Jason, Aloy, Ytown, Shep
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Lets hear it about the Browns, your thoughts on the QB, if the defense is for real, our RB situation, our WR realization, and our OL studs [?]......
Discuss....
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Qb way to early to know/ defense maid one hell of a job but when there on the field for 3 out 4 Quaters not many d's would hold up/ need to pick up a free-agent quick to fill leons spot if lewis goes down soon where dead/ wr i hope just need time to gell and still a lot to learn
8-8 maybe 9-7
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
True, he did get to sit for 3 years under the same offensive system behind a HOF QB. When the time came for Rogers to have the job, it was his job. He didn't have to worry about winning the starting job there. Coming into last season the only thing he had to focus on was running the offense and the regular season.
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Whoah, woo, hold up you guys. Didn't you see that Vegasdawg only wanted the really smart guys like him to answer his question? Shame on you guys, this thread is limited to only Jason, Alo, Shep and Ytown.
Get your shit together you others.
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Whoah, woo, hold up you guys. Didn't you see that Vegasdawg only wanted the really smart guys like him to answer his question? Shame on you guys, this thread is limited to only Jason, Alo, Shep and Ytown.
Get your shit together you others.
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Whoah, woo, hold up you guys. Didn't you see that Vegasdawg only wanted the really smart guys like him to answer his question? Shame on you guys, this thread is limited to only Jason, Alo, Shep and Ytown.
Get your shit together you others.
Whoah, woo, hold up you guys. Didn't you see that Vegasdawg only wanted the really smart guys like him to answer his question? Shame on you guys, this thread is limited to only Jason, Alo, Shep and Ytown.
Get your shit together you others.
I was drunk, it was stupid, my reputation can take the hit.
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Whoah, woo, hold up you guys. Didn't you see that Vegasdawg only wanted the really smart guys like him to answer his question? Shame on you guys, this thread is limited to only Jason, Alo, Shep and Ytown.
Get your shit together you others.
I was drunk, it was stupid, my reputation can take the hit.
I was drunk, it was stupid, my reputation can take the hit.
Just don't want this board to go the dickwad "I'm better than the rest or you and only will post to a few people I think are cool card."
No high school clique shit here.
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@inspecta said:
I'm personally offended that I wasn't named in this thread. Don't you see how many thanks I have muthaf*cker, you better recognize!!!Greatness exudes from my every orafice, even my turds have that shine......
Inspecta, that shine is just the excess KY jelly finding its way back out.
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That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
Quarterbacks: In Quinn, the Browns have a well schooled, but inexperienced quarterback. That comes with some pain. He's going to be inconsistent. He'll string together bad throws and bad reads. It just takes some time. That said, I think Quinn playing now probably gives the Browns a better chance to win in 2010. Although, he may be a bit of a liability in the early parts of 2009. And when I say that I mean more so than Derek Anderson.
Had Anderson won the quarterback derby, the Browns might have 1 more win by mid-season. By the end of the season, I'd suspect (barring injury) that Quinn will have surpassed Anderson's somewhat limited ceiling. I believe you've seen the best of Derek Anderson, (about a 6 week period in 2007) and that's not bad. But it's not good enough to build a team around. Even at his peak, he wasn't great. I'm not sure out-dueling Cleo Lemon, Kellen Clemens, and Kyle Boller are the kinds of achievements you put in bold on your resume.
That said this team has to run the ball to be competitive (someone call the cliche police). Jamal Lewis has 2, maybe 3 productive years left in this league. Which is a bit more than most would give him credit for. I'm guessing the last two won't be in Cleveland, but you never know.
James Davis has been encouraging in his learning curve. He presses gaps nicely, creates seams, and picks up blitzes as well as any rookie (which is to say average to below average at best). He seems like a quick study and a hard worker. I think the Browns are going to be happy they have him.
The key here is they have to stay dedicated to the run. They cannot abandon the run regardless of who they play. And Lewis can do that. Davis will help. And I'm interested to see how they use Harrison and Cribbs in the backfield. There's some talent there.
The wide receivers will benefit last by Quinn's getting comfortable on the field. So I don't expect much from them until late in the season, and at that point the local weather is going to hamper how much they can expect to consistently contribute. Quinn works inside out, near to far, however you choose to look at it. Anderson had a lot of success early in his career as a starter by doing just the opposite. Most young quarterbacks try to have the ball in the air for as little time as possible. So, they wait too long to throw, they lean on TE's and backs, throw slants and hitches, you name it. Defenses, in considering that, generally flood the underneath zones with defenders or relentlessly attack the pocket when facing an inexperienced quarterback. Anderson, to his credit, just threw early and threw deep. And that worked great until the defensive Coordinators realized what he was. After the midway point of '07 Anderson saw almost nothing but 2-deep and 4-deep coverages. I only bring that up because Quinn has a real asset on his bench with Derek over there. He can say with authority that when attacking these defenses built to harass a young quarterback you CAN throw over them. And sometimes that's all it takes. Someone who's been there reminding you that you can attack deep. The last thing Quinn wants to do is walk over to the bench and have Derek Anderson tell him that his deep option had man coverage beaten, and he never saw it. That big #3 on the bench is a constant reminder to Quinn that people say he can't throw the deep ball. And I think that works in his favor.
From an offensive line position, I'm a firm believer in leave it alone. Offensive lines only get better by playing together... well by running the ball and playing together. Look at the Giants offensive line. It's one of the best in football. Yet, if they all came up for free agency, only Snee would get top money for his position. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they've basically put out the same 5 guys since 2004. The only change in 5 years has been the left guard 3 seasons ago.
Defense: Ok, here goes. The Browns defense this season is about discipline, gap integrity, fits... Call it what you want, but these guys have to subjugate their own desires and agendas to play this defense. They have to trust they'll be rewarded in the scheme. You have to be able to think to play in this defense. You have to be able to process massive amounts of information... oh and use your instincts. Not everyone has the mental capacity to play defense for Eric Mangini - exeunt Leon Williams, Beau Bell, Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard.
The upside of this defense is a whole lot more quarterback pressure. More non-standard looks up front. And, as time goes by, better and better fits against the run. You saw a glimpse of what this defense can be in the first half of the Vikings game. They'll get better. And as the season goes on, they'll be deeper. By season's end I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You may not have a 12 sack guy. But you'll have 6 or 7 guys with 5 or more. You're going to see 20 different guys on the field throughout the game. The running games will slow down. And the Browns will be hanging in there with teams against whom they are reputedly over-matched.
So, all told, you've got a team, like most teams, that's going to win 4 and lose 4 just based on personnel and match-ups. It's how they handle the other 8 that make the difference. I'd say they'll probably limp into the bye week at about 3-5 maybe 2-6, go something like 4-4 or 5-3 in the last half, and end up in that 6-10 to 8-8 range. Of course that could be the result of a couple of meaningless wins to close out the year. But I think most Browns fans will take that, if what they see by year's end starts to look like real football.
-jj
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
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And Quinn has NOT played a full season, he has played ONE game.
Oh and its not like Rogers didnt have bad games. What did they go last year 6-10?
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
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And Quinn has NOT played a full season, he has played ONE game.
Oh and its not like Rogers didnt have bad games. What did they go last year 6-10?
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
I was talking about this year. Besides, last years debacle shouldnt count for shit and I permanently have erased that from my big dome.
Rodgers D, Quinns D what the hell is the difference? The way I look at it is the Packers team last year was probably better than our team this year. Maybe the same. Rodgers went 6-10. Lets see what Brady does.
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Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
I was talking about this year. Besides, last years debacle shouldnt count for shit and I permanently have erased that from my big dome.
Rodgers D, Quinns D what the hell is the difference? The way I look at it is the Packers team last year was probably better than our team this year. Maybe the same. Rodgers went 6-10. Lets see what Brady does.
Rodgers D, Quinns D what the hell is the difference? The way I look at it is the Packers team last year was probably better than our team this year. Maybe the same. Rodgers went 6-10. Lets see what Brady does.
I though you were implying that Rogers having a couple of bad games resulted in that 6-10 record, which would be pretty far from what happened to GB last year.
But I would say the Packers team last year is certainly a better team, as far as offensive weapons, than this years Browns team.
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
He also had a hell of a lot better cast of players then Quinn has with him. He also was in the same system under a very shape offensive mind since he arrived. And, he was a big question mark until he got the opportunity to prove himself last year.
Now it's time to see it Quinn will develop into a solid QB as the starter for the Browns. I hope the knee jerk reactions every time Rogers made a mistake wasn't the same in Green Bay. This "sky is falling" routine on here is a bit too much. Let's let the guy play and see what we have . Obviously Mangini wasn't as put off by his performance as most on here.
Let's consider the talent around him (or lack of talent around him) and give him an honest chance.
If Edwards runs the route as designed (no int.) and they don't challenge the TD and he runs for a first down instead of trying to throw across his body (and fumbles).........three plays out of a whole game different and everyone here would be saying WOW what a start, this kid has "it".
So, time to chill and stop trying to compare apples and oranges.
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And Quinn has NOT played a full season, he has played ONE game.
Oh and its not like Rogers didnt have bad games. What did they go last year 6-10?
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers is going to be better than Quinn, and obviously already is better. I wouldn't compare Quinn to Rogers. If I could I would compare DA to Rogers because they both have rocket arms. Quinn cannot and will not succeed because of his arm. If it were a perfect world, DA would be the starter and he would be capable of beating defenses other than the ones he saw in early 2007. If that SOB had Kosar's brain we'd be in the SB already.
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Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
I agree it doesn't really work for apple to apples. Every situation and player is going to be different. I was just pointing out that Rogers had struggles too, including against pretty much the same Vikings team BQ just struggled against.
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Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
Yes it does work, cause I said so. Let me compare my apples (Rodgers) and oranges (Quinn cause he is kinda fruity) and feel good about it.
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That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
Quarterbacks: In Quinn, the Browns have a well schooled, but inexperienced quarterback. That comes with some pain. He's going to be inconsistent. He'll string together bad throws and bad reads. It just takes some time. That said, I think Quinn playing now probably gives the Browns a better chance to win in 2010. Although, he may be a bit of a liability in the early parts of 2009. And when I say that I mean more so than Derek Anderson.
Had Anderson won the quarterback derby, the Browns might have 1 more win by mid-season. By the end of the season, I'd suspect (barring injury) that Quinn will have surpassed Anderson's somewhat limited ceiling. I believe you've seen the best of Derek Anderson, (about a 6 week period in 2007) and that's not bad. But it's not good enough to build a team around. Even at his peak, he wasn't great. I'm not sure out-dueling Cleo Lemon, Kellen Clemens, and Kyle Boller are the kinds of achievements you put in bold on your resume.
That said this team has to run the ball to be competitive (someone call the cliche police). Jamal Lewis has 2, maybe 3 productive years left in this league. Which is a bit more than most would give him credit for. I'm guessing the last two won't be in Cleveland, but you never know.
James Davis has been encouraging in his learning curve. He presses gaps nicely, creates seams, and picks up blitzes as well as any rookie (which is to say average to below average at best). He seems like a quick study and a hard worker. I think the Browns are going to be happy they have him.
The key here is they have to stay dedicated to the run. They cannot abandon the run regardless of who they play. And Lewis can do that. Davis will help. And I'm interested to see how they use Harrison and Cribbs in the backfield. There's some talent there.
The wide receivers will benefit last by Quinn's getting comfortable on the field. So I don't expect much from them until late in the season, and at that point the local weather is going to hamper how much they can expect to consistently contribute. Quinn works inside out, near to far, however you choose to look at it. Anderson had a lot of success early in his career as a starter by doing just the opposite. Most young quarterbacks try to have the ball in the air for as little time as possible. So, they wait too long to throw, they lean on TE's and backs, throw slants and hitches, you name it. Defenses, in considering that, generally flood the underneath zones with defenders or relentlessly attack the pocket when facing an inexperienced quarterback. Anderson, to his credit, just threw early and threw deep. And that worked great until the defensive Coordinators realized what he was. After the midway point of '07 Anderson saw almost nothing but 2-deep and 4-deep coverages. I only bring that up because Quinn has a real asset on his bench with Derek over there. He can say with authority that when attacking these defenses built to harass a young quarterback you CAN throw over them. And sometimes that's all it takes. Someone who's been there reminding you that you can attack deep. The last thing Quinn wants to do is walk over to the bench and have Derek Anderson tell him that his deep option had man coverage beaten, and he never saw it. That big #3 on the bench is a constant reminder to Quinn that people say he can't throw the deep ball. And I think that works in his favor.
From an offensive line position, I'm a firm believer in leave it alone. Offensive lines only get better by playing together... well by running the ball and playing together. Look at the Giants offensive line. It's one of the best in football. Yet, if they all came up for free agency, only Snee would get top money for his position. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they've basically put out the same 5 guys since 2004. The only change in 5 years has been the left guard 3 seasons ago.
Defense: Ok, here goes. The Browns defense this season is about discipline, gap integrity, fits... Call it what you want, but these guys have to subjugate their own desires and agendas to play this defense. They have to trust they'll be rewarded in the scheme. You have to be able to think to play in this defense. You have to be able to process massive amounts of information... oh and use your instincts. Not everyone has the mental capacity to play defense for Eric Mangini - exeunt Leon Williams, Beau Bell, Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard.
The upside of this defense is a whole lot more quarterback pressure. More non-standard looks up front. And, as time goes by, better and better fits against the run. You saw a glimpse of what this defense can be in the first half of the Vikings game. They'll get better. And as the season goes on, they'll be deeper. By season's end I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You may not have a 12 sack guy. But you'll have 6 or 7 guys with 5 or more. You're going to see 20 different guys on the field throughout the game. The running games will slow down. And the Browns will be hanging in there with teams against whom they are reputedly over-matched.
So, all told, you've got a team, like most teams, that's going to win 4 and lose 4 just based on personnel and match-ups. It's how they handle the other 8 that make the difference. I'd say they'll probably limp into the bye week at about 3-5 maybe 2-6, go something like 4-4 or 5-3 in the last half, and end up in that 6-10 to 8-8 range. Of course that could be the result of a couple of meaningless wins to close out the year. But I think most Browns fans will take that, if what they see by year's end starts to look like real football.
-jj
That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
etc.
-jj
Excellent post, would you mind if I borrowed it and put it on a Denver site to address some questions they are having over there? I'll credit you and this site, and provided a link if you would like.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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