There's no easy way out
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When Mangini first got the job, he tried to bring in his OL coach from New York, Bill Callahan, to serve as a mentor and sounding board to Daboll. As a former head coach and offensive coordinator, Callahan would have been ideally suited for that role, as well as taking charge of the crucial task of fixing our o-line.
Unfortunately, Callahan stayed in New York; it's not clear whether the Jets wouldn't release him from his contract or he just decided he didn't want to come here. And Mangini's second option, Tom Cable, got the "interim" stripped from his job title in Oakland.
So Mangini ended up going with George Warhop, a guy who was fired by Bill Parcells, demoted by Mike Nolan, and shown the door by Mike Singletary.
I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.
Because Warhop lacks NFL playcalling experience, it may be difficult for him to properly counsel Daboll. Also, his track record of developing o-linemen isn't very good.
With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.
With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.
That's why Lerner needs to pay this guy what it takes to pry him away from the 'fins. Look at his history with coaching up guys that were not high picks (see San Diego):
Hudson Houck, one of the most respected offensive line coaches in the NFL, is entering his third season as a member of the Dolphins’ staff. A veteran of 24 years as an NFL assistant, Houck came to the Dolphins after spending the previous three years in the same capacity with San Diego.
In 2005, Houck transformed an offensive line that ranked fourth in the NFL in sacks allowed with 26, the lowest total by the Dolphins over the last three years, and half the total that they permitted in 2004. Houck’s unit also played an integral role in the success of the Dolphins’ running game, which averaged 4.3-yards per rush attempt. Last season, the running game averaged 4.2 yards per attempt, the first time a Dolphins team averaged 4.0 or better in consecutive seasons since the 1986-87 campaigns. Second-year running back Ronnie Brown put together his first 1,000-yard rushing season as a pro with 1,008 yards.
With the Chargers in 2004, Houck helped to revitalize an offensive line which featured five new starters from the previous year. The Chargers ranked tenth in the NFL in total offense, including a No. 6 finish on the ground, as they averaged 136.6 yards rushing per contest. LaDainian Tomlinson ran for more than 1,300 yards in each of Houck’s three years there, including more than 1,600 in his first two. The Chargers’ line permitted just 21 sacks in 2004, the fourth-lowest total in the NFL and the eighth-fewest in that franchise’s 45-year history. Overall in Houck’s three seasons with the Chargers, the offensive line allowed an average of only 24.6 sacks per season. Their total of 74 sacks over this three-year period was the fourth-lowest in the NFL over this stretch.
Houck joined the Chargers following a nine-year stint as offensive line coach with the Dallas Cowboys (1993-2001). This included four years (1994-97) when he also held the title of assistant head coach. Over this nine-year period, the Cowboys permitted a total of only 203 sacks, the lowest figure in the NFL. They yielded less than 20 sacks three times and less than 30 on six occasions. During Houck’s tenure in Dallas, six different offensive linemen made a total of 22 trips to the Pro Bowl. This group included Larry Allen (7), Nate Newton (5), Erik Williams (4), Ray Donaldson (2), Mark Stepnoski (2) and Mark Tuinei (2). The unit helped Emmitt Smith to a pair of NFL rushing titles over this nine-year stretch as he ran for more than 1,000 yards each time.
Prior to his stint with the Cowboys, Houck spent one year (1992) tutoring the offensive line with the Seattle Seahawks, when Chris Warren rushed for 1,017 yards, the first time in his career that he reached the 1,000-yard mark. This came on the heels of another successful nine-year run, with the Los Angeles Rams from 1983-91. Over his nine-year stint with the Rams, there were seven different individual 1,000-yard rushing seasons and four individual league rushing titles, including an NFL-record 2,105 yards by Eric Dickerson in 1984. Over this stretch, five different Rams offensive linemen were voted to a combined 21 Pro Bowls, including Jackie Slater (7), Doug Smith (6), Kent Hill (3), Dennis Harrah (3) and Tom Newberry (2). In the final three years of Houck’s tenure with the Rams, quarterback Jim Everett passed for more yards than any other signal caller over this span and he also did not miss a start from 1988-91.
Overall in his 24 years as an NFL assistant, Houck’s lines have paved the way for twenty individual 1,000-yard rushing seasons. The running backs who benefitted from the blocking, which have compiled six NFL rushing titles, consist of Emmitt Smith (Dallas, 9), Eric Dickerson (Rams, 4), LaDainian Tomlinson (San Diego, 3), Greg Bell (Rams, 2), Ronnie Brown (Miami, 1), Chris Warren (Seattle, 1) and Charles White (Rams, 1).
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Here's a little snipet I took from Peter King's MMQ article on si.com:
"It takes every receiver who comes into this offense a few years to not just be a receiver running routes, but to be a useful target,'' Clark told me. "It took me four years. It's hard to narrow down why, but a good answer is experience. It's my seventh season now, and it's seeing a lot of plays with [Peyton], in the same film room with him, then getting out on the field and feeling it. Same thing with Reggie. I'm sure he didn't have the chemistry in year three he does now."
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...l#ixzz0SQ5wzCRl
Just thought it was interesting that on a successful team, a guy can get years to get better and work up a chemistry. We bench a guy after 2 1/2 games, hoping for a "spark". I've said it before, if the QB's problem is the speed of the game, its not going to slow down for him when he's on the bench. Even meaningless playing time in a blowout loss is meaningful to the growth of your young players.
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I have no problem with a spark off the bench, but what is going on now is fooking terrible.
You sink or swim with Quinn the rest of the year, that's all you can do. you gotta find out if he can get better, although with Dey Balls I'm not sure that is possible.
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Mangini knows full well what benching a young QB at halftime of game 3 means.
He didn't care. That seems to speak volumes. He flat out doesn't think Quinn is worthy of investment. It also means, by reference, that he thinks the guy who couldn't beat him out in preseason is equally unworthy of investment. I guess the other possibility is the "bench-McNabb-to-wake-him-up" theory but that seems like a stretch. We'll know soon enough.
Let's hope Mangini is right. If he isn't, we're in HUGE trouble as we'll be hiring a new regime in 2 years...... again.
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Good thread.
Running game. You know what? Its looked to me like we've been running the ball pretty well. We had some early success against both the Vikings and the Ravens. Both are teams known to defend the rush very, very well. I don't have stats to back this up, but the "feeling" was more positive. We've managed to be in 3rd and "managable" a lot this year.
Passing game. Horrid. Just horrid. Maybe the speed of the NFL game is simply too much for Quinn. I don't think there's any other fault that you could pin on Quinn for his results thus far. Stated another way, its not because he doesn't have the arm, mobility, pedigree, work ethic, etc. If it is indeed Quinn, then it must just be the speed of the game. The other variables (namely receivers) are playing a role here, but who knows the ratio. I guess we'll find out how much of it was Quinn vs the other variables when Mangini names DA as the starter.
Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.
Good thread.
Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.
Those TD runs it looked like a High School defense out there, a guy in wheelchair could have made it into the end zone.
Agreed on Wright and McDonald- but they can't cover guys all day when there's zero pressure on the QB (one sack on Flacco).
Disconcerting to see the Browns with no fire and intensity- it's like they're just going through the motions.
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I wouldn't be surprised that Quinn's miss of MMass in the Denver game didn't leave the players seething. That was a horrible miss on a non-descript day. The point that Quinn hadn't made any bad errors at that point, but wasn't seeing enough movement with the ball, could have been healed by one good throw.
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The Browns players play the game like they have a turd that's about to fall out of their ass, so they spend the whole game squeezing their butt cheeks together, worrying about their own asses than playing as a team.
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Mangini knows full well what benching a young QB at halftime of game 3 means.
He didn't care. That seems to speak volumes. He flat out doesn't think Quinn is worthy of investment. It also means, by reference, that he thinks the guy who couldn't beat him out in preseason is equally unworthy of investment. I guess the other possibility is the "bench-McNabb-to-wake-him-up" theory but that seems like a stretch. We'll know soon enough.
Let's hope Mangini is right. If he isn't, we're in HUGE trouble as we'll be hiring a new regime in 2 years...... again.
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I don't think it is the play calling, look at the difference between what Anderson attempted to do and what Quinn attempted to do. They are both working from the same playbook, Quinn simply fears throwing the ball downfield unless a receiver is wide open, DA is willing to trust his arm and throw into double coverage. Somewhere in the middle is what we need. Anderson made some nice throws and those same plays have been there all season for Quinn. Anderson also had three interceptions which prevent you from winning.
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When Mangini first got the job, he tried to bring in his OL coach from New York, Bill Callahan, to serve as a mentor and sounding board to Daboll. As a former head coach and offensive coordinator, Callahan would have been ideally suited for that role, as well as taking charge of the crucial task of fixing our o-line.
Unfortunately, Callahan stayed in New York; it's not clear whether the Jets wouldn't release him from his contract or he just decided he didn't want to come here. And Mangini's second option, Tom Cable, got the "interim" stripped from his job title in Oakland.
So Mangini ended up going with George Warhop, a guy who was fired by Bill Parcells, demoted by Mike Nolan, and shown the door by Mike Singletary.
I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.
Because Warhop lacks NFL playcalling experience, it may be difficult for him to properly counsel Daboll. Also, his track record of developing o-linemen isn't very good.
With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.
Great points Alo, glad to see you back.
But it's not just the o-line that needs fixing. Some of the Ratbird TD runs were some of the most inept defensive football I've ever seen. Barton think he's an offensive lineman trying to stand up a blocker instead of actually trying to make a tackle? Other than Rodgers, IMHO our entire front 7 blows, and they all need to be farmed out. Great points Alo, glad to see you back.
But it's not just the o-line that needs fixing. Some of the Ratbird TD runs were some of the most inept defensive football I've ever seen. Barton think he's an offensive lineman trying to stand up a blocker instead of actually trying to make a tackle? Other than Rodgers, IMHO our entire front 7 blows, and they all need to be farmed out.Our d-line is good...our fkn Linebackers suck and have since late 80's...when will you freaks realize that Dqwell and Barton both SUCK! ...Wimbley is only LB I'd keep right now! All you Dqwell lovers are DEAD wrong and have been! It is so freaking obvious and has been to me since 99'. We need a INSIDE LINEBACKERS!
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@danamal said:
We need lots of things but you dont handcuff what you have in a rebuilding year,you let them play their game and let the cream rise and build on it.Right now you cant have an honest assesment of anyone under this current system of play.
Let's not talk about cream right now.
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I don't think it is the play calling, look at the difference between what Anderson attempted to do and what Quinn attempted to do. They are both working from the same playbook, Quinn simply fears throwing the ball downfield unless a receiver is wide open, DA is willing to trust his arm and throw into double coverage. Somewhere in the middle is what we need. Anderson made some nice throws and those same plays have been there all season for Quinn. Anderson also had three interceptions which prevent you from winning.
I don't think it is the play calling, look at the difference between what Anderson attempted to do and what Quinn attempted to do. They are both working from the same playbook, Quinn simply fears throwing the ball downfield unless a receiver is wide open, DA is willing to trust his arm and throw into double coverage. Somewhere in the middle is what we need. Anderson made some nice throws and those same plays have been there all season for Quinn. Anderson also had three interceptions which prevent you from winning.
Is it fear or smarts for not throwing into triple coverage? So far, with shit playcalling, the results are the same, with the "fear" yielding the more delayed one.
Our WRs inability to get separation is troubling.
Our inability to pass block to allow those WRs a possibility of just a double move is seriously limiting the passing game, regardless of who's under center.
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Last year, the Quinn led offense scored 30 points (or close) the 1st 2 games he played, with virtually NO prior experience.....He didn't do that throwing all "dinks"...IMHO, this is SQUARELY on the shoulders of our offensive coaching. I'm sorry, but Day-blah ain't gettin' it done & Mangini needs to admit that all his buddies aren't getting the job done. The pulling of Brady as it was done yesterday may have done irreparable damage. At this point, it is going to be very difficult to rebuild his confidence.
My question to Mangini AND Day-blah would be..."WHY is Quinn throwing all dinks? He didn't LAST year!"
Color me PO'd. Baltimore is tough, but we stunk yesterday & NOT just at QB....I saw no "fire"..we need to throw some oxygen on the embers...IF there are embers left. I supported Mangini to this point, but it seems to me I am seeing less effort each week. Not good.
Mike
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Great points Alo, glad to see you back.
But it's not just the o-line that needs fixing. Some of the Ratbird TD runs were some of the most inept defensive football I've ever seen. Barton think he's an offensive lineman trying to stand up a blocker instead of actually trying to make a tackle? Other than Rodgers, IMHO our entire front 7 blows, and they all need to be farmed out.Our d-line is good...our fkn Linebackers suck and have since late 80's...when will you freaks realize that Dqwell and Barton both SUCK! ...Wimbley is only LB I'd keep right now! All you Dqwell lovers are DEAD wrong and have been! It is so freaking obvious and has been to me since 99'. We need a INSIDE LINEBACKERS!
Our d-line is good...our fkn Linebackers suck and have since late 80's...when will you freaks realize that Dqwell and Barton both SUCK! ...Wimbley is only LB I'd keep right now! All you Dqwell lovers are DEAD wrong and have been! It is so freaking obvious and has been to me since 99'. We need a INSIDE LINEBACKERS!
I agree, the linebacking has totally sucked. Wimbley certainly hasn't lived up to his draft status, he should be a dominant OLB, ala Chip Banks or Clay Matthews. Frankly, he plays like a journeyman.
ILB? We haven't had a decent one since Eddie Johnson.
If Mangini's going to let the DA interception machine get on the field, hell- put in Alex Hall and let him make a few mistakes while were at it- at least the guy has some athletic ability.
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