Relax... Sheesh
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They are not near as bad as they look, and I believe that. They are not as good as I was hoping, but nonetheless, there were plays left on the field yesterday. I'll give three examples besides the inevitable of Jamal getting 2 yards out of 25 from time to time.
1) Quinn throws a worm burner on the Furrey out to start the game that should have been six. What happened I don't know, but it sucked and was a flat out bad throw. Should have been 7-0.
2) Quinn slightly overthrows Furrey on a crossing route that would have went for six had Furrey come down with the ball. BTW, he can feel free to start looking like the guy we thought we had in preseason. Bad pass by Quinn but catchable, and I replayed about 4 times. He would have scored with just one half ass block.
3) Quinn not putting any loft on the ball to MoMass on the deep seam route. He was gone but Quinn threw into the back of the linebacker, which tells me he didn't read the safety coverage.
4) I'll add a fourth. Edwards was a whisker away from breaking a tackle early on and taking it to the house. Real close, but he couldn't keep his feet.
5) I'll add another: Cribbs dropping the ball right before the bad Mack snap. I can't help but think that field position ultimately led to the bad snap after the drop. Quinn can feel free to start recovering some of these fumbles BTW.
6) One more: Elvis Dumervil was the main difference in this game. Most of us knew coming in that St. Clair would be vulnerable to speed rushers, and Denver maxed that out to a tee. Our fault for not stopping it, but I'm not ready to cut St. Clair after one mismatch game like some of the asinine comments I saw based on emotion yesterday.
I'm very disappointed. Like most, I prefer to be optimistic to a fault every year. I still think they can turn this around, I don't think it's as dire as even JJ is portraying it. The NFL is about making plays and capitalizing on situations and I think they can get better. Denver was 9-0 in home openers coming in with an emotional Shannon Sharpe induction etc. It's hard to play out there, always has been. I for one wasn't expecting a victory but really hoping for it, since we have Crackmore coming up ready to feast on Quinn. BTW, JJ's Sylvester the Cat comparison is hilarious and right on point, the kid has definitely been knocked down a few. Perhaps he can relate more to what DA has been through now, and also how this shit ain't that easy against the big boys.
I'll be right back there next week getting pumped and ready to rattle off 6 in a row while hoping Pittspile gets they're asses beat, ain't nothing going to change.
PS One change I think that is due is moving Cribbs back to the coverage units and ending this WR experiment, at least for now. He isn't feeling it out there and if they are just going to have him settle into zones they may as well play the kids. Josh has no regard for where he is supposed to be or savvy, which has been pretty disappointing based on what he showed in camp. I for one was way off in my optimism for him getting it done out there.
They are not near as bad as they look, and I believe that. They are not as good as I was hoping, but nonetheless, there were plays left on the field yesterday. I'll give three examples besides the inevitable of Jamal getting 2 yards out of 25 from time to time.
I'm very disappointed. Like most, I prefer to be optimistic to a fault every year. I still think they can turn this around, I don't think it's as dire as even JJ is portraying it. The NFL is about making plays and capitalizing on situations and I think they can get better. Denver was 9-0 in home openers coming in with an emotional Shannon Sharpe induction etc. It's hard to play out there, always has been.
Thanks for the pick-me-up Riff! I needed to read this because it seems alot more level-headed than I am capable of being at this time. You made some excellent points though that reminded me sometimes it's a game of inches won by the team that does all the little things better. For example, getting the snap up by 1 foot, being 1 step quicker so Braylon doesn't get tripped up, or getting the throw just 3 feet over and we're looking at different outcomes.
I always seem to get my game face back by the weekend regardless of how hard I take a loss.
- Tom F.
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@inspecta said:
I told my kids for every game the Browns lose they will lose one toy, ,for every time Quinn takes a sack they will get one lick with the belt. Every 3 and out is another lick with the belt.Somebody has to pay. That's why I had kids.
LMAO!
That's priceless.
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@inspecta said:
I told my kids for every game the Browns lose they will lose one toy, ,for every time Quinn takes a sack they will get one lick with the belt. Every 3 and out is another lick with the belt.Somebody has to pay. That's why I had kids.
Sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than punishing our livers like the rest of us do.
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I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
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I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state.
Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
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I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't.
-jj
I think that is a lack of chemistry/reps problem. That comes in game situations too - not just practice. This last game went a long way in building the chem between Quinn & BE, imo.
As the chemistry builds, the playbook opens up. As the playbook opens up, we start seeing some TD's I believe.
Because Quinn was absolutely that "swaggering, shot taking QB" when he had #83 doing this twice a game:
As you were saying, winning helps cement the bricks together that are being put in place right now.
-
I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years...
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
It think it's ironic we have a wild man D coordinator who loves blitzing and is open to the UFO scheme (I think I saw it on Sunday), and then on offense, we look tight as a drum with rigid play calling.
Agree again JJ, the best will come out when there is a relaxed mental state and comfort with the system.
-
The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years...
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
It think it's ironic we have a wild man D coordinator who loves blitzing and is open to the UFO scheme (I think I saw it on Sunday), and then on offense, we look tight as a drum with rigid play calling.
Agree again JJ, the best will come out when there is a relaxed mental state and comfort with the system.
It think it's ironic we have a wild man D coordinator who loves blitzing and is open to the UFO scheme (I think I saw it on Sunday), and then on offense, we look tight as a drum with rigid play calling.
Rigid playcalling, or rigid execution? I think a bit of both.
Hel, I don't care what the score is this season because I have tempered my expectations a lot (as I have been recommending to all.) But damn, can't we at least put a 2nd half together?
-
I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. -jj
I hear he has been criticized before for not making adjustments. I also know Rob Ryan's D can be run on. Both are manifesting themselves in two games. And both seem to be all about that 2nd half. I'm not sure if by week 8 this is still happening what will become of the "prefection" he demands. Game is all about adjustments, and since they're still learning the system I am sure that makes it difficult for them to make adjustments.
But Mangini has a history of criticism in adjusting, and Ryan's D has a history of being run against.
-
I'm with Peens on the not paying that money thing. If he literally continues on this route, you just don't pay it, whether it's my money or not.
I think he can and will get better. As I stated in my previous post there were quite a few near misses out there yesterday. Some of that can be ironed out with a little experience and non ass puckering time. Yeah, he sat on the bench for two years but like Ocon says, there is no way you can compare sitting with actual play, so basically he is going through rookie growing pains without the luxury of a decent squad with continuity.
We saw the light go on in camp after about a week. It wasn't a huge light but the game slowed down a little bit. I'm expecting some similar results with continued time. I was listening to Berns on WKNR tonight and he thinks Quinn is being too cautious, which I pretty much agree. It's all about not turning the ball over, but to be honest I'd rather have him take some shots and let it rip at times. He's going to end up getting beat up trying to squeeze every progression out waiting for a wide open guy, and worse, the dump offs will continue to have us yelling obscenities.
Regardless of all the pissed off views, he's let some balls rip on some seam routes that looked pretty good. Now they just need to get him dialed in a little bit more so he can complete those aforementioned near misses. They also need---no have to---start using Edwards more in the red zone. It's almost criminal how they are not giving him opportunities to make plays and outjump people. That's what the dude is all about, yet he appears to be more of a decoy. The fact that they continually try to run the ball on first and second down in the red zone is stupid as well, because it really puts any QB behind the 8 ball on third down.
They don't have to do gimmick plays, but why the hell can't they be more progressive and less predictable with the play calling? Someone explain that one to me. They faked the end around to Cribbs about 3 times before finally giving it to him, and the Broncos were sitting on it. I just don't understand what they are doing with Cribbs, and just for that alone I give Dabol or whoever is responsible a big fat F. Like I said before, if he is just going to be settling into zones short of the 1st down marker, than get MoMass and Robo involved. I thought the whole point of Cribbs starting was to get him the ball in space for YAC, but nothing is even close to that. He can't catch the ball in traffic yet, he's just not there. Put him back on the coverage units and let him do what he does. He can still get plenty of reps, but he should not be starting.
I need to watch the game again, but why was Royal not used more to help St. Clair? You just can't let that happen, it was reminiscent of OSU against Florida. If your tackles can't handle speed rushers, you have to give them some help. We don't need to worry about JT, so why can't they give St. Clair some help? I also would like to see them run more to the left, and for all those who loved the "road graders" on the line theory with Poke Chop and St. Clair, now you see what happens when they can't block pass rushers straight up.
Apparently Mangold went through similar growing pains as Mack is, but how long do we stay with him? Fraley ws playing for Womack yesterday, and I think it was just because of piss poor performance unless he was banged up. I doubt highly that Hadnot is that much of a savior, but there is a reason guys like Womack and St. Clair were available for reasonable contracts. They are backups, plain and simple. I gotta believe the plan coming in was to start Tucker at RT and Hadnot at RG like I thought all along, but these guys right now are major liabilities. There are also the inevitable communication problems with these guys, which wow, who would have thought that?
I think they will get better, I really do, but this is really hard to take. I think we all can agree on that.
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
Jason, While what you said sounds good I totally disagree with what you are saying, its all about talent and the desire to be/get better
your comment about the difference in the level of talent I disagree with the players on this Browns team lack the talent of the top tier teams in the league.
Example Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player, he has more than one move to rush the passer and he is more of a complete player, I don't doubt that Wimbley works hard and has the heart he just does not have the talent.
Example 2, Brian Robiske IMO was overrated at Ohio State and not the fastest player in college now in the NFL he can't get separation and get open, once again thats about talent, he does not have the talent of the top wideouts in the NFL such as a Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne ect, if the guy could not run past college corners how is he supposed to run by more talented NFL corners? Massaquoi was the receiver people here thought was a project and would take a year or more to develop yet he is much more athletic and advanced than Robiske. IMO this is another example of Browns fans overrating players from Ohio State, I always thought watching OSU Brian Hartline would be a better pro receiver and he is showing this with the Dolphins.
There is a huge difference from the 53rd player on a roster and the top 10 guys on a roster, its all about the teams with the most talent in the league will win more games you can only scheme so much and talent will win most of the battles.
The idea of bringing in all the ex Jets was because they knew the system, though they know the system they are not the most talented guys which is why we are seeing the results we see, again it boils down to talent, you can have guys in the right position but the most talented guys are going to win the one on one battles.
I don't think the guys you are seeing today are Mangini's guys and he is taking this season to see who his guys are and replace them over the next couple of seasons with his type of players.
I think you are correct in some what you are saying about trust and why this offense is so conservative, I think Mangini believes lets just keep this simple and see if we can hang around and maybe steal a few games in the 4th quarter because he knows he does not have the talent to open things up and do alot of things many of us fans would like to see.
-
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
And if we don't win?
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
And if we don't win?
Well, Mangini's contract is a lot more stable than most of the players. He's probably going to do this iron-fist thing for a good 12 months or so. The guys who can't take it will have to find work elsewhere.
-jj
-
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
And if we don't win?
Well, Mangini's contract is a lot more stable than most of the players. He's probably going to do this iron-fist thing for a good 12 months or so. The guys who can't take it will have to find work elsewhere.
-jj
Well, Mangini's contract is a lot more stable than most of the players. He's probably going to do this iron-fist thing for a good 12 months or so. The guys who can't take it will have to find work elsewhere.
-jj
If he don't win some games and have some success ... there is only one thing to do with that iron-fist.
There are too many cases around the league where new coaches (even fisrt time coaches) have taken over, inserted new QB's (even rookie QB's), had similar (if not more) turnover, with less facilities and have had great success. In fact, take all of the above and look at this weeks opponent and what John Harbaugh has done with a 5-11 team, rookie QB, and aging defense & o-line. He didn't command a golf-clap for a nice effort, he took them to the AFC Championship game and has continued to roll.
I'm tired of this baby step shit (with an iron fist? ... Ohhhhh, scary) ... win TODAY or get out of the freaking way.
-
Quinn's not yet the swaggering, shot taking quarterback everyone wants. I'm not sure he is that. But I'm also not convinced he isn't. You have to put a little of that pressure for perfection on Mangini. That's kind of his style. And it's mentally taxing on players. In fact, that's a card he's overplayed in the past. Kris Jenkins commented on Mangini's desire for perfection, and how it helped him become a better player, but it just wore some other guys out. Some players feel stifled when they can't use their creativity, when they can't freelance. And Mangini tolerates very little of that. In Mangini's scheme, if you do your own thing, you break down the entire team, offense or defense.
His style isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to learn... unless you're winning. It's amazing how winning changes players attitudes.
Add to that the fact that Quinn looks like he's playing to keep his job rather than win games, and you've got problems. At some point, Quinn has to earn a little trust. He hasn't done that yet. I don't think the cuffs come off until Quinn can consistently make his playcall adjustments, and attack the first down marker successfully.
After two efforts like this, the natural tendency is to want to change personnel. I can't tell you how terrible of an approach that is. That's the philosophy the Browns have used for a decade. Go get another guy. Put another guy in there. Sign another free agent. It's compromises morale, continuity, the playbook, you name it.
You can't go on pretending that getting better isn't hard work. It is. You don't just go hire better guys and suddenly have a better team. It doesn't work like that. If that worked, the Washington Redskins would be in the Super Bowl every year.
I've said this before, but the difference in talent from the top player in the league to the 53rd guy on the worst team's roster is so minute, that if you polled 100 people off the street, and watched them go through a combine style workout, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 of them that could tell you who's who. So what's the difference? The difference is in their heads. Are they functioning at the highest point of clarity within the system they're playing? That's the difference. Are they in that "Mind Like Water" state. The state where their natural reaction is the right "system" reaction. Where their instincts align with the scheme. That's the difference.
Some guys get there very quickly. They find the right system. Or, some guys just have the mental capacity to adapt. For, example, if you put Ed Reed in any system, he's going to be a dominant player. He's just wired that way. But you can't tell me that he's markedly more physically gifted than Brandon Flowers or Kenny Phillips.
So what's happening with the Browns? Some of these guys are going to adapt. Some never will. Right now there's still a lot of guessing and thinking going on out there. Too much fear of failure, not enough imposing one's will. Over the next several weeks, you will see some of these guys snap into place like marbles on a Chinese Checker board. Others will simply roll around aimlessly... and some will roll off the table altogether... while I'm abusing metaphor.
Add to that that you have a lot of guys on the field brought in because they have already been taught this system, not because they're any particular level of contributor. Ya know, they weren't brought in because they were great players, but rather because it won't take them as long to teach them the material. It's a bit like a school busing in a group of Puerto Rican kids to boost their foreign language test scores... it's not because their necessarily good students, they just happen to speak Spanish.
Look at the bright side... (easy for me to say). Watch the guys click into shape. There have been some signs already... albeit, only a few. Kam Wimbley seems to have found his niche on the strong side. Braylon Edwards is finding his place a little bit... even if the offense has yet to adapt to his vertical skills - those square ins and skinny posts seem to be opening up some for him. The defensive scheme is applying more pressure to opposing quarterbacks than this city has seen in years. They obviously need to tighten the lug nuts to get through 4 quarters. But all and all the defense looks quite a bit different from what we're used to seeing in Cleveland.
There are some good things happening. You just have to find them.
-jj
Jason, While what you said sounds good I totally disagree with what you are saying, its all about talent and the desire to be/get better
your comment about the difference in the level of talent I disagree with the players on this Browns team lack the talent of the top tier teams in the league.
Example Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player, he has more than one move to rush the passer and he is more of a complete player, I don't doubt that Wimbley works hard and has the heart he just does not have the talent.
Example 2, Brian Robiske IMO was overrated at Ohio State and not the fastest player in college now in the NFL he can't get separation and get open, once again thats about talent, he does not have the talent of the top wideouts in the NFL such as a Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne ect, if the guy could not run past college corners how is he supposed to run by more talented NFL corners? Massaquoi was the receiver people here thought was a project and would take a year or more to develop yet he is much more athletic and advanced than Robiske. IMO this is another example of Browns fans overrating players from Ohio State, I always thought watching OSU Brian Hartline would be a better pro receiver and he is showing this with the Dolphins.
There is a huge difference from the 53rd player on a roster and the top 10 guys on a roster, its all about the teams with the most talent in the league will win more games you can only scheme so much and talent will win most of the battles.
The idea of bringing in all the ex Jets was because they knew the system, though they know the system they are not the most talented guys which is why we are seeing the results we see, again it boils down to talent, you can have guys in the right position but the most talented guys are going to win the one on one battles.
I don't think the guys you are seeing today are Mangini's guys and he is taking this season to see who his guys are and replace them over the next couple of seasons with his type of players.
I think you are correct in some what you are saying about trust and why this offense is so conservative, I think Mangini believes lets just keep this simple and see if we can hang around and maybe steal a few games in the 4th quarter because he knows he does not have the talent to open things up and do alot of things many of us fans would like to see.
Jason, While what you said sounds good I totally disagree with what you are saying, its all about talent and the desire to be/get better
your comment about the difference in the level of talent I disagree with the players on this Browns team lack the talent of the top tier teams in the league.
Example Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player, he has more than one move to rush the passer and he is more of a complete player, I don't doubt that Wimbley works hard and has the heart he just does not have the talent.
Example 2, Brian Robiske IMO was overrated at Ohio State and not the fastest player in college now in the NFL he can't get separation and get open, once again thats about talent, he does not have the talent of the top wideouts in the NFL such as a Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne ect, if the guy could not run past college corners how is he supposed to run by more talented NFL corners? Massaquoi was the receiver people here thought was a project and would take a year or more to develop yet he is much more athletic and advanced than Robiske. IMO this is another example of Browns fans overrating players from Ohio State, I always thought watching OSU Brian Hartline would be a better pro receiver and he is showing this with the Dolphins.
There is a huge difference from the 53rd player on a roster and the top 10 guys on a roster, its all about the teams with the most talent in the league will win more games you can only scheme so much and talent will win most of the battles.
The idea of bringing in all the ex Jets was because they knew the system, though they know the system they are not the most talented guys which is why we are seeing the results we see, again it boils down to talent, you can have guys in the right position but the most talented guys are going to win the one on one battles.
I don't think the guys you are seeing today are Mangini's guys and he is taking this season to see who his guys are and replace them over the next couple of seasons with his type of players.
I think you are correct in some what you are saying about trust and why this offense is so conservative, I think Mangini believes lets just keep this simple and see if we can hang around and maybe steal a few games in the 4th quarter because he knows he does not have the talent to open things up and do alot of things many of us fans would like to see.
I don't mean to nitpick semantics here, but I think we're talking about two different things. You made one statement at the beginning. I agree with half of it, and I disagree with other. You said "Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player." DeMarcus Ware IS a better player than Kamerion Wimbley... but it's not because he's more talented. DeMarcus Ware is better skilled. There is a substantial difference.
DeMarcus Ware has developed the tools necessary to utilize his talent. You put him and Wimbley in a room full of cones and weight benches, you can't find 10 people out of 100 (not in the football industry) that can tell you which one's an All-Pro, and which one's on the verge of being a complete bust. The "talent" is almost equal. It's the skills that change the game. Ware has been disciplined (or disciplined himself) to react "correctly" or "effectively" to what happens in front of him. Wimbley has not.
Outside of tenacity and a general disregard for you personal well-being, I can't come up with a single non-adjustable difference between Wimbley's game and Ware's. What DeMarcus does on the field is learned behavior. It might look like instinct. It's not. It's technique.
Really this is an extension of the classic Nature vs. Nurture debate... a debate in which I almost always side with Nature. However, once you get to the NFL, the nature argument is over. Everyone is an elite athlete. Everyone is at the top of their field. The only thing that separates them is a few hundreths of a second on a stopwatch, and what's between their ears.
Same thing with Robiskie. Brian has as much talent as any receiver in the league. He just doesn't quite have the skills yet. Speed is a talent, separation is a skill. No one can run away from an NFL cornerback if that cornerback knows where you're going. No one. If you run a 4.4 and the CB runs a 4.5, you're still neck and neck for 70 yards. It's not about the speed. Everybody's fast.
Rarely do first year wide receivers make a significant impact. It's a lot to learn. Massaquoi has had some opportunities, simply because the Browns are very, very thin at wide receiver. And, he's got a little more gather and burst than Robiskie has at this point, and has demonstrated a bit better technique when it comes to route running.
A lot of this over-rated vs. under-rated stuff comes from the combine workouts... or similar measurables. Brian Hartline looks like a better pro prospect because he's more disciplined. He's also probably on the bottom end of the NFL when it comes to physical gifts (obviously, not so much that a layperson would notice). But, he started working on pristine technique at a very early age. He had some good coaches. And he's constantly worked on gaining edges. He's going to be fine.
Here's a good example to illustrate the point. Ray Lewis is one of the greatest linebackers ever to play this game... most people won't argue with me on that. But he's not noticeably more talented than, say, Omar Gaither. Ray Lewis is better because he wants to be better. He's better because he's smarter. He's better because he has trained himself to react with almost flawless accuracy. He's better because he never takes a play off.
That said, some skills are harder to teach than others. Some guys are easier to teach than others... is that talent? Yeah, kind of. I suppose.
Football comes down to 3 things Talent, Training, and Will. That's it. And in the NFL, for all intents and purposes, the talent is about equal. Then it's up to training and will. Do they know what to do? And will they do it? That's what separates NFL players.
No one can tell me that Martin Rucker can't block. The question is, Does he know how? and Will he? Well, after this training camp, you can bet he knows how. I think yesterday's waiver report will tell you whether or not he will.
-jj
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Jason, While what you said sounds good I totally disagree with what you are saying, its all about talent and the desire to be/get better
your comment about the difference in the level of talent I disagree with the players on this Browns team lack the talent of the top tier teams in the league.
Example Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player, he has more than one move to rush the passer and he is more of a complete player, I don't doubt that Wimbley works hard and has the heart he just does not have the talent.
Example 2, Brian Robiske IMO was overrated at Ohio State and not the fastest player in college now in the NFL he can't get separation and get open, once again thats about talent, he does not have the talent of the top wideouts in the NFL such as a Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne ect, if the guy could not run past college corners how is he supposed to run by more talented NFL corners? Massaquoi was the receiver people here thought was a project and would take a year or more to develop yet he is much more athletic and advanced than Robiske. IMO this is another example of Browns fans overrating players from Ohio State, I always thought watching OSU Brian Hartline would be a better pro receiver and he is showing this with the Dolphins.
There is a huge difference from the 53rd player on a roster and the top 10 guys on a roster, its all about the teams with the most talent in the league will win more games you can only scheme so much and talent will win most of the battles.
The idea of bringing in all the ex Jets was because they knew the system, though they know the system they are not the most talented guys which is why we are seeing the results we see, again it boils down to talent, you can have guys in the right position but the most talented guys are going to win the one on one battles.
I don't think the guys you are seeing today are Mangini's guys and he is taking this season to see who his guys are and replace them over the next couple of seasons with his type of players.
I think you are correct in some what you are saying about trust and why this offense is so conservative, I think Mangini believes lets just keep this simple and see if we can hang around and maybe steal a few games in the 4th quarter because he knows he does not have the talent to open things up and do alot of things many of us fans would like to see.
I don't mean to nitpick semantics here, but I think we're talking about two different things. You made one statement at the beginning. I agree with half of it, and I disagree with other. You said "Demarcus Ware is a better player than Kam Wimbley because he is a more talented player." DeMarcus Ware IS a better player than Kamerion Wimbley... but it's not because he's more talented. DeMarcus Ware is better skilled. There is a substantial difference.
DeMarcus Ware has developed the tools necessary to utilize his talent. You put him and Wimbley in a room full of cones and weight benches, you can't find 10 people out of 100 (not in the football industry) that can tell you which one's an All-Pro, and which one's on the verge of being a complete bust. The "talent" is almost equal. It's the skills that change the game. Ware has been disciplined (or disciplined himself) to react "correctly" or "effectively" to what happens in front of him. Wimbley has not.
Outside of tenacity and a general disregard for you personal well-being, I can't come up with a single non-adjustable difference between Wimbley's game and Ware's. What DeMarcus does on the field is learned behavior. It might look like instinct. It's not. It's technique.
Really this is an extension of the classic Nature vs. Nurture debate... a debate in which I almost always side with Nature. However, once you get to the NFL, the nature argument is over. Everyone is an elite athlete. Everyone is at the top of their field. The only thing that separates them is a few hundreths of a second on a stopwatch, and what's between their ears.
Same thing with Robiskie. Brian has as much talent as any receiver in the league. He just doesn't quite have the skills yet. Speed is a talent, separation is a skill. No one can run away from an NFL cornerback if that cornerback knows where you're going. No one. If you run a 4.4 and the CB runs a 4.5, you're still neck and neck for 70 yards. It's not about the speed. Everybody's fast.
Rarely do first year wide receivers make a significant impact. It's a lot to learn. Massaquoi has had some opportunities, simply because the Browns are very, very thin at wide receiver. And, he's got a little more gather and burst than Robiskie has at this point, and has demonstrated a bit better technique when it comes to route running.
A lot of this over-rated vs. under-rated stuff comes from the combine workouts... or similar measurables. Brian Hartline looks like a better pro prospect because he's more disciplined. He's also probably on the bottom end of the NFL when it comes to physical gifts (obviously, not so much that a layperson would notice). But, he started working on pristine technique at a very early age. He had some good coaches. And he's constantly worked on gaining edges. He's going to be fine.
Here's a good example to illustrate the point. Ray Lewis is one of the greatest linebackers ever to play this game... most people won't argue with me on that. But he's not noticeably more talented than, say, Omar Gaither. Ray Lewis is better because he wants to be better. He's better because he's smarter. He's better because he has trained himself to react with almost flawless accuracy. He's better because he never takes a play off.
That said, some skills are harder to teach than others. Some guys are easier to teach than others... is that talent? Yeah, kind of. I suppose.
Football comes down to 3 things Talent, Training, and Will. That's it. And in the NFL, for all intents and purposes, the talent is about equal. Then it's up to training and will. Do they know what to do? And will they do it? That's what separates NFL players.
No one can tell me that Martin Rucker can't block. The question is, Does he know how? and Will he? Well, after this training camp, you can bet he knows how. I think yesterday's waiver report will tell you whether or not he will.
-jj
Football comes down to 3 things Talent, Training, and Will. That's it. And in the NFL, for all intents and purposes, the talent is about equal. Then it's up to training and will. Do they know what to do? And will they do it? That's what separates NFL players.
And coaching comes down to getting the players to do it, and placing them in positions to succeed. Not seeing a whole lot of either from The HC, DC or OC.
-
Well, Mangini's contract is a lot more stable than most of the players. He's probably going to do this iron-fist thing for a good 12 months or so. The guys who can't take it will have to find work elsewhere.
-jj
If he don't win some games and have some success ... there is only one thing to do with that iron-fist.
There are too many cases around the league where new coaches (even fisrt time coaches) have taken over, inserted new QB's (even rookie QB's), had similar (if not more) turnover, with less facilities and have had great success. In fact, take all of the above and look at this weeks opponent and what John Harbaugh has done with a 5-11 team, rookie QB, and aging defense & o-line. He didn't command a golf-clap for a nice effort, he took them to the AFC Championship game and has continued to roll.
I'm tired of this baby step shit (with an iron fist? ... Ohhhhh, scary) ... win TODAY or get out of the freaking way.
If he don't win some games and have some success ... there is only one thing to do with that iron-fist.
There are too many cases around the league where new coaches (even fisrt time coaches) have taken over, inserted new QB's (even rookie QB's), had similar (if not more) turnover, with less facilities and have had great success. In fact, take all of the above and look at this weeks opponent and what John Harbaugh has done with a 5-11 team, rookie QB, and aging defense & o-line. He didn't command a golf-clap for a nice effort, he took them to the AFC Championship game and has continued to roll.
I'm tired of this baby step shit (with an iron fist? ... Ohhhhh, scary) ... win TODAY or get out of the freaking way.
I suppose you could swap out head coaches every 8 games or so. Eventually you'll find one I guess.
But my hunch is, the Browns aren't going to be consistently competitive until they get rid of some of the thin-skinned, soft-hearted attitude in the building. And start imposing their will on other players... much less teams. I mean, how long is Brodney Pool going to wander around in the secondary like Fred Astaire on roofies, before he decides to get into the head of the offense and attack the scheme. How many times is John St. Clair going to try to mirror block a guy twice as fast as him. Poor decision... playing with fear... That is not a lack of talent.
At some point these guys (the players) have to realize that they're the ones in the shiny helmets with their names stitched on their backs. And they can either master this system, and then make plays... or they can try to figure out how much money it's going to cost them on the open market to look this bad on film in an NFL uniform.
-jj
-
If he don't win some games and have some success ... there is only one thing to do with that iron-fist.
There are too many cases around the league where new coaches (even fisrt time coaches) have taken over, inserted new QB's (even rookie QB's), had similar (if not more) turnover, with less facilities and have had great success. In fact, take all of the above and look at this weeks opponent and what John Harbaugh has done with a 5-11 team, rookie QB, and aging defense & o-line. He didn't command a golf-clap for a nice effort, he took them to the AFC Championship game and has continued to roll.
I'm tired of this baby step shit (with an iron fist? ... Ohhhhh, scary) ... win TODAY or get out of the freaking way.
I suppose you could swap out head coaches every 8 games or so. Eventually you'll find one I guess.
But my hunch is, the Browns aren't going to be consistently competitive until they get rid of some of the thin-skinned, soft-hearted attitude in the building. And start imposing their will on other players... much less teams. I mean, how long is Brodney Pool going to wander around in the secondary like Fred Astaire on roofies, before he decides to get into the head of the offense and attack the scheme. How many times is John St. Clair going to try to mirror block a guy twice as fast as him. Poor decision... playing with fear... That is not a lack of talent.
At some point these guys (the players) have to realize that they're the ones in the shiny helmets with their names stitched on their backs. And they can either master this system, and then make plays... or they can try to figure out how much money it's going to cost them on the open market to look this bad on film in an NFL uniform.
-jj
I suppose you could swap out head coaches every 8 games or so. Eventually you'll find one I guess.
But my hunch is, the Browns aren't going to be consistently competitive until they get rid of some of the thin-skinned, soft-hearted attitude in the building. And start imposing their will on other players... much less teams. I mean, how long is Brodney Pool going to wander around in the secondary like Fred Astaire on roofies, before he decides to get into the head of the offense and attack the scheme. How many times is John St. Clair going to try to mirror block a guy twice as fast as him. Poor decision... playing with fear... That is not a lack of talent.
At some point these guys (the players) have to realize that they're the ones in the shiny helmets with their names stitched on their backs. And they can either master this system, and then make plays... or they can try to figure out how much money it's going to cost them on the open market to look this bad on film in an NFL uniform.
-jj
Nice...I like the not so veiled vinegar.
That's a first...you aren't an emotionless football dictionary....wooohoooo -
@jadbf said:
hey there's a thread about a muntinity by week 4, shouldn't you run right over there and post about $1700 bottles of water?Hey golf....fk off... or I'll go over to the Browns revolution and pull a bunch of threads about You thinking we could get a first and third for DA.... I think it was a dick move by Mangini...exclamation point. End of story, not going to defend it anymore.
What's the head coach dealing with water bottles for when we are:
Outscored 41-7 in the second half against the Minnesota Vikings and Denver Broncos.
Six-for-26 on third-down conversions this season, including 3-for-14 on Sunday
Another dick thing to say by the great Golfer!
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Sorry pal...you can't hurt my feelings or convince me it wasn't a dick move. Mangini needs not to worry about fines and worry about Outscored 41-7 in the second half against the Minnesota Vikings and Denver Broncos.
Six-for-26 on third-down conversions this season, including 3-for-14 on Sunday
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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