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There's no easy way out

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  • Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

  • O osusev

    Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

    @osusev said:

    Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

    It's a guy who is willing to throw caution to the wind (i.e. force plays that result in turn overs) vs. a guy who will not try to force things and won't throw caution to the wind (resulting in check downs, throw aways, and sacks).

    If it was easy or possible to contian or leash DA, don't you think someone would have done that too him since since his Sophmore year in college? DA has how many NFL starts now and he still goes out and throws the ball around like he did in the second half yesterday? Down or not. Trying to make something happen or not. No one watching can put an excuse on the 3 picks DA threw (or the other near 2 picks).

    It has zero to do with containing, leashing, or unleashing at this point. Neither guy can be judged or succeed in the current situation. The talent on the field for the majority of offensive snaps is less than it was last year.

  • Sev's just a zany guy. Cut him some slack.

  • Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    ? 1 Reply

  • Thanks for the compliments, fellas. I like to still talk about the actual football, and not just complain about being a fan of a bad team.

    Because that's what we are. Either realize that and get used to it or quit and I don't want to quit. So, we have to talk about the bad football.

    Back to the thread. Ha. Didn't realize about the thread title until you said that, Leg. Funny stuff. Now I can't stop hearing it.

    Anyway, sev, you are just plain wrong about the ND "hype" machine. 69 TDs and 14 INTs in 2 years. Best player on bad teams for 2 years. Played well in big games (despite the myth) in bad circumstances. Used all his weapons, RB, TE, WR, very well. Those are the facts, no hype involved. Besides, I would argue more people, media and fans, hate ND more than love ND so I think the opposite is more likely true: his ND pedigree was something he had to overcome.

    So what happend to that prospect? Grey has a good theory. Either the game is too fast for him and he can't translate his skills quickly enough -- he wouldn't be the first -- or he's been damaged in his time here.

    I don't think there's enough evidence yet for the former and the latter seems much more likely.

    Which is why I hate what's happening right now. It's bad enough to suffer through this type of rebuilding but it's much, MUCH worse suffering through this for no purpose whatsoever.

    No matter how bad BQ was playing, the only way for him to improve is to keep playing. Sev says he had 6 bad games; okay, let's say that's true, for the purposes of discussion.

    It's SIX bad games. THAT'S IT. Two of them were against legitimate playoff teams (BAL, MIN), and the rest were against teams that are WAY ahead of us in talent. Not to mention the finger thing, the coaching and coordinator change, the QB competition, etc.

    Call them excuses if you want to but they remain FACTS. SIX games with all those other factors at the most difficult position in sports and people are convinced Quinn is the problem?

    How many bad games has DA had? How many bad games did all those "busts" have that sev mentioned? How did JaMarcus look yesterday? What about Edwards? What about Henne? Those guys all busts too?

    The reality is that all young QBs are going to have bad games; that's how they learn how to play the game and the only way to see if they recover from bad games is to let them keep playing.

    We have so many issues on this team that it's really disturbing that Mangini would reopen this can of worms this quickly. Which tells me that it's not about BQ or DA at all. There's something else much bigger wrong here and I'm starting to really fear that Mangini has a bad case of Crennelism (a condition marked by the stubborn insistence that everything's fine and that all it will take for things to improve is for guys to execute the called plays better.)

  • I'm still befuddled that Quinn was pulled because if you look at the 1st half drive charts, the offensive drives were 16, 13, 32 and 9 yards before the time ran out of the half on the last drive. That's only 1 3 and out. Sure I'd love to see longer drives but its not like they didn't move the ball at all. The real problem reveals itself when you look at the Ravens drives: 31, 65 ,92, and 80. If the defense can't get them off the field it doesn't matter if I'm quarterbacking this team.

  • O osusev

    Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    @osusev said:

    Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    2 threats to throw two is always better than 1, no matter what. Doesn't matter if BE is catching now if teams can roll coverage to him all day.

    Hubbard never started a game last year. It was Steptoe, Cribbs, and Winslow splitting out wide last season while Stallworth was out. But again, while no legit #2 WR, there was a TE who made up for that in Winslow.

    CLE can get better, but a QB change is not going to fix or drastically improve the offense right now. Unless the occassional forced play that shouldn't work out but does is considered improvement.

  • Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    The receiving corps last year had a TE who was a legit receiving threat. I'd take last year's receiving corps over this year's in a heartbeat, BE's drops and all. Our starting QB last year took that cockpit to the worst passer rating in the NFL. You seem to be making the point that the starting QB this year would struggle, especially facing 2 top caliber playoff quality defenses in the first three weeks.

    You then go on to say "we" can get better, but I guess the "we" is everyone but your favorite foil: Quinn.

    What's your point? Your post seems to be summed up by: "We should give Quinn some leash since the talent around him is the same as last year and we can get better".

    Hrm. I'm confused now.

  • And we really can't overlook or overstate the importance of a TE and a running game (not to mention an actual defense) to a young QB.

    Flacco and Ryan get mentioned a lot, as if they are the norm for young QBs. The reality is that they were in PERFECT situations for a young QB: veteran O-lines, veteran RBs, veteran WRs, veteran TE (in BAL, at least). Not to mention their D's. They just had to help out and learn as they went. They weren't asked to win games, or even really contribute substantively immediately. They got to play and learn and grow and they did so.

    Now notice the young QBs who DIDN'T/DON'T have those luxuries and who are, not coincidentally, struggling. Russell, Edwards, Henne all from the same QB class and all struggled yesterday.

    Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

    You can say that's a bad thing but you'd be wrong. Quinn ALWAYS used his TE's to great success at ND and he helped two get drafted (Fasano and Carlson, who are still playing in the League, by the way).

    What does it all mean? It means we are a train wreck on offense and expecting any rookie starting QB to do anything but survive in these conditions is silly.

    And if I realize that, why doesn't Mangini?

  • Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

    Winslow caught more balls thrown by DA than any other receiver. Wasn't just Quinn, Winslow was a playmaker. We're down to just one now. That's significant.

  • G Greythan
    Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

    Winslow caught more balls thrown by DA than any other receiver. Wasn't just Quinn, Winslow was a playmaker. We're down to just one now. That's significant.

    @greythan said:

    Winslow caught more balls thrown by DA than any other receiver. Wasn't just Quinn, Winslow was a playmaker. We're down to just one now. That's significant.

    Are we still talking about DA? Really? Can we move on now....

  • Thanks for the post! I've been bewildered as well. I feel like a Detroit fan, who saw his team look great in the preseason, then watched them fall apart once the season started.

    What happened to the offense? Both QB's and units seemed to move the ball in the preseason, but now we hardly get first downs? I'm no QB fan-boy, but both of these guys look like different guys, and I mean a change for the worse. I'd like to know who the flip got in their heads?!!

  • S Sez.EJ

    Mangini put himself in a terrible position by benching Quinn... Not so much for benching quinn..it's when DA came on an laid a giant turd in the middle of the field that actually made Quinn look good again.. So where as a coach do you go from there? Even my wife said pulling Quinn is stupid and she watched the first football game of her life just 5 years ago. I think Mangini HAS to go back to quinn this week. The team sucks as a whole and who is QB is not going to change the outcome of our games a whole lot.. That being said..Quinn needs time on the field. Otherwise he's just a wasted pick who never fully got a chance. That's just dumb.

    I thought the move indicated that Mangini is already getting pressure from above.

    That being said, I've claimed before that IF Mangini dumps Quinn, and DA comes in and sucks, it's going to be a few more nails in the coffin.

    @sez.ej said:

    Mangini put himself in a terrible position by benching Quinn... Not so much for benching quinn..it's when DA came on an laid a giant turd in the middle of the field that actually made Quinn look good again.. So where as a coach do you go from there? Even my wife said pulling Quinn is stupid and she watched the first football game of her life just 5 years ago. I think Mangini HAS to go back to quinn this week. The team sucks as a whole and who is QB is not going to change the outcome of our games a whole lot.. That being said..Quinn needs time on the field. Otherwise he's just a wasted pick who never fully got a chance. That's just dumb.

  • Sorry, but wrong. There was no pressure from above. The pressure came from the lockerroom, mostly from BE I figure. BE is a big part of the problem as he can't run the right routes near enough. The BQ pick was partially on BE(again). Mangini gave BE and his clique what they wanted, either fair or unfair, they got made examples of themselves. Just like the contract crying Cribbs is at WR. Rebuilding is not fun.

    Getting rid of all 3 are of need now. If anything, Mangini has been to nice.

  • A Alo

    When Mangini first got the job, he tried to bring in his OL coach from New York, Bill Callahan, to serve as a mentor and sounding board to Daboll. As a former head coach and offensive coordinator, Callahan would have been ideally suited for that role, as well as taking charge of the crucial task of fixing our o-line.

    Unfortunately, Callahan stayed in New York; it's not clear whether the Jets wouldn't release him from his contract or he just decided he didn't want to come here. And Mangini's second option, Tom Cable, got the "interim" stripped from his job title in Oakland.

    So Mangini ended up going with George Warhop, a guy who was fired by Bill Parcells, demoted by Mike Nolan, and shown the door by Mike Singletary.

    I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.

    Because Warhop lacks NFL playcalling experience, it may be difficult for him to properly counsel Daboll. Also, his track record of developing o-linemen isn't very good.

    With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.

    @alo said:

    With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.

    That's why Lerner needs to pay this guy what it takes to pry him away from the 'fins. Look at his history with coaching up guys that were not high picks (see San Diego):

    Hudson Houck, one of the most respected offensive line coaches in the NFL, is entering his third season as a member of the Dolphins’ staff. A veteran of 24 years as an NFL assistant, Houck came to the Dolphins after spending the previous three years in the same capacity with San Diego.

    In 2005, Houck transformed an offensive line that ranked fourth in the NFL in sacks allowed with 26, the lowest total by the Dolphins over the last three years, and half the total that they permitted in 2004. Houck’s unit also played an integral role in the success of the Dolphins’ running game, which averaged 4.3-yards per rush attempt. Last season, the running game averaged 4.2 yards per attempt, the first time a Dolphins team averaged 4.0 or better in consecutive seasons since the 1986-87 campaigns. Second-year running back Ronnie Brown put together his first 1,000-yard rushing season as a pro with 1,008 yards.

    With the Chargers in 2004, Houck helped to revitalize an offensive line which featured five new starters from the previous year. The Chargers ranked tenth in the NFL in total offense, including a No. 6 finish on the ground, as they averaged 136.6 yards rushing per contest. LaDainian Tomlinson ran for more than 1,300 yards in each of Houck’s three years there, including more than 1,600 in his first two. The Chargers’ line permitted just 21 sacks in 2004, the fourth-lowest total in the NFL and the eighth-fewest in that franchise’s 45-year history. Overall in Houck’s three seasons with the Chargers, the offensive line allowed an average of only 24.6 sacks per season. Their total of 74 sacks over this three-year period was the fourth-lowest in the NFL over this stretch.

    Houck joined the Chargers following a nine-year stint as offensive line coach with the Dallas Cowboys (1993-2001). This included four years (1994-97) when he also held the title of assistant head coach. Over this nine-year period, the Cowboys permitted a total of only 203 sacks, the lowest figure in the NFL. They yielded less than 20 sacks three times and less than 30 on six occasions. During Houck’s tenure in Dallas, six different offensive linemen made a total of 22 trips to the Pro Bowl. This group included Larry Allen (7), Nate Newton (5), Erik Williams (4), Ray Donaldson (2), Mark Stepnoski (2) and Mark Tuinei (2). The unit helped Emmitt Smith to a pair of NFL rushing titles over this nine-year stretch as he ran for more than 1,000 yards each time.

    Prior to his stint with the Cowboys, Houck spent one year (1992) tutoring the offensive line with the Seattle Seahawks, when Chris Warren rushed for 1,017 yards, the first time in his career that he reached the 1,000-yard mark. This came on the heels of another successful nine-year run, with the Los Angeles Rams from 1983-91. Over his nine-year stint with the Rams, there were seven different individual 1,000-yard rushing seasons and four individual league rushing titles, including an NFL-record 2,105 yards by Eric Dickerson in 1984. Over this stretch, five different Rams offensive linemen were voted to a combined 21 Pro Bowls, including Jackie Slater (7), Doug Smith (6), Kent Hill (3), Dennis Harrah (3) and Tom Newberry (2). In the final three years of Houck’s tenure with the Rams, quarterback Jim Everett passed for more yards than any other signal caller over this span and he also did not miss a start from 1988-91.

    Overall in his 24 years as an NFL assistant, Houck’s lines have paved the way for twenty individual 1,000-yard rushing seasons. The running backs who benefitted from the blocking, which have compiled six NFL rushing titles, consist of Emmitt Smith (Dallas, 9), Eric Dickerson (Rams, 4), LaDainian Tomlinson (San Diego, 3), Greg Bell (Rams, 2), Ronnie Brown (Miami, 1), Chris Warren (Seattle, 1) and Charles White (Rams, 1).

  • Here's a little snipet I took from Peter King's MMQ article on si.com:

    "It takes every receiver who comes into this offense a few years to not just be a receiver running routes, but to be a useful target,'' Clark told me. "It took me four years. It's hard to narrow down why, but a good answer is experience. It's my seventh season now, and it's seeing a lot of plays with [Peyton], in the same film room with him, then getting out on the field and feeling it. Same thing with Reggie. I'm sure he didn't have the chemistry in year three he does now."

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...l#ixzz0SQ5wzCRl

    Just thought it was interesting that on a successful team, a guy can get years to get better and work up a chemistry. We bench a guy after 2 1/2 games, hoping for a "spark". I've said it before, if the QB's problem is the speed of the game, its not going to slow down for him when he's on the bench. Even meaningless playing time in a blowout loss is meaningful to the growth of your young players.

  • I have no problem with a spark off the bench, but what is going on now is fooking terrible.

    You sink or swim with Quinn the rest of the year, that's all you can do. you gotta find out if he can get better, although with Dey Balls I'm not sure that is possible.

    Is a pig's ass pork?

  • Mangini knows full well what benching a young QB at halftime of game 3 means.

    He didn't care. That seems to speak volumes. He flat out doesn't think Quinn is worthy of investment. It also means, by reference, that he thinks the guy who couldn't beat him out in preseason is equally unworthy of investment. I guess the other possibility is the "bench-McNabb-to-wake-him-up" theory but that seems like a stretch. We'll know soon enough.

    Let's hope Mangini is right. If he isn't, we're in HUGE trouble as we'll be hiring a new regime in 2 years...... again.

    V 1 Reply
  • G Greythan

    Good thread.

    Running game. You know what? Its looked to me like we've been running the ball pretty well. We had some early success against both the Vikings and the Ravens. Both are teams known to defend the rush very, very well. I don't have stats to back this up, but the "feeling" was more positive. We've managed to be in 3rd and "managable" a lot this year.

    Passing game. Horrid. Just horrid. Maybe the speed of the NFL game is simply too much for Quinn. I don't think there's any other fault that you could pin on Quinn for his results thus far. Stated another way, its not because he doesn't have the arm, mobility, pedigree, work ethic, etc. If it is indeed Quinn, then it must just be the speed of the game. The other variables (namely receivers) are playing a role here, but who knows the ratio. I guess we'll find out how much of it was Quinn vs the other variables when Mangini names DA as the starter.

    Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.

    @greythan said:

    Good thread.

    Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.

    Those TD runs it looked like a High School defense out there, a guy in wheelchair could have made it into the end zone.

    Agreed on Wright and McDonald- but they can't cover guys all day when there's zero pressure on the QB (one sack on Flacco).

    Disconcerting to see the Browns with no fire and intensity- it's like they're just going through the motions.

  • I wouldn't be surprised that Quinn's miss of MMass in the Denver game didn't leave the players seething. That was a horrible miss on a non-descript day. The point that Quinn hadn't made any bad errors at that point, but wasn't seeing enough movement with the ball, could have been healed by one good throw.

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