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  3. I've isolated the main source of disagreement over the BE/KW trades.

I've isolated the main source of disagreement over the BE/KW trades.

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  • . .mz

    @choco said:

    "fleeced" can only be used when evaluating a draft class after 5 games.

    So you liked the trade down when it happened? The Veikune pick? The Robiskie pick?

    @.mz said:

    So you liked the trade down when it happened? The Veikune pick? The Robiskie pick?

    i loved the trade down......how much did we save paying mack over sanchez? 30 mil....40 mil? macks gonna be around a while, needless to say. hate to burst the bubble, but sanchez in NY is not the same sanchez in CLE......its hard to explain, but this team has no talent for him to throw to. the idea is not to get those last 2 pieces that will put us over the top.....the sanchez pick was quinnx2.

    i didn't know who veikune was, but a co-worker loved him and immediately said he has a motor. eval TBD....

    frankly, i didn't like the robo pick cause im a psu homer and hate osu. that doesn't mean i dont like his pedigree, smarts, and natural receiving ability.

    you, are pissed because we didn't make a splash with the big name players you drool over all season.....there is more to the game than stats, and you really need to realize that.

  • chocoC choco

    @.mz said:

    So you liked the trade down when it happened? The Veikune pick? The Robiskie pick?

    i loved the trade down......how much did we save paying mack over sanchez? 30 mil....40 mil? macks gonna be around a while, needless to say. hate to burst the bubble, but sanchez in NY is not the same sanchez in CLE......its hard to explain, but this team has no talent for him to throw to. the idea is not to get those last 2 pieces that will put us over the top.....the sanchez pick was quinnx2.

    i didn't know who veikune was, but a co-worker loved him and immediately said he has a motor. eval TBD....

    frankly, i didn't like the robo pick cause im a psu homer and hate osu. that doesn't mean i dont like his pedigree, smarts, and natural receiving ability.

    you, are pissed because we didn't make a splash with the big name players you drool over all season.....there is more to the game than stats, and you really need to realize that.

    @choco said:

    there is more to the game than stats, and you really need to realize that.

    Other than being a brilliant sports fan, you're clearly also psychic, as you seem to ALWAYS know what I, and everyone else, is thinking at all times.

    PS Character wins a lot of Super Bowls.

  • . .mz

    @choco said:

    there is more to the game than stats, and you really need to realize that.

    Other than being a brilliant sports fan, you're clearly also psychic, as you seem to ALWAYS know what I, and everyone else, is thinking at all times.

    PS Character wins a lot of Super Bowls.

    @.mz said:

    Other than being a brilliant sports fan, you're clearly also psychic, as you seem to ALWAYS know what I, and everyone else, is thinking at all times.

    PS Character wins a lot of Super Bowls.

    nice dodge.....but it fairly obvious what youre evaluating. you wanted the sexy pick.....its not like that a secret. we took an OL.....very boring, but very necessary. you're whining about skill players who underperformed and draft picks with 5 games under their belts that are mildly successful with already good teams......

    you obviously are looking at a very narrow view of the game.

  • chocoC choco

    @.mz said:

    Other than being a brilliant sports fan, you're clearly also psychic, as you seem to ALWAYS know what I, and everyone else, is thinking at all times.

    PS Character wins a lot of Super Bowls.

    nice dodge.....but it fairly obvious what youre evaluating. you wanted the sexy pick.....its not like that a secret. we took an OL.....very boring, but very necessary. you're whining about skill players who underperformed and draft picks with 5 games under their belts that are mildly successful with already good teams......

    you obviously are looking at a very narrow view of the game.

    @choco said:

    nice dodge.....but it fairly obvious what youre evaluating. you wanted the sexy pick.....its not like that a secret. we took an OL.....very boring, but very necessary. you're whining about skill players who underperformed and draft picks with 5 games under their belts that are mildly successful with already good teams......

    you obviously are looking at a very narrow view of the game.

    Not true.

    I loved the Joe Thomas pick. He plays O line. Not very sexy, eh?

    Your hypothesis just exploded.

    I just want good players, as I evaluate them. Obviously we have differences in opinion there.

    E chocoC 2 Replies
  • . .mz

    @choco said:

    nice dodge.....but it fairly obvious what youre evaluating. you wanted the sexy pick.....its not like that a secret. we took an OL.....very boring, but very necessary. you're whining about skill players who underperformed and draft picks with 5 games under their belts that are mildly successful with already good teams......

    you obviously are looking at a very narrow view of the game.

    Not true.

    I loved the Joe Thomas pick. He plays O line. Not very sexy, eh?

    Your hypothesis just exploded.

    I just want good players, as I evaluate them. Obviously we have differences in opinion there.

    @.mz said:

    Not true.

    I loved the Joe Thomas pick. He plays O line. Not very sexy, eh?

    Your hypothesis just exploded.

    I just want good players, as I evaluate them. Obviously we have differences in opinion there.

    mz the pussy....as "you" evaluate them. OK, that's what a fan wants. The problem is that the people who actually get paid to make these decisions have a lot more information at their disposal than you do. How many of us had ever seen Alex Mack play one game much less seen him up close and personal? There's only one guy in the NFL that makes picks based on press clippings and third hand information and his team plays in the Bay Area.

    Ever seen Michael Crabtree's background check? Yes, they do that too...on every single guy.

    They don't hit on every pick but tell me that you know anything about some of these mid-to-late rounders (had you ever heard of Coye Francies before draft day?) and I'll be impressed.

    When the Jets took Darelle Revis, Aaron Ross and Michael Griffin were going to be available to them. How did EM KNOW to trade up for THIS particular CB who's turned out to be a stud? It's just an example but I'd seen every game Ross and Griffin ever played in college and I couldn't tell you that he was better....but he is.

  • There are PLENTY of folks on this board who would have had vastly better drafts than Phil Savage, a so-called "professional." Just because a person works in football doesn't mean he's automatically smarter or better informed than anyone else. All it means is he has that job and we don't. 🙂

    Perhaps I just watch more football than you do. I dunno. I live on the WC and I had seen Alex Mack play numerous times. I saw Revis play every year he was in college as he played in the same conference as my team. IIRC, Revis was also to top rated CB that year by the "draft pundits."

    And of course we all evaluate things as we see them. It's human nature. You can't force me to disagree with my own opinion, as it doesn't work that way.

    E P 2 Replies
  • . .mz

    @choco said:

    nice dodge.....but it fairly obvious what youre evaluating. you wanted the sexy pick.....its not like that a secret. we took an OL.....very boring, but very necessary. you're whining about skill players who underperformed and draft picks with 5 games under their belts that are mildly successful with already good teams......

    you obviously are looking at a very narrow view of the game.

    Not true.

    I loved the Joe Thomas pick. He plays O line. Not very sexy, eh?

    Your hypothesis just exploded.

    I just want good players, as I evaluate them. Obviously we have differences in opinion there.

    @.mz said:

    I loved the Joe Thomas pick.

    but who did you really want?

  • chocoC choco

    @.mz said:

    I loved the Joe Thomas pick.

    but who did you really want?

    @choco said:

    but who did you really want?

    Joe Thomas. Swear on the Virtual Bible I Don't Believe In Anyway...

    chocoC C 2 Replies
  • . .mz

    There are PLENTY of folks on this board who would have had vastly better drafts than Phil Savage, a so-called "professional." Just because a person works in football doesn't mean he's automatically smarter or better informed than anyone else. All it means is he has that job and we don't. 🙂

    Perhaps I just watch more football than you do. I dunno. I live on the WC and I had seen Alex Mack play numerous times. I saw Revis play every year he was in college as he played in the same conference as my team. IIRC, Revis was also to top rated CB that year by the "draft pundits."

    And of course we all evaluate things as we see them. It's human nature. You can't force me to disagree with my own opinion, as it doesn't work that way.

    @.mz said:

    There are PLENTY of folks on this board who would have had vastly better drafts than Phil Savage, a so-called "professional." Just because a person works in football doesn't mean he's automatically smarter or better informed than anyone else. All it means is he has that job and we don't. 🙂

    That wasn't the point. He had a lot more information and data with which to make his decisions than you do. It just underscores how much of a moron Phil Savage was as GM of the Browns. Lucky for him Matt Millen was there to steal his spotlight.

  • . .mz

    It's due to the fact that you guys trust Mangini to build this team from the ground, and I guess, simply, I don't.

    Didn't particularly care for his draft. Or his choice of OC. Or his trades. Or his demeanor. Or his early benching of a QB.

    So what's left?

    Nothing, probably.

    I guess if I agreed with many (or any) of his moves, I'd have faith in some rebuilding effort, like you guys (choco, Earl34, etc.). But I just simply don't. I do agree (obviously) that we need a ton more pieces, and I guess that's what acquiring picks is all about. But if I have NO FAITH in whom those picks will be used upon, why would I want to trade established good-to-very-good players for them when I find the picks worthless.

    I wish I had more faith in Mangini than I currently do, and that's the source of this argument.

    @.mz said:

    It's due to the fact that you guys trust Mangini to build this team from the ground, and I guess, simply, I don't.

    Didn't particularly care for his draft. Or his choice of OC. Or his trades. Or his demeanor. Or his early benching of a QB.

    So what's left?

    Nothing, probably.

    I guess if I agreed with many (or any) of his moves, I'd have faith in some rebuilding effort, like you guys (choco, Earl34, etc.). But I just simply don't. I do agree (obviously) that we need a ton more pieces, and I guess that's what acquiring picks is all about. But if I have NO FAITH in whom those picks will be used upon, why would I want to trade established good-to-very-good players for them when I find the picks worthless.

    I wish I had more faith in Mangini than I currently do, and that's the source of this argument.

    Thanks button for this post to you.

    I'm not a big Mangini fan, and like I have said earlier, I thought the Browns settled for mediocrity with the hiring of him. Only time will tell I guess, hopefully we get this team turned around next year.

  • Yes, Earl.

    So what I'm saying is I don't think Mangini is much better than Savage (albeit with less of meaningful sample). And that's where my consternation comes from.

  • . .mz

    Yes, Earl.

    So what I'm saying is I don't think Mangini is much better than Savage (albeit with less of meaningful sample). And that's where my consternation comes from.

    @.mz said:

    Yes, Earl.

    So what I'm saying is I don't think Mangini is much better than Savage (albeit with less of meaningful sample). And that's where my consternation comes from.

    First hand information tells me he's a MUCH better judge of talent...but time will have to convince you of that.

    . 1 Reply
  • . .mz

    @choco said:

    but who did you really want?

    Joe Thomas. Swear on the Virtual Bible I Don't Believe In Anyway...

    @.mz said:

    Joe Thomas. Swear on the Virtual Bible I Don't Believe In Anyway...

    sorry for pigeon holin ya as an AP advocate.....

    the good news is, 90% of mangini's job is on the 2010 draft......so it shouldn't be much longer for some insight to his plan... 🙂

    edit: xxxx.....

  • E Earl34

    @.mz said:

    Yes, Earl.

    So what I'm saying is I don't think Mangini is much better than Savage (albeit with less of meaningful sample). And that's where my consternation comes from.

    First hand information tells me he's a MUCH better judge of talent...but time will have to convince you of that.

    @earl34 said:

    First hand information tells me he's a MUCH better judge of talent...but time will have to convince you of that.

    I guess I have no other option than to sit back and hope, right?

    @choco said:

    sorry for pigeon holin ya as an AP advocate.....

    the good news is, 90% of mangini's job is on the 2010 draft......so it shouldn't be much longer for some insight to his plan... 🙂

    edit: xxxx.....

    And I'll have my fingers crossed next April, because he gave up a TON for the picks he's getting then.

  • For a team in dire need of so much, the trade down was fine.

    Everyone in football knows how these things work. The Browns were literally over a barrel in search of players, lowering our pick value based on our needs.

    When it come time for your pick are you gonna just suck it up and draft (best available)Sanchize or are you gonna bite the bullet and take what you can get?

    We've had a bad mix of good talent, that a hard situation to get out of without losing value somewhere. But you still have to get out of it.

    i like the philosophy, if it continues we eventually have solid depth and can afford to gamble on the Franchize player.

    guns don't kill kids-pitt bulls do.

  • @inspecta said:

    So we got 11 picks right now, and I'm sure Quinn will garner at least 2 more picks bringing our total to......carry the one...divide by two.....13 picks!!!

    That's an entire side of the ball plus......multiply by 5 and then cross multiply the numerator.......2!!!

    That's a lot of players to bring in for one draft. Which also means we are going to be a super super young team in 2010. Which will probably mean we won't be much better.

    You know how this is going to play out right gentlemen?

    We will actually draft 13 studs in that draft, but it will take 2 years for them to develop. The 2012 season will see the Browns firing out of the gate smiting every team in our path, our course towards the super bowl looks imminent, and then on December 21st, in accordance with Mayan calenders......the world comes to an end.

    That's it folks, thanks for playing.....

    Dammit, where is the thanks button when I need it. This made me 😆 . We are doomed, just when we will be getting good. 😆

    BTW: what is the breakdown of our picks right now. (what rounds and how many of each round)

  • . .mz

    @choco said:

    but who did you really want?

    Joe Thomas. Swear on the Virtual Bible I Don't Believe In Anyway...

    @.mz said:

    Joe Thomas. Swear on the Virtual Bible I Don't Believe In Anyway...
    Speaking of the virtual Bible...exceptionally funny Bills post about how they'll rebound and go to the playoffs.
    All ravens are crows but not all crows are ravens.

  • this was a great post, thanks for the post that being said

    I think Mangenuis is a great coach, and the players are buying in to him ( they gave him the game ball in the Bills game)

    I thought both trades were great!!!!!t

    I will admit I was pissed when we did not take AP......Joe Thomas is great, but Ap is AP how many running backs like that come into the NFL...not many...

    I do want the Browns to have a smash mouth running game with a nasty Defense, and think we are beginning to see the nasty Defense with the same players as last year, but with a different coach...Now we just need the running back....

  • . .mz

    There are PLENTY of folks on this board who would have had vastly better drafts than Phil Savage, a so-called "professional." Just because a person works in football doesn't mean he's automatically smarter or better informed than anyone else. All it means is he has that job and we don't. 🙂

    Perhaps I just watch more football than you do. I dunno. I live on the WC and I had seen Alex Mack play numerous times. I saw Revis play every year he was in college as he played in the same conference as my team. IIRC, Revis was also to top rated CB that year by the "draft pundits."

    And of course we all evaluate things as we see them. It's human nature. You can't force me to disagree with my own opinion, as it doesn't work that way.

    @.mz said:

    There are PLENTY of folks on this board who would have had vastly better drafts than Phil Savage, a so-called "professional." Just because a person works in football doesn't mean he's automatically smarter or better informed than anyone else. All it means is he has that job and we don't. 🙂

    Perhaps I just watch more football than you do. I dunno. I live on the WC and I had seen Alex Mack play numerous times. I saw Revis play every year he was in college as he played in the same conference as my team. IIRC, Revis was also to top rated CB that year by the "draft pundits."

    And of course we all evaluate things as we see them. It's human nature. You can't force me to disagree with my own opinion, as it doesn't work that way.

    uh... are you REALLY trying to say that you can evaluate talent better than professional scouts? 🤔

    :neutral_face:
    . 1 Reply
  • . .mz

    I guess I need to buy into the Mangini System and STFU. Sounds familiar. 😛

    @.mz said:

    I guess I need to buy into the Mangini System and STFU. Sounds familiar. 😛

    We have no choice at this point, I posted this in another thread yesterday. Yeah it sucks to have to wait for a contender.

    If Mangini is this supposed defensive guru, fix the defense with all these "extra" picks in the 2010 draft after the QB pick is made in Round #1 (if that's what they plan on doing). We don't know what they will do, right now they may not even know what they will do in the upcoming draft.

    Let's upset the Steelers, so we can get some happiness around here.

    Karlis Missed
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