Relax... Sheesh
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Yeah, but JJ...... DA is a playmaker!
Yeah, cheap shot at Z but the point is the same. I haven't seen anything in the first 2 games that would indicate putting in DA is the salve for all wounds.
I'm more than willing to cut Stan and other die hard, attend every game, season ticket holders a ton of slack on DA loyalty (Z, I'm not sure if you go to all the games). I did get that perspective from Stan in the other thread. Its a solid point. However, being cute and dismissing the supposed "BQ crowd" as out to lunch for wanting to give this guy some leash is just weak.
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no matter what any of you say this team sucks. i'm friggin embarassed watching them amongst other teams' fans at my local sports bar here in ny. how come other front offices can choose head coaches that know what they're doing? we continuously throw snake eyes. we can't draft anyone to save our lives. start cleaning house on this lot of bums. lewis is finished. play the rookies. manginious my ass. my jet fan friends laugh in my face. they couldn't wait to get rid of him. show some friggin emotion at least.
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Agreed... at least to the point that if the guy doesn't improve, the Browns need a quarterback. It's just a matter of how long that evaluation process lasts. I have a hunch, that the Mangini/Kokinis troupe may play this out for the full 16 games. The question is how much can Browns fans endure? History tells us quite a bit.
Of course, the kid may actually snap into shape. That's always a possibility. The question is, what are Mangini's expectations? And how does that differ from yours, mine, the fans, etc.? That's the stuff that's going to fill up this board.
-jj
Thoughts on Veikune,Robiske and MoMass? Thoughts on second rounders contributing right away?
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Agreed... at least to the point that if the guy doesn't improve, the Browns need a quarterback. It's just a matter of how long that evaluation process lasts. I have a hunch, that the Mangini/Kokinis troupe may play this out for the full 16 games. The question is how much can Browns fans endure? History tells us quite a bit.
Of course, the kid may actually snap into shape. That's always a possibility. The question is, what are Mangini's expectations? And how does that differ from yours, mine, the fans, etc.? That's the stuff that's going to fill up this board.
-jj
Thoughts on Veikune,Robiske and MoMass? Thoughts on second rounders contributing right away?
Thoughts on Veikune,Robiske and MoMass? Thoughts on second rounders contributing right away?
I think you're going to start seeing more and more of them. The Mangini method has been to bring rookies along... but bits at a time. This is counter to Romeo Crennel's policy of, you can play when you can beat out the starter. Mangini's whole philosophy is situational. So you teach a young player 1 situation, master it, then let him do it. Then, you go to work on the next situation. I think you'll see Maiava and Veikune start to contribute in situational defense sooner than later. Probably as soon as next week. You've already seen Massoquoi situationally. And I'd doubt if Robiskie is far behind. But he has had problems getting separation. He's going to get an opportunity to do something, but it may not manifest itself in many reps.
With young players, Mangini wants to minimize weaknesses. So find them a way to contribute, and just have them do that for a while. Until you can get them to do something else perfectly. Then let them do that, too. Eventually, they'll play someone else out of reps, because they do something better than the starter. It really depends on the player. Darrelle Revis started for Mangini from the start. Vernon Gholston never did. Dustin Keller started 6 games as a rookie. It's just a matter of what you can contribute.
I think you'll start to see Francies as well. Hank Poteat is having all kinds of problems in man coverage. He's really a zone guy. And, at 32, the blitz coverages are a bit much to ask of him. They've also added a couple of other young guys to the defensive backfield that will start to show up on third downs. They've just got to be integrated.
-jj
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Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.
1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.
2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.
Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was the reasons solely, then he'd have the same stuggles this year, because the situation is the same.
The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.
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Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.
1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.
2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.
Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was the reasons solely, then he'd have the same stuggles this year, because the situation is the same.
The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.
Masters said:
Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.
2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.
Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was those reasons solely, then he'd have the same this year, because the situation is the same this year.
The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.
I believe NFL DC's figured out how to play DA to his weaknesses ... but what QB hasn't been game planned like that? I still feel the problem was in our OC's coaching of DA, they never adjusted. Opposing defenses adjusted after his first 7-8 games of success and we bent over and took it.
Since we have returned to the league we have never dictated anything, always the team that has adjustments made to counter any success we've had in the first half and we always come away acting as if that wasn't fair ... THAT IF FOOTBALL!
You run something successful until they stop it, then you attack where they are rolling the man over from to counter whjat you are doing. You stay a step ahead of them.
I just thought we had something to work with in DA. We may have tried to make adjustments and he just couldn't play to his weaknesses, but if you are going to tell me it is in the touch of his short game, I'm going to laugh ... NFL professional experienced Head Coaches can't work with a 24yr old on throwing a screen? Seriously? Have you EVER heard of that ever happening in the NFL before?
I'd like to see what Anderson can do with this new coaching staff, or what they can do with him.
I just don't like Quinns game. For those that know me for the past decade know that I was vicious in my attack of Tim Couch well before he came out for the draft his Junior year ... I did not want that shit here, and still don't. West Coast offense is one thing, Dink-n-dunk is another.
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Masters said:
Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.
2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.
Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was those reasons solely, then he'd have the same this year, because the situation is the same this year.
The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.
I believe NFL DC's figured out how to play DA to his weaknesses ... but what QB hasn't been game planned like that? I still feel the problem was in our OC's coaching of DA, they never adjusted. Opposing defenses adjusted after his first 7-8 games of success and we bent over and took it.
Since we have returned to the league we have never dictated anything, always the team that has adjustments made to counter any success we've had in the first half and we always come away acting as if that wasn't fair ... THAT IF FOOTBALL!
You run something successful until they stop it, then you attack where they are rolling the man over from to counter whjat you are doing. You stay a step ahead of them.
I just thought we had something to work with in DA. We may have tried to make adjustments and he just couldn't play to his weaknesses, but if you are going to tell me it is in the touch of his short game, I'm going to laugh ... NFL professional experienced Head Coaches can't work with a 24yr old on throwing a screen? Seriously? Have you EVER heard of that ever happening in the NFL before?
I'd like to see what Anderson can do with this new coaching staff, or what they can do with him.
I just don't like Quinns game. For those that know me for the past decade know that I was vicious in my attack of Tim Couch well before he came out for the draft his Junior year ... I did not want that shit here, and still don't. West Coast offense is one thing, Dink-n-dunk is another.
I believe NFL DC's figured out how to play DA to his weaknesses ... but what QB hasn't been game planned like that? I still feel the problem was in our OC's coaching of DA, they never adjusted. Opposing defenses adjusted after his first 7-8 games of success and we bent over and took it.
Since we have returned to the league we have never dictated anything, always the team that has adjustments made to counter any success we've had in the first half and we always come away acting as if that wasn't fair ... THAT IF FOOTBALL!
You run something successful until they stop it, then you attack where they are rolling the man over from to counter whjat you are doing. You stay a step ahead of them.
I just thought we had something to work with in DA. We may have tried to make adjustments and he just couldn't play to his weaknesses, but if you are going to tell me it is in the touch of his short game, I'm going to laugh ... NFL professional experienced Head Coaches can't work with a 24yr old on throwing a screen? Seriously? Have you EVER heard of that ever happening in the NFL before?
I'd like to see what Anderson can do with this new coaching staff, or what they can do with him.
I just don't like Quinns game. For those that know me for the past decade know that I was vicious in my attack of Tim Couch well before he came out for the draft his Junior year ... I did not want that shit here, and still don't. West Coast offense is one thing, Dink-n-dunk is another.
I agree, NFL DC's adjusted to DA's strengths and weaknesses. But I find it hard to believe no adjustment was made from late in 2007 and all threw last season. CLE had pass patterns being run to beat that coverage. That's where DA's scatter shot on the short and intermediate patterns reared it's ugly head and continued to. While I don't put much stock in the previous staff, they also weren't complete nuckle draggers.
While I never believed DA was going to work long term, I wanted him to as much as any other Browns fan. On the passing, Jason has ran this down before. Teaching a guy to get accurate on long passes is far easier than getting a guy more accurate on short/intermediate passes. It requires a lot more precision and isn't as teachable as one would like to believe.
While seeing DA w/ a new staff might have been good for a reality check for seeing who the real DA is, it seems this staff didn't feel that in DA they had some one they felt worth taking that look at.
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If Quinn's games 15 and 16 look like game 2... then you can bet quarterback will be at the top of the offseason list. That was just not an NFL-type effort.
No way it gets to that point. BQ has until game 7-8.
If BQ is playing poorly, as he nears his incentive mark of 70% of snaps, the Browns would be crazy to allow that to kick in and jack his salary to 11 mil...unless they just plan to cut him loose. We aren't going to pay a guy 11 mil if he isn't the deal and nobody is going to trade for a 11 mil contract unless he is worth it, so cutting is the only real option.
Quinn better pick it up or he is on the bench my mid season for the rest of the season.
I say mid season to allow some cushion in the event DA got hurt and missed a game or two.
No way the Browns allow this type of play to linger 15 games in to the season and have to pay the guy double because they did.
If Quinn has a poor performance next week, I expect we will hear the boo's when he returns home against Cincy if he is still wallowing away..
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no matter what any of you say this team sucks. i'm friggin embarassed watching them amongst other teams' fans at my local sports bar here in ny. how come other front offices can choose head coaches that know what they're doing? we continuously throw snake eyes. we can't draft anyone to save our lives. start cleaning house on this lot of bums. lewis is finished. play the rookies. manginious my ass. my jet fan friends laugh in my face. they couldn't wait to get rid of him. show some friggin emotion at least.
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If Quinn's games 15 and 16 look like game 2... then you can bet quarterback will be at the top of the offseason list. That was just not an NFL-type effort.
No way it gets to that point. BQ has until game 7-8.
If BQ is playing poorly, as he nears his incentive mark of 70% of snaps, the Browns would be crazy to allow that to kick in and jack his salary to 11 mil...unless they just plan to cut him loose. We aren't going to pay a guy 11 mil if he isn't the deal and nobody is going to trade for a 11 mil contract unless he is worth it, so cutting is the only real option.
Quinn better pick it up or he is on the bench my mid season for the rest of the season.
I say mid season to allow some cushion in the event DA got hurt and missed a game or two.
No way the Browns allow this type of play to linger 15 games in to the season and have to pay the guy double because they did.
If Quinn has a poor performance next week, I expect we will hear the boo's when he returns home against Cincy if he is still wallowing away..
No way it gets to that point. BQ has until game 7-8.
If BQ is playing poorly, as he nears his incentive mark of 70% of snaps, the Browns would be crazy to allow that to kick in and jack his salary to 11 mil...unless they just plan to cut him loose. We aren't going to pay a guy 11 mil if he isn't the deal and nobody is going to trade for a 11 mil contract unless he is worth it, so cutting is the only real option.
Quinn better pick it up or he is on the bench my mid season for the rest of the season.
I say mid season to allow some cushion in the event DA got hurt and missed a game or two.
No way the Browns allow this type of play to linger 15 games in to the season and have to pay the guy double because they did.
If Quinn has a poor performance next week, I expect we will hear the boo's when he returns home against Cincy if he is still wallowing away..
Yeah, that's a bit of a semantic argument. Quinn would never get to perform like he did yesterday for sixteen weeks. Mostly because he'd never survive. But, that said, what I was saying was, if he hasn't shown adequate improvement by then (whatever that may be), then Quinn is long gone from this franchise.
-jj
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I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light
you can say that again.
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I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
We should see timing improve, and more continuity in the offensive game plan, will pay dividends to the defense staying off the field and not tire out in the 4th.... I agree with JJ and Riff - this will get better!
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Kudos Riffer. Nothing like seeing that middle school baby get his ass handed to him.
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Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.
1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.
2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.
Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was the reasons solely, then he'd have the same stuggles this year, because the situation is the same.
The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.
Masters said:
Folks, if the sole issue was just the QB, I am pretty sure Quinn would have been yanked already. In no way am I trying to make excuses for Quinn's bad and really bad play these first two games. But let's run down a few realities here on the QB and O right now.1. I hear DA would have thrown TD passes. Keep in mind folks, DA hasn't thrown a TD pass since week 9 last year against BALT. He had zero in relief against HOU last season, zero in his start against IND, and zero this preseason.
2. We have heard that the reason DA dropped off in 2008 was no JJ, Winslow missing some games, no 3rd WR, and no running game. What is actually different this season? CLE still has no legit #2 WR, might not have a legit #3 WR, and no running game. So why would it be any different of a performance this season.
Quinn is struggling, no question. He may not turn into a legit NFL starter. But calling for DA and expecting different results make no sense to me. If the excuse for DA's poor play last season was the reasons solely, then he'd have the same stuggles this year, because the situation is the same.
The offensive woes of CLE go deeper than just the QB.
DA stunk in weeks 1-3 last year too. At this time last year we only had 16 points. Then in week 3 we only added 10 more points. Against Baltimore DA threw their D more TD passes than our receivers right? So if he looked THAT terrible in starts #19-21, we saw first hand why 31 other GMs said "no thanks" to his brief availability this offseason.
Here's my concerns in this order:
1) Why the HELL don't we already know if Quinn is the answer or not in season #3? It's been a colossal screwup from the getgo. We should be upgrading an already good chemistry established like Atlanta just did. I ask this because Matt Sanchez, who was on our doorstep, looks to be the REAL deal. Now if we suck again - there might not be anyone of his caliber on our doorstep and QBs just haven't grown on trees for us in the last 20 years. I'm not as patient as the fans saying "what are you worrying about? We're rebuilding!" Gee ya think? How long do you want to be patient with rebuilding? 20 more years of "it's okay" doesn't excite me. The last consistently good football we were treated to was in the mid-late 80s. We're closing in on 2010 so that's a long time ago folks. Our QB position HAS to improve so we better hope Quinn is the answer - unless Ratliff is the next Brian Sipe nobody saw coming.
2) Speedy X-factor at RB that can change the way a defense aligns itself or sets up game plans. Anyone remember how Marshall Faulk's 4.2 forty speed punished the blitz? It's an ENORMOUS reason teams stopped wanting to blitz Warner in St Louis. Our division WANTS us and dares us to line up a big back that takes forever to get to the line of scrimmage. I don't HATE Jamal - I just don't see us being very good if he's our RB dominating all the carries. He's clearly not who he was. Adrian Peterson is who Jamal USED TO BE. That's a weapon of mass destruction on Sundays.
3) TE - Sorry folks, but Troy Aikman's favorite receiver was Jay Novacek, which in turn made life wonderful for Michael Irvin, Alvin Harper and whoever. In spite of what's been said, it's an important prong of attack in the passing game. Unfortunately, if you polled the 32 NFL GMs and asked them to rank the top pass catching TEs in order - I doubt we'd see Robert Royal's name in the top 25.
4) Experience working together: Furrey is new, MoMass is new, Robiskie is new, Royal is new, Mack is new, St Clair is new, Womack is new, Fraley's position is new, the OC is new, the Head Coach is new, etc. This has to impact chemistry considerably.
5) This team could use better on-the-field leadership from it's experienced vets IMO. When this really stands out is when momentum is shifting or some degree of adversity is unfolding. You usually see STRONG leadership on successful teams and people just putting their time in on teams going in the wrong direction.
- Tom F.
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They are not near as bad as they look, and I believe that. They are not as good as I was hoping, but nonetheless, there were plays left on the field yesterday. I'll give three examples besides the inevitable of Jamal getting 2 yards out of 25 from time to time.
1) Quinn throws a worm burner on the Furrey out to start the game that should have been six. What happened I don't know, but it sucked and was a flat out bad throw. Should have been 7-0.
2) Quinn slightly overthrows Furrey on a crossing route that would have went for six had Furrey come down with the ball. BTW, he can feel free to start looking like the guy we thought we had in preseason. Bad pass by Quinn but catchable, and I replayed about 4 times. He would have scored with just one half ass block.
3) Quinn not putting any loft on the ball to MoMass on the deep seam route. He was gone but Quinn threw into the back of the linebacker, which tells me he didn't read the safety coverage.
4) I'll add a fourth. Edwards was a whisker away from breaking a tackle early on and taking it to the house. Real close, but he couldn't keep his feet.
5) I'll add another: Cribbs dropping the ball right before the bad Mack snap. I can't help but think that field position ultimately led to the bad snap after the drop. Quinn can feel free to start recovering some of these fumbles BTW.
6) One more: Elvis Dumervil was the main difference in this game. Most of us knew coming in that St. Clair would be vulnerable to speed rushers, and Denver maxed that out to a tee. Our fault for not stopping it, but I'm not ready to cut St. Clair after one mismatch game like some of the asinine comments I saw based on emotion yesterday.
I'm very disappointed. Like most, I prefer to be optimistic to a fault every year. I still think they can turn this around, I don't think it's as dire as even JJ is portraying it. The NFL is about making plays and capitalizing on situations and I think they can get better. Denver was 9-0 in home openers coming in with an emotional Shannon Sharpe induction etc. It's hard to play out there, always has been. I for one wasn't expecting a victory but really hoping for it, since we have Crackmore coming up ready to feast on Quinn. BTW, JJ's Sylvester the Cat comparison is hilarious and right on point, the kid has definitely been knocked down a few. Perhaps he can relate more to what DA has been through now, and also how this shit ain't that easy against the big boys.
I'll be right back there next week getting pumped and ready to rattle off 6 in a row while hoping Pittspile gets they're asses beat, ain't nothing going to change.
PS One change I think that is due is moving Cribbs back to the coverage units and ending this WR experiment, at least for now. He isn't feeling it out there and if they are just going to have him settle into zones they may as well play the kids. Josh has no regard for where he is supposed to be or savvy, which has been pretty disappointing based on what he showed in camp. I for one was way off in my optimism for him getting it done out there.
They are not near as bad as they look, and I believe that. They are not as good as I was hoping, but nonetheless, there were plays left on the field yesterday. I'll give three examples besides the inevitable of Jamal getting 2 yards out of 25 from time to time.
I'm very disappointed. Like most, I prefer to be optimistic to a fault every year. I still think they can turn this around, I don't think it's as dire as even JJ is portraying it. The NFL is about making plays and capitalizing on situations and I think they can get better. Denver was 9-0 in home openers coming in with an emotional Shannon Sharpe induction etc. It's hard to play out there, always has been.
Thanks for the pick-me-up Riff! I needed to read this because it seems alot more level-headed than I am capable of being at this time. You made some excellent points though that reminded me sometimes it's a game of inches won by the team that does all the little things better. For example, getting the snap up by 1 foot, being 1 step quicker so Braylon doesn't get tripped up, or getting the throw just 3 feet over and we're looking at different outcomes.
I always seem to get my game face back by the weekend regardless of how hard I take a loss.
- Tom F.
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@inspecta said:
I told my kids for every game the Browns lose they will lose one toy, ,for every time Quinn takes a sack they will get one lick with the belt. Every 3 and out is another lick with the belt.Somebody has to pay. That's why I had kids.
LMAO!
That's priceless.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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