Has The Winslow Trade Hurt Quinns Development?
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Jason, did you apply when they fired Romeo last year?
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Lets blame trading Winslow on Quinn's poor performance. Man you Quinn Fags just are wierd.
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Lets blame trading Winslow on Quinn's poor performance. Man you Quinn Fags just are wierd.
Lets blame trading Winslow on Quinn's poor performance. Man you Quinn Fags just are wierd.
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Thing is if we traded Winslow for a better running game why didn't we draft a RB or RT capable of doing something instead of two WR's. McCoy was there, Greene was there. Now maybe they think Davis is just as good, that is yet to be seen, those guys are gonna be pretty good IMO.
Also we're still a few years away from a good running game. The right side of the line isn't very good, Jamal is on his last leg, why not at least keep K2 this season and help build Quinns confidence. Nothing they did this season bolstered our running game so why trade K2 because he's a liability in it. On third downs K2 was our best option and Quinn doesn't have that safety valve now.
I would argue that the Browns are weeks away from a good running game, if not days... but certainly not years. Nobody is "years" away from a good running game. If they are, they need a new coach.
Winslow actually hurt the running game, particularly in this division. So the running game got better simply by virtue of his no longer being on the field. The best way to attack a 3-4 defense is with two tight ends. You have to expand the edges, and slow down the upfield movement of the linebackers and create space. You can't do that if your #1 tight end can't block... or blocks like a wide receiver.
Now, if you're in the NFC South, or the AFC South where your big division games are against 4-3 speed defenses, then a hybrid TE is a huge advantage. But the Browns have 8 3-4 teams on their schedule, including the Steelers and Ravens twice. You've got to develop the team to compete against that 3-4 look.
So you have doubts that this offensive line can create seams in the running game. Remember offensive lines get better by running the ball, not the other way around. The key is, they've got to string some drives together. They have to convert some 3rd downs. And don't take that as an argument for K2 still being here... moving the chains is not what makes Kellen Winslow a special tight end. And although they have 5 of last year's top 8 run defenses on their schedule, they won't face a defense like the Vikings every week.
You have to bear with the fact that this is a completely different offensive system. It's one which favors stouter, stronger TE's (in New England: Watson, Thomas, Graham before that). You'll see a lot more guys in the 6'2" - 6'3" range, around 260 lbs. vs. the more angular 6'5" 240 pounders. They're basically glorified tackles... and probably why you're seeing a lot more of Royal and Heiden rather than Rucker. The "safety valve" in the offense is primarily the up back. That job is presumably Jerome Harrison's to lose, if he can get healthy.
The offense is generally vertical only on the outside. It plays with crosses, arrows, and trap routes in the middle of the field. (Trap routes are those where you send one receiver over and one under a single zone defender). It doesn't take a great deal of speed to operate that kind of route combination. As a matter of fact it almost works against you. If you're too fast, you end up deliberately throttling down tipping the route. It tells the safety where you're trying to set up. If you have a roly-poly tight end busting his hump to get over a linebacker, the Safety can't really tell if he's trying to get to the corner, hitching up, or if he's just hitting the seam. He has to kind of wait him out before he can close on the route. Not to mention, while he's lugging his 4.95 forty up the field the vertical receivers on the outside are pressing the safeties into deeper and deeper positions. That's why you see Ben Watson roaming seemingly all by himself through secondaries. It's a function of the run game holding the linebackers nearer the line of scrimmage, and the vertical routes on the outside, stretching the distance between the linebackers and safeties. It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
You probably didn't ask for all that. But, I just wanted to kind of give you a feel for that offense. It's not as easy as saying "Winslow did X last year". It's a completely different offensive philosophy. And Winslow didn't fit. Winslow's a cover 2 killer and a monster against man coverage. Because linebackers can't run with him and corners and safeties aren't physical enough. And he's going to see that week in and week out in the NFC South. To me, that trade looks like a win-win.
-jj
I would argue that the Browns are weeks away from a good running game, if not days... but certainly not years. Nobody is "years" away from a good running game. If they are, they need a new coach.
Winslow actually hurt the running game, particularly in this division. So the running game got better simply by virtue of his no longer being on the field. The best way to attack a 3-4 defense is with two tight ends. You have to expand the edges, and slow down the upfield movement of the linebackers and create space. You can't do that if your #1 tight end can't block... or blocks like a wide receiver.
Now, if you're in the NFC South, or the AFC South where your big division games are against 4-3 speed defenses, then a hybrid TE is a huge advantage. But the Browns have 8 3-4 teams on their schedule, including the Steelers and Ravens twice. You've got to develop the team to compete against that 3-4 look.
So you have doubts that this offensive line can create seams in the running game. Remember offensive lines get better by running the ball, not the other way around. The key is, they've got to string some drives together. They have to convert some 3rd downs. And don't take that as an argument for K2 still being here... moving the chains is not what makes Kellen Winslow a special tight end. And although they have 5 of last year's top 8 run defenses on their schedule, they won't face a defense like the Vikings every week.
You have to bear with the fact that this is a completely different offensive system. It's one which favors stouter, stronger TE's (in New England: Watson, Thomas, Graham before that). You'll see a lot more guys in the 6'2" - 6'3" range, around 260 lbs. vs. the more angular 6'5" 240 pounders. They're basically glorified tackles... and probably why you're seeing a lot more of Royal and Heiden rather than Rucker. The "safety valve" in the offense is primarily the up back. That job is presumably Jerome Harrison's to lose, if he can get healthy.
The offense is generally vertical only on the outside. It plays with crosses, arrows, and trap routes in the middle of the field. (Trap routes are those where you send one receiver over and one under a single zone defender). It doesn't take a great deal of speed to operate that kind of route combination. As a matter of fact it almost works against you. If you're too fast, you end up deliberately throttling down tipping the route. It tells the safety where you're trying to set up. If you have a roly-poly tight end busting his hump to get over a linebacker, the Safety can't really tell if he's trying to get to the corner, hitching up, or if he's just hitting the seam. He has to kind of wait him out before he can close on the route. Not to mention, while he's lugging his 4.95 forty up the field the vertical receivers on the outside are pressing the safeties into deeper and deeper positions. That's why you see Ben Watson roaming seemingly all by himself through secondaries. It's a function of the run game holding the linebackers nearer the line of scrimmage, and the vertical routes on the outside, stretching the distance between the linebackers and safeties. It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
You probably didn't ask for all that. But, I just wanted to kind of give you a feel for that offense. It's not as easy as saying "Winslow did X last year". It's a completely different offensive philosophy. And Winslow didn't fit. Winslow's a cover 2 killer and a monster against man coverage. Because linebackers can't run with him and corners and safeties aren't physical enough. And he's going to see that week in and week out in the NFC South. To me, that trade looks like a win-win.
-jj
It's good to see someone who understands the intricacies of how a football team and its system operate.
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@inspecta said:
Diehard just stay your old crazy ass over in the political forum where you're not a nuisance to anybody but Heck.....What ever you say there rolly polly.
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I think not throwing the ball very well in week one hindered Quinn's development more than K2 not being here.
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Back to the subject at hand: 'Did The Winslow Injury Hurt Anderson's Development?, I think so.'
Yes, I think it did also.
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Zombo said:
In fact, he'd probably be starting against us this week.Zombo
Then we could rest our defensive secondary like the Bronco's are doing this week. Just add additional DE's/OLB's to cover all the underneith stuff.
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Zombo said:
In fact, he'd probably be starting against us this week.Zombo
Then we could rest our defensive secondary like the Bronco's are doing this week. Just add additional DE's/OLB's to cover all the underneith stuff.
Then we could rest our defensive secondary like the Bronco's are doing this week. Just add additional DE's/OLB's to cover all the underneith stuff.
And the Donkey's could take their front 7 off the field if we were starting Long One in the Wrong One and we could watch 4 bronco DB's shutdown our "high powered offense."
How fcuking exciting.
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Zombo said:
If Winslow had been healthy last year and Braylon had played like 07 Braylon, Quinn would have never got his hands on the job. In fact, he'd probably be starting against us this week.Zombo
If if's and but's were candies and nuts, every day would be christmas.
Funny how other NFL teams didn't see it that way when CLE was fielding offers for either QB during the offseason.
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Winslow is and will always be a moron. Now he is a moron who plays for TB. Quinn would of learned a few tricks on his bike and thats about it. Answer=NO!
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What has hampered every QB in this organization since we came back in 1999 is:
Lack of a running game
Inability of the defense to stop either the run or pass.
Period. End of story.
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What has hampered every QB in this organization since we came back in 1999 is:
Lack of a running game
Inability of the defense to stop either the run or pass.
Period. End of story.
What has hampered every QB in this organization since we came back in 1999 is:
Lack of a running game
Inability of the defense to stop either the run or pass.
Period. End of story.
Well actually thats the story for all losing teams.
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Thing is if we traded Winslow for a better running game why didn't we draft a RB or RT capable of doing something instead of two WR's. McCoy was there, Greene was there. Now maybe they think Davis is just as good, that is yet to be seen, those guys are gonna be pretty good IMO.
Also we're still a few years away from a good running game. The right side of the line isn't very good, Jamal is on his last leg, why not at least keep K2 this season and help build Quinns confidence. Nothing they did this season bolstered our running game so why trade K2 because he's a liability in it. On third downs K2 was our best option and Quinn doesn't have that safety valve now.
I would argue that the Browns are weeks away from a good running game, if not days... but certainly not years. Nobody is "years" away from a good running game. If they are, they need a new coach.
Winslow actually hurt the running game, particularly in this division. So the running game got better simply by virtue of his no longer being on the field. The best way to attack a 3-4 defense is with two tight ends. You have to expand the edges, and slow down the upfield movement of the linebackers and create space. You can't do that if your #1 tight end can't block... or blocks like a wide receiver.
Now, if you're in the NFC South, or the AFC South where your big division games are against 4-3 speed defenses, then a hybrid TE is a huge advantage. But the Browns have 8 3-4 teams on their schedule, including the Steelers and Ravens twice. You've got to develop the team to compete against that 3-4 look.
So you have doubts that this offensive line can create seams in the running game. Remember offensive lines get better by running the ball, not the other way around. The key is, they've got to string some drives together. They have to convert some 3rd downs. And don't take that as an argument for K2 still being here... moving the chains is not what makes Kellen Winslow a special tight end. And although they have 5 of last year's top 8 run defenses on their schedule, they won't face a defense like the Vikings every week.
You have to bear with the fact that this is a completely different offensive system. It's one which favors stouter, stronger TE's (in New England: Watson, Thomas, Graham before that). You'll see a lot more guys in the 6'2" - 6'3" range, around 260 lbs. vs. the more angular 6'5" 240 pounders. They're basically glorified tackles... and probably why you're seeing a lot more of Royal and Heiden rather than Rucker. The "safety valve" in the offense is primarily the up back. That job is presumably Jerome Harrison's to lose, if he can get healthy.
The offense is generally vertical only on the outside. It plays with crosses, arrows, and trap routes in the middle of the field. (Trap routes are those where you send one receiver over and one under a single zone defender). It doesn't take a great deal of speed to operate that kind of route combination. As a matter of fact it almost works against you. If you're too fast, you end up deliberately throttling down tipping the route. It tells the safety where you're trying to set up. If you have a roly-poly tight end busting his hump to get over a linebacker, the Safety can't really tell if he's trying to get to the corner, hitching up, or if he's just hitting the seam. He has to kind of wait him out before he can close on the route. Not to mention, while he's lugging his 4.95 forty up the field the vertical receivers on the outside are pressing the safeties into deeper and deeper positions. That's why you see Ben Watson roaming seemingly all by himself through secondaries. It's a function of the run game holding the linebackers nearer the line of scrimmage, and the vertical routes on the outside, stretching the distance between the linebackers and safeties. It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
You probably didn't ask for all that. But, I just wanted to kind of give you a feel for that offense. It's not as easy as saying "Winslow did X last year". It's a completely different offensive philosophy. And Winslow didn't fit. Winslow's a cover 2 killer and a monster against man coverage. Because linebackers can't run with him and corners and safeties aren't physical enough. And he's going to see that week in and week out in the NFC South. To me, that trade looks like a win-win.
-jj
It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
Great post.
So you're saying crossing patterns with TE's and WR's limit the effectiveness of zone blitz when those fatties drop back?
Also, what I think you're saying is the outside receivers push the vertical routes and open up the middle of the field because slower TE's lumber into the middle, which by that point the Safeties have neglected because of the speed on the outside? A faster TE attracts more attention for the deep S in that coverage?
I get that cover 3 leaves the flats (at least one flat) open, and can be beat with flooding the seams with multiple recievers. Either that or a circle route by the Back.
What I am not sure about is what beats the zone blitz, and it seems you're saying 1) criss-crossing patterns in the middle, and 2) the TE leaking out into the zone over the LB and under the deep S in the middle.
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
What has hampered every QB in this organization since we came back in 1999 is:
Lack of a running game
Inability of the defense to stop either the run or pass.
Period. End of story.
Well actually thats the story for all losing teams.
Well actually thats the story for all losing teams.
We have not been able to impose our will in either the running or passing game since we've been back. We haven't had an identity on either side of the ball because of all the changes.
It would be nice to have one of the 4 fooking phases - running the ball, stopping the run, passing the ball, stopping the pass - where we dominate, where teams know that shit isn't happening.
We just played a team strong in 3, and possibly 4, and people are surprised we didn't have a great showing.
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
Who changed the title of this thread?
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Well actually thats the story for all losing teams.
We have not been able to impose our will in either the running or passing game since we've been back. We haven't had an identity on either side of the ball because of all the changes.
It would be nice to have one of the 4 fooking phases - running the ball, stopping the run, passing the ball, stopping the pass - where we dominate, where teams know that shit isn't happening.
We just played a team strong in 3, and possibly 4, and people are surprised we didn't have a great showing.
We have not been able to impose our will in either the running or passing game since we've been back. We haven't had an identity on either side of the ball because of all the changes.
It would be nice to have one of the 4 fooking phases - running the ball, stopping the run, passing the ball, stopping the pass - where we dominate, where teams know that shit isn't happening.
We just played a team strong in 3, and possibly 4, and people are surprised we didn't have a great showing.
At times i was impressed. Consistancy should be a priority, we can all sit back and wish for it but the players need to make it happen.
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@inspecta said:
Stan did of course.He's also editing people's posts.
Figures.
there was a thread from this morning thats been deleted, i want the puppet masters strings on Lumberg for just a day. I promise i won't ruin his reputation.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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