Have we been doing this backwards
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I look at Baltimore and Pittsburgh and how they built the current teams they have,... and the QB situation's they had. Then I look at what we have been doing the past 10 years. Both Baltimore and Pitts, initially lived with veteran QB's and built a foundation with several playmakers..THEN.. they inserted a young gun rookie in flacco and Bigben..
The Browns on the other hand.. have drafted a qb'(ssss) and tried to build a team around them.. The talent around them has been terrible and the QB's have floundered to say the least.. and we end up firing coaches every 3 years tearing apart the team and starting again..thus stunting any real development of this team.
I believe we steer clear of drafting a qb next year..Draft DE with the first pick as we have not drafted on the DL in 7 years. I think our LB corp is good enough if we can get more talent in front of them..The DB-field is up and coming.. and will also be helped with a better DL..
OR, ..get a real RB to pound the rock and controll the clock.. We had a shot a lynch 2 years ago.. and several other RB's.. Adrain P.. but don't get me started on that again..haha
As for our QB conundrum.. I say we bring in either a grizzled veteran or a 4th or 5th year guy who gets caught in a numbers crunch somewhere..Let them compete with whoever survives this offseaon. Work on building a solid base of a team and get some real playmakers on defense.. THEN.... add the young gun QB to the mix...
It seems we don't need to look far in Balt and Pitts for a good model on how to do this..but we have been going about it from the opposite approach for the past 10 years.
I look at Baltimore and Pittsburgh and how they built the current teams they have,... and the QB situation's they had. Then I look at what we have been doing the past 10 years. Both Baltimore and Pitts, initially lived with veteran QB's and built a foundation with several playmakers..THEN.. they inserted a young gun rookie in flacco and Bigben..
The Browns on the other hand.. have drafted a qb'(ssss) and tried to build a team around them.. The talent around them has been terrible and the QB's have floundered to say the least.. and we end up firing coaches every 3 years tearing apart the team and starting again..thus stunting any real development of this team.
I believe we steer clear of drafting a qb next year..Draft DE with the first pick as we have not drafted on the DL in 7 years. I think our LB corp is good enough if we can get more talent in front of them..The DB-field is up and coming.. and will also be helped with a better DL..
OR, ..get a real RB to pound the rock and controll the clock.. We had a shot a lynch 2 years ago.. and several other RB's.. Adrain P.. but don't get me started on that again..haha
As for our QB conundrum.. I say we bring in either a grizzled veteran or a 4th or 5th year guy who gets caught in a numbers crunch somewhere..Let them compete with whoever survives this offseaon. Work on building a solid base of a team and get some real playmakers on defense.. THEN.... add the young gun QB to the mix...
It seems we don't need to look far in Balt and Pitts for a good model on how to do this..but we have been going about it from the opposite approach for the past 10 years.
Interesting. I have never really looked at it like that. I was never a big fan of Maddox. When we drafted Ben I was happy as hell and when Maddox went down I knew it was only up that the STEELERS could go without that douche on our team. He was overrated but liked because he sent the Kordell experiment to the bench.
With the Browns I have almost always looked at the problem as a coaching problem. You have had plenty of good and above average QBs along with players on the team. I just never thought they were able to put a full team together (perhaps somewhat what you are saying) and I never thought they were able to get the players to step up to the next level... once again I blame the coaches. You have had quality draft positions and your O-line should have been one of the better ones in the league. Your defense is what I always thought needed to be worked on.
Today, I blame almost all of your problems on Mangini. He created a QB controversy and tore up any team chemistry you had. He came in like a dumb monkey and tore it up in a bad way. Some coaches can come in (I'll take Tomlin as an example since I am a STEELERS fan) and can be tough on their players and have them put out extra effort for them. Then you have coaches like Mangini who come in and don't understand a team and the first thing he does is screw with the teams history and fans by taking down some of the best browns players in the stadium? Then trades away some of the best playmakers on the team? His ego got in the way and he is the biggest problem Cleveland needs to hurdle right now. I'd love to see the browns become a tough team to beat once again and help make the AFC one of the toughest divisions in the league. I don't ever see that happening with Mangini making the decisions he has and may make in the future.
That is my opinion. Sorry if it seems harsh. I'm just looking at it and talking about what I see.
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I hear what your saying..but it's a bigger and longer duration problem than just this year and mangini.. I am looking at the last decade. Now I am not saying that you CANNOT build a team around a qb..certainly it can be done, and has been done.. It's just that WE are not that team..we have too many holes.. It seems we keep making the same mistakes over and over again when there are plenty of examples..as i noted.. that show building a team ..THEN getting your QB seems to work much better.. I'm all for taking a different approach to get this thing going in the right direction.
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I don't think Mangini created a QB controversy, the same controversy existed last season. I don't have a problem with drafting a QB now but he shouldn't be played until the team is improved around him. So, we draft a QB this year and let him sit out next year as the receivers, OL and new RB improve. Then you play him the following year.
I don't think the browns have had that much talent Eason was considered our best defensive lineman and he is a backup on the steelers, just as one example.
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I don't think Mangini created a QB controversy, the same controversy existed last season. I don't have a problem with drafting a QB now but he shouldn't be played until the team is improved around him. So, we draft a QB this year and let him sit out next year as the receivers, OL and new RB improve. Then you play him the following year.
I don't think the browns have had that much talent Eason was considered our best defensive lineman and he is a backup on the steelers, just as one example.
I don't think Mangini created a QB controversy, the same controversy existed last season. I don't have a problem with drafting a QB now but he shouldn't be played until the team is improved around him. So, we draft a QB this year and let him sit out next year as the receivers, OL and new RB improve. Then you play him the following year.
I don't think the browns have had that much talent Eason was considered our best defensive lineman and he is a backup on the steelers, just as one example.
I just don't see where bringing in a rookie QB on a team with a pathetic defense, no running backs to protect him, and recievers who are just learning are not going to again equal failure. I stand by the initial premise of this post that we have to put the other things in order before we draft a QB and set them up to fail.. We have done that for 10 years now without a glimmer of success... It's time to try something else.
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You don't build a team by going for a QB first....you build a team by going for the best possible player first....and if it happens to be a QB, then you do it.
The Steelers took Terry Bradshaw in year #2 of Chuck Noll's regime. The Cowboys took Troy Aikman in year #1 of Jimmy Johnson's regime. Denver didn't have jack on their team when they traded for John Elway. If the guy is there with the talent you think and has it, you take him.
Otherwise, build a team with the Best Player Available, regardless of position. And you can't just build a team with Round 1. You need to draft well and get some guys round 3 and on....
Consider all of the recent Steelers players who were either rookie FAs or 3rd round and later picks that played significant roles--majority were starters--for one or both of their recent Super Bowl runs:
Hines Ward
Joey Porter
Aaron Smith
Brett Kiesel
Willie Colon
Max Starks
Chris Kemoeatu
Ike Taylor
Willie Gay
Deshea Townsend
Larry Foote
Darnell Stapleton
Dan Krieder
Willie Parker
James Harrison
There has to be a lot of talent development--not just from the top of the draft--but from all avenues in order to win in this league now.
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Good teams draft well and develop players, like Jerome Harrison. Its plain and simple, in football you cant buy a linebacker and have him change the dynamic positively simply by inserting him. Football is a game a chemistry and teamwork. Thats why it is America's favorite sport. Nothing gets Americans going like team work and thats why Baseball is such a joke anymore, between that and steroids.
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There is no one way to build the team, there is nothing wrong with starting with a franchise QB. what is important is to have a vision, follow through with the vision (draft/get players accordingly) and staying consistent (not changing coaches too often or hire coaches who can continue where the previous coach left - not blow up what little was built and start from scratch).
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Here is why I so fully agree with this thread...
If we draft a STUD QB, he is UNPROVEN. That means that if they stink the joint up, we STILL don't know whether the problem is the QB or our system. Get a proven, (note I didn't say all pro) veteran QB in here, & if he fails as miserably as the others have this year, we should really start looking at our schemes needing to be reworked.
Draft that stud QB AFTER we are more established, or draft a young project a little deeper into the draft who will benefit under a veteran's tutelage.
Mike
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I totally agree with these posts. It seems there ARE signs of intelligent life on this forum after all.
It seems that most Browns fans have the mentality that since we're 1-6, on the way to 3-13, that it's time to start over... again. It's not. It's time to commit to a plan.
I was talking to somebody about this the other day. I told them how happy I'd be if there came an announcement out of Berea that DA was signed to a 4-6 year, whatever $million deal. Not because I'm a DA fan, but because it shows direction. The Browns are not far from being a decent team. We have 11 picks in the draft next year and a bunch of money freed up by some of the trades and cuts that have been made, including BQ's bonuses.
In my opinion, there are a few players that should definitely be on the team next year, with appropriate contract extensions:
Joe Thomas, Josh Cribbs, D'Qwell Jackson, Shawn Rogers, and Eric Wright, as well as the rookies brought in this year, Brian Robiskie, Mohamed Massaquoi, James Davis, Alex Mack, Veiune (sp?), Meiuva (sp?). This would give each unit a solid base to build around.
As far as the QB? I like what I've seen posted in this thread about that position. I agree that it's not the time to draft a QB. He won't succeed. Whether it's DA or BQ or someone else already in the league (I like the thought of Vince Young), it doesn't matter. Make a commitment and stick to it until the team is strong and can protect a young QB.
Use all those picks and all that money to solidify the right side of the OL. I love the idea of Fraley playing RG. When he's been in, the RBs have ran for 100+ yards, and DA has had time to throw. Get another backup C and play Fraley at RG. He can show Alex Mack a lot.
Shore up the DL. A solid DE shouldn't be hard to come by in the draft. A head hunting FS (without a history of concussions) is also a nice thought. A FA CB and some depth to the other positions, and we're on our way.
I'm ready for this team to step up and make the moves it needs to. I knew it would not be changed over night and it may not be fixed for a couple more years yet. But when I look at the potential, I'm hopeful change is around the corner. We're closer than we were last year. I can just feel it. Go Browns!
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We draft guys and since we have no vets by the time the rooks get "ready" their contracts are up so were back to square 1. If we keep loseing nobody in their prime is going to want to come or stay here. I mite be wrong but we been getting beat for so long I can't tell what the problem is other than we suck.
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No doubt we have.
You can paint and polish a old clunker to make it look pretty good, but if the tires are bad and the engine leaks oil, you still have a piece of crap.
In football terms, linemen are engines and tires...qbs and backs are paint and polish.
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You don't build a team by going for a QB first....you build a team by going for the best possible player first....and if it happens to be a QB, then you do it.
The Steelers took Terry Bradshaw in year #2 of Chuck Noll's regime. The Cowboys took Troy Aikman in year #1 of Jimmy Johnson's regime. Denver didn't have jack on their team when they traded for John Elway. If the guy is there with the talent you think and has it, you take him.
Otherwise, build a team with the Best Player Available, regardless of position. And you can't just build a team with Round 1. You need to draft well and get some guys round 3 and on....
Consider all of the recent Steelers players who were either rookie FAs or 3rd round and later picks that played significant roles--majority were starters--for one or both of their recent Super Bowl runs:
Hines Ward
Joey Porter
Aaron Smith
Brett Kiesel
Willie Colon
Max Starks
Chris Kemoeatu
Ike Taylor
Willie Gay
Deshea Townsend
Larry Foote
Darnell Stapleton
Dan Krieder
Willie Parker
James Harrison
There has to be a lot of talent development--not just from the top of the draft--but from all avenues in order to win in this league now.
You don't build a team by going for a QB first....you build a team by going for the best possible player first....and if it happens to be a QB, then you do it.
Otherwise, build a team with the Best Player Available, regardless of position. And you can't just build a team with Round 1. You need to draft well and get some guys round 3 and on....
I agree 100% Phil talked about drafting BPA but seldom did it except when he thought Braylon was the best player in the draft, nice call Phil. The worst thing that can happen is that you end up with too much talent at one position. So, if you end up with two RGs that are starter material you can move one of them to another position or trade one of them.
If you keep your eye one who the best player is at any position you can't go wrong, within reason. One thing about this draft is that there are only 4 positions that are set in stone. LT, NT, Center, ILB (DQ) and maybe LG Any good player would be a possible upgrade at other positions
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