at that point and maybe you’ve drafted a guy next season that competes for the spot in 2023.
We could conceivably have 16 drafted rookies in 2021 and 2022 that will need to fill some of these holes.
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Today? Bito...
One year from today? Dunno...
Point being Teller needs to prove that 2020 was not a fluke.
My question was more for after this season.
I also discount flukes for offensive linemen. To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks. I am sure it has happened, but you usually don't see O-linemen regress a whole lot after they have played well except for injury or age catches up. I keep Teller if it has to be one or the other.
I also discount flukes for offensive linemen. To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks.
The timing of your "Who do you" question, asked in the here and now, was not clear to me.
As for OL fluking... Points taken, but you have to agree that where Bito has "done it" year after year, Teller's 2020 performance was atypical of his previously undistinguished career. So let me me put "outlier" in place of "fluke".
Since his circumstances, i.e., who flanks him, coaches him, etc. will be the same in 2021, it's reasonable to expect the continuation of the success he enjoyed last season. But it's unreasonable to assume it... and to choose Teller now, would entail that big assumption.
Teller thrived sandwiched between two very highly regarded vets. Bito got the rookie OT who flipped sides in his jump to the NFL. So I stick with Bito... the OG who I know is good enough to make those around him better.
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And your points taken.
I guess it boils down to this for me. I am less likely to think what we saw in Teller was an outlier. He was a 5th round pick, and started 5-6 games for Buffalo as a rookie. I assume the starts were as a injury fill in, but i am not sure. I didn't want to do a deep dive in to the specifics. I am pretty sure he didn't win the job out of camp, then lost the job mid way. I only bring up his draft position to highlight that the 5th round is right in the wheelhouse of where the top interior linemen usually are selected. No doubt you have a few cream guys like the guy in Indy who go higher(can't think of his name), but the 5th at least demonstrates he was a highly thought of guard prospect, for what that is worth.
Indeed, being between two solid players was/is a big help. My thinking is that at least a good portion of that comes on the mental side and not actual physical help. That is experience he now has and can carry with him as his career moves forward.
I guess the bottom line is I don't see any way we will be able to maintain keeping both players moving forward. There is a cap pie and I don't see the two guard positions holding as large of a share as it is going to take. I won't totally rule that out, but I don't see it as a high chance. That said, I just go with the younger and cheaper player. Teller will more or less move in to a salary structure currently held by Bitonio (+ inflation) and Bitonio move up from there because he isn't all that old for a O-lineman. You see many still playing well past their mid 30's so there is no reason to believe he can't play at the top of his game for another 2-3 seasons or more.
If we weren't in a SuperBowl window, I'd even think about trading Bitionio at some point later in camp if I saw a guy like Hudson showing enough in camp and preseason games to make me think he could work out to at least a adequate degree. I'll even go so far as to say we might see that happen. A small, small chance at this point, but if we see Hudson or someone getting some 1st team looks in practice and games, it's because some team is talking to Berry about the possibilities. Yes, Hudson was a tackle, but some think guard might be his position. And it doesn't have to be him, it could be someone else.
Again, I said small, small chance, so if it doesn't happen I don't need you or someone else running around here saying I was the genius who said we would trade Bitonio...lol Let's just say I wouldn't be totally shocked if it happened.
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And your points taken.
I guess it boils down to this for me. I am less likely to think what we saw in Teller was an outlier. He was a 5th round pick, and started 5-6 games for Buffalo as a rookie. I assume the starts were as a injury fill in, but i am not sure. I didn't want to do a deep dive in to the specifics. I am pretty sure he didn't win the job out of camp, then lost the job mid way. I only bring up his draft position to highlight that the 5th round is right in the wheelhouse of where the top interior linemen usually are selected. No doubt you have a few cream guys like the guy in Indy who go higher(can't think of his name), but the 5th at least demonstrates he was a highly thought of guard prospect, for what that is worth.
Indeed, being between two solid players was/is a big help. My thinking is that at least a good portion of that comes on the mental side and not actual physical help. That is experience he now has and can carry with him as his career moves forward.
I guess the bottom line is I don't see any way we will be able to maintain keeping both players moving forward. There is a cap pie and I don't see the two guard positions holding as large of a share as it is going to take. I won't totally rule that out, but I don't see it as a high chance. That said, I just go with the younger and cheaper player. Teller will more or less move in to a salary structure currently held by Bitonio (+ inflation) and Bitonio move up from there because he isn't all that old for a O-lineman. You see many still playing well past their mid 30's so there is no reason to believe he can't play at the top of his game for another 2-3 seasons or more.
If we weren't in a SuperBowl window, I'd even think about trading Bitionio at some point later in camp if I saw a guy like Hudson showing enough in camp and preseason games to make me think he could work out to at least a adequate degree. I'll even go so far as to say we might see that happen. A small, small chance at this point, but if we see Hudson or someone getting some 1st team looks in practice and games, it's because some team is talking to Berry about the possibilities. Yes, Hudson was a tackle, but some think guard might be his position. And it doesn't have to be him, it could be someone else.
Again, I said small, small chance, so if it doesn't happen I don't need you or someone else running around here saying I was the genius who said we would trade Bitonio...lol Let's just say I wouldn't be totally shocked if it happened.
I am less likely to think what we saw in Teller was an outlier.
Not really... I doubt it was as well. I simply see no need to decide before 2021 is in the books... something you said was your intent as well.
As for trading Bito.... I'd be shocked enough for both of us. Approximately this shocked...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'd like to get Teller done from the standpoint that extensions while the player is under contract almost always results in some discount over if he goes full free agent. Money in the bank today is worth more than what you might get next year. We did that with Bitonio some years ago.
There is always risk when you sign a guy to a big deal. Injury is one, but that is hard to predict. The other is the guy kind of gives up and shows up for camp 40 lbs overweight. That is hard to predict as well.
In the end, I trust that the front office has a good feel on both fronts and do feel that at some point during the season we extend Teller. IMO doing that will give us a bit of leverage with Bitonio and can extend him another 3 years as well.
A bit off topic, but the mind races early in the morning...I wish the NFL went to a cap system that didn't include QB contracts....put QB's in their own space and have max contracts set aside for them as they require such a disproportionate share of the pie.
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I'd like to get Teller done from the standpoint that extensions while the player is under contract almost always results in some discount over if he goes full free agent. Money in the bank today is worth more than what you might get next year. We did that with Bitonio some years ago.
There is always risk when you sign a guy to a big deal. Injury is one, but that is hard to predict. The other is the guy kind of gives up and shows up for camp 40 lbs overweight. That is hard to predict as well.
In the end, I trust that the front office has a good feel on both fronts and do feel that at some point during the season we extend Teller. IMO doing that will give us a bit of leverage with Bitonio and can extend him another 3 years as well.
A bit off topic, but the mind races early in the morning...I wish the NFL went to a cap system that didn't include QB contracts....put QB's in their own space and have max contracts set aside for them as they require such a disproportionate share of the pie.
A bit off topic, but the mind races early in the morning...I wish the NFL went to a cap system that didn't include QB contracts....put QB's in their own space and have max contracts set aside for them as they require such a disproportionate share of the pie.
I've heard this idea before, and it is a great one. I feel like you almost get punished having a franchise QB, with how much their salaries bog down the rest of the team.
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It does, and why more and more teams kind of skip the whole mid range qb..you know, good but not what people would call great and just draft a rookie, if he doesn't work out, draft another rookie 4 years later.
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