Take Tim Couch out and put in Derek Anderson
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Wow, I got the braintrust of the DA crew responding now (Lum & Sev).
Read my post again VERY slowly.
I didn't say Quinn was better. What I said is that the staff feels he's better (and/or likes his potential ceiling better). Its the exact line of reasoning that Lum himself preached to us for the 1.5 seasons DA was starting under RAC: listen to the coach. Mangini watched all the tape, watched all the practices, watched all of preseason, consulted with his staff and selected Quinn to start. Quinn won the competition (or DA lost it if you prefer). Either way, if Quinn is a collosal flame out what does that tell you?
I'll save you the DA homer response of "Mangini must suck at evaluating QB's". You'd have to lump in Ozzie Newsome and the entire Raven's staff along with RAC and his entire staff (remember, they selected Frye over DA). It sure looks a lot more likely that professional NFL talent evaluators (with their jobs at stake) are leery of DA both prior to and after his 2007 results. That's what the evidence tells us.
Sev, I'm really at a loss to try and discuss this topic with you. I can't believe that you honestly think that a) the distant owner has MANDATED that BQ start and/or that
appeasing fans by letting popularity dictate personnel decisions is in Mangini's best interest. Seriously, if you believe either of those things you should turn in your driver's license as I wouldn't trust you to properly interpret street signs.Wow, I got the braintrust of the DA crew responding now (Lum & Sev).
Read my post again VERY slowly.
I didn't say Quinn was better. What I said is that the staff feels he's better (and/or likes his potential ceiling better).
...so IF the staff makes the decision later this season to play Anderson over Quinn, it must mean they've decided Anderson really is better?
It's quite possible that the staff isn't making a judgment of which player is better just yet. I've been hearing for two years now that "we have to see what our first round pick can do"... maybe that's all they're doing.
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hint hint, a certain someone in the Browns organization happens to be a contributor on a beaver message board.
and no, I'm not posting any links.
Who's the certain someone, DA? Seriously?
You're precious.
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hint hint, a certain someone in the Browns organization happens to be a contributor on a beaver message board.
and no, I'm not posting any links.
Who's the certain someone, DA? Seriously?
You're precious.
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...so IF the staff makes the decision later this season to play Anderson over Quinn, it must mean they've decided Anderson really is better?
Yes, if the staff benches Quinn for Anderson its because they think Anderson gives them a better chance to win/has a higher ceiling.
It's quite possible that the staff isn't making a judgment of which player is better just yet. I've been hearing for two years now that "we have to see what our first round pick can do"... maybe that's all they're doing.
No, that makes no sense in this situation.
I can't imagine a team benching its starting, Pro Bowl QB to "see what the first round pick" can do unless the staff feels the current starter (DA) is seriously flawed.
Here's the side by side
- DA and BQ are virtually the same age
- DA's been to the Pro Bowl, BQ has not
- DA is in his fourth year (more experience than BQ by 1 season)
- DA has 27 starts (24 more prior to the season's start than BQ)
- A new coaching staff selected BQ to start
Take the names out. If you looked at this you'd have to infer that either the less experienced QB was just an undeniable talent, the more experienced QB has serious flaws, or some combination of the two.
If the confidence in DA's ceiling were there, you'd never let Quinn see the field. (Contract escalators, losing games, losing your coaching/GM job, etc.)
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Ah, so a backup DB was having a beer with Mangini when he let slip that he's a powerless puppet from the Belichick school and that Quinn went over his head to Lerner to get his starting job mandated?
This is Cleveland, not Oakland. I'm still not convinced that its a little voice in Lum's head that told him the Lerner-mandated-Quinn rumor.
What a ration of crap.
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Mop, what more reliable evidence is there than the depth chart? Seriously. Coaches are far from infaliable but the generally pick the best player at each position to start. They're usually right.
You'd rather I rely on your evaluation? Really?
Mop, what more reliable evidence is there than the depth chart? Seriously. Coaches are far from infaliable but the generally pick the best player at each position to start. They're usually right.
You'd rather I rely on your evaluation? Really?
No, I expect you to make your own evaluation which you have yet to do. But hey, some people just need their hand held sometimes. So here goes, for the last time.
You're right! the coaches do know more than we do, no doubt. But the situation is not that simple. Did you happen to notice the number of tickets sold the day after Quinn was named starter? I'm sure people planned on purchasing tickets last minute like they always do and those threats to boycott the team were never really serious.
And since you are so right that means that Frye is better than DA and DA is better than Quinn and Frye is better than both of them. And since Frye is the 3rd QB on every roster he's been on that would make Quinn the 4th QB or essentially, unemployed. Do you see now how your logic is flawed?
So we are both wrong (me, I'm an idiot. You, you just call it like you see it) and you have yet to tell me what Quinn has done so far to prove his worth. Since you cannot, I'll give you a list of his accomplishments.
1.Dropped to number 22 and the brilliant regime of Savage and Crennel scooped him up before some other lucky team got could get him with almost no financial risk to their team.
2. Held-out for top 10 money without top ten skill or actually getting picked in the top 20. But again, coaches know more than us right?
3. Charged (I forgot how much money) for autographs. This is wrong on soooo many levels.
4. Called some guys fags in Columbus. Classy, irrelavent really, but still classy
5. Got beat out by Frye and DA in training camp. (4th round pick and a 6th round pick for those of you who put a high premium on draft position)
6. Got punched by a douche bag D-lineman. Teammates must love BQ.
7. Gets his big break on primetime football against a very weak defense and loses. Really? You weren't ready after all of that time learning the game? You certainly have the tools? What could have been the problem? Oh that's right, teammates were ruining their own careers to make you look bad.
8. Hurts his finger, gets cleared to play, but chooses instead to go and see a family doctor on his day off for a note and excuse to quit on a lost season, his team, and his adoring fans. Way to take advantage of your break and repay the fans for their blind loyalty. I geuss a swolen finger on the offseason would have meant far less modeling deals in the summer.
11. Struggles all training camp and manages to eek out the starting job amid countless fan threats, jersey sales, and media spin. "Quinn is up and down" really means "his passes are high or low" "DA hasn't done anything to win the job" really means "DA didn't throw a touchdown on every play"
12. Starts the season and continues to exhibit the same bad traits he has showed the last two years and in training camp. Lack of poise, weak arm, inaccuracy, and overall cluelessness as to what he needs to do with the ball.
So disregard my original question. You are right again. I guess I really did answer it myself. The guy is OVERQUALIFIED! Hand him the key to the damn city!!
BERNIE WHO?!?!
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...so IF the staff makes the decision later this season to play Anderson over Quinn, it must mean they've decided Anderson really is better?
Yes, if the staff benches Quinn for Anderson its because they think Anderson gives them a better chance to win/has a higher ceiling.
It's quite possible that the staff isn't making a judgment of which player is better just yet. I've been hearing for two years now that "we have to see what our first round pick can do"... maybe that's all they're doing.
No, that makes no sense in this situation.
I can't imagine a team benching its starting, Pro Bowl QB to "see what the first round pick" can do unless the staff feels the current starter (DA) is seriously flawed.
Here's the side by side
- DA and BQ are virtually the same age
- DA's been to the Pro Bowl, BQ has not
- DA is in his fourth year (more experience than BQ by 1 season)
- DA has 27 starts (24 more prior to the season's start than BQ)
- A new coaching staff selected BQ to start
Take the names out. If you looked at this you'd have to infer that either the less experienced QB was just an undeniable talent, the more experienced QB has serious flaws, or some combination of the two.
If the confidence in DA's ceiling were there, you'd never let Quinn see the field. (Contract escalators, losing games, losing your coaching/GM job, etc.)
Yes, if the staff benches Quinn for Anderson its because they think Anderson gives them a better chance to win/has a higher ceiling.
No, that makes no sense in this situation.
I can't imagine a team benching its starting, Pro Bowl QB to "see what the first round pick" can do unless the staff feels the current starter (DA) is seriously flawed.
Here's the side by side
- DA and BQ are virtually the same age
- DA's been to the Pro Bowl, BQ has not
- DA is in his fourth year (more experience than BQ by 1 season)
- DA has 27 starts (24 more prior to the season's start than BQ)
- A new coaching staff selected BQ to start
Take the names out. If you looked at this you'd have to infer that either the less experienced QB was just an undeniable talent, the more experienced QB has serious flaws, or some combination of the two.
If the confidence in DA's ceiling were there, you'd never let Quinn see the field. (Contract escalators, losing games, losing your coaching/GM job, etc.)
Hey Greythan! This actually makes sense! I like it! I still don't think Quinn is good, but I like it!
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Clearly, you have an opinion which we all can relate to and your list seems more about supporting your opinion than presenting a case. Further, your opinion looks more anti-Quinn than pro-DA. That's fine. I have my opinion too. Its basically the opposite of yours: One, I don't think DA is a good bet for continued investment and two, I want to see what Quinn can do because of one. Been saying that for a while now. My opinion is more anti-DA as the long term answer than it is pro-Quinn. But, I'm a fan and I don't know shite. The ironic thing here is that it appears neither of us are enamored of either guy. That's troubling for both of us.
The point remains that you pick your starting QB based on ability to win now and your view on his potential (or ceiling). Read my last post in this thread responding to D&S. So, the evidence (forget opinions) seems to support some combination of the staff being cool on DA's potential and higher on Quinn's.
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How come when DA was going 13 - 11 that all anybody could say was put in the back up. Now that the back up is struggling the only alternative is that we need to stick with him?
Yea the Browns look like they need to get in a different QB. But, if BQ keeps playing this way for 8, 10 games then why would you want him to get a 11 million bonus? Save the money and use it to make the team better.
I mean to use a statement that I have heard before. How could DA play worse? This is all of course tied to IF BQ does not improve over the next several games. IF BQ actually plays well then this will be put on the back burner.
Last preseason can you really say that BQ would have won a QB competition? I mean DA played well in the 1 or 2 possessions he got in the first game and then got a concussion in game 2. Are you really trying to say that BQ rised up and took control in last years preseason? All BQ did last preseason is show that he might be able to play. He did not shine. And in 2007 the season went half a year before the coaching staff said opps. We called heads when we should have called tails. And changed the QB. Amd if you want to point to the 2007 preseason then yea BQ played well against 4th stringers.
And if you really look at last year DA started the season off 0 - 3 when he had no receivers and coming off a concussion. Over the next 5 games he lead a 4 win team to 3 wins and 2 losses and should have been 4 and 1 if not for dropped passes and ill timed interception.
So far this year BQ has not shown that he can move the ball well or generate first downs. But he has averaged 2 turnovers a game. Don't change now but if this trend continues then how could you possibly want to stay with him? What would be your reasoning then? Hopefully BQ improves and we don't have to make a switch. But if he keeps playing this way how could BQs own mother want him to stay in there?
And if you really look at last year DA started the season off 0 - 3 when he had no receivers and coming off a concussion. Over the next 5 games he lead a 4 win team to 3 wins and 2 losses and should have been 4 and 1 if not for dropped passes and ill timed interception.
So far this year BQ has not shown that he can move the ball well or generate first downs. But he has averaged 2 turnovers a game. Don't change now but if this trend continues then how could you possibly want to stay with him? What would be your reasoning then? Hopefully BQ improves and we don't have to make a switch. But if he keeps playing this way how could BQs own mother want him to stay in there?
cmac? You are my hero....*sigh*
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Oh, and D&S I have to say I continue to be jealous of your locale. Never been to Hawaii but look forward to going someday when my kids are older so my wife and I can make the trek. Looks unreal.
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Greythan since you decided to change the subject of your statement we will just have to go by exactly what you stated and my response...
Greythan States:
The current coaching staff "watched Quinn in training camp, preseason, and four games (tape I'm sure)" and picked him over DA.
What else do you need to know?
Point is, if you think Quinn sucks then we need a new QB. DA's already riding the pine behind him.
My response:
By that same line of reasoning than when Quinn was riding the pine in 2007 and 2008 and that coaching staff picked DA over quinn than we needed a qb than and Quinn did not need to be seen
You keep trying to over simplify this as if coaching careers/owner/fans=ticket & apparal sales/over controlling gm's(savage)/skill players/offensive/defensive schemes/injuries/inconsistent plays etc dont all factor in to the equation.
Because of the complicated nature of that business these decisions and political/monetary/personal etc issues effect how/when/who plays... You are trying to create almost elementary conclusions and arguments to hundreds of million dollars complicated issues.
Did you read ALL of the Variables that CAN affect decision making?
Greythan nows says:
can't believe that you honestly think that a) the distant owner has MANDATED that BQ start and/or that appeasing fans by letting popularity dictate personnel decisions is in Mangini's best interest
Did I state the owner SOLELY mandated anything in my response? Maybe YOU should read slowly or stop trying to use one line or one variable I stated as the whole part of my argument. Did you only see one thing in all of the possible variables that go into this situation?
I will congratulate you on trying to pick one item and construeing it as my whole argument.... Note to greythan this is a message board... you know where you can reference an entire post as a rebuttal and proof of statement....
braintrust indeed.....
talk about reading slowly.... your rebuttal argument was based on a oversimplification and flawed line of reasoning because there are too many variables that affect who starts and who does not. To state that anyone (including BQ during the 07/08) was riding the pine and whoever starts IF they fail than we are looking for a new qb was wrong.
For instance This argument.... Since a coaching staff chose in 2007 and the beginning of 2008 that DA should start and BQ on the bench it means according to your line of reasoning that IF DA fails than we are looking for a new qb..... Obviously there are other variables that can affect how or why DA is starting and it did not mean we needed to look for a new qb.
That would be a massive oversimplification and incorrect just like your rebuttal argument was. The Bq sitting on the bench had many other possible variables and so does DA sitting on the bench all of which must be taken into consideration before making such a grandiose and premature suggestion that if BQ fails we have to go looking for a new qb..... oversimplification to a very complicated situation that has multiple factors. Money is still a factor here and as far as I know a pretty important one but not the sole causality of any decision making in the NFL.
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How come when DA was going 13 - 11 that all anybody could say was put in the back up. Now that the back up is struggling the only alternative is that we need to stick with him?
Yea the Browns look like they need to get in a different QB. But, if BQ keeps playing this way for 8, 10 games then why would you want him to get a 11 million bonus? Save the money and use it to make the team better.
I mean to use a statement that I have heard before. How could DA play worse? This is all of course tied to IF BQ does not improve over the next several games. IF BQ actually plays well then this will be put on the back burner.
Last preseason can you really say that BQ would have won a QB competition? I mean DA played well in the 1 or 2 possessions he got in the first game and then got a concussion in game 2. Are you really trying to say that BQ rised up and took control in last years preseason? All BQ did last preseason is show that he might be able to play. He did not shine. And in 2007 the season went half a year before the coaching staff said opps. We called heads when we should have called tails. And changed the QB. Amd if you want to point to the 2007 preseason then yea BQ played well against 4th stringers.
And if you really look at last year DA started the season off 0 - 3 when he had no receivers and coming off a concussion. Over the next 5 games he lead a 4 win team to 3 wins and 2 losses and should have been 4 and 1 if not for dropped passes and ill timed interception.
So far this year BQ has not shown that he can move the ball well or generate first downs. But he has averaged 2 turnovers a game. Don't change now but if this trend continues then how could you possibly want to stay with him? What would be your reasoning then? Hopefully BQ improves and we don't have to make a switch. But if he keeps playing this way how could BQs own mother want him to stay in there?
And if you really look at last year DA started the season off 0 - 3 when he had no receivers
How is that any different now? Last year he at least had BE and Winslow. Now it is down to just BE.
The problems on O for CLE run deeper than just the QB. It was the case last year and remains the case this year.
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Inspecta, just trying to fill in for Shep to keep the board's post count up. I'm getting REAL tired.
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@jadbf said:
I'll go you even one more. and Masters and Jason have made more compelling arguements to convince me even more.Whether or not DA can develop into a franchise QB or even a stable starting QB somewhere is irrevelent. That ship has sailed from Cleveland.
Maybe he resurects himself in a new city, I just never see it happening here.
You are the same person as Solon stated who wrongly believed that some team would give up a 1st and 3rd for DA
DA has outperformed Quinn just like he outperformed Charlie Frye yet there were how many people on this forum including Masters who kept defending Charlie Frye insisting he was much better than DA when DA proved this was not true. how many people used the argument that it took Drew Bree's until his 3rd year and give Frye his 3rd year and he would be the quarterback, well we saw how that turned out.
So many people hate to admit they were wrong and act as though certain posters on here because they say something its like coming from the words of a NFL person. how many posters who post on this board work for a NFL team evaluating talent, we all have opinions.
Lumberg and Rich4eagle told everyone who would listen that Brady Quinn was terrible but nobody wanted to listen, Inspecta has 500+ post telling everybody how terrible DA is and Brady is the man and would be so much better, well now that we have seen Brady you would have to be Stevie Wonder not to see that Brady is not the answer and all the BQ fans were wrong, what more do you people need to see? Playground guy keeps making excuses for Brady, he can make all the excuses he wants but all you have to do is look at BQ's performance and he stinks.
Lums and Ate and others are correct about BQ but all others want to do his say what DA can't do, the fact is the Browns have not had a quarterback have a season like DA in 2007 in how many years and if anyone is blind enough to think BQ is just going to be good keep fooling yourself, yea there is a reason why it took him 3 years to be named the starter and thats because he is not very good, but all I keep hearing is excuses about Brady's game.
How many of us poster know what DA would do if you surround him with more talented players he may do good but I do know he has done better than Brady Quinn, DA did not dink and dunk his way to his great 2007 season and I don't care who we played he did this against NFL players the same NFL players that Quinn is stinking up the joint against.
People want to believe rumors we were offered a number 1 draft pick for Quinn, does anyone really believe a team would offer a number 1 for a unproven guy yet offer nothing for a quarterback coming off a 2007 Pro Bowl season........yea sure
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Clearly, you have an opinion which we all can relate to and your list seems more about supporting your opinion than presenting a case. Further, your opinion looks more anti-Quinn than pro-DA. That's fine. I have my opinion too. Its basically the opposite of yours: One, I don't think DA is a good bet for continued investment and two, I want to see what Quinn can do because of one. Been saying that for a while now. My opinion is more anti-DA as the long term answer than it is pro-Quinn. But, I'm a fan and I don't know shite. The ironic thing here is that it appears neither of us are enamored of either guy. That's troubling for both of us.
The point remains that you pick your starting QB based on ability to win now and your view on his potential (or ceiling). Read my last post in this thread responding to D&S. So, the evidence (forget opinions) seems to support some combination of the staff being cool on DA's potential and higher on Quinn's.
Clearly, you have an opinion which we all can relate to and your list seems more about supporting your opinion than presenting a case. Further, your opinion looks more anti-Quinn than pro-DA. That's fine. I have my opinion too. Its basically the opposite of yours: One, I don't think DA is a good bet for continued investment and two, I want to see what Quinn can do because of one. Been saying that for a while now. My opinion is more anti-DA as the long term answer than it is pro-Quinn. But, I'm a fan and I don't know shite. The ironic thing here is that it appears neither of us are enamored of either guy. That's troubling for both of us.
The point remains that you pick your starting QB based on ability to win now and your view on his potential (or ceiling). Read my last post in this thread responding to D&S. So, the evidence (forget opinions) seems to support some combination of the staff being cool on DA's potential and higher on Quinn's.
Truce,
We both can agree that we don't like how our QB situation looks right now. You are right though, I am more anti-Quinn than pro-DA. With that said, I'm not sold on DA as a long term answer either I just like what he can do compared to our other QBs. My biggest fear is that we keep either one of these guys and draft another QB! Holy S**T! Can you imagine going through all of this again!?
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And if you really look at last year DA started the season off 0 - 3 when he had no receivers
How is that any different now? Last year he at least had BE and Winslow. Now it is down to just BE.
The problems on O for CLE run deeper than just the QB. It was the case last year and remains the case this year.
Masters said:
How is that any different now? Last year he at least had BE and Winslow. Now it is down to just BE.The problems on O for CLE run deeper than just the QB. It was the case last year and remains the case this year.
The problems may run deeper but Brady ( Charlie Frye ) Quinn is a huge part of the problem.
Why didn't you use that reasoning last season for dissing Anderson?
Remember you told everybody Masters that Frye was better than Anderson......did you forget that one
Masters your track record on quarterback evaluations is not very good...........You also said Quinn would be a upgrade over DA....no looking too good uh
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@jadbf said:
I'll go you even one more. and Masters and Jason have made more compelling arguements to convince me even more.Whether or not DA can develop into a franchise QB or even a stable starting QB somewhere is irrevelent. That ship has sailed from Cleveland.
Maybe he resurects himself in a new city, I just never see it happening here.
You are the same person as Solon stated who wrongly believed that some team would give up a 1st and 3rd for DA
DA has outperformed Quinn just like he outperformed Charlie Frye yet there were how many people on this forum including Masters who kept defending Charlie Frye insisting he was much better than DA when DA proved this was not true. how many people used the argument that it took Drew Bree's until his 3rd year and give Frye his 3rd year and he would be the quarterback, well we saw how that turned out.
So many people hate to admit they were wrong and act as though certain posters on here because they say something its like coming from the words of a NFL person. how many posters who post on this board work for a NFL team evaluating talent, we all have opinions.
Lumberg and Rich4eagle told everyone who would listen that Brady Quinn was terrible but nobody wanted to listen, Inspecta has 500+ post telling everybody how terrible DA is and Brady is the man and would be so much better, well now that we have seen Brady you would have to be Stevie Wonder not to see that Brady is not the answer and all the BQ fans were wrong, what more do you people need to see? Playground guy keeps making excuses for Brady, he can make all the excuses he wants but all you have to do is look at BQ's performance and he stinks.
Lums and Ate and others are correct about BQ but all others want to do his say what DA can't do, the fact is the Browns have not had a quarterback have a season like DA in 2007 in how many years and if anyone is blind enough to think BQ is just going to be good keep fooling yourself, yea there is a reason why it took him 3 years to be named the starter and thats because he is not very good, but all I keep hearing is excuses about Brady's game.
How many of us poster know what DA would do if you surround him with more talented players he may do good but I do know he has done better than Brady Quinn, DA did not dink and dunk his way to his great 2007 season and I don't care who we played he did this against NFL players the same NFL players that Quinn is stinking up the joint against.
People want to believe rumors we were offered a number 1 draft pick for Quinn, does anyone really believe a team would offer a number 1 for a unproven guy yet offer nothing for a quarterback coming off a 2007 Pro Bowl season........yea sure
You are the same person as Solon stated who wrongly believed that some team would give up a 1st and 3rd for DA
DA has outperformed Quinn just like he outperformed Charlie Frye yet there were how many people on this forum including Masters who kept defending Charlie Frye insisting he was much better than DA when DA proved this was not true. how many people used the argument that it took Drew Bree's until his 3rd year and give Frye his 3rd year and he would be the quarterback, well we saw how that turned out.
Ahem.....I love when old friends show up (and change history). Who could it be knocking on my door.
First off, I have only been on the board under the screen name Masters since Oct of 08'. Pretty sure we weren't talking about Charlie Frye. Before that, I didn't post much at all on this board. I was on another forum. So who could you be.... anyway I digress.
I have never said or insisted Frye was much better than DA. But rather that DA wasn't better, especially when looking beyond that day and what they could mold into. Last time I checked DA has lost camp battles to said Charlie Frye, and Quinn. Also, pretty sure he now shares the same job as Frye, back up QB on bad NFL team.
I am quite curious how on one hand you can mock someone for thinking some NFL team might have offered a 1st and 3rd for DA when CLE tagged him w/ that value when he was a RFA, then on the other go on about how DA is good. So he's good, just not good enough for another QB starved NFL team to give up a 1st and 3rd rounder? I am pretty certain that most NFL teams would gladly give that up for a QB they think is a candiate for the pro bowl every year.
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Masters said:
How is that any different now? Last year he at least had BE and Winslow. Now it is down to just BE.The problems on O for CLE run deeper than just the QB. It was the case last year and remains the case this year.
The problems may run deeper but Brady ( Charlie Frye ) Quinn is a huge part of the problem.
Why didn't you use that reasoning last season for dissing Anderson?
Remember you told everybody Masters that Frye was better than Anderson......did you forget that one
Masters your track record on quarterback evaluations is not very good...........You also said Quinn would be a upgrade over DA....no looking too good uh
The problems may run deeper but Brady ( Charlie Frye ) Quinn is a huge part of the problem.
Why didn't you use that reasoning last season for dissing Anderson?
Remember you told everybody Masters that Frye was better than Anderson......did you forget that one
Masters your track record on quarterback evaluations is not very good...........You also said Quinn would be a upgrade over DA....no looking too good uh
Um, I did say the problems were deeper last year as well. But QB was a problem as well. You can't fix them all at once.
No, I said DA wasn't better than Frre, when looking beyond today.
Now go call your brother in law with the Steelers.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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