Jason, Aloy, Ytown, Shep
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And Quinn has NOT played a full season, he has played ONE game.
Oh and its not like Rogers didnt have bad games. What did they go last year 6-10?
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers is going to be better than Quinn, and obviously already is better. I wouldn't compare Quinn to Rogers. If I could I would compare DA to Rogers because they both have rocket arms. Quinn cannot and will not succeed because of his arm. If it were a perfect world, DA would be the starter and he would be capable of beating defenses other than the ones he saw in early 2007. If that SOB had Kosar's brain we'd be in the SB already.
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Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
I agree it doesn't really work for apple to apples. Every situation and player is going to be different. I was just pointing out that Rogers had struggles too, including against pretty much the same Vikings team BQ just struggled against.
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Masters said:
Technically Quinn has played 4 games now
GB did go 6-10 last season, but by really no fault of Rogers. Their D let them down big time last year (hence their complete make over of their D). But Rogers did have bad games last season like you noted. Including a bad one to guess who? That's right, the Vikings. In week 10 had a 15/26, 142 yard (5.5 Y/A), 0TD, 0INT, and 4 sack showing.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
People continue to compare apples and oranges......................................
Let the thing play out and see where we are. quinn certainly doesn't have an all pro supporting cast with him. What we need to find out is can he produce if the talent around him is upgraded in 2010.
Trying to compare him to others in other situations really doesn't work.
Yes it does work, cause I said so. Let me compare my apples (Rodgers) and oranges (Quinn cause he is kinda fruity) and feel good about it.
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That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
Quarterbacks: In Quinn, the Browns have a well schooled, but inexperienced quarterback. That comes with some pain. He's going to be inconsistent. He'll string together bad throws and bad reads. It just takes some time. That said, I think Quinn playing now probably gives the Browns a better chance to win in 2010. Although, he may be a bit of a liability in the early parts of 2009. And when I say that I mean more so than Derek Anderson.
Had Anderson won the quarterback derby, the Browns might have 1 more win by mid-season. By the end of the season, I'd suspect (barring injury) that Quinn will have surpassed Anderson's somewhat limited ceiling. I believe you've seen the best of Derek Anderson, (about a 6 week period in 2007) and that's not bad. But it's not good enough to build a team around. Even at his peak, he wasn't great. I'm not sure out-dueling Cleo Lemon, Kellen Clemens, and Kyle Boller are the kinds of achievements you put in bold on your resume.
That said this team has to run the ball to be competitive (someone call the cliche police). Jamal Lewis has 2, maybe 3 productive years left in this league. Which is a bit more than most would give him credit for. I'm guessing the last two won't be in Cleveland, but you never know.
James Davis has been encouraging in his learning curve. He presses gaps nicely, creates seams, and picks up blitzes as well as any rookie (which is to say average to below average at best). He seems like a quick study and a hard worker. I think the Browns are going to be happy they have him.
The key here is they have to stay dedicated to the run. They cannot abandon the run regardless of who they play. And Lewis can do that. Davis will help. And I'm interested to see how they use Harrison and Cribbs in the backfield. There's some talent there.
The wide receivers will benefit last by Quinn's getting comfortable on the field. So I don't expect much from them until late in the season, and at that point the local weather is going to hamper how much they can expect to consistently contribute. Quinn works inside out, near to far, however you choose to look at it. Anderson had a lot of success early in his career as a starter by doing just the opposite. Most young quarterbacks try to have the ball in the air for as little time as possible. So, they wait too long to throw, they lean on TE's and backs, throw slants and hitches, you name it. Defenses, in considering that, generally flood the underneath zones with defenders or relentlessly attack the pocket when facing an inexperienced quarterback. Anderson, to his credit, just threw early and threw deep. And that worked great until the defensive Coordinators realized what he was. After the midway point of '07 Anderson saw almost nothing but 2-deep and 4-deep coverages. I only bring that up because Quinn has a real asset on his bench with Derek over there. He can say with authority that when attacking these defenses built to harass a young quarterback you CAN throw over them. And sometimes that's all it takes. Someone who's been there reminding you that you can attack deep. The last thing Quinn wants to do is walk over to the bench and have Derek Anderson tell him that his deep option had man coverage beaten, and he never saw it. That big #3 on the bench is a constant reminder to Quinn that people say he can't throw the deep ball. And I think that works in his favor.
From an offensive line position, I'm a firm believer in leave it alone. Offensive lines only get better by playing together... well by running the ball and playing together. Look at the Giants offensive line. It's one of the best in football. Yet, if they all came up for free agency, only Snee would get top money for his position. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they've basically put out the same 5 guys since 2004. The only change in 5 years has been the left guard 3 seasons ago.
Defense: Ok, here goes. The Browns defense this season is about discipline, gap integrity, fits... Call it what you want, but these guys have to subjugate their own desires and agendas to play this defense. They have to trust they'll be rewarded in the scheme. You have to be able to think to play in this defense. You have to be able to process massive amounts of information... oh and use your instincts. Not everyone has the mental capacity to play defense for Eric Mangini - exeunt Leon Williams, Beau Bell, Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard.
The upside of this defense is a whole lot more quarterback pressure. More non-standard looks up front. And, as time goes by, better and better fits against the run. You saw a glimpse of what this defense can be in the first half of the Vikings game. They'll get better. And as the season goes on, they'll be deeper. By season's end I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You may not have a 12 sack guy. But you'll have 6 or 7 guys with 5 or more. You're going to see 20 different guys on the field throughout the game. The running games will slow down. And the Browns will be hanging in there with teams against whom they are reputedly over-matched.
So, all told, you've got a team, like most teams, that's going to win 4 and lose 4 just based on personnel and match-ups. It's how they handle the other 8 that make the difference. I'd say they'll probably limp into the bye week at about 3-5 maybe 2-6, go something like 4-4 or 5-3 in the last half, and end up in that 6-10 to 8-8 range. Of course that could be the result of a couple of meaningless wins to close out the year. But I think most Browns fans will take that, if what they see by year's end starts to look like real football.
-jj
That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
etc.
-jj
Excellent post, would you mind if I borrowed it and put it on a Denver site to address some questions they are having over there? I'll credit you and this site, and provided a link if you would like.
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I have to say that JJ hit a home run as far as i'm concerned. I'm glad Vegas waited until most of the knee jerk reactions from Sunday were spewed before he started this post.
First, comparing QBs from other teams like Rogers to Quinn is apples to oranges because they are totally different QBs running different systems and have to play with a different level of talent around them. What we need to find out is what we have in Quinn. You need to observe his development as a NFL QB. So he's a dink and dunker, so is Brady and you'll see it in Orton this week in Denver. Only thing is Denver will spread a team out more then the Browns who want to establish the run.
Fans need to understand the process this team is going through. By the end of the season they will have turned over 50% of the roster. We had zero depth and were bad on special teams (excluding Cribbs). This team is still trying to determine who their core players are and what needs to be done to increase the talent level around them. The fact is, the Browns aren't as good as the Steelers or Ravens. But, I believe we are closer then last year and part of that evaluation process is who will lead this team. Without knowing if Quinn can lead the team you go into 2010 blind again at your most important position. So, the process has to play out and as JJ noted, it could be painful at times. The maturation and development of a QB takes time. Maybe not when a Rothlesburger walks into a team with super bowl talent, but when a QB starts with a team with margainable talent, it is a process.
As far as the offensive line; they will get better and schemes will be developed to help the weakness of the right side. I don't think you change it, at this point, either. You will see TE or H-Back chipping and swing passes, quick outs and screens to slow down the rush from that side. You will see more 3 step drops and yes more dinks and dumps. As Quinn matures and the games slows down he will read the defenses better and be able to take his shots when defenses cheat up or he sees man on the outside with no over the top help. Patience will be needed. I believe everyone realized that this team isn't talented enough to go to the super bowl this year. So it's time to chill and let the season unfold.
As far as the defense; besides a lack of talent, the whole may be better then the sum of the parts. I do like Ryan and what he is attempting to do. If everybody buys in this will be a vastly improved defense. I would expect, as the season progresses, you will see a lot of different personnel groupings for different schemes. I believe you will also see a better rotation of players so the defense on the field in the 4th quarter isn't dragging ass. But, as of this point, the rookies aren't ready to be thrown into the fire so the personnel groupings were somewhat basic and limited. I did like the different fronts and different looks the defense showed. I think once they got tired, in the second half, some players reverted back to playing as individuals and stepped outside of the basic concept Ryan wants this defense to be. Players lost contain and gap integrity and that is what cost the game. But, in time, that will take care of itself. BTW, tired players tackle poorly as we witnessed. They need better rotations to prevent this.
All in all, I was dissappointed with the loss but wasn't dissappointed with the team. I believe they are moving in the right direction. There will be bumps and it will be a learning process, but I believe we will see a better product on the field and a light at the end of the tunnel.
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Rogers didn't play much his 1st two years and did pretty good his first season under the helm.
Rogers is going to be better than Quinn, and obviously already is better. I wouldn't compare Quinn to Rogers. If I could I would compare DA to Rogers because they both have rocket arms. Quinn cannot and will not succeed because of his arm. If it were a perfect world, DA would be the starter and he would be capable of beating defenses other than the ones he saw in early 2007. If that SOB had Kosar's brain we'd be in the SB already.
Rogers is going to be better than Quinn, and obviously already is better. I wouldn't compare Quinn to Rogers. If I could I would compare DA to Rogers because they both have rocket arms. Quinn cannot and will not succeed because of his arm. If it were a perfect world, DA would be the starter and he would be capable of beating defenses other than the ones he saw in early 2007. If that SOB had Kosar's brain we'd be in the SB already.
= fishing for an argument.
incredibly weak.
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@shepwrite said:
Quinn is smart, cute, athletic, about the same size, excellent cook, great dancer, was drafted in almost the same spot, and had to sit for a couple years.Can't see why we'd compare them.
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@shepwrite said:
Anderson and Rodgers? Are you currently really, really drunk?Rodgers got like a 38 on his Wonderlic, runs a 4.6, is about 6'2", and is absurdly accurate.
Yeah, he's just like our lovable doofus.
Quinn is smart, athletic, about the same size, was drafted in almost the same spot, and had to sit for a couple years.
Can't see why we'd compare them.
Both Rogers and DA have rocket arms. That is the only comparison. Rogers is what we'd have with DA/BQ hybrid.
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That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
etc.
-jj
Excellent post, would you mind if I borrowed it and put it on a Denver site to address some questions they are having over there? I'll credit you and this site, and provided a link if you would like.
Excellent post, would you mind if I borrowed it and put it on a Denver site to address some questions they are having over there? I'll credit you and this site, and provided a link if you would like.
Do with it what you will.
-jj
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Now without further permissions i shall inject my non-elitist venom on dawgs semi-private thread of the elite....hehehehe
As a big BQ fan from his days at ND i can say i was pretty disappointed sunday not just in BQ but the whole offensive scheme honestly.. as romeo would have said "it is wat it is" and that IS currently dysfunctional in part because we were playing what appears to be a real contender (that we can beat)and in part from not having the proper timing/routes/personel to run this setup correctly...
We can discuss QBs all day but it doesnt really matter who is currently under center for the browns we lack speed ,savvy and talent where it counts the most to a QB:
(1)We lack a serious deep threat BE is unfortunately still a jokeand is fooling nobody on opposing defenses 1 cover guy is fairly adequate...
(2)Our WRs in general lack the ability to seperate either short ,medium or long range routes..route running is also questionable..along with responsiveness which is where our real problem is at imo..
(3)The offensive line is currently inadequate to run to the right side with any confidence/consistancy/authority or even to protect the QB..
(4)A predictable simpletons vanilla offensive game plan...with little room or ability to adapt quickly on the fly..
All of these things can be corrected and hopefully are being addressed as we type...i dunno if i can take being beat by the bronco's...
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That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
Quarterbacks: In Quinn, the Browns have a well schooled, but inexperienced quarterback. That comes with some pain. He's going to be inconsistent. He'll string together bad throws and bad reads. It just takes some time. That said, I think Quinn playing now probably gives the Browns a better chance to win in 2010. Although, he may be a bit of a liability in the early parts of 2009. And when I say that I mean more so than Derek Anderson.
Had Anderson won the quarterback derby, the Browns might have 1 more win by mid-season. By the end of the season, I'd suspect (barring injury) that Quinn will have surpassed Anderson's somewhat limited ceiling. I believe you've seen the best of Derek Anderson, (about a 6 week period in 2007) and that's not bad. But it's not good enough to build a team around. Even at his peak, he wasn't great. I'm not sure out-dueling Cleo Lemon, Kellen Clemens, and Kyle Boller are the kinds of achievements you put in bold on your resume.
That said this team has to run the ball to be competitive (someone call the cliche police). Jamal Lewis has 2, maybe 3 productive years left in this league. Which is a bit more than most would give him credit for. I'm guessing the last two won't be in Cleveland, but you never know.
James Davis has been encouraging in his learning curve. He presses gaps nicely, creates seams, and picks up blitzes as well as any rookie (which is to say average to below average at best). He seems like a quick study and a hard worker. I think the Browns are going to be happy they have him.
The key here is they have to stay dedicated to the run. They cannot abandon the run regardless of who they play. And Lewis can do that. Davis will help. And I'm interested to see how they use Harrison and Cribbs in the backfield. There's some talent there.
The wide receivers will benefit last by Quinn's getting comfortable on the field. So I don't expect much from them until late in the season, and at that point the local weather is going to hamper how much they can expect to consistently contribute. Quinn works inside out, near to far, however you choose to look at it. Anderson had a lot of success early in his career as a starter by doing just the opposite. Most young quarterbacks try to have the ball in the air for as little time as possible. So, they wait too long to throw, they lean on TE's and backs, throw slants and hitches, you name it. Defenses, in considering that, generally flood the underneath zones with defenders or relentlessly attack the pocket when facing an inexperienced quarterback. Anderson, to his credit, just threw early and threw deep. And that worked great until the defensive Coordinators realized what he was. After the midway point of '07 Anderson saw almost nothing but 2-deep and 4-deep coverages. I only bring that up because Quinn has a real asset on his bench with Derek over there. He can say with authority that when attacking these defenses built to harass a young quarterback you CAN throw over them. And sometimes that's all it takes. Someone who's been there reminding you that you can attack deep. The last thing Quinn wants to do is walk over to the bench and have Derek Anderson tell him that his deep option had man coverage beaten, and he never saw it. That big #3 on the bench is a constant reminder to Quinn that people say he can't throw the deep ball. And I think that works in his favor.
From an offensive line position, I'm a firm believer in leave it alone. Offensive lines only get better by playing together... well by running the ball and playing together. Look at the Giants offensive line. It's one of the best in football. Yet, if they all came up for free agency, only Snee would get top money for his position. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they've basically put out the same 5 guys since 2004. The only change in 5 years has been the left guard 3 seasons ago.
Defense: Ok, here goes. The Browns defense this season is about discipline, gap integrity, fits... Call it what you want, but these guys have to subjugate their own desires and agendas to play this defense. They have to trust they'll be rewarded in the scheme. You have to be able to think to play in this defense. You have to be able to process massive amounts of information... oh and use your instincts. Not everyone has the mental capacity to play defense for Eric Mangini - exeunt Leon Williams, Beau Bell, Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard.
The upside of this defense is a whole lot more quarterback pressure. More non-standard looks up front. And, as time goes by, better and better fits against the run. You saw a glimpse of what this defense can be in the first half of the Vikings game. They'll get better. And as the season goes on, they'll be deeper. By season's end I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You may not have a 12 sack guy. But you'll have 6 or 7 guys with 5 or more. You're going to see 20 different guys on the field throughout the game. The running games will slow down. And the Browns will be hanging in there with teams against whom they are reputedly over-matched.
So, all told, you've got a team, like most teams, that's going to win 4 and lose 4 just based on personnel and match-ups. It's how they handle the other 8 that make the difference. I'd say they'll probably limp into the bye week at about 3-5 maybe 2-6, go something like 4-4 or 5-3 in the last half, and end up in that 6-10 to 8-8 range. Of course that could be the result of a couple of meaningless wins to close out the year. But I think most Browns fans will take that, if what they see by year's end starts to look like real football.
-jj
That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
Quarterbacks: In Quinn, the Browns have a well schooled, but inexperienced quarterback. That comes with some pain. He's going to be inconsistent. He'll string together bad throws and bad reads. It just takes some time. That said, I think Quinn playing now probably gives the Browns a better chance to win in 2010. Although, he may be a bit of a liability in the early parts of 2009. And when I say that I mean more so than Derek Anderson.
Had Anderson won the quarterback derby, the Browns might have 1 more win by mid-season. By the end of the season, I'd suspect (barring injury) that Quinn will have surpassed Anderson's somewhat limited ceiling. I believe you've seen the best of Derek Anderson, (about a 6 week period in 2007) and that's not bad. But it's not good enough to build a team around. Even at his peak, he wasn't great. I'm not sure out-dueling Cleo Lemon, Kellen Clemens, and Kyle Boller are the kinds of achievements you put in bold on your resume.
That said this team has to run the ball to be competitive (someone call the cliche police). Jamal Lewis has 2, maybe 3 productive years left in this league. Which is a bit more than most would give him credit for. I'm guessing the last two won't be in Cleveland, but you never know.
James Davis has been encouraging in his learning curve. He presses gaps nicely, creates seams, and picks up blitzes as well as any rookie (which is to say average to below average at best). He seems like a quick study and a hard worker. I think the Browns are going to be happy they have him.
The key here is they have to stay dedicated to the run. They cannot abandon the run regardless of who they play. And Lewis can do that. Davis will help. And I'm interested to see how they use Harrison and Cribbs in the backfield. There's some talent there.
The wide receivers will benefit last by Quinn's getting comfortable on the field. So I don't expect much from them until late in the season, and at that point the local weather is going to hamper how much they can expect to consistently contribute. Quinn works inside out, near to far, however you choose to look at it. Anderson had a lot of success early in his career as a starter by doing just the opposite. Most young quarterbacks try to have the ball in the air for as little time as possible. So, they wait too long to throw, they lean on TE's and backs, throw slants and hitches, you name it. Defenses, in considering that, generally flood the underneath zones with defenders or relentlessly attack the pocket when facing an inexperienced quarterback. Anderson, to his credit, just threw early and threw deep. And that worked great until the defensive Coordinators realized what he was. After the midway point of '07 Anderson saw almost nothing but 2-deep and 4-deep coverages. I only bring that up because Quinn has a real asset on his bench with Derek over there. He can say with authority that when attacking these defenses built to harass a young quarterback you CAN throw over them. And sometimes that's all it takes. Someone who's been there reminding you that you can attack deep. The last thing Quinn wants to do is walk over to the bench and have Derek Anderson tell him that his deep option had man coverage beaten, and he never saw it. That big #3 on the bench is a constant reminder to Quinn that people say he can't throw the deep ball. And I think that works in his favor.
From an offensive line position, I'm a firm believer in leave it alone. Offensive lines only get better by playing together... well by running the ball and playing together. Look at the Giants offensive line. It's one of the best in football. Yet, if they all came up for free agency, only Snee would get top money for his position. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they've basically put out the same 5 guys since 2004. The only change in 5 years has been the left guard 3 seasons ago.
Defense: Ok, here goes. The Browns defense this season is about discipline, gap integrity, fits... Call it what you want, but these guys have to subjugate their own desires and agendas to play this defense. They have to trust they'll be rewarded in the scheme. You have to be able to think to play in this defense. You have to be able to process massive amounts of information... oh and use your instincts. Not everyone has the mental capacity to play defense for Eric Mangini - exeunt Leon Williams, Beau Bell, Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard.
The upside of this defense is a whole lot more quarterback pressure. More non-standard looks up front. And, as time goes by, better and better fits against the run. You saw a glimpse of what this defense can be in the first half of the Vikings game. They'll get better. And as the season goes on, they'll be deeper. By season's end I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You may not have a 12 sack guy. But you'll have 6 or 7 guys with 5 or more. You're going to see 20 different guys on the field throughout the game. The running games will slow down. And the Browns will be hanging in there with teams against whom they are reputedly over-matched.
So, all told, you've got a team, like most teams, that's going to win 4 and lose 4 just based on personnel and match-ups. It's how they handle the other 8 that make the difference. I'd say they'll probably limp into the bye week at about 3-5 maybe 2-6, go something like 4-4 or 5-3 in the last half, and end up in that 6-10 to 8-8 range. Of course that could be the result of a couple of meaningless wins to close out the year. But I think most Browns fans will take that, if what they see by year's end starts to look like real football.
-jj
Jason, while I agree with what you are saying regarding the defense, this defense still lacks speed and in the NFL all the top defenses have speed, we are very slow still at the defensive ends and linebacker positions and this lack of speed will be exposed when playing teams with more than one offensive playmaker. we also lack what Pitt and Baltimore have which is a top playmaking safety, we have nobody that can do the things a Polamalu or Ed Reed does from the safety position.
While we may scheme to have four or five different players with 4-5 sacks each we do not have that guy on defense that can turn a game around, for the most the guys we have plugged in from the Jets are good NFL players but none are what you would call playmakers or guys a offense have to game plan around, Rogers is the only guy on this defense who is a star.
While I agree with your logic on a offensive line playing together is important I just don't feel we have the talent on this line to be a above average OL, St.Clair, womack and Hadnot are journeyman players and Mack is a rookie who will struggle and Steinbach is a better pass protector than run blocker.
Regarding BQ until he starts taking shots downfield and stop checking down looking for the tight end or slot receiver we are not going to beat any good teams and teams are going to put 8 men in the box and make it difficult to run.
When Robert Royal and Mike Fuerry are the 2 guys you are tageting most of your passes to its going to be a long season, Braylon Edwards is your best player on offense and the guy you have to get the ball to.
Brady had a terrible game and if Derek Anderson would have had a game like BQ had the fans would be screeming yet all I keep hearing is excuses and its BQ's 4th career start.
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That's an awful lot for one post. Hell, I have trouble answering "What time is it?" in less than 4 paragraphs. But, I'll give it a shot.
Quarterbacks: In Quinn, the Browns have a well schooled, but inexperienced quarterback. That comes with some pain. He's going to be inconsistent. He'll string together bad throws and bad reads. It just takes some time. That said, I think Quinn playing now probably gives the Browns a better chance to win in 2010. Although, he may be a bit of a liability in the early parts of 2009. And when I say that I mean more so than Derek Anderson.
Had Anderson won the quarterback derby, the Browns might have 1 more win by mid-season. By the end of the season, I'd suspect (barring injury) that Quinn will have surpassed Anderson's somewhat limited ceiling. I believe you've seen the best of Derek Anderson, (about a 6 week period in 2007) and that's not bad. But it's not good enough to build a team around. Even at his peak, he wasn't great. I'm not sure out-dueling Cleo Lemon, Kellen Clemens, and Kyle Boller are the kinds of achievements you put in bold on your resume.
That said this team has to run the ball to be competitive (someone call the cliche police). Jamal Lewis has 2, maybe 3 productive years left in this league. Which is a bit more than most would give him credit for. I'm guessing the last two won't be in Cleveland, but you never know.
James Davis has been encouraging in his learning curve. He presses gaps nicely, creates seams, and picks up blitzes as well as any rookie (which is to say average to below average at best). He seems like a quick study and a hard worker. I think the Browns are going to be happy they have him.
The key here is they have to stay dedicated to the run. They cannot abandon the run regardless of who they play. And Lewis can do that. Davis will help. And I'm interested to see how they use Harrison and Cribbs in the backfield. There's some talent there.
The wide receivers will benefit last by Quinn's getting comfortable on the field. So I don't expect much from them until late in the season, and at that point the local weather is going to hamper how much they can expect to consistently contribute. Quinn works inside out, near to far, however you choose to look at it. Anderson had a lot of success early in his career as a starter by doing just the opposite. Most young quarterbacks try to have the ball in the air for as little time as possible. So, they wait too long to throw, they lean on TE's and backs, throw slants and hitches, you name it. Defenses, in considering that, generally flood the underneath zones with defenders or relentlessly attack the pocket when facing an inexperienced quarterback. Anderson, to his credit, just threw early and threw deep. And that worked great until the defensive Coordinators realized what he was. After the midway point of '07 Anderson saw almost nothing but 2-deep and 4-deep coverages. I only bring that up because Quinn has a real asset on his bench with Derek over there. He can say with authority that when attacking these defenses built to harass a young quarterback you CAN throw over them. And sometimes that's all it takes. Someone who's been there reminding you that you can attack deep. The last thing Quinn wants to do is walk over to the bench and have Derek Anderson tell him that his deep option had man coverage beaten, and he never saw it. That big #3 on the bench is a constant reminder to Quinn that people say he can't throw the deep ball. And I think that works in his favor.
From an offensive line position, I'm a firm believer in leave it alone. Offensive lines only get better by playing together... well by running the ball and playing together. Look at the Giants offensive line. It's one of the best in football. Yet, if they all came up for free agency, only Snee would get top money for his position. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they've basically put out the same 5 guys since 2004. The only change in 5 years has been the left guard 3 seasons ago.
Defense: Ok, here goes. The Browns defense this season is about discipline, gap integrity, fits... Call it what you want, but these guys have to subjugate their own desires and agendas to play this defense. They have to trust they'll be rewarded in the scheme. You have to be able to think to play in this defense. You have to be able to process massive amounts of information... oh and use your instincts. Not everyone has the mental capacity to play defense for Eric Mangini - exeunt Leon Williams, Beau Bell, Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard.
The upside of this defense is a whole lot more quarterback pressure. More non-standard looks up front. And, as time goes by, better and better fits against the run. You saw a glimpse of what this defense can be in the first half of the Vikings game. They'll get better. And as the season goes on, they'll be deeper. By season's end I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You may not have a 12 sack guy. But you'll have 6 or 7 guys with 5 or more. You're going to see 20 different guys on the field throughout the game. The running games will slow down. And the Browns will be hanging in there with teams against whom they are reputedly over-matched.
So, all told, you've got a team, like most teams, that's going to win 4 and lose 4 just based on personnel and match-ups. It's how they handle the other 8 that make the difference. I'd say they'll probably limp into the bye week at about 3-5 maybe 2-6, go something like 4-4 or 5-3 in the last half, and end up in that 6-10 to 8-8 range. Of course that could be the result of a couple of meaningless wins to close out the year. But I think most Browns fans will take that, if what they see by year's end starts to look like real football.
-jj
Jason, while I agree with what you are saying regarding the defense, this defense still lacks speed and in the NFL all the top defenses have speed, we are very slow still at the defensive ends and linebacker positions and this lack of speed will be exposed when playing teams with more than one offensive playmaker. we also lack what Pitt and Baltimore have which is a top playmaking safety, we have nobody that can do the things a Polamalu or Ed Reed does from the safety position.
While we may scheme to have four or five different players with 4-5 sacks each we do not have that guy on defense that can turn a game around, for the most the guys we have plugged in from the Jets are good NFL players but none are what you would call playmakers or guys a offense have to game plan around, Rogers is the only guy on this defense who is a star.
While I agree with your logic on a offensive line playing together is important I just don't feel we have the talent on this line to be a above average OL, St.Clair, womack and Hadnot are journeyman players and Mack is a rookie who will struggle and Steinbach is a better pass protector than run blocker.
Regarding BQ until he starts taking shots downfield and stop checking down looking for the tight end or slot receiver we are not going to beat any good teams and teams are going to put 8 men in the box and make it difficult to run.
When Robert Royal and Mike Fuerry are the 2 guys you are tageting most of your passes to its going to be a long season, Braylon Edwards is your best player on offense and the guy you have to get the ball to.
Brady had a terrible game and if Derek Anderson would have had a game like BQ had the fans would be screeming yet all I keep hearing is excuses and its BQ's 4th career start.
Brady had a terrible game and if Derek Anderson would have had a game like BQ had the fans would be screeming yet all I keep hearing is excuses and its BQ's 4th career start.
Brady is getting the same leash DA had. We all jumped on the DA bandwagon, right up until we put the game in his hands against Cin. Maybe even the pick 6 at AZ. We all made excuses and all gave him a leash. Some people like to rewrite that history, but I was here and I saw it unfold. We were happy as shit to have DA throwing lasers for TD's. We were on the map.
If we're all being honest, DA has had a ton of excuses made for him: he had a head injury, no JJ, no running game, the team sucked, BE dropped passes, Stallworth wasn't playing, no preseason chemistry, no preseason game experience, we played Dallas, ect...
There is some credence to the thought that we may have given up on DA early because of some of his circumstances - he's young, can develop, needs more players around him, ect... But he hadn't shown any improvement in his deficiencies uncovered in the latter part of 2007, and in fact seemed as if he never worked on them, or couldn't get better. He made some bad plays at the worst times. We could count on him to do that.
Brady is facing a coverage scheme he needs to figure out - flooded zones short, with help over the top. DA faced variances of the Cover 2 and 3. He didn't figure them out soon enough, after an entire offseason last year. Could he be better with Daboll? Well, if Quinn doesn't show improvement we may find out later this season.
Either way this anticipation and not knowing what we really have @ QB is not a fun place to be as a fan
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@inspecta said:
Yet you expect us to be as equally critical of a QB making his 4th start as we were of one making his 19th start?!?!It's about the DA backers who are now getting their "revenge" for having to listen to all of us bitch about his play last year. Now it's their turn to bitch and piss and moan, and they are not going to be denyed.
Exactly. Steel on target.
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@inspecta said:
Now it's their turn to bitch and piss and moan, and they are not going to be denyed. They were all happy as shit Sunday played out like it did. They hope they get to do it again Sunday. Well just one DA fag in particular, but I think it bleeds over to the others just to a lesser extent.I just can't believe that we played the Purple People Eaters of the late 60's in week #1 and now we ... err ... Brady has to face the Orange Crush from 1978, and the 2000 Raven Defense thereafter ...
Don't they know he is only a rookie?
Next up:
Steel Curtain defense in week 6
1962 Packers defense in week 7
Buddy Ryan's blitzing '46' defense in week 8
Hank Strams 'Triple stack' defense down the road followed by Jack Tatum and company in week 16.
This ain't going to be a cake walk ...
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@inspecta said:
Now it's their turn to bitch and piss and moan, and they are not going to be denyed. They were all happy as shit Sunday played out like it did. They hope they get to do it again Sunday. Well just one DA fag in particular, but I think it bleeds over to the others just to a lesser extent.I just can't believe that we played the Purple People Eaters of the late 60's in week #1 and now we ... err ... Brady has to face the Orange Crush from 1978, and the 2000 Raven Defense thereafter ...
Don't they know he is only a rookie?
Next up:
Steel Curtain defense in week 6
1962 Packers defense in week 7
Buddy Ryan's blitzing '46' defense in week 8
Hank Strams 'Triple stack' defense down the road followed by Jack Tatum and company in week 16.
This ain't going to be a cake walk ...
I just can't believe that we played the Purple People Eaters of the late 60's in week #1 and now we ... err ... Brady has to face the Orange Crush from 1978, and the 2000 Raven Defense thereafter ...
Don't they know he is only a rookie?
Next up:
Steel Curtain defense in week 6
1962 Packers defense in week 7
Buddy Ryan's blitzing '46' defense in week 8
Hank Strams 'Triple stack' defense down the road followed by Jack Tatum and company in week 16.
This ain't going to be a cake walk ...
It's going to be okay. Just think - we could be worse. DA could be the starter.
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
@inspecta said:
Your so full of shit. In 07 when we were winning the only thing we critiqued was DA getting us in a hole early on. But he would make up for it. When we played good teams he would shit the bed and we would go "aww shucks" it wasn't until the 2nd Cincy game where he took the mother of all dumps in the bed did we as a fan base really turn on him. It was then and only then we looked back at that glorious season did we say "Hey wait a minute....everybody we beat.....sucked!!" That was the first indication that DA might be the adage "everything that glitters ain't always gold" personified. Then in 2008 when the NFL treated us to 5 primetime games and one of the hardest schedules in the league we saw a consistently shitty DA. When he had to face the top talent of the NFL week in and week out he was woefully overmatched. All of this is over a 27 game stretch. Like I said we didn't start getting really critical of him until the 2nd Cincy game of 07 (for those keeping score that was around his 19th start). Yet you expect us to be as equally critical of a QB making his 4th start as we were of one making his 19th start?!?! Makes no f*cking sense.However that's not the issue here. All of this shit stems from the long 8 month argument we've been beating ourselves over the head with. It's not about looking at the game objectively. It's about the DA backers who are now getting their "revenge" for having to listen to all of us bitch about his play last year. Now it's their turn to bitch and piss and moan, and they are not going to be denyed. They were all happy as shit Sunday played out like it did. They hope they get to do it again Sunday. Well just one DA fag in particular, but I think it bleeds over to the others just to a lesser extent.
No Inspecta you are the one full of sh*t, you were on here with 1,000 post from the 1st of the year telling everybody how terrible DA is and how much better BQ would be..............Well Be careful what you ask for........sometimes what you want is not as good as you think you are getting
BQ SUCKED this week and he will continue to suck when he plays a good defensive team, alot of guys acted like he was ready for the Hall of Fame after he dink and dunked on a poor Denver defense last year, then made excuses about his performance in the Buffalo and Houston games when with just a little film on him he SUCKED, now if he goes out this week and plays good against a poor Denver team we will once again hear all the BQ praises, yet you are the first person to say in 2007 we played a bunch of bums.......Tell me what defense other than a poor Broncos defense has Brady done anything against?
-
I just can't believe that we played the Purple People Eaters of the late 60's in week #1 and now we ... err ... Brady has to face the Orange Crush from 1978, and the 2000 Raven Defense thereafter ...
Don't they know he is only a rookie?
Next up:
Steel Curtain defense in week 6
1962 Packers defense in week 7
Buddy Ryan's blitzing '46' defense in week 8
Hank Strams 'Triple stack' defense down the road followed by Jack Tatum and company in week 16.
This ain't going to be a cake walk ...
It's going to be okay. Just think - we could be worse. DA could be the starter.
It's going to be okay. Just think - we could be worse. DA could be the starter.
You must mean, 'Brian Sipe'
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@inspecta said:
Your so full of shit. In 07 when we were winning the only thing we critiqued was DA getting us in a hole early on. But he would make up for it. When we played good teams he would shit the bed and we would go "aww shucks" it wasn't until the 2nd Cincy game where he took the mother of all dumps in the bed did we as a fan base really turn on him. It was then and only then we looked back at that glorious season did we say "Hey wait a minute....everybody we beat.....sucked!!" That was the first indication that DA might be the adage "everything that glitters ain't always gold" personified. Then in 2008 when the NFL treated us to 5 primetime games and one of the hardest schedules in the league we saw a consistently shitty DA. When he had to face the top talent of the NFL week in and week out he was woefully overmatched. All of this is over a 27 game stretch. Like I said we didn't start getting really critical of him until the 2nd Cincy game of 07 (for those keeping score that was around his 19th start). Yet you expect us to be as equally critical of a QB making his 4th start as we were of one making his 19th start?!?! Makes no f*cking sense.However that's not the issue here. All of this shit stems from the long 8 month argument we've been beating ourselves over the head with. It's not about looking at the game objectively. It's about the DA backers who are now getting their "revenge" for having to listen to all of us bitch about his play last year. Now it's their turn to bitch and piss and moan, and they are not going to be denyed. They were all happy as shit Sunday played out like it did. They hope they get to do it again Sunday. Well just one DA fag in particular, but I think it bleeds over to the others just to a lesser extent.
No Inspecta you are the one full of sh*t, you were on here with 1,000 post from the 1st of the year telling everybody how terrible DA is and how much better BQ would be..............Well Be careful what you ask for........sometimes what you want is not as good as you think you are getting
BQ SUCKED this week and he will continue to suck when he plays a good defensive team, alot of guys acted like he was ready for the Hall of Fame after he dink and dunked on a poor Denver defense last year, then made excuses about his performance in the Buffalo and Houston games when with just a little film on him he SUCKED, now if he goes out this week and plays good against a poor Denver team we will once again hear all the BQ praises, yet you are the first person to say in 2007 we played a bunch of bums.......Tell me what defense other than a poor Broncos defense has Brady done anything against?
No Inspecta you are the one full of sh*t, you were on here with 1,000 post from the 1st of the year telling everybody how terrible DA is and how much better BQ would be..............Well Be careful what you ask for........sometimes what you want is not as good as you think you are getting
BQ SUCKED this week and he will continue to suck when he plays a good defensive team, alot of guys acted like he was ready for the Hall of Fame after he dink and dunked on a poor Denver defense last year, then made excuses about his performance in the Buffalo and Houston games when with just a little film on him he SUCKED, now if he goes out this week and plays good against a poor Denver team we will once again hear all the BQ praises, yet you are the first person to say in 2007 we played a bunch of bums.......Tell me what defense other than a poor Broncos defense has Brady done anything against?
So why don't you share one of those examples from eaerly in 2007 about DA, cause I sure don't remember them.
Since when is a legitimate broken finger on his throwing hand that required surgery a made up excuse for Quinn's passing issues in the BUF and HOU games?
Tell me, how many defenses has Brady actually faced in the regular NFL game?
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@inspecta said:
Your so full of shit. In 07 when we were winning the only thing we critiqued was DA getting us in a hole early on. But he would make up for it. When we played good teams he would shit the bed and we would go "aww shucks" it wasn't until the 2nd Cincy game where he took the mother of all dumps in the bed did we as a fan base really turn on him. It was then and only then we looked back at that glorious season did we say "Hey wait a minute....everybody we beat.....sucked!!" That was the first indication that DA might be the adage "everything that glitters ain't always gold" personified. Then in 2008 when the NFL treated us to 5 primetime games and one of the hardest schedules in the league we saw a consistently shitty DA. When he had to face the top talent of the NFL week in and week out he was woefully overmatched. All of this is over a 27 game stretch. Like I said we didn't start getting really critical of him until the 2nd Cincy game of 07 (for those keeping score that was around his 19th start). Yet you expect us to be as equally critical of a QB making his 4th start as we were of one making his 19th start?!?! Makes no f*cking sense.However that's not the issue here. All of this shit stems from the long 8 month argument we've been beating ourselves over the head with. It's not about looking at the game objectively. It's about the DA backers who are now getting their "revenge" for having to listen to all of us bitch about his play last year. Now it's their turn to bitch and piss and moan, and they are not going to be denyed. They were all happy as shit Sunday played out like it did. They hope they get to do it again Sunday. Well just one DA fag in particular, but I think it bleeds over to the others just to a lesser extent.
No Inspecta you are the one full of sh*t, you were on here with 1,000 post from the 1st of the year telling everybody how terrible DA is and how much better BQ would be..............Well Be careful what you ask for........sometimes what you want is not as good as you think you are getting
BQ SUCKED this week and he will continue to suck when he plays a good defensive team, alot of guys acted like he was ready for the Hall of Fame after he dink and dunked on a poor Denver defense last year, then made excuses about his performance in the Buffalo and Houston games when with just a little film on him he SUCKED, now if he goes out this week and plays good against a poor Denver team we will once again hear all the BQ praises, yet you are the first person to say in 2007 we played a bunch of bums.......Tell me what defense other than a poor Broncos defense has Brady done anything against?
..Tell me what defense other than a poor Broncos defense has Brady done anything against?
Can't have it both ways. You're ridiculing excuses as to why Quinn didn't play better, then excusing his good play away by chalking it up to bad defenses.
The bottom line is its too early to tell on Quinn. If Quinn has a good game against Denver, there may be reason to hope, but still too early to tell.
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