Would you deal a third rounder for Tua, average arm but faster release than Marino.
-
I don’t know about Tua, but l’d take a flyer on Andy Dalton next year for a backup role if Case doesn’t return.
I don’t know about Tua, but l’d take a flyer on Andy Dalton next year for a backup role if Case doesn’t return.
Please no. I’ll keep Case if it means paying something similar to Andy check down Dalton
-
We are too easily accepting the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
We are too easily dismissing the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the "Well he's not elite but he's plenty good enough" crowd might change their tune after a few years of Baker taking up a huge portion of the salary cap with his new contract and he's the third best QB in the AFC North...
-
We are too easily accepting the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
This is a LOADED roster
On paper...
Issue I continue to see is the cap impossibility of keeping a loaded roster together. Have I mentioned that here recently?
Still love Baker's fire, his leadership, but his escapability is a concern. Give me a Jackson, Mahomes or even a Murray tad small, but elusive as hell for a SB run when they can survive a season.
Should have seen this trend coming given the successes of Dak and Wilson. Imma bet DePo did.... but football-Guy Dorsey? Nope.
Plenty of course-changing QBs in this upcoming draft. No instant turnaround types, but I see solid building-block developers.
The Big Bens and Wentzes of the world are the true dinosaurs... that's why MG goes after 'em.
Only the pocket guys with the fastest minds and quickest releases need apply for the old way. I only know of one of those... Rodgers. And even he seems resolved to cap-limit induced, time passing him by now.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
We are too easily accepting the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
We are too easily accepting the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
Yeah- I have figured it out. We have a decent qb in Mayfield- now just give me a HOF GOAT instead. Forget guys in the HOF like Marino and Fouts never got a ring?
Really? You're hoping the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Or the fox who found out those grapes he wanted weren't worth eating. Is that possible? I doubt it. The Browns can franchise Mayfield if they think he's worth it in 2023. The Chiefs are the poster child what happens when you give your franchise QB a cap busting contract at the expense of the rest of the team. Right now, we have no idea if Baker will take a less than a top dollar extension. And FWIW we don't need to be in any damn rush to find out either.
So I want "real" better alternatives. Not some mortgage the future three first round picks+ for a short term shot at the brass ring. That's not Berry's MO- FYI. Or taking a flyer on yet another low first round qb (#22 anyone?) and crossing your fingers he's going to instantly work out. And just stop with the garbage that guys like Tua, Garoppolo, or God's sakes- Gardner Minshew are currently better alternatives.
-
We are too easily dismissing the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the "Well he's not elite but he's plenty good enough" crowd might change their tune after a few years of Baker taking up a huge portion of the salary cap with his new contract and he's the third best QB in the AFC North...
I have a sneaking suspicion that the "Well he's not elite but he's plenty good enough" crowd might change their tune after a few years of Baker taking up a huge portion of the salary cap with his new contract and he's the third best QB in the AFC North...
Agreed. I like him as our QB for the years to come, but if it doesn't mean mortgaging the rest of the roster.
We could see how well did Baltimore do for years after they payed top bills to an Average Joe... Flacco.
-
This is a LOADED roster
On paper...
Issue I continue to see is the cap impossibility of keeping a loaded roster together. Have I mentioned that here recently?
Still love Baker's fire, his leadership, but his escapability is a concern. Give me a Jackson, Mahomes or even a Murray tad small, but elusive as hell for a SB run when they can survive a season.
Should have seen this trend coming given the successes of Dak and Wilson. Imma bet DePo did.... but football-Guy Dorsey? Nope.
Plenty of course-changing QBs in this upcoming draft. No instant turnaround types, but I see solid building-block developers.
The Big Bens and Wentzes of the world are the true dinosaurs... that's why MG goes after 'em.
Only the pocket guys with the fastest minds and quickest releases need apply for the old way. I only know of one of those... Rodgers. And even he seems resolved to cap-limit induced, time passing him by now.
On paper...
Issue I continue to see is the cap impossibility of keeping a loaded roster together. Have I mentioned that here recently?
Still love Baker's fire, his leadership, but his escapability is a concern. Give me a Jackson, Mahomes or even a Murray tad small, but elusive as hell for a SB run when they can survive a season.
Should have seen this trend coming given the successes of Dak and Wilson. Imma bet DePo did.... but football-Guy Dorsey? Nope.
Plenty of course-changing QBs in this upcoming draft. No instant turnaround types, but I see solid building-block developers.
The Big Bens and Wentzes of the world are the true dinosaurs... that's why MG goes after 'em.
Only the pocket guys with the fastest minds and quickest releases need apply for the old way. I only know of one of those... Rodgers. And even he seems resolved to cap-limit induced, time passing him by now.
I agree. On another board I have been preaching for maybe 15 years that the QB position was changing. Drop back QB's were on the way out and running type QBs were going to be the thing. All one had to do was watch what was happening at the HS level. Almost all high school were leaning towards the spread.
Baker can move around, but he can't run. He has no speed, or power like a Tebow had.
I made a comment that Baker and Ski might be a bit like oil and vinegar. Baker throws well on the run but we don't seen any designed roll-outs. Neither guy is wrong, and both are good, but they might not be a good fit for each other.
-
One of the issues with wanting a mobile QB is also the type of mobility.
Mahomes moves and runs to throw. Same with Murray and Wilson. To a lesser extent Baker. Passers before mobility.
Then you have Lamar who had benefited from a reduced and/or slower pass rush because of the gift of his legs. you can't just fly upfield and bend the corner because he'll walk out of the pocket. The additional half to full second of time has really given Lamar the room to work on growing as a passer, provided the game is within reach. But when it isn't and he has to utilize all the tools of an elite passer from the pocket? Well... San Diego, Tennessee and Cincy have answered that particular question.
Brady has been slippery as hell in the pocket because of his ability to sense pressure, slide, manipulate the rush and reset all to deliver downfield. That's my QB preference, but with the way the game has been tailored from midget leagues all the way through college, that type of ability from behind the line has become even more rare.
-
We are too easily accepting the idea that Baker is a Brown beyond 2022.
Take the we are an 0-16 team lenses off and we had decades of futility…the bar has changed…embrace change if a better alternative is viable
This is a LOADED roster with a few league average positions groups. Figure it out.
Yeah- I have figured it out. We have a decent qb in Mayfield- now just give me a HOF GOAT instead. Forget guys in the HOF like Marino and Fouts never got a ring?
Really? You're hoping the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Or the fox who found out those grapes he wanted weren't worth eating. Is that possible? I doubt it. The Browns can franchise Mayfield if they think he's worth it in 2023. The Chiefs are the poster child what happens when you give your franchise QB a cap busting contract at the expense of the rest of the team. Right now, we have no idea if Baker will take a less than a top dollar extension. And FWIW we don't need to be in any damn rush to find out either.
So I want "real" better alternatives. Not some mortgage the future three first round picks+ for a short term shot at the brass ring. That's not Berry's MO- FYI. Or taking a flyer on yet another low first round qb (#22 anyone?) and crossing your fingers he's going to instantly work out. And just stop with the garbage that guys like Tua, Garoppolo, or God's sakes- Gardner Minshew are currently better alternatives.
Yeah- I have figured it out. We have a decent qb in Mayfield- now just give me a HOF GOAT instead. Forget guys in the HOF like Marino and Fouts never got a ring?
Really? You're hoping the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Or the fox who found out those grapes he wanted weren't worth eating. Is that possible? I doubt it. The Browns can franchise Mayfield if they think he's worth it in 2023. The Chiefs are the poster child what happens when you give your franchise QB a cap busting contract at the expense of the rest of the team. Right now, we have no idea if Baker will take a less than a top dollar extension. And FWIW we don't need to be in any damn rush to find out either.
So I want "real" better alternatives. Not some mortgage the future three first round picks+ for a short term shot at the brass ring. That's not Berry's MO- FYI. Or taking a flyer on yet another low first round qb (#22 anyone?) and crossing your fingers he's going to instantly work out. And just stop with the garbage that guys like Tua, Garoppolo, or God's sakes- Gardner Minshew are currently better alternatives.
So you will pay a decent QB at least 30M a year? And MORE if you actually franchise him.
I will turn over some rocks namely Rodgers and Wilson IF those names are available (I suspect they are this offseason). Short list here although I put Jimmy G in there because of scheme fit- I probably don’t go there. After the names here and if i strikeout I keep Baker and take a flyer on a draftee. Love Pickett out of Pitt but he’s playing himself into a day 1 or day 2 pick and I think a guy like Tanner Morgan plays better at the next level.
But I don’t have heartburn upgrading (big time) the most important position on the field because we may give up Greedy Williams Jed Wills, Newsome types for the next 3 years.
Im grateful. Bakers intangibles are great. He’s played a key role transforming the franchise on a path back to prominence. I don’t see him putting together a string of complete performances to a super bowl run or going toe to toe with the upper QBs in the playoffs. I see uneven performances some brilliant plays and then some head scratchers…I suspect one, two, three years from now many of you will be here with me heck some of you are here with me or will be with me here within a year.
And This a Super Bowl caliber roster. You could argue we will get better bounces in the years to come or we may play collectively better as a team down the road but the collection of talent this season will likely never be better…but I see a few long term roster decisions that in IMO are being made this year (Harrison, Hooper, OBJ). Are any of you jumping to keep these guys on? Now the toughies Ward and Baker…
I disagree on needing a mobile QB. We need a QB that sees the field a little better doesn’t hang onto the ball constantly while not seeing wide open WRs and then makes throws he should just a tad better than What Baker does. I don’t think I’m even calling for a GOAT QB here? And Some of you think the line isn’t doing its job when it’s Baker holding the dang ball too long. I suspect Baker may improve a little but will his current setup (line backs WRs play caller collectively) ever be better?
end of rant…I’ll stop before I go onto Joe Woods
-
Yeah- I have figured it out. We have a decent qb in Mayfield- now just give me a HOF GOAT instead. Forget guys in the HOF like Marino and Fouts never got a ring?
Really? You're hoping the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Or the fox who found out those grapes he wanted weren't worth eating. Is that possible? I doubt it. The Browns can franchise Mayfield if they think he's worth it in 2023. The Chiefs are the poster child what happens when you give your franchise QB a cap busting contract at the expense of the rest of the team. Right now, we have no idea if Baker will take a less than a top dollar extension. And FWIW we don't need to be in any damn rush to find out either.
So I want "real" better alternatives. Not some mortgage the future three first round picks+ for a short term shot at the brass ring. That's not Berry's MO- FYI. Or taking a flyer on yet another low first round qb (#22 anyone?) and crossing your fingers he's going to instantly work out. And just stop with the garbage that guys like Tua, Garoppolo, or God's sakes- Gardner Minshew are currently better alternatives.
So you will pay a decent QB at least 30M a year? And MORE if you actually franchise him.
I will turn over some rocks namely Rodgers and Wilson IF those names are available (I suspect they are this offseason). Short list here although I put Jimmy G in there because of scheme fit- I probably don’t go there. After the names here and if i strikeout I keep Baker and take a flyer on a draftee. Love Pickett out of Pitt but he’s playing himself into a day 1 or day 2 pick and I think a guy like Tanner Morgan plays better at the next level.
But I don’t have heartburn upgrading (big time) the most important position on the field because we may give up Greedy Williams Jed Wills, Newsome types for the next 3 years.
Im grateful. Bakers intangibles are great. He’s played a key role transforming the franchise on a path back to prominence. I don’t see him putting together a string of complete performances to a super bowl run or going toe to toe with the upper QBs in the playoffs. I see uneven performances some brilliant plays and then some head scratchers…I suspect one, two, three years from now many of you will be here with me heck some of you are here with me or will be with me here within a year.
And This a Super Bowl caliber roster. You could argue we will get better bounces in the years to come or we may play collectively better as a team down the road but the collection of talent this season will likely never be better…but I see a few long term roster decisions that in IMO are being made this year (Harrison, Hooper, OBJ). Are any of you jumping to keep these guys on? Now the toughies Ward and Baker…
I disagree on needing a mobile QB. We need a QB that sees the field a little better doesn’t hang onto the ball constantly while not seeing wide open WRs and then makes throws he should just a tad better than What Baker does. I don’t think I’m even calling for a GOAT QB here? And Some of you think the line isn’t doing its job when it’s Baker holding the dang ball too long. I suspect Baker may improve a little but will his current setup (line backs WRs play caller collectively) ever be better?
end of rant…I’ll stop before I go onto Joe Woods
So you will pay a decent QB at least 30M a year? And MORE if you actually franchise him.
I will turn over some rocks namely Rodgers and Wilson IF those names are available (I suspect they are this offseason). Short list here although I put Jimmy G in there because of scheme fit- I probably don’t go there. After the names here and if i strikeout I keep Baker and take a flyer on a draftee. Love Pickett out of Pitt but he’s playing himself into a day 1 or day 2 pick and I think a guy like Tanner Morgan plays better at the next level.
But I don’t have heartburn upgrading (big time) the most important position on the field because we may give up Greedy Williams Jed Wills, Newsome types for the next 3 years.
Im grateful. Bakers intangibles are great. He’s played a key role transforming the franchise on a path back to prominence. I don’t see him putting together a string of complete performances to a super bowl run or going toe to toe with the upper QBs in the playoffs. I see uneven performances some brilliant plays and then some head scratchers…I suspect one, two, three years from now many of you will be here with me heck some of you are here with me or will be with me here within a year.
And This a Super Bowl caliber roster. You could argue we will get better bounces in the years to come or we may play collectively better as a team down the road but the collection of talent this season will likely never be better…but I see a few long term roster decisions that in IMO are being made this year (Harrison, Hooper, OBJ). Are any of you jumping to keep these guys on? Now the toughies Ward and Baker…
I disagree on needing a mobile QB. We need a QB that sees the field a little better doesn’t hang onto the ball constantly while not seeing wide open WRs and then makes throws he should just a tad better than What Baker does. I don’t think I’m even calling for a GOAT QB here? And Some of you think the line isn’t doing its job when it’s Baker holding the dang ball too long. I suspect Baker may improve a little but will his current setup (line backs WRs play caller collectively) ever be better?
end of rant…I’ll stop before I go onto Joe Woods
You're contradicting yourself. If "the future is now". Then I already told you Rodgers or Wilson aren't worth the 3 first round picks+ that the asking price is going to be for ONE shot at a title. As I mentioned- just having those aforementioned guys is absolutely NOT a 100% guarantee of a Super Bowl win. Garropolo is not any better than Baker either- you're at best treading water. Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. Sorry- you're playing Madden, and Andrew Berry isn't going to follow your suggestions. It takes more than a great team- a little (or maybe more than a little) luck to win a Super Bowl is involved in the process. Like the almost perfect Patriots getting beat by one of the Giants catching a pass off the top of his helmet. Or an untimely interception in the SB. Browns well could have made a Super Bowl if not for a nobody named Jeremiah Castille. Old enough to remember him?
And taking a flyer on a college kid? Har, har, we failed on that one upside of 20 times. Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen aren't exactly setting the NFL on fire, in case you haven't noticed. Yeah- and by the time your hot shot QB has been in the league a few years- the rest of your nucleus of star power surrounding him is either over the hill or off to $$ greener pastures. FWIW, I'm not adverse to taking a project QB in the lower rounds.
BTW- $30 million IS the going rate for a starting NFL QB on their second contract. Don't believe me? https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/
There's plenty of guys in that non-elite second tier making that much.
-
So you will pay a decent QB at least 30M a year? And MORE if you actually franchise him.
I will turn over some rocks namely Rodgers and Wilson IF those names are available (I suspect they are this offseason). Short list here although I put Jimmy G in there because of scheme fit- I probably don’t go there. After the names here and if i strikeout I keep Baker and take a flyer on a draftee. Love Pickett out of Pitt but he’s playing himself into a day 1 or day 2 pick and I think a guy like Tanner Morgan plays better at the next level.
But I don’t have heartburn upgrading (big time) the most important position on the field because we may give up Greedy Williams Jed Wills, Newsome types for the next 3 years.
Im grateful. Bakers intangibles are great. He’s played a key role transforming the franchise on a path back to prominence. I don’t see him putting together a string of complete performances to a super bowl run or going toe to toe with the upper QBs in the playoffs. I see uneven performances some brilliant plays and then some head scratchers…I suspect one, two, three years from now many of you will be here with me heck some of you are here with me or will be with me here within a year.
And This a Super Bowl caliber roster. You could argue we will get better bounces in the years to come or we may play collectively better as a team down the road but the collection of talent this season will likely never be better…but I see a few long term roster decisions that in IMO are being made this year (Harrison, Hooper, OBJ). Are any of you jumping to keep these guys on? Now the toughies Ward and Baker…
I disagree on needing a mobile QB. We need a QB that sees the field a little better doesn’t hang onto the ball constantly while not seeing wide open WRs and then makes throws he should just a tad better than What Baker does. I don’t think I’m even calling for a GOAT QB here? And Some of you think the line isn’t doing its job when it’s Baker holding the dang ball too long. I suspect Baker may improve a little but will his current setup (line backs WRs play caller collectively) ever be better?
end of rant…I’ll stop before I go onto Joe Woods
You're contradicting yourself. If "the future is now". Then I already told you Rodgers or Wilson aren't worth the 3 first round picks+ that the asking price is going to be for ONE shot at a title. As I mentioned- just having those aforementioned guys is absolutely NOT a 100% guarantee of a Super Bowl win. Garropolo is not any better than Baker either- you're at best treading water. Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. Sorry- you're playing Madden, and Andrew Berry isn't going to follow your suggestions. It takes more than a great team- a little (or maybe more than a little) luck to win a Super Bowl is involved in the process. Like the almost perfect Patriots getting beat by one of the Giants catching a pass off the top of his helmet. Or an untimely interception in the SB. Browns well could have made a Super Bowl if not for a nobody named Jeremiah Castille. Old enough to remember him?
And taking a flyer on a college kid? Har, har, we failed on that one upside of 20 times. Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen aren't exactly setting the NFL on fire, in case you haven't noticed. Yeah- and by the time your hot shot QB has been in the league a few years- the rest of your nucleus of star power surrounding him is either over the hill or off to $$ greener pastures. FWIW, I'm not adverse to taking a project QB in the lower rounds.
BTW- $30 million IS the going rate for a starting NFL QB on their second contract. Don't believe me? https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/
There's plenty of guys in that non-elite second tier making that much.
You're contradicting yourself. If "the future is now". Then I already told you Rodgers or Wilson aren't worth the 3 first round picks+ that the asking price is going to be for ONE shot at a title. As I mentioned- just having those aforementioned guys is absolutely NOT a 100% guarantee of a Super Bowl win. Garropolo is not any better than Baker either- you're at best treading water. Sorry- you're playing Madden, and Andrew Berry isn't going to follow your suggestions. It takes more than a great team- a little (or maybe more than a little) luck to win a Super Bowl is involved in the process. Like the almost perfect Patriots getting beat by one of the Giants catching a pass off the top of his helmet. Or an untimely interception in the SB. Browns well could have made a Super Bowl if not for a nobody named Jeremiah Castille. Old enough to remember him?
And taking a flyer on a college kid? Har, har, we failed on that one upside of 20 times. Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen aren't exactly setting the NFL on fire, in case you haven't noticed. Yeah- and by the time your hot shot QB has been in the league a few years- the rest of your nucleus of star power surrounding him is either over the hill or off to $$ greener pastures. FWIW, I'm not adverse to taking a project QB in the lower rounds.
BTW- $30 million IS the going rate for a starting NFL QB on their second contract. Don't believe me? https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/
There's plenty of guys in that non-elite second tier making that much.
I think Russ and Aaron have shown they have more than one shot at title so there’s that. Rodgers is coming off an MVP year. Wilson is 32.
If you think Baker is still the guy there is no use in debating this issue
I understand the going rate. Im not a causal fan. Understanding and agreeing with paying for uneven average QB play are two different concepts
-
You're contradicting yourself. If "the future is now". Then I already told you Rodgers or Wilson aren't worth the 3 first round picks+ that the asking price is going to be for ONE shot at a title. As I mentioned- just having those aforementioned guys is absolutely NOT a 100% guarantee of a Super Bowl win. Garropolo is not any better than Baker either- you're at best treading water. Sorry- you're playing Madden, and Andrew Berry isn't going to follow your suggestions. It takes more than a great team- a little (or maybe more than a little) luck to win a Super Bowl is involved in the process. Like the almost perfect Patriots getting beat by one of the Giants catching a pass off the top of his helmet. Or an untimely interception in the SB. Browns well could have made a Super Bowl if not for a nobody named Jeremiah Castille. Old enough to remember him?
And taking a flyer on a college kid? Har, har, we failed on that one upside of 20 times. Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen aren't exactly setting the NFL on fire, in case you haven't noticed. Yeah- and by the time your hot shot QB has been in the league a few years- the rest of your nucleus of star power surrounding him is either over the hill or off to $$ greener pastures. FWIW, I'm not adverse to taking a project QB in the lower rounds.
BTW- $30 million IS the going rate for a starting NFL QB on their second contract. Don't believe me? https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/
There's plenty of guys in that non-elite second tier making that much.
I think Russ and Aaron have shown they have more than one shot at title so there’s that. Rodgers is coming off an MVP year. Wilson is 32.
If you think Baker is still the guy there is no use in debating this issue
I understand the going rate. Im not a causal fan. Understanding and agreeing with paying for uneven average QB play are two different concepts
I think Russ and Aaron have shown they have more than one shot at title so there’s that. Rodgers is coming off an MVP year. Wilson is 32.
If you think Baker is still the guy there is no use in debating this issue
I understand the going rate. Im not a causal fan. Understanding and agreeing with paying for uneven average QB play are two different concepts
Rodgers isn't coming here (he's going to call his shot), plus he's sort of an asshole. He's probably going to want a Mahomes level payday- and we're seeing what that's doing to the Chiefs. Wilson will likely be reupped by the Seahawks. Like I said- you're playing Madden.
MHO- There's no rush to "gotta have a top tier guy NOW" or we're never going to get there. We have the rest of this year- and next if necessary if we want to pay Baker- or not. And we have no idea what sort of contract he's going to be willing to accept. You're forgetting when he's healthy Baker (with some help of a boatload of turnovers) won the first Browns playoff game in a generation. Sometimes- it's better to be lucky than good. I've pointed out in other threads the Ravens were plenty lucky to have that 5-1 record going into the Cinci game.
You responded before I edited my post...
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. I'm not blind to the fact plenty of Baker bashing has been going around questioning if he's "elite" or not. The answer is- he doesn't have to be, as long as the rest of the supporting cast is. I'm very fond of reminding fans once upon a time, Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow in a playoff game.
-
I think Russ and Aaron have shown they have more than one shot at title so there’s that. Rodgers is coming off an MVP year. Wilson is 32.
If you think Baker is still the guy there is no use in debating this issue
I understand the going rate. Im not a causal fan. Understanding and agreeing with paying for uneven average QB play are two different concepts
Rodgers isn't coming here (he's going to call his shot), plus he's sort of an asshole. He's probably going to want a Mahomes level payday- and we're seeing what that's doing to the Chiefs. Wilson will likely be reupped by the Seahawks. Like I said- you're playing Madden.
MHO- There's no rush to "gotta have a top tier guy NOW" or we're never going to get there. We have the rest of this year- and next if necessary if we want to pay Baker- or not. And we have no idea what sort of contract he's going to be willing to accept. You're forgetting when he's healthy Baker (with some help of a boatload of turnovers) won the first Browns playoff game in a generation. Sometimes- it's better to be lucky than good. I've pointed out in other threads the Ravens were plenty lucky to have that 5-1 record going into the Cinci game.
You responded before I edited my post...
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. I'm not blind to the fact plenty of Baker bashing has been going around questioning if he's "elite" or not. The answer is- he doesn't have to be, as long as the rest of the supporting cast is. I'm very fond of reminding fans once upon a time, Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow in a playoff game.
Rodgers isn't coming here (he's going to call his shot), plus he's sort of an asshole. He's probably going to want a Mahomes level payday- and we're seeing what that's doing to the Chiefs. Wilson will likely be reupped by the Seahawks. Like I said- you're playing Madden.
MHO- There's no rush to "gotta have a top tier guy NOW" or we're never going to get there. We have the rest of this year- and next if necessary if we want to pay Baker- or not. And we have no idea what sort of contract he's going to be willing to accept. You're forgetting when he's healthy Baker (with some help of a boatload of turnovers) won the first Browns playoff game in a generation. Sometimes- it's better to be lucky than good. I've pointed out in other threads the Ravens were plenty lucky to have that 5-1 record going into the Cinci game.
You responded before I edited my post...
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. I'm not blind to the fact plenty of Baker bashing has been going around questioning if he's "elite" or not. The answer is- he doesn't have to be, as long as the rest of the supporting cast is. I'm very fond of reminding fans once upon a time, Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow in a playoff game.
It isn’t Madden…and I don’t have enough time and energy to post all of the trade speculation links with both…and I spent the whole off season hearing about Aaron Rodgers divorce from the Packers. Tell me if I’m wrong. BTW I’ve never heard of a modern day superstar forcing himself off a roster. HAPPENs all the time!!!
Madden is discussing Josh Allen to the Browns after he wins a super bowl with the Bills.If they are on the block…I say inquire and make an offer. That’s all. Just MHO.
If they don’t they are obviously okay with Baker.
I would say with the current roster composition our time is now so we can fart around with an average QB that might be the exception just like Ryphien Dilfer or others that you post or inquire and offer with the two I mentioned above.
God Forbid we hang onto a 32nd overall pick and others for a QB like Aaron or Russ.
-
Rodgers isn't coming here (he's going to call his shot), plus he's sort of an asshole. He's probably going to want a Mahomes level payday- and we're seeing what that's doing to the Chiefs. Wilson will likely be reupped by the Seahawks. Like I said- you're playing Madden.
MHO- There's no rush to "gotta have a top tier guy NOW" or we're never going to get there. We have the rest of this year- and next if necessary if we want to pay Baker- or not. And we have no idea what sort of contract he's going to be willing to accept. You're forgetting when he's healthy Baker (with some help of a boatload of turnovers) won the first Browns playoff game in a generation. Sometimes- it's better to be lucky than good. I've pointed out in other threads the Ravens were plenty lucky to have that 5-1 record going into the Cinci game.
You responded before I edited my post...
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. I'm not blind to the fact plenty of Baker bashing has been going around questioning if he's "elite" or not. The answer is- he doesn't have to be, as long as the rest of the supporting cast is. I'm very fond of reminding fans once upon a time, Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow in a playoff game.
It isn’t Madden…and I don’t have enough time and energy to post all of the trade speculation links with both…and I spent the whole off season hearing about Aaron Rodgers divorce from the Packers. Tell me if I’m wrong. BTW I’ve never heard of a modern day superstar forcing himself off a roster. HAPPENs all the time!!!
Madden is discussing Josh Allen to the Browns after he wins a super bowl with the Bills.If they are on the block…I say inquire and make an offer. That’s all. Just MHO.
If they don’t they are obviously okay with Baker.
I would say with the current roster composition our time is now so we can fart around with an average QB that might be the exception just like Ryphien Dilfer or others that you post or inquire and offer with the two I mentioned above.
God Forbid we hang onto a 32nd overall pick and others for a QB like Aaron or Russ.
It isn’t Madden…and I don’t have enough time and energy to post all of the trade speculation links with both…and I spent the whole off season hearing about Aaron Rodgers divorce from the Packers. Tell me if I’m wrong. BTW I’ve never heard of a modern day superstar forcing himself off a roster. HAPPENs all the time!!!
Madden is discussing Josh Allen to the Browns after he wins a super bowl with the Bills.If they are on the block…I say inquire and make an offer. That’s all. Just MHO.
If they don’t they are obviously okay with Baker.
I would say with the current roster composition our time is now so we can fart around with an average QB that might be the exception just like Ryphien Dilfer or others that you post or inquire and offer with the two I mentioned above.
God Forbid we hang onto a 32nd overall pick and others for a QB like Aaron or Russ.
Yep, Rodgers is a multiple League MVP and has a Super Bowl win to his credit. That's ONE in 15 seasons. His playoff record is 11-8. He's not the once in multiple generations ageless Tom Brady. I'm done- just keep on reading that speculation. It doesn't mean jack shit until after the season. FWIW, a lot of that crap is just clickbait anyway. You may say inquire, and Berry may well inquire about Rodgers. And when the Packers GM tells him sure, three first round picks, a second, and Baker Mayfield- yeah right. That was the bar that got Stafford (who doesn't have close to Rodger's pedigree) from the Lions to the Rams, and there's no way in hell the Packers are going to take any less. There's your reality. Berry and Depodesta aren't that stupid to give up that much, and that's not how they're going about team building anyway.
Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it, looks like that's what you're Jonesying for.. One and Done. Sure, the Broncos won a Super Bowl with an end of the road Peyton Manning- and they've pretty much been in the dumpster ever since. Even in your fantasy scenario- should you get one of those guys- you're right there in the Chiefs up the Missouri without a paddle when you have to dismantle the team to pay their cap busting contract the following year.
PS- Two things that will interest me 1) What the Texans will be able to garner for the certain to be moved "Damaged Goods" Deshawn Watson before the trade deadline. 2) and if the Rams don't win it all with their "All In" on Stafford in February, you can bet I'll be LMAO. I haven't forgotten how their owner Stan Kroenke royally screwed over Saint Louis when he moved the Rams.
-
It isn’t Madden…and I don’t have enough time and energy to post all of the trade speculation links with both…and I spent the whole off season hearing about Aaron Rodgers divorce from the Packers. Tell me if I’m wrong. BTW I’ve never heard of a modern day superstar forcing himself off a roster. HAPPENs all the time!!!
Madden is discussing Josh Allen to the Browns after he wins a super bowl with the Bills.If they are on the block…I say inquire and make an offer. That’s all. Just MHO.
If they don’t they are obviously okay with Baker.
I would say with the current roster composition our time is now so we can fart around with an average QB that might be the exception just like Ryphien Dilfer or others that you post or inquire and offer with the two I mentioned above.
God Forbid we hang onto a 32nd overall pick and others for a QB like Aaron or Russ.
Yep, Rodgers is a multiple League MVP and has a Super Bowl win to his credit. That's ONE in 15 seasons. His playoff record is 11-8. He's not the once in multiple generations ageless Tom Brady. I'm done- just keep on reading that speculation. It doesn't mean jack shit until after the season. FWIW, a lot of that crap is just clickbait anyway. You may say inquire, and Berry may well inquire about Rodgers. And when the Packers GM tells him sure, three first round picks, a second, and Baker Mayfield- yeah right. That was the bar that got Stafford (who doesn't have close to Rodger's pedigree) from the Lions to the Rams, and there's no way in hell the Packers are going to take any less. There's your reality. Berry and Depodesta aren't that stupid to give up that much, and that's not how they're going about team building anyway.
Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it, looks like that's what you're Jonesying for.. One and Done. Sure, the Broncos won a Super Bowl with an end of the road Peyton Manning- and they've pretty much been in the dumpster ever since. Even in your fantasy scenario- should you get one of those guys- you're right there in the Chiefs up the Missouri without a paddle when you have to dismantle the team to pay their cap busting contract the following year.
PS- Two things that will interest me 1) What the Texans will be able to garner for the certain to be moved "Damaged Goods" Deshawn Watson before the trade deadline. 2) and if the Rams don't win it all with their "All In" on Stafford in February, you can bet I'll be LMAO. I haven't forgotten how their owner Stan Kroenke royally screwed over Saint Louis when he moved the Rams.
Yep, Rodgers is a multiple League MVP and has a Super Bowl win to his credit. That's ONE in 15 seasons. His playoff record is 11-8. He's not the once in multiple generations ageless Tom Brady. I'm done- just keep on reading that speculation. It doesn't mean jack shit until after the season. FWIW, a lot of that crap is just clickbait anyway. You may say inquire, and Berry may well inquire about Rodgers. And when the Packers GM tells him sure, three first round picks, a second, and Baker Mayfield- yeah right. That was the bar that got Stafford (who doesn't have close to Rodger's pedigree) from the Lions to the Rams, and there's no way in hell the Packers are going to take any less. There's your reality. Berry and Depodesta aren't that stupid to give up that much, and that's not how they're going about team building anyway.
Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it, looks like that's what you're Jonesying for.. One and Done. Sure, the Broncos won a Super Bowl with an end of the road Peyton Manning- and they've pretty much been in the dumpster ever since. Even in your fantasy scenario- should you get one of those guys- you're right there in the Chiefs up the Missouri without a paddle when you have to dismantle the team to pay their cap busting contract the following year.
PS- Two things that will interest me 1) What the Texans will be able to garner for the certain to be moved "Damaged Goods" Deshawn Watson before the trade deadline. 2) and if the Rams don't win it all with their "All In" on Stafford in February, you can bet I'll be LMAO. I haven't forgotten how their owner Stan Kroenke royally screwed over Saint Louis when he moved the Rams.
You are casually dismissing one Super Bowl in 15 years as if the Browns have a stacked trophy case in Berea.
Id say the Rams are in a better spot than they were with Goff. Isn’t the goal to make your team better?
I’m actually fine with Baker now because we can afford to build a team around him (which he needs). We are hearing 30-35M to extend- now you start peeling away the support around him that he desperately needs.
There is no sense in arguing you value draft picks more than I do. Not that I want to trade away picks every year. I just believe we have young roster now (thanks to having multitudes of picks in years past) but we are a signal caller away. I think we disagree here too.
And while you are correct we would need to pay the new QB I’d argue we’d finally have a QB that doesn’t need support in every position.
-
What's happening right now to Mahomes shows the value of the rest of the team to every QB.. no team of one can succeed. KC is not a super bowl contender this year due simply to life with Mahomes' contract.. they don't have cash to pay difference-makers at enough other spots [OL, DL, DB, WR] and some of the people they did pay [Frank Clark] aren't performing any better than what they might expect from league-average replacements.
This impacts the Baker contract because not only does it decrease the "max" for a sensational talent.. Baker isn't at that sensational level and so his offer must necessarily be even lower than the decreased max.
-
What's happening right now to Mahomes shows the value of the rest of the team to every QB.. no team of one can succeed. KC is not a super bowl contender this year due simply to life with Mahomes' contract.. they don't have cash to pay difference-makers at enough other spots [OL, DL, DB, WR] and some of the people they did pay [Frank Clark] aren't performing any better than what they might expect from league-average replacements.
This impacts the Baker contract because not only does it decrease the "max" for a sensational talent.. Baker isn't at that sensational level and so his offer must necessarily be even lower than the decreased max.
What's happening right now to Mahomes shows the value of the rest of the team to every QB.. no team of one can succeed. KC is not a super bowl contender this year due simply to life with Mahomes' contract.. they don't have cash to pay difference-makers at enough other spots [OL, DL, DB, WR] and some of the people they did pay [Frank Clark] aren't performing any better than what they might expect from league-average replacements.
This impacts the Baker contract because not only does it decrease the "max" for a sensational talent.. Baker isn't at that sensational level and so his offer must necessarily be even lower than the decreased max.
Things would be better if Mecole Hardman and Clyde Edwards Helaire were better… Two first round picks there and also as you mentioned Frank Clark. Two premium picks misses and one big free agent whiff.
-
I think Russ and Aaron have shown they have more than one shot at title so there’s that. Rodgers is coming off an MVP year. Wilson is 32.
If you think Baker is still the guy there is no use in debating this issue
I understand the going rate. Im not a causal fan. Understanding and agreeing with paying for uneven average QB play are two different concepts
Rodgers isn't coming here (he's going to call his shot), plus he's sort of an asshole. He's probably going to want a Mahomes level payday- and we're seeing what that's doing to the Chiefs. Wilson will likely be reupped by the Seahawks. Like I said- you're playing Madden.
MHO- There's no rush to "gotta have a top tier guy NOW" or we're never going to get there. We have the rest of this year- and next if necessary if we want to pay Baker- or not. And we have no idea what sort of contract he's going to be willing to accept. You're forgetting when he's healthy Baker (with some help of a boatload of turnovers) won the first Browns playoff game in a generation. Sometimes- it's better to be lucky than good. I've pointed out in other threads the Ravens were plenty lucky to have that 5-1 record going into the Cinci game.
You responded before I edited my post...
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer. I'm not blind to the fact plenty of Baker bashing has been going around questioning if he's "elite" or not. The answer is- he doesn't have to be, as long as the rest of the supporting cast is. I'm very fond of reminding fans once upon a time, Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow in a playoff game.
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer.
Include Flacco in there. Only difference is those teams didn't have staying power and paying their QB's, such as the Ravens did with Flacco, held back their rosters and cap room. Lesson here - want long term shots a playoff/SB windows? You NEED an elite QB. Otherwise you'll get a magical run and then nonsense on the in between years.
What's happening right now to Mahomes shows the value of the rest of the team to every QB.. no team of one can succeed. KC is not a super bowl contender this year due simply to life with Mahomes' contract.. they don't have cash to pay difference-makers at enough other spots [OL, DL, DB, WR] and some of the people they did pay [Frank Clark] aren't performing any better than what they might expect from league-average replacements.
This impacts the Baker contract because not only does it decrease the "max" for a sensational talent.. Baker isn't at that sensational level and so his offer must necessarily be even lower than the decreased max.
Agreed. No QB can overcome severely deficient talent, especially up front. But Mahomes is also having issues with turnovers this latest stretch of games because his fine line of brilliance and stupidity has clocked on the latter of late. You can't always get away with some of the throws he has been making and his casual approach to being used to it has been a shock to the system of the KC offense. I mentioned it in some past thread - they live for the deep ball, the flash and the celebration. Make them play patient and physical and these have been the results. A high flying team with zero defense. The 2000's Oregon Ducks of the NFL, in a nutshell.
Things would be better if Mecole Hardman and Clyde Edwards Helaire were better… Two first round picks there and also as you mentioned Frank Clark. Two premium picks misses and one big free agent whiff.
Hardman was a 2nd round pick. He's a decent player, but unlike Tyreek who became a complete receiver, Hardman appears to be more of a gadget type.
-
So... Incidentally, plenty of QBs worse than Baker HAVE won Super Bowls- if the TEAM around them was good enough- McMahon, Williams, Rypien, Dilfer.
Include Flacco in there. Only difference is those teams didn't have staying power and paying their QB's, such as the Ravens did with Flacco, held back their rosters and cap room. Lesson here - want long term shots a playoff/SB windows? You NEED an elite QB. Otherwise you'll get a magical run and then nonsense on the in between years.
What's happening right now to Mahomes shows the value of the rest of the team to every QB.. no team of one can succeed. KC is not a super bowl contender this year due simply to life with Mahomes' contract.. they don't have cash to pay difference-makers at enough other spots [OL, DL, DB, WR] and some of the people they did pay [Frank Clark] aren't performing any better than what they might expect from league-average replacements.
This impacts the Baker contract because not only does it decrease the "max" for a sensational talent.. Baker isn't at that sensational level and so his offer must necessarily be even lower than the decreased max.
Agreed. No QB can overcome severely deficient talent, especially up front. But Mahomes is also having issues with turnovers this latest stretch of games because his fine line of brilliance and stupidity has clocked on the latter of late. You can't always get away with some of the throws he has been making and his casual approach to being used to it has been a shock to the system of the KC offense. I mentioned it in some past thread - they live for the deep ball, the flash and the celebration. Make them play patient and physical and these have been the results. A high flying team with zero defense. The 2000's Oregon Ducks of the NFL, in a nutshell.
Things would be better if Mecole Hardman and Clyde Edwards Helaire were better… Two first round picks there and also as you mentioned Frank Clark. Two premium picks misses and one big free agent whiff.
Hardman was a 2nd round pick. He's a decent player, but unlike Tyreek who became a complete receiver, Hardman appears to be more of a gadget type.
1) Include Flacco in there. Only difference is those teams didn't have staying power and paying their QB's, such as the Ravens did with Flacco, held back their rosters and cap room. Lesson here - want long term shots a playoff/SB windows? You NEED an elite QB. Otherwise you'll get a magical run and then nonsense on the in between years.
2) Agreed. No QB can overcome severely deficient talent, especially up front. But Mahomes is also having issues with turnovers this latest stretch of games because his fine line of brilliance and stupidity has clocked on the latter of late. You can't always get away with some of the throws he has been making and his casual approach to being used to it has been a shock to the system of the KC offense. I mentioned it in some past thread - they live for the deep ball, the flash and the celebration. Make them play patient and physical and these have been the results. A high flying team with zero defense. The 2000's Oregon Ducks of the NFL, in a nutshell.
1) Of course, I 100% agree that for sustained (like a decade long) success you had better have an elite QB. The question is- and you're seeing it from a lot of quarters- is Baker "elite" enough? My observation was plenty of guys around here- after 57 years without a Championship- would be more than thrilled with a "one and done". Count me in on that group. I've mentioned it a bunch of times- one of my greatest regrets in life was not using some of my paper route money, buying a ticket and hopping on the bus downtown to catch the 1964 Championship game. Can't be more than another year or two.. Right? Wrong.
Two QB examples for you to comment on if you'd like to. Since I live in Bengal Land.. 1) Andy Dalton- good enough to make the playoffs 4 seasons running, and flopped in all of them. Is that the best we can expect out of Baker? 2) Matt Ryan.. I think you can safely say he's "elite" but Mr. Bad Luck ala Archie Manning.
2) Preaching to the Choir. I already duly noted they had to let a bunch of their OL starters go to pay for Mahomes cap busting contract... I could easily envision 6 more losses on their schedule. To make the playoffs- they're going to have to beat the Raiders twice, Chargers on the road, sweep Denver, and pull at least one win out against the Cowboys, Steelers, and Bengals. Not easy. Haven't heard from Pat Mahomo of late, have we? I did look up the stats and his qbr has tanked in the last few games.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login