2023 Browns NFL Draft Prospects

Dutch Oven

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2023/02/defensive-line-reinforcements-should-be-a-priority-for-cleveland-even-if-it-means-trading-up-ashley-bastocks-browns-mock-draft-1.html

Here's an interesting Browns mock draft that includes a DTackle I've liked, along with two Ohio State players and a local kid who played in Cincinnati.

Flugel

@dutch-oven said:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2023/02/defensive-line-reinforcements-should-be-a-priority-for-cleveland-even-if-it-means-trading-up-ashley-bastocks-browns-mock-draft-1.html

Here's an interesting Browns mock draft that includes a DTackle I've liked, along with two Ohio State players and a local kid who played in Cincinnati.

I wouldn't mind that unfolding for the Browns at all. Seems pretty easy on the scouting dept too if you get 2 guys from Ohio State, 1 from Cincy and 1 from The School Up North. We'll need to a Safety to take John Johnson's spot too; and this one seems to be a pretty solid tackler (unless I just jinxed him).

tiamat63

Harrison in the 4th seems ok at the moment. Hickman in the 2nd feels a bit off for our needs. I go back to making mention of having DBs with no contrast to their abilities. Ronnie wasn't great when tasked with rolling single high, and there were times when he was "meh" at best downfield and back on a hash.

He triggers downhill pretty damn well and he was the Bucks most consistent tackler of all our DBs. But pairing him with Delpit strikes me as a problem by having two starting safeties who both need to improve in the exact same ways.

ballpeen

@flugel said:

I wouldn't mind that unfolding for the Browns at all. Seems pretty easy on the scouting dept too if you get 2 guys from Ohio State, 1 from Cincy and 1 from The School Up North. We'll need to a Safety to take John Johnson's spot too; and this one seems to be a pretty solid tackler (unless I just jinxed him).

We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.

I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland. I didn't see the dreaded lead shoe syndrome. You remember how Hanford Dixson looked to be Hanford, and then in a week he looked like Paul Zukaskis could beat him in a race.

For those who don't remember Zuk, he may have been the biggest clod to ever play for the Browns. He was ok until he had to move his feet more than a few feet.

tiamat63

@gumby73 said:

2022 season/ DL vs The Run Stat Study

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/02/2023-nfl-draft-prospects-dl-run-defense-stat-study/

My issue with raw data like this is the same beef I've had with sites like PFF since Corey Coleman - I need context on assignment vs offensive design. Without it, numbers can be incredibly misleading.

Example, if Im playing closed end and spilling, my raw tackle numbers or TFL might look REAL bad compared to another edge not playing the same role.

Or if I'm getting someone like Benton who is averaging a better negative tackle depth, I want and need to know the why? Is he doing that from a shade or is he 2 gapping? 2 gapping would lead me to believe he's being a disruptive force well above most college NTs. If he's playing a shade and putting up average numbers, then I also go into relative competition, game script, scores, etc etc.

These are nice attempts, first layer metrics at trying to get a handle on production. But at the end of the day it's still a narrow snapshot of a MUCH larger picture.

tiamat63

@ballpeen said:

We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.

I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland.

Aaron Donald, Greg Gaines, SJD, Troy Hill, Jalen Ramsey, Jordan Fuller and Leonard Floyd. Coming from a loaded defense that had him play more limited assignments while Jordan Fuller took over as your MFS.

Johnny J is still a pretty good DB and I'd hate to see him go. But business is business, and at the moment he costs a bit too much.

Flugel

@ballpeen said:

We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.

I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland. I didn't see the dreaded lead shoe syndrome. You remember how Hanford Dixson looked to be Hanford, and then in a week he looked like Paul Zukaskis could beat him in a race.

For those who don't remember Zuk, he may have been the biggest clod to ever play for the Browns. He was ok until he had to move his feet more than a few feet.

This is only my opinion so it doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. I don't think there was a person in the fanbase that wasn't excited about him coming here. Unfortunately, that wasn't the same guy that came here. I think the FO should get just as much credit as you're giving Woods considering how much their chosen ones on the IDL didn't make life easy on the back tiers of the defense.@tiamat63 gives a good explanation of it all in the previous post.

ballpeen

@flugel said:

This is only my opinion so it doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. I don't think there was a person in the fanbase that wasn't excited about him coming here. Unfortunately, that wasn't the same guy that came here. I think the FO should get just as much credit as you're giving Woods considering how much their chosen ones on the IDL didn't make life easy on the back tiers of the defense.@tiamat63 gives a good explanation of it all in the previous post.

I understand, and that may be true. I just don't see any real physical evidence that would explain the drop in play.

gumby73

NFL Combine Snubs https://withthefirstpick.com/2023/02/09/10-biggest-nfl-combine-snubs-2023/ ?

tiamat63

Watching Ojomo from Texas and Keondre Coburn is starting to look VERY promising as well.

Edit:. Watching the Horns almost reminds me of a couple of their dlines from back in the day with Rod Wright, Frank Okam, Tim Crowder and Roy Miller. They've got some big boys up front.

gumby73

Defensive Tackles.. My Pre-Combine hype rankings

1. Jalen Carter, Georgia

2 . Mazi Smith, Michigan

3. Calijah Kancey, Pitt

4. Bryan Bresee, Clemson (medical slide)

5. Siaki Ika, Baylor

6. Keeanu Benton, Wisconsin

7. Byron Young, Alabama

8 Zacch Pickens South Carolina

9 Gervon Dexter Fla.

10. Toss Up! Still look'in

Flugel

@gumby73 said:

NFL Combine Snubs https://withthefirstpick.com/2023/02/09/10-biggest-nfl-combine-snubs-2023/ ?

Thanks for sharing that Gumbs! Looks like quite a few promising young men in that group. That Mafi kid sounds like he'd be an ideal fit for the Bills Mafia.

You know who the biggest draft snub of all time was? It was actually a guy that got invited. Poor Orlando Brown at least allegedly. I had Hoorta all over me because I dared to say just because he can't bench press more than girl scouts or move as fast as parked cars he'll continue to be a damn good football player. Today he's been to a bunch of Pro Bowls at Right and Left Tackle. Even worse, when I watched Jedrick Wills doing a lot of the drills at the combines - he looked like he had the feet, hips and agility to give us what we needed if interested. What assessments measured inner chest and football comprehension though? In his 3rd NFL season, Wills looked like a lost rookie (after what seemed to be a promising rookie season 2 years ago).

Having said all that, I still enjoy watching Indy's Underwear Olympics in early March every year. Make sense? It shouldn't. The only assessment I'd change is that guys shouldn't be allowed to run the 40 out of a sprinters stance they won't ever line up in. This is supposed to evaluate how quick somebody can be on the football field. They SHOULD do a stances and start assessment that goes about 10 or 15 yards. By the end of the day, you'll still know who the quick guys are. Today, the length of the average play doesn't even last as long as the average combine 40 times. That said, Anthony Schwartz can run REALLY fast straight ahead especially when there isn't a defense in front of him.

Good news for some of the snubs is they recently held the HBCU Combines. I hope Andrew Berry sent more than the Broom Closet Coordinator to watch them. Did anyone hear Andy Reid's comment as to why they drafted Mizzou's Nick Bolton a couple years ago? Because we wanted a great tackler and the film didn't lie. Wait a minute! First, you didn't cate if he preferred kittens or puppies Andy? Second, you wanted somebody that was great at tackling for your defense? Third, you used film instead of spread sheets? No wonder why they chased you out of Philly! What have you done lately? Oh yeah, you BEAT Philly in the Super Bowl. Coincidentally, Nick Bolton was around the football long enough to scoop the loose ball and score a TD. You don't say...

ballpeen

I am sure we have the info on them.

Between our own scouts, and the independent scouting services which we buy info from, we have it covered.

Flugel

@gumby73 said:

Defensive Tackles.. My Pre-Combine hype rankings

1. Jalen Carter, Georgia

2 .  Mazi Smith, Michigan

3. Calijah Kancey, Pitt

4. Bryan Bresee, Clemson (medical slide)

5. Siaki Ika, Baylor

6.  Keeanu Benton, Wisconsin

7.  Byron Young, Alabama

8 Zacch Pickens South Carolina

9  Gervon Dexter Fla.

10. Toss Up! Still look'in

Every time I watched Georgia play, Jalen Carter didn't jump off the screen at me nearly as much as Jordan Davis did last year. I haven't looked up his stats or anything but I'll bet Vanderbilt volunteered plenty of tackles for losses and sacks. I know Richard Seymour went to the same football program and had a similar frame; but this guy isn't on that level at all even thought he'll get drafted higher. The most impressive thing about Seymore was the ideal pad height he consistently was able to out-leverage and over-power offensive linemen with in spite of the height. Carter didn't show me that. I will confess I don't waste tine watching many of Georgia's mismatches. I DID Georgia play the day they were praying Ohio State would miss a potential game winning FG.

Flugel

@ballpeen said:

I am sure we have the info on them.

Between our own scouts, and the independent scouting services which we buy info from, we have it covered.

It's been great seeing you back in the mix this frequently again because you post a lot of good stuff and challenge a lot of comments that lead to good discussions Peens. That said, we have what covered? The Browns are a 7-10 football team that didn't have very many productive starters drafted by Andrew Berry on the offensive or defensive lines. Who is the most criticized starter on the offensive line? The 10th overall pick from 2020 who has one of the best Offensive Line coaches in the league today. If he doesn't pan out - are we going to fire another Coach for how badly this FO is drafting?

Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.

In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so.

ballpeen

Having good scouting doesn't mean you will get good players.

In the end I think all the teams work pretty much with the same intel. How they pick is a different matter. My comment was directed more towards scouting and being aware of various players as was mentioned when talking about the combine snubbed players.

I don't think Berry has done all that badly in selecting players. I am of the opinion that if you get 1-2 good players a draft you are doing a decent job.

I do think we are stronger at evaluating some positions over others, but if we really looked at other teams and their selected players, I don't think the Browns lag all that far behind.

Flugel

@ballpeen said:

Having good scouting doesn't mean you will get good players.

In the end I think all the teams work pretty much with the same intel. How they pick is a different matter. My comment was directed more towards scouting and being aware of various players as was mentioned when talking about the combine snubbed players.

I don't think Berry has done all that badly in selecting players. I am of the opinion that if you get 1-2 good players a draft you are doing a decent job.

I do think we are stronger at evaluating some positions over others, but if we really looked at other teams and their selected players, I don't think the Browns lag all that far behind.

Fair enough. I'm just getting impatient; and this is an important draft in the sense we don't have a lot of cap room to keep up the mentality we can just keep solving things with FAs that have proven themselves on other NFL rosters first. Drafting better than we have, would set up a healthier cap in the future and get us to the playoffs far more frequently than we have done so IMO.

ballpeen

I agree. It is very important for all you mention. That is why I mentioned somewhere that I wouldn't mind if we made some "safe' picks, so to speak. Center would be one of those picks. I don't think it is that hard to identify and select a serviceable center in the mid rounds. Harris, if you are sold on that guy is entering the final year of his deal. It will cost to extend him, and we aren't signing Pocic for cap reasons, so we need to draft a guy to take over, if not immediately, the following year.

TexasAg1969

When all is said and done it reverts back to BPA year over after year. What has been accomplished with glamour picks and need picks the last 10 years? Only one I recall also just happened to be BPA and that was Garrett. Any others anyone recalls?

mjp28

@flugel said:

It's been great seeing you back in the mix this frequently again because you post a lot of good stuff and challenge a lot of comments that lead to good discussions Peens. That said, we have what covered? The Browns are a 7-10 football team that didn't have very many productive starters drafted by Andrew Berry on the offensive or defensive lines. Who is the most criticized starter on the offensive line? The 10th overall pick from 2020 who has one of the best Offensive Line coaches in the league today. If he doesn't pan out - are we going to fire another Coach for how badly this FO is drafting?

Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.

In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so.

...... " Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.

In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so." ......

Interesting point of view in a "Bill Parcells way" same with the Harvard comment can he carry that through more in his results.