The State of the 2024 Browns: Secondary
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Fantastic write up.
I’m definitely looking for good things from Ward. And l’m pulling for Kahlef Hailassie, because if Timmy falls down the well, that’s the dude l’m calling.
Greg Newsome has fantastic hair. I think at times it makes his head look big with a helmet on because he has so much hair. I dig it.
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The DLine and Secondary are connected at the hip.
The Secondary has to be good enough to cover the receivers long enough for the DLine to pressure the QB. And the DLine has to pressure the QB SOONISH as no DB's are going to be able to cover the field while a QB gets to stand and survey all of the receivers.
The DLine and Secondary are connected at the hip.
The Secondary has to be good enough to cover the receivers long enough for the DLine to pressure the QB. And the DLine has to pressure the QB SOONISH as no DB's are going to be able to cover the field while a QB gets to stand and survey all of the receivers.
Agreed - well said! The stand and survey types like the cerebral and highly accurate cement shoe'd Bernie Kosar seem to be getting phased out with the joystick mobile guys. Some perceived stand and survey types like Marino and Brady had a lot of defensive players commenting that they were are lot more difficult to sack than it looks like they'd be. Bruce Smith used to say he and his defensive teammates found Marino was the toughest guy to sack. He said on a Rochester sports radio show back in the day that Marino doesn't have a blind side. He'd say every time you think you're closing in on him - he knows exactly where to step out of the way in any direction at the last possible second. Rumor had it Brady was the same type of matador without a blind side. Not a scrambler per say - but a side step/back step/quick step forward at the final split second to make the pass rusher miss and make the throw. Those unique assets/intangibles can wreak havoc on a secondary. The Browns not only have to deal with Lamar Jackson twice a year - now they'll also have Russell Wilson and/or Justin Fields to contain. When the Browns went out to Denver last year - that wasn't as easy as they thought it would be with Wilson.
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Fantastic write up.
I’m definitely looking for good things from Ward. And l’m pulling for Kahlef Hailassie, because if Timmy falls down the well, that’s the dude l’m calling.
Greg Newsome has fantastic hair. I think at times it makes his head look big with a helmet on because he has so much hair. I dig it.
Fantastic write up.
I’m definitely looking for good things from Ward. And l’m pulling for Kahlef Hailassie, because if Timmy falls down the well, that’s the dude l’m calling.
Greg Newsome has fantastic hair. I think at times it makes his head look big with a helmet on because he has so much hair. I dig it.
? That probably feels like an extra pad of protection; but that's going to be really freakin hot inside the helmet in the type of heat they practice in during training camp.
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Not that you need another 2 cents from me - but you're gonna get it anyway. When looking at all the guys auditioning for spots on this team - I found myself asking who is going to be the next Leigh Bodden out of a little known college football program at Duquesne (pronounced Do-cane)? He was an undrafted 6'1"185lb Corner that came to training camp in 2003 and made the team. It was like a football version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - some kid from East Tuesday ends up with the winning ticket. He developed so well he eventually became a reliable starter who played in Cleveland for 6 years and drew interest from other teams. Bill Belichick later signed him in NE; but an ankle injury he had in Cleveland never stopped re-aggravating itself. When we look at the names, heights, weights, and college programs of all these prospects, one never really knows what guy is going to turn himself into that winning ticket - so it'll be interesting to see what unfolds.
Okay, it's obvious this thread needs something a little more exciting than this old man's takes on Defensive Backs - so I found a story worth sharing as written on the Browns website. https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/martin-emerson-jr-leans-into-spirit-of-an-eagle-as-he-prepares-for-third-season-with-the-browns
Martin Emerson Jr. leans into spirit of an eagle as he prepares for third season with the Browns
Emerson played an integral role in Browns’ defensive success during the 2023 season
Jun 24, 2024 at 10:54 AM
Kelsey RussoStaff Writer
As CB Martin Emerson Jr. wrapped up his Browns media day session, he wanted one last picture with a special piece of jewelry. He pulled out a chain with a pendant of an eagle's head, clasped it around his neck and posed.
The eagle holds a certain significance to Emerson. It first started with the mascot of his high school, Pine Forest High School, in Pensacola, Fla. Yet, its meaning extends past the connection to his high school.
"The top of the food chain is the eagle, and only eagles fly with certain eagles," Emerson said. "So, I just look at myself as an eagle."
That mentality shapes his outlook as he enters his third season with the Browns and in the league. He played an important role in the secondary's success during the 2023 season, as he led the team with four interceptions for 24 yards and tied the team lead with 14 passes defended. Emerson also recorded 59 tackles, one tackle for loss and started 12 of the 16 games he played in during the 2023 season.
Yet, he didn't always play on the defensive side of the ball. When Emerson was in high school, he dreamed of playing quarterback or wide receiver. But his head coach Jason McDonald had different plans. McDonald moved Emerson to the secondary, and specifically to cornerback.
The switch paid off.
Emerson said a few weeks later, he began receiving college offers. Emerson committed to Mississippi State and played three seasons with the Bulldogs, where he tallied 154 tackles, six tackles for loss, one interception, 16 pass breakups and one forced fumble.
"I tell him to this day, 'I appreciate you; you saw it in me,'" Emerson said. "And I'm thankful that I made that switch."
The Browns then drafted Emerson in the third round of the 2022 NFL Draft. Now in his third year in the NFL, he wants to take the next step – both individually and as a team.
"I feel like each year I show tremendous improvement," Emerson said. "But there's also places in my game where I can just get better. This year, I want to come and build off last year. The sky's the limit when I think about this group. I just want to take it to our full potential and just reach our full potential because we work so hard. We put in the work, and I just want to show the world that the Browns are a contender."
With that goal in mind, Emerson said he focused his offseason on flexibility and speed, building up his wind for the regular season. He also worked closely with veteran cornerback Denzel Ward during the offseason. Ward said Emerson was on his hip throughout the spring and summer months, learning from and spending time with Ward.
Emerson traveled to Florida and stayed with Ward to train. Ward had opened the invitation to all the Browns corners to come visit and train with him, and Emerson took him up on his offer. Ward said they worked out every day together, focusing on their techniques and lifting.
Over the three days of minicamp, Emerson displayed that speed in his ability to defend and break up passes. He broke up a pass intended for TE David Njoku during a 7-on-7 red zone drill on the final day of camp, as well as tightly defended a reception made by WR Cedric Tillman in the end zone.
Cornerbacks coach Brandon Lynch saw a level of consistency from Emerson throughout OTAs and minicamp, which impressed him.
"I know that we talk a lot about versatility, but really consistency and being available," Lynch said. "He's an extremely tough young guy who's accountable. He's resilient to the details, and he shows it on display."
The Browns have a talented cornerback room led by Ward and Greg Newsome II. Yet, Emerson has developed over the last two seasons to play an important role as he's learned from the veterans in the room. And Ward sees potential for Emerson as he steps into his third season with the Browns.
"He's a special player," Ward said. "Got high talent, physical player, tall. I mean, he's got the capability of achieving a lot of things in his league, like being an All-Pro type of player and a number one corner."
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Great analysis. Thanks for the research, effort and time it took to put this together @flugel.
I'll admit, as a former interior OL, my focus when watching games is always the LOS and the box. To steal a phrase from past coaches, I only notice the secondary when something really good or something really bad happens.
That being said, this Browns secondary is, in my opinion, the best since Frank Minnifield and Hanford Dixon. The original Dawgs! I do agree that we have our best player in the secondary in Denzel Ward since Eric Turner (gone too soon).
The secondary nicely compliments the DL and we all know how they work hand in hand.
As a team, it would be awesome to lead the league's defenses in sacks and INTs!
Living in Colts' Country, I see similarities in the value of a single player. The Colts defense of the late 2000s was a completely different animal when Bob Sanders (Erie, PA/Iowa) was on the field than when he was not. The Browns defense and secondary is a completely different animal when Denzel Ward is on the field. Ward needs to stay healthy - whatever it takes.
I don't want to jump the gun, but I'm also not living under a rock. I hope the Browns Defensive Staff is learning, growing and soaking up as much knowledge as possible from Jim Schwartz. I know last year he said he wasn't interested in being an HC again, but time, flattery and money can change opinions...easily. Hopefully, there is a plan just in case!
Three weeks and a day from training camp so I'll recite the first cheer my Dad (also gone too soon) taught me. Say it with me because you know the words.
"HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!) HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!)"
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Great analysis. Thanks for the research, effort and time it took to put this together @flugel.
I'll admit, as a former interior OL, my focus when watching games is always the LOS and the box. To steal a phrase from past coaches, I only notice the secondary when something really good or something really bad happens.
That being said, this Browns secondary is, in my opinion, the best since Frank Minnifield and Hanford Dixon. The original Dawgs! I do agree that we have our best player in the secondary in Denzel Ward since Eric Turner (gone too soon).
The secondary nicely compliments the DL and we all know how they work hand in hand.
As a team, it would be awesome to lead the league's defenses in sacks and INTs!
Living in Colts' Country, I see similarities in the value of a single player. The Colts defense of the late 2000s was a completely different animal when Bob Sanders (Erie, PA/Iowa) was on the field than when he was not. The Browns defense and secondary is a completely different animal when Denzel Ward is on the field. Ward needs to stay healthy - whatever it takes.
I don't want to jump the gun, but I'm also not living under a rock. I hope the Browns Defensive Staff is learning, growing and soaking up as much knowledge as possible from Jim Schwartz. I know last year he said he wasn't interested in being an HC again, but time, flattery and money can change opinions...easily. Hopefully, there is a plan just in case!
Three weeks and a day from training camp so I'll recite the first cheer my Dad (also gone too soon) taught me. Say it with me because you know the words.
"HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!) HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!)"
As a team, it would be awesome to lead the league in sacks and INTs!
Well, we were 6th in Sacks last year.....and 3rd (5-way tie) in INT's. But we were 21st in sacks allowed and dead last in INT's thrown. We had some rather poor QB play last year which accounts for some of those negative stats, but the OL has to come together (and stay together, please) and protect the QB better this year.
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As a team, it would be awesome to lead the league in sacks and INTs!
Well, we were 6th in Sacks last year.....and 3rd (5-way tie) in INT's. But we were 21st in sacks allowed and dead last in INT's thrown. We had some rather poor QB play last year which accounts for some of those negative stats, but the OL has to come together (and stay together, please) and protect the QB better this year.
Well, we were 6th in Sacks last year.....and 3rd (5-way tie) in INT's. But we were 21st in sacks allowed and dead last in INT's thrown. We had some rather poor QB play last year which accounts for some of those negative stats, but the OL has to come together (and stay together, please) and protect the QB better this year.
I amended. I meant strictly defensive stats.
My bad on the confusion.
Fully agreed on your OL take.
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Great analysis. Thanks for the research, effort and time it took to put this together @flugel.
I'll admit, as a former interior OL, my focus when watching games is always the LOS and the box. To steal a phrase from past coaches, I only notice the secondary when something really good or something really bad happens.
That being said, this Browns secondary is, in my opinion, the best since Frank Minnifield and Hanford Dixon. The original Dawgs! I do agree that we have our best player in the secondary in Denzel Ward since Eric Turner (gone too soon).
The secondary nicely compliments the DL and we all know how they work hand in hand.
As a team, it would be awesome to lead the league's defenses in sacks and INTs!
Living in Colts' Country, I see similarities in the value of a single player. The Colts defense of the late 2000s was a completely different animal when Bob Sanders (Erie, PA/Iowa) was on the field than when he was not. The Browns defense and secondary is a completely different animal when Denzel Ward is on the field. Ward needs to stay healthy - whatever it takes.
I don't want to jump the gun, but I'm also not living under a rock. I hope the Browns Defensive Staff is learning, growing and soaking up as much knowledge as possible from Jim Schwartz. I know last year he said he wasn't interested in being an HC again, but time, flattery and money can change opinions...easily. Hopefully, there is a plan just in case!
Three weeks and a day from training camp so I'll recite the first cheer my Dad (also gone too soon) taught me. Say it with me because you know the words.
"HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!) HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!)"
Great analysis. Thanks for the research, effort and time it took to put this together @flugel.
I'll admit, as a former interior OL, my focus when watching games is always the LOS and the box. To steal a phrase from past coaches, I only notice the secondary when something really good or something really bad happens.
That being said, this Browns secondary is, in my opinion, the best since Frank Minnifield and Hanford Dixon. The original Dawgs! I do agree that we have our best player in the secondary in Denzel Ward since Eric Turner (gone too soon).
The secondary nicely compliments the DL and we all know how they work hand in hand.
As a team, it would be awesome to lead the league in sacks and INTs!
Living in Colts' Country, I see similarities in the value of a single player. The Colts defense of the late 2000s was a completely different animal when Bob Sanders (Erie, PA/Iowa) was on the field than when he was not. The Browns defense and secondary is a completely different animal when Denzel Ward is on the field. Ward needs to stay healthy - whatever it takes.
I don't want to jump the gun, but I'm also not living under a rock. I hope the Browns Defensive Staff is learning, growing and soaking up as much knowledge as possible from Jim Schwartz. I know last year he said he wasn't interested in being an HC again, but time, flattery and money can change opinions...easily. Hopefully, there is a plan just in case!
Three weeks and a day from training camp so I'll recite the first cheer my Dad (also gone too soon) taught me. Say it with me because you know the words.
"HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!) HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO! (HOO HOO!)"
Thank you AP1! Much appreciated and glad you liked it! From 1 former interior offensive lineman to another, as important as the secondary is - I rarely ever spend much time dissecting it during the seasons. I tried to get some names out there for us to get a little acquainted with before training camp starts in a few weeks aside from the ones we already know. I'm really looking forward to football season as always. I think we can take that next step if the injury volume doesn't get quite as out of control as it did last year.
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Well, we were 6th in Sacks last year.....and 3rd (5-way tie) in INT's. But we were 21st in sacks allowed and dead last in INT's thrown. We had some rather poor QB play last year which accounts for some of those negative stats, but the OL has to come together (and stay together, please) and protect the QB better this year.
I amended. I meant strictly defensive stats.
My bad on the confusion.
Fully agreed on your OL take.
I meant strictly defensive stats.
I knew that (no, my bad
)....and I thought that was pretty good, but always room for improvement...then I thought of the offensive side of the ball and how those numbers would be on the other side of the spectrum.
The Browns defense and secondary is a completely different animal when Denzel Ward is on the field. Ward needs to stay healthy
Hospital Ward as ballpeen calls him. We can pretty much count on him being injured and out for about 4 games...but I think the secondary has been better poised, personnel wise, to weather the storm of his absence than in the past. But we certainly need Ward & Garrett on the field! Just like we need Watson, Conklin / Dewand Jones, Wills and Chubb on offense. We need to have some luck with the injury bug. We need our starters on the field.
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Enthusiastic write up, bubs. Again, I know how much time this takes and I appreciate those efforts.
Even though there is talent and ability, for me, DB is home. So I suppose I'm a bit more bullish on this group than most.
The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom. While there are several concerns I have, safety situation is the most concerning. The biggest of those concerns being Delpit having possibly reached his mental ceiling on the field.
His lapses in coverage and in run fits are a huge issue, and there are two seasons of film on it now. For all that he does good and great, there is an equal amount that can be exploited.
The rest, in order.
- Depth behind Grant and Juan
- Emerson's physical abilities vs formation constraints
- Newsome not fulfilling his potential as the possible#1 CB on this roster.
For all the hope, I have reservations. Because this schedule is going to test this group far beyond what they got the first half of last year's season.
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Enthusiastic write up, bubs. Again, I know how much time this takes and I appreciate those efforts.
Even though there is talent and ability, for me, DB is home. So I suppose I'm a bit more bullish on this group than most.
The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom. While there are several concerns I have, safety situation is the most concerning. The biggest of those concerns being Delpit having possibly reached his mental ceiling on the field.
His lapses in coverage and in run fits are a huge issue, and there are two seasons of film on it now. For all that he does good and great, there is an equal amount that can be exploited.
The rest, in order.
- Depth behind Grant and Juan
- Emerson's physical abilities vs formation constraints
- Newsome not fulfilling his potential as the possible#1 CB on this roster.
For all the hope, I have reservations. Because this schedule is going to test this group far beyond what they got the first half of last year's season.
The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom.
while I am not going to entirely disagree, It didn't help that we didn't come close to getting any pressure on Stroud, as i remember we didn't come close to even getting one sack. So it is pretty easy and near sighted to put all the blame on the secondary.
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Enthusiastic write up, bubs. Again, I know how much time this takes and I appreciate those efforts.
Even though there is talent and ability, for me, DB is home. So I suppose I'm a bit more bullish on this group than most.
The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom. While there are several concerns I have, safety situation is the most concerning. The biggest of those concerns being Delpit having possibly reached his mental ceiling on the field.
His lapses in coverage and in run fits are a huge issue, and there are two seasons of film on it now. For all that he does good and great, there is an equal amount that can be exploited.
The rest, in order.
- Depth behind Grant and Juan
- Emerson's physical abilities vs formation constraints
- Newsome not fulfilling his potential as the possible#1 CB on this roster.
For all the hope, I have reservations. Because this schedule is going to test this group far beyond what they got the first half of last year's season.
Enthusiastic write up, bubs. Again, I know how much time this takes and I appreciate those efforts.
Even though there is talent and ability, for me, DB is home. So I suppose I'm a bit more bullish on this group than most.
The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom. While there are several concerns I have, safety situation is the most concerning. The biggest of those concerns being Delpit having possibly reached his mental ceiling on the field.
His lapses in coverage and in run fits are a huge issue, and there are two seasons of film on it now. For all that he does good and great, there is an equal amount that can be exploited.
The rest, in order.
- Depth behind Grant and Juan
- Emerson's physical abilities vs formation constraints
- Newsome not fulfilling his potential as the possible#1 CB on this roster.
For all the hope, I have reservations. Because this schedule is going to test this group far beyond what they got the first half of last year's season.
No worries T. I appreciate your feedback all the same. I can't really argue anything you said at this point.
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Enthusiastic write up, bubs. Again, I know how much time this takes and I appreciate those efforts.
Even though there is talent and ability, for me, DB is home. So I suppose I'm a bit more bullish on this group than most.
The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom. While there are several concerns I have, safety situation is the most concerning. The biggest of those concerns being Delpit having possibly reached his mental ceiling on the field.
His lapses in coverage and in run fits are a huge issue, and there are two seasons of film on it now. For all that he does good and great, there is an equal amount that can be exploited.
The rest, in order.
- Depth behind Grant and Juan
- Emerson's physical abilities vs formation constraints
- Newsome not fulfilling his potential as the possible#1 CB on this roster.
For all the hope, I have reservations. Because this schedule is going to test this group far beyond what they got the first half of last year's season.
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Yup. Our D was no match for them in that playoff game. And our offense kept giving them the ball...and points. Basically a crash landing to our season.
Flacco had his worst game throwing 2 INTs for Houston TDs. Even though Ward returned from injury to play in the game -he didn't look at all like the guy he was pre-injury in many of the highlights I saw of him that game.
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The secondary, as a whole and individually, were undressed by Houston, top to bottom.
while I am not going to entirely disagree, It didn't help that we didn't come close to getting any pressure on Stroud, as i remember we didn't come close to even getting one sack. So it is pretty easy and near sighted to put all the blame on the secondary.
while I am not going to entirely disagree, It didn't help that we didn't come close to getting any pressure on Stroud, as i remember we didn't come close to even getting one sack. So it is pretty easy and near sighted to put all the blame on the secondary.
I'm not putting the totality of the Houston loss on the secondary itself. I am well aware of all the causes, both offensively and defensively, from that game.
My comments discount the pass rush itself. Technique and assignment breakdowns, mental lapses and flat out losing the chess match of personnel matchups - that doesn't just go away in one off season, unless major improvement and growth happens.
These things, regardless of pass rush, have been an issue I've pointed out since the Chicago game. Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season.... Until it didn't.
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while I am not going to entirely disagree, It didn't help that we didn't come close to getting any pressure on Stroud, as i remember we didn't come close to even getting one sack. So it is pretty easy and near sighted to put all the blame on the secondary.
I'm not putting the totality of the Houston loss on the secondary itself. I am well aware of all the causes, both offensively and defensively, from that game.
My comments discount the pass rush itself. Technique and assignment breakdowns, mental lapses and flat out losing the chess match of personnel matchups - that doesn't just go away in one off season, unless major improvement and growth happens.
These things, regardless of pass rush, have been an issue I've pointed out since the Chicago game. Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season.... Until it didn't.
Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season....
Truth. Just look at San Fran missing the game winning FG. We had some good fortune. (I remember in the 4th quarter, my 49er friend texting me, "Your Browns are beating us up.") We, in fact, played them tough...
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while I am not going to entirely disagree, It didn't help that we didn't come close to getting any pressure on Stroud, as i remember we didn't come close to even getting one sack. So it is pretty easy and near sighted to put all the blame on the secondary.
I'm not putting the totality of the Houston loss on the secondary itself. I am well aware of all the causes, both offensively and defensively, from that game.
My comments discount the pass rush itself. Technique and assignment breakdowns, mental lapses and flat out losing the chess match of personnel matchups - that doesn't just go away in one off season, unless major improvement and growth happens.
These things, regardless of pass rush, have been an issue I've pointed out since the Chicago game. Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season.... Until it didn't.
I'm not putting the totality of the Houston loss on the secondary itself. I am well aware of all the causes, both offensively and defensively, from that game.
My comments discount the pass rush itself. Technique and assignment breakdowns, mental lapses and flat out losing the chess match of personnel matchups - that doesn't just go away in one off season, unless major improvement and growth happens.
These things, regardless of pass rush, have been an issue I've pointed out since the Chicago game. Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season.... Until it didn't.
you could put spyrgon winn back there with all the time in the world. And yes he will pick apart even the best of secondaries
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while I am not going to entirely disagree, It didn't help that we didn't come close to getting any pressure on Stroud, as i remember we didn't come close to even getting one sack. So it is pretty easy and near sighted to put all the blame on the secondary.
I'm not putting the totality of the Houston loss on the secondary itself. I am well aware of all the causes, both offensively and defensively, from that game.
My comments discount the pass rush itself. Technique and assignment breakdowns, mental lapses and flat out losing the chess match of personnel matchups - that doesn't just go away in one off season, unless major improvement and growth happens.
These things, regardless of pass rush, have been an issue I've pointed out since the Chicago game. Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season.... Until it didn't.
I'm not putting the totality of the Houston loss on the secondary itself. I am well aware of all the causes, both offensively and defensively, from that game.
My comments discount the pass rush itself. Technique and assignment breakdowns, mental lapses and flat out losing the chess match of personnel matchups - that doesn't just go away in one off season, unless major improvement and growth happens.
These things, regardless of pass rush, have been an issue I've pointed out since the Chicago game. Good fortune, and a favorable schedule, worked to our advantage most of the season.... Until it didn't.
I'm most worried about Safety like you pointed out earlier in this thread (depth and talent). You were right I did grade our secondary a little higher than I probably should have.
I recently brought up Justin Simmons as a 2 year band aid that would immediately make our Safety position better. He's an instinctive vet that sees things pre-snap; which is VERY important to the communication that is supposed to take place in the back tier. To be effective, experience and an ability to quickly diagnose what's coming via formations and tendencies is something Simmons offers that is currently lacking from our Safeties. Since the Watson trade drained our 1st round picks, while we traded the 2023 2nd round pick and we flushed the 2024 2nd round pick down the toilet - we need something of value in our back tier with the current schedule we're looking at. I'll roll out the red carpet for a great open field tackler like Simmons any time. Great instincts are just as important as footspeed to being in position to make the tackle or defend the pass. They're also a big reason Simmons made the Pro Bowl as recently as last year.
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I'd be good with Simmons, depending on cost and cap situation.
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