Changes
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And Rogers has been a huge hit in the 3-4. Corey Williams is learning, but he was a guy people around the league have thought could play in either system.
I still go back and thinking coaching/scheme are the biggest problem on this D.
Masters said:
And Rogers has been a huge hit in the 3-4. Corey Williams is learning, but he was a guy people around the league have thought could play in either system.I still go back and thinking coaching/scheme are the biggest problem on this D.
That's true and most of the argument for either 4-3, 3-4 is based on the "Base" version of either defense. And the good defenses don't run basic stuff anyway. Some teams throw so many wrinkles at an offense no one knows where the hell their rushing in from. We sure don't do much variety in that regard. As you said "Coaching and Schemes."
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Masters said:
And Rogers has been a huge hit in the 3-4. Corey Williams is learning, but he was a guy people around the league have thought could play in either system.I still go back and thinking coaching/scheme are the biggest problem on this D.
That's true and most of the argument for either 4-3, 3-4 is based on the "Base" version of either defense. And the good defenses don't run basic stuff anyway. Some teams throw so many wrinkles at an offense no one knows where the hell their rushing in from. We sure don't do much variety in that regard. As you said "Coaching and Schemes."
88fingerslewy said:
That's true and most of the argument for either 4-3, 3-4 is based on the "Base" version of either defense. And the good defenses don't run basic stuff anyway. Some teams throw so many wrinkles at an offense no one knows where the hell their rushing in from. We sure don't do much variety in that regard. As you said "Coaching and Schemes."exactly where I was going with it. CLE is far too predictable on D. If I can spot where the blitz (on those few occassions they do) is coming from before the snap, I am sure most NFL QBs can.
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@ rich: the '86 giants ran a 3-4. it's why lawrence taylor was an OLB and not a DE. also, the '85 bears ran a 4-6, a massively aggressive version of the 4-3. the 49ers won with offense and solid yet somewhat unspectacular defense. i'd say the division of great Ds is pretty even between four-man lines and three-man ones.
@ masters & 88fingers: the problem is definitely the scheme and aggression. we're too passive and our blitzes are way, way, way too obvious. with the Qb seeing them, the line can see them, too, and easily pick them up. tucker's a good DB coach and could someday be a good DC, but for right now, he's just not creative enough and rac's not taking charge the way he should.
the teams that run good 3-4s are baltimore and pittsburgh. san diego did for a while, but that fell apart when wade phillips left for dallas. new england's version is too passive; i'm not a fan of it at all, and that is, unfortunately, the version of the 3-4 that romeo runs.
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Here's something: Shaun Smith sucks. He is too fat and out of shape to play DE in a 3/4, period.
I agree with WPB on this. Robaire was a big blow, but this defense has not played well when Smith has played and I think it's more than a coincidence.
Smith = all talk and no action = sucking wind and standing still wrestling with a tackle.
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It doesn't matter what the scheme is, if execution isn't there, nothing is going to work.
The Browns do not have the right personnel to run the 4-3.
I remember 5 years ago everyone was crying for a 3-4 because the 4-3 wasn't working. Stick with the 3-4 and get players that can play it and a coach who can motivate.
I have seen a lot of 4-3 projections out there that are flat out wrong anyway. For one, Corey Williams would be a DT in a 4-3, not a DE. Second, the Browns linebackers would be terrible in a 4-3. Who would start? Jackson, Davis and Williams would all project to be inside guys in a 4-3.
What this team needs is to execute the way a 3-4 is supposed to. There is too much confusion between players on the field and that goes back to coaching. Does anyone really think the 3-4 would look this bad if Cowher or Marty were coaching? I doubt it. In fact, I am willing to bet you would see completely different personnel on the field instead of guys like Willie Mac and Andra Davis.
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All the 3-4 and 4-3 haters should take note that both of these D's have upside and downside and both can be very effective.............
I agree Rich.....it is the players playing it and the coaches coaching it.
All in all, I prefer a 3-4. It gives you a faster team with more options...we just don't utilize any options.
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3-4 is phenominal if aggressively designed....Must have great linebackers to play it. we don't have anything close to great linebackers. Andra davis is a 4-3 linebacker and useless in a 3-4. Dqwell looking like a huge bust. Wimbley better start to show up in these last games or I will think he is a huge bust as well.
Rey in 09"
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Wimbly is a wimp....the weak link to a weak unit.
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wimbley's a speed rusher. he can't hold the point of attack in the run game and is constantly out of position. good coaching can fix one of those problems. we can fix the other with steroids. i think that moving him around will help, though.
andra davis is far better suited to the 4-3. solon's right. he had his good years in the 4-3 and has been nothing but horrible in the 3-4. he's just better as a second line of defense than a playmaker.
as far as d'qwell goes, you don't lead the NFL in tackles by sucking. if you suck, then you're fourth on your own team in tackles and have two sacks.
@ ballpeen: i agree that the 4-3 can be effective. look at what the giants have done with it. that being said, i vastly prefer the 3-4, likely because of the steelers and madden. it's the D that i've run for years. i like its variation and unpredictability.
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Before we go crazy....let's take an honest look at things.
Injuries:
1. Robaire Smith on the IR: He is KNOWN as a run stopper. His loss was bigger than most would admit.
2. Antoine Peek: I know he is always injured, but we were relying heavily on him and he went down 3 days before the season
3. Sean Jones: His knee injury was devastating to BOTH the run and pass defense. He is obviously not up to speed even now...and no telling if he will ever get there.
4. Corey Williams: He continues to play, but with a bad wing (shoulder) it is hard to control the line...especially when learning a new position
5. Wimbley: He had an inner thigh injury that was bothering him for the first half of the year...but he has come on since the Washington game. He has even gotten to the QB a few times and seems to be playing better in space since then as well.
6. Shaun Smith: Broken hand missed three games.
When you combine the injuries on the DL (Smith/Smith/Rogers/Williams), the ENTIRE DL STARTING ROTATION has been dinged nearly the entire season. With the rotation relying on 2 players new to the system, a third on the IR, and the fourth playing out of position....what do you really expect.
And as we know, DL play affects the LB play. With the shear size of our DL it also puts pressure on our OLB's to maintain proper lanes instead of going full out on pass rushing. Williams and S.Smith do NOT have the quickness to hold the edge in the 3-4...so our OLB's are being used more as like they would in a 5-2 than a true 3-4. They are run first, pass rush second. THAT is the main reason Wimbley is not getting sacks. He is forced to control the edge first...then read and rush. Also, the lack of a true pass rushing OLB on the opposite side (sure, Hall has had moments...but no sacks since week 6 and only 3 tackles since week 7. The loss of Peek hurt us bad. Maybe Orr can step it up this week.
On the ILB's, I agree Davis is done. He just doesn't have it anymore. DQ on the other hand seems to fit nicely...but he needs a thumper next to him and Davis isn't giving us that...maybe Bell will....or maybe we just need to get another guy in here for that.
Personally, I like the 3-4...but we NEED to get a smaller, faster guy at one of the DE positions (R.Smith is getting old at 31). I like the size of Pittman and Thomas for that spot. Williams, once he gets healthy...may be the guy for the L side.
At OLB, we need to get Hall up to speed for next year, and feel out Orr to see if he can add something. Peek is just to injury prone. I am not ready to write Wimbley off yet...I still think playing next to a slow-DT at DE in S.Smith is part of his problem.
At ILB, we need to see if Bell can bring it. If he can...great, if not, get into the Rey Maualuga sweepstakes.
S...believe it or not I would like this as a top pick. I like a guy who can play like Polly-needs-a-haircut. If we don't have a big gunner at ILB, he can bring the wood on blitzes and run D. Someone like William Moore from Missouri (6'1" 230) or Taylor Mays from USC (6'3" 230). I prefer Moore as he is a popper!!!
Anyway...I really believe we have the BASE for a nice 3-4...but we NEED that one guy who is a difference maker. And that needs to be down the middle, either ILB or S!!! The DE's and OLB's will benefit from that.
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Before we go crazy....let's take an honest look at things.
Injuries:
1. Robaire Smith on the IR: He is KNOWN as a run stopper. His loss was bigger than most would admit.
2. Antoine Peek: I know he is always injured, but we were relying heavily on him and he went down 3 days before the season
3. Sean Jones: His knee injury was devastating to BOTH the run and pass defense. He is obviously not up to speed even now...and no telling if he will ever get there.
4. Corey Williams: He continues to play, but with a bad wing (shoulder) it is hard to control the line...especially when learning a new position
5. Wimbley: He had an inner thigh injury that was bothering him for the first half of the year...but he has come on since the Washington game. He has even gotten to the QB a few times and seems to be playing better in space since then as well.
6. Shaun Smith: Broken hand missed three games.
When you combine the injuries on the DL (Smith/Smith/Rogers/Williams), the ENTIRE DL STARTING ROTATION has been dinged nearly the entire season. With the rotation relying on 2 players new to the system, a third on the IR, and the fourth playing out of position....what do you really expect.
And as we know, DL play affects the LB play. With the shear size of our DL it also puts pressure on our OLB's to maintain proper lanes instead of going full out on pass rushing. Williams and S.Smith do NOT have the quickness to hold the edge in the 3-4...so our OLB's are being used more as like they would in a 5-2 than a true 3-4. They are run first, pass rush second. THAT is the main reason Wimbley is not getting sacks. He is forced to control the edge first...then read and rush. Also, the lack of a true pass rushing OLB on the opposite side (sure, Hall has had moments...but no sacks since week 6 and only 3 tackles since week 7. The loss of Peek hurt us bad. Maybe Orr can step it up this week.
On the ILB's, I agree Davis is done. He just doesn't have it anymore. DQ on the other hand seems to fit nicely...but he needs a thumper next to him and Davis isn't giving us that...maybe Bell will....or maybe we just need to get another guy in here for that.
Personally, I like the 3-4...but we NEED to get a smaller, faster guy at one of the DE positions (R.Smith is getting old at 31). I like the size of Pittman and Thomas for that spot. Williams, once he gets healthy...may be the guy for the L side.
At OLB, we need to get Hall up to speed for next year, and feel out Orr to see if he can add something. Peek is just to injury prone. I am not ready to write Wimbley off yet...I still think playing next to a slow-DT at DE in S.Smith is part of his problem.
At ILB, we need to see if Bell can bring it. If he can...great, if not, get into the Rey Maualuga sweepstakes.
S...believe it or not I would like this as a top pick. I like a guy who can play like Polly-needs-a-haircut. If we don't have a big gunner at ILB, he can bring the wood on blitzes and run D. Someone like William Moore from Missouri (6'1" 230) or Taylor Mays from USC (6'3" 230). I prefer Moore as he is a popper!!!
Anyway...I really believe we have the BASE for a nice 3-4...but we NEED that one guy who is a difference maker. And that needs to be down the middle, either ILB or S!!! The DE's and OLB's will benefit from that.
Before we go crazy....let's take an honest look at things.
Injuries:
1. Robaire Smith on the IR: He is KNOWN as a run stopper. His loss was bigger than most would admit.
2. Antoine Peek: I know he is always injured, but we were relying heavily on him and he went down 3 days before the season
3. Sean Jones: His knee injury was devastating to BOTH the run and pass defense. He is obviously not up to speed even now...and no telling if he will ever get there.
4. Corey Williams: He continues to play, but with a bad wing (shoulder) it is hard to control the line...especially when learning a new position
5. Wimbley: He had an inner thigh injury that was bothering him for the first half of the year...but he has come on since the Washington game. He has even gotten to the QB a few times and seems to be playing better in space since then as well.
6. Shaun Smith: Broken hand missed three games.
When you combine the injuries on the DL (Smith/Smith/Rogers/Williams), the ENTIRE DL STARTING ROTATION has been dinged nearly the entire season. With the rotation relying on 2 players new to the system, a third on the IR, and the fourth playing out of position....what do you really expect.
And as we know, DL play affects the LB play. With the shear size of our DL it also puts pressure on our OLB's to maintain proper lanes instead of going full out on pass rushing. Williams and S.Smith do NOT have the quickness to hold the edge in the 3-4...so our OLB's are being used more as like they would in a 5-2 than a true 3-4. They are run first, pass rush second. THAT is the main reason Wimbley is not getting sacks. He is forced to control the edge first...then read and rush. Also, the lack of a true pass rushing OLB on the opposite side (sure, Hall has had moments...but no sacks since week 6 and only 3 tackles since week 7. The loss of Peek hurt us bad. Maybe Orr can step it up this week.
On the ILB's, I agree Davis is done. He just doesn't have it anymore. DQ on the other hand seems to fit nicely...but he needs a thumper next to him and Davis isn't giving us that...maybe Bell will....or maybe we just need to get another guy in here for that.
Personally, I like the 3-4...but we NEED to get a smaller, faster guy at one of the DE positions (R.Smith is getting old at 31). I like the size of Pittman and Thomas for that spot. Williams, once he gets healthy...may be the guy for the L side.
At OLB, we need to get Hall up to speed for next year, and feel out Orr to see if he can add something. Peek is just to injury prone. I am not ready to write Wimbley off yet...I still think playing next to a slow-DT at DE in S.Smith is part of his problem.
At ILB, we need to see if Bell can bring it. If he can...great, if not, get into the Rey Maualuga sweepstakes.
S...believe it or not I would like this as a top pick. I like a guy who can play like Polly-needs-a-haircut. If we don't have a big gunner at ILB, he can bring the wood on blitzes and run D. Someone like William Moore from Missouri (6'1" 230) or Taylor Mays from USC (6'3" 230). I prefer Moore as he is a popper!!!
Anyway...I really believe we have the BASE for a nice 3-4...but we NEED that one guy who is a difference maker. And that needs to be down the middle, either ILB or S!!! The DE's and OLB's will benefit from that.
Great analysis....I agree with you on Safety but a Stud ILB is what has been missing on a Browns defense since Mike Johnson. And he was just above decent.
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Wimbly is a wimp....the weak link to a weak unit.
I don't know about all that...I have been a proponent of using him all over the field like we did Jamir miller. I would never line him up in one position like the Browns have most of the time.
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Here is what I like about Moore:
William Moore S 6’1 230 Missouri
By: Robert Davis
Moore had a solid freshman season, tallying 30 tackles and an interception in 2005. He was more active as a sophomore, finishing the year with 51 tackles, while picking off another pass. Moore had a breakout junior year though, where he had 117 tackles and eight interceptions on his way to All America honors.
Strengths
Moore is a physical safety that is a playmaker as a run and pass defender. He has excellent size in the secondary, and uses it to lay receivers out over the middle of the field. Moore is aggressive in attacking the action and delivers a blow when he meets the ball carrier. What separates Moore from most 230lb safeties is his cover ability. He is a good athlete that has tremendous ball skills. He easily locates the ball in the air and shows the ability to go up and make plays on the football.
Weaknesses
Moore does not have many shortcomings on the field, but he does lack tremendous closing speed. He is not in poor shape, but operating in the 220 range may give him an extra step and ease this concern but he can have problems recovering when a player beats him.
Future
Moore is a legitimate first round pick at the safety position. He has the skills, toughness, and instincts to be a perennial pro bowler in the NFL. This could be a very good safety class if a couple underclassmen declare, and where Moore goes exactly will depend on those decisions and workouts in the post season. Wherever he is selected, he will make his team happy and be a high impact defender.
Compared to Maualuga
Rey Maualuga LB 6'2 260 USC
By: Robert Davis
Maualuga had a very productive true freshman season for USC in 2005. As a reserve inside linebacker, he tallied 37 tackles, 4.5 for loss, a sack and an interception. He stepped into a starting role as a sophomore, earning All Pac 10 1st team honors while posting 78 tackles, five for loss, two sacks, and an interception on the year. Maualuga became a two time honoree on the Pac 10 1st team as a junior, posting a team leading 79 tackles, 10.5 for loss, six sacks and a pick.
Strengths
Maualuga is the type of player you fear as an offensive player. He is very strong, aggressive, and plays with a real mean streak on the field. If you are carrying the ball or are in his way of getting to the ball carrier, he will do whatever it takes to make the tackle. His size and demeanor on the field make him a force between the tackles. He isn’t afraid to take on a lineman and is strong enough to fight off the block and make the tackle.
What separates him from most middle linebackers is the speed and athleticism he displays on the field. Maualuga easily chases plays down from behind and can run sideline to sideline to make plays. His athleticism allows him to match up in coverage and make plays with the ball in the air. All of his experience is inside, but Maualuga has the ability to move outside and perform at a high level there if the situation calls for it.
Weaknesses
While his aggression is mostly a positive thing on the field, it can get Maualuga into trouble at times. He plays so hard and moves so fast that he can overrun plays at times, allowing the carrier to slip by and pick up big chunks of yardage. He is so intent on reading the action that he can’t wait to react, and jumps too early. He will need to be a more disciplined player to take his game to another level.
Future
Maualuga is a part of the most talented linebacking duo in some time in college, teaming with Brian Cushing. The two are as physically gifted as any pair and will cause opposing coaches nightmares this season. Maualuga can do everything you want an inside linebacker to do and more, along with having the versatility to move outside. His all around game is going to entice some team to take him in the first round of the draft in April, barring any unforseen incidents.
Either way, you get a headhunter!!!
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I don't know about all that...I have been a proponent of using him all over the field like we did Jamir miller. I would never line him up in one position like the Browns have most of the time.
Miller was a lot bigger from what I remember and a real linebacker.
Wimbly is a situational pass rusher no matter where you line him up.
As it stands, we have him, in theory, up against the slowest of the linemen...the RT.
If he goes to the other side the LT will eat him up and he simply isn't that strong to line up in the middle....he would be there to rush...it wouldn't be play MLB against the run...which is what teams would do if they saw him lined up there...check into a draw play or line plunge and let some massive guard maul him in some run block.
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WPB: where did you get those scouting reports? they're great. could you post the ones for mays and tyson jackson of LSU (or direct me tho where i can find them)? jackson's a second-round type guy that could be a 3-4 DE for many years to come. at 6-4 and 295, he's got the build for it as well as the athleticism.
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Peen...he lines up across from the LT now.
He is the Right Side OLB...which lines up across for the LT of the offense. Not only that, but he has consistently drawn a shift from the OL and had the RB chip on his side.
Head coach Romeo Crennel and defensive coordinator Mel Tucker are constantly put in the position of saying the statistics do not reflect how well Wimbley is playing.
Rookie Alex Hall has three sacks, but only 19 tackles. Willie McGinest has 32 tackles, no sacks and seven quarterback pressures. Crennel said starting Monday in Buffalo, Wimbley might be moved around so offenses will have more difficulty blocking him.
“Kamerion brings a lot to the table,” Tucker said. “He’s doing a lot for us and maybe the numbers haven’t shown that so far, but I do feel good about the direction he’s going.
“He’s done a good job against the run. He’s very consistent versus the pass. They’ve slid the line to him and they’ve done a good job of chipping with the back to his side. I think Kamerion is going to make his fair share of plays before the end of the day.”
Wimbley is more concerned about team success than his own. To that end, he plays in the team concept instead of running around trying to improve his own stats.
He is NOT a situational pass rusher either...as he does a pretty good job of dropping back into coverage.
Anyway, we start moving him around and he will get a shot at the RT...and I expect him getting a few more looks at the QB over the coming weeks.
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WPB: where did you get those scouting reports? they're great. could you post the ones for mays and tyson jackson of LSU (or direct me tho where i can find them)? jackson's a second-round type guy that could be a 3-4 DE for many years to come. at 6-4 and 295, he's got the build for it as well as the athleticism.
WPB: where did you get those scouting reports? they're great. could you post the ones for mays and tyson jackson of LSU (or direct me tho where i can find them)? jackson's a second-round type guy that could be a 3-4 DE for many years to come. at 6-4 and 295, he's got the build for it as well as the athleticism.
Here you go!
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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