Mangini driving away GM candidates
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Formerly Stone said:
If Lerner cared, he would hire the best known guy available and let him do what is needed. Like Parcels in Miami, he brought in what was needed instead of letting a coach decide who his boss should be.....it's just another example of Lerner either being incompetent or complacent that it doesn't matter because the stands will be full no matter what he does.not sure if you've been under a rock or not for the past week. But thats exactly what lerner is in the process of doing.
not sure if you've been under a rock or not for the past week. But thats exactly what lerner is in the process of doing.
No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM
Like I said, at first I thought this was just Mangini letting his ego talk for him again, but apparently GM candidates believe that Lerner's statements, intent, and Mangini's comments, are painting a picture of how things will be... and they want no part of it.
As others have stated, it's amazing but true, that there are many respected and knowledgeable people in the football world who think that the Browns are worse off today than before Mangnini took over. That's saying a lot because things weren't good before. But hiring a new GM and coach (usually in that order) is supposed to reinvigorate a team and fanbase. The exact opposite has been achieved here and in real football terms the organization IS worse off today than a year ago.
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not sure if you've been under a rock or not for the past week. But thats exactly what lerner is in the process of doing.
No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM
Like I said, at first I thought this was just Mangini letting his ego talk for him again, but apparently GM candidates believe that Lerner's statements, intent, and Mangini's comments, are painting a picture of how things will be... and they want no part of it.
As others have stated, it's amazing but true, that there are many respected and knowledgeable people in the football world who think that the Browns are worse off today than before Mangnini took over. That's saying a lot because things weren't good before. But hiring a new GM and coach (usually in that order) is supposed to reinvigorate a team and fanbase. The exact opposite has been achieved here and in real football terms the organization IS worse off today than a year ago.
No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM
OK, where exactly can this be verified....I saw he said he would have input on the GM...all the other stuff is stuff I missed or stuff you are fabricating.
Any links??
Really.....I am not calling you out here Joe....just wanting to find out what is true and what is BS that has morphed from one thing in to another over the last week or so.
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not sure if you've been under a rock or not for the past week. But thats exactly what lerner is in the process of doing.
No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM
Like I said, at first I thought this was just Mangini letting his ego talk for him again, but apparently GM candidates believe that Lerner's statements, intent, and Mangini's comments, are painting a picture of how things will be... and they want no part of it.
As others have stated, it's amazing but true, that there are many respected and knowledgeable people in the football world who think that the Browns are worse off today than before Mangnini took over. That's saying a lot because things weren't good before. But hiring a new GM and coach (usually in that order) is supposed to reinvigorate a team and fanbase. The exact opposite has been achieved here and in real football terms the organization IS worse off today than a year ago.
No. What Lerner has allowed to be "out there" and fester, bolstered by Mangini's comments that he'll "have input" into the selection of the Czar is that the Czar won't have the authority to fire or hire a coach, and that Mangini will continue to have authority over the Czar or GM
When exactly did he say, or even hint, that this would be the case. I haven't read or heard this anywhere.
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Wow.
I realize that Mangina has really screwed the pooch so far, but after reading this thread the following thought occurred to me......is it even possible for any single person to so completely and utterly ruin (not hurt, hold back, etc.....but ruin) an NFL team as quickly and efficiently as this fraud has ruined our Browns?
Unfortunately, I think not. The degree of ineptitude this douche has reached is fcuking unimaginable.
Hopefully Lerner's just letting him think he's going to be "involved" in the GM hiring to just keep him content until he finds an acceptable replacement so he can shitcan his Charlie Brown-attempting-to-kick-a-football-and-falling-on-his-ass ass.
I'm convinced that one of these Sundays we'll see a monkey cornholing a donkey on the sideline....just because. At least it would be an improvement though.
Wow.
I realize that Mangina has really screwed the pooch so far, but after reading this thread the following thought occurred to me......is it even possible for any single person to so completely and utterly ruin (not hurt, hold back, etc.....but ruin) an NFL team as quickly and efficiently as this fraud has ruined our Browns?
Unfortunately, I think not. The degree of ineptitude this douche has reached is fcuking unimaginable.
Hopefully Lerner's just letting him think he's going to be "involved" in the GM hiring to just keep him content until he finds an acceptable replacement so he can shitcan his Charlie Brown-attempting-to-kick-a-football-and-falling-on-his-ass ass.
I'm convinced that one of these Sundays we'll see a monkey cornholing a donkey on the sideline....just because. At least it would be an improvement though.
Dude I hate to break to ya but there was nothing to ruin to begin with.
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Wow.
I realize that Mangina has really screwed the pooch so far, but after reading this thread the following thought occurred to me......is it even possible for any single person to so completely and utterly ruin (not hurt, hold back, etc.....but ruin) an NFL team as quickly and efficiently as this fraud has ruined our Browns?
Unfortunately, I think not. The degree of ineptitude this douche has reached is fcuking unimaginable.
Hopefully Lerner's just letting him think he's going to be "involved" in the GM hiring to just keep him content until he finds an acceptable replacement so he can shitcan his Charlie Brown-attempting-to-kick-a-football-and-falling-on-his-ass ass.
I'm convinced that one of these Sundays we'll see a monkey cornholing a donkey on the sideline....just because. At least it would be an improvement though.
How can you say Mangini ruined the Browns? The team has been horrible since they returned to Cleveland. They were 4-12 last year, and got rid of the prima dona's and are rebuilding this year.....so exactly how does anyone with any common sense expect them to improve on the previous years record. Common sense tells you its going to be a tougher year, now nobody has enough patience to let Mangini build a winner. This year isn't even really a rebuilding year, its a demolishing year. Get rid of big useless contracts to free up money so he can actually sign big FA names (which he couldnt do last year), gain extra draft picks for next year, and created depth. Atleast give him 1 year of rebuilding before you judge him.
This is like you remodeling someone's house, tearing out the walls, then them saying they want to hire someone else because they dont like the job you did remodeling. Kinda dumb aint it?
nmills said:
How can you say Mangini ruined the Browns? The team has been horrible since they returned to Cleveland. They were 4-12 last year, and got rid of the prima dona's and are rebuilding this year.....Well said Nmills! I'm not sure why people think 1 simple character assassination means we've been doing everything else perfect since 1999. We're running out of people that would even CONSIDER coming to this organization to COACH it or MANAGE it.
The last regime started us out with Trent Doofus w/ Charlie Frye on deck. In addition, they signed the following free agent blanks: Jason Fiske, Ted Washington, Joe Andruzzi, Kevin Shaffer (a backup today in Chicago), Antwaan Peek, etc. We have very very very few late round draft picks making the team or resurfacing on other rosters.
The last regime left us Kellen Winslow's swollen gonads as the final straw that broke the camel's back in wanting ANYTHING else to do with Cleveland. Somehow that's all Mangini's fault today but I don't feel like smoking the crack to understand such a thought. All the while, he and Braylon dreamed of brighter lights - bigger cities. They were done here so what to do with it? And don't forget, Winslow left alot of his ability on that pavement. He couldn't EVER practice during the week which doesn't improve chemistry w/ QBs. When we wanted to seal the edge - we had to take him out or leave the D knowing which TE side we're running behind should we run on 3rd down.
Furthermore, how about understanding that Savage left us 4 draft picks for 2009 AFTER he took the league by storm with this 2008 draft featuring ZERO 1st day selections: Beau Bell, Martin Rucker, Ahtyba Rubin (1 keeper), Paul Hubbard, Alex Hall (ho-hum). If you can't fathom the sum of 9 draft picks looking at the crap we brought here in the 08 draft - be HAPPY we doubled 4 draft picks to 8 draft picks for 2009. Meanwhile Winslow & Edwards are a combined for 2-10 elsewhere. Jets were 3-1 before Edwards arrived.
It took us 3 years to determine Travis Wilson couldn't catch. 3 years. It took us 3 years to say - let's see what we have in Quinn. At least Mangini STARTED the kid for God sakes. I woulda sat his ass too if 3 of the 4 times we crossed the 50 were because Cribbs returned the ball past it. Now that I've DA again, I'm reminded why I couldn't wait to see what Quinn had in the first place.
Have I even touched on how bad Stallworth messed up commitments that were being made to him?
If we're being honest about Mangini - did he win when he had a healthy Chad Pennington? 10 times in 06. Did he win when he had a healthy Brett Favre? 9 times - is the current team projecting more wins over there? Doesn't look like it all of a sudden.
There's been a ton of blunders made heading into 2009 - so WHY chase one of the only guys interested in THIS challenge away? Your Billy Cowher said Hell No folks. And Marty? I think he was trying to be politically correct and polite in saying "no thanks." Word gets around about what front offices are in a state of chaos. There is NO Billy Cowhers, Jon Grudens or Mike Shanahans with enough dead dome cells to take on this Head Coaching gig. That being the case, let's let the ink dry on Mangini's contract before we think another Lerner firing and hiring is going to be the 1 thing missing from winning consistently. I've been hearing all about since 1999 and here we are folks. And btw, we fired Mo Carthon to get to Jeff Davidson, to get to Chud to get to Daboll and at some point - we're gonna need to give an OC something better to attack with than pawns. I don't think Houdini could make this passing game work with the crud we have at the skill positions. This is the worst roster of WRs and TEs I've ever laid my eyes on here. Our workhorse in the backfield looks like an ad for AARP every Sunday. There isn't breathing human that's gonna make the playcalling look any better, if we can't catch or throw and stay married to the idea of Jamal Lewis starting.
I'm not saying I know either way about Mangini. I'm saying I understand how crappy the deck was he was dealt. Firing him as fast as we can doesn't do anything but show the rest of America - see what you get for TRYING to right the wrong in Cleveland? This mess wasn't cooked up in a microwave - it began in 1999 and it's been slow-cooking ever since. Again, we had 4 draft picks scheduled for the 2009 draft and the draft volume doubled.
Quit whining about Mangini folks! Nuff said...
- Tom F.
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/..._expects_t.html
BEREA, Ohio -- Eric Mangini said he'll have input into the hiring of the new general manager of the Browns.
Mangini's first hand-picked general manager, George Kokinis, parted ways with the Browns on Monday, with no word from either side on whether he was fired or resigned.
"Yeah, Randy and I talk a lot, so I'm sure we'll be very engaged in that [decision]," said Mangini.
Asked if it would be hard to add a GM midway through the NFL season, Mangini said, "we're just going through the process, so I'm not sure how that will all play out. We have to really see what's there, see what's available."
He indicated that the Browns have strong enough pro and college departments to function without a GM for the rest of the season.
"I'm not sure what the timetable will be, but I do feel good about the process we have in place and the different departments we have in place," he said.
You're correct that there is no link where Lerner refuted Mangini's comments that Mangini would be involved in the hiring decisions.
By leaving Mangini's statement out there, even after reports that it's keeping GMs away, Lerner's silence is sending a very loud message to all credible GM candidates. I'd expect that silence is why the GM candidates that Lombardi interviewed are taking a "hands off" approach, specifically noting that it's Mangini's in depth involvement and Lerner's vote of confidence in Mangini that's having the effect.
The silence from Lerner is deafening. But seeing as Lerner still hasn't asserted himself if may be that he and Mangnini may have a hand picked candidate who will be willing to accept the fact that Mangini remains in charge already. Maybe that's Kosar, who himself has no prior GM or front office opinion.
I don't know how good or bad Kosar would do but I do think this team, and this fan base, need someone with proven experience and credibility... the exact opposite of what the current coach/GM have given them.
Sometimes one can say more by remaining silent - and that's what Lerner's doing here, even though he now knows that it's keeping candidates away.
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All Lerner has to say to the new guy is it is your decision.
He doesn't need to refute Mangini.
Here is how it will work.
1. Lerner hires a Czar/President
2. The Czar consults with Mangini when he hires a GM.
That's it...Mangini gives his opinion.
How much weight it is given only time will tell, but trust me, whoever comes in isn't going to be behind the coach in the power structure.
Mangini should have input. He is the head coach.
Put your personal dislike and bias aside for a few moments and think about it.
The odds are good Mangini doesn't survive....but...
I don't think Mangini is void of coaching skills or has a bad plan.
Just be fair and rational.
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Speaking of Mangini not surviving, the following is worth looking at:
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/11/0...browns-disarray
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Speaking of Mangini not surviving, the following is worth looking at:
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/11/0...browns-disarray
Speaking of Mangini not surviving, the following is worth looking at:
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/11/0...browns-disarray
already posted http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8552
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/..._expects_t.html
BEREA, Ohio -- Eric Mangini said he'll have input into the hiring of the new general manager of the Browns.
Mangini's first hand-picked general manager, George Kokinis, parted ways with the Browns on Monday, with no word from either side on whether he was fired or resigned.
"Yeah, Randy and I talk a lot, so I'm sure we'll be very engaged in that [decision]," said Mangini.
Asked if it would be hard to add a GM midway through the NFL season, Mangini said, "we're just going through the process, so I'm not sure how that will all play out. We have to really see what's there, see what's available."
He indicated that the Browns have strong enough pro and college departments to function without a GM for the rest of the season.
"I'm not sure what the timetable will be, but I do feel good about the process we have in place and the different departments we have in place," he said.
You're correct that there is no link where Lerner refuted Mangini's comments that Mangini would be involved in the hiring decisions.
By leaving Mangini's statement out there, even after reports that it's keeping GMs away, Lerner's silence is sending a very loud message to all credible GM candidates. I'd expect that silence is why the GM candidates that Lombardi interviewed are taking a "hands off" approach, specifically noting that it's Mangini's in depth involvement and Lerner's vote of confidence in Mangini that's having the effect.
The silence from Lerner is deafening. But seeing as Lerner still hasn't asserted himself if may be that he and Mangnini may have a hand picked candidate who will be willing to accept the fact that Mangini remains in charge already. Maybe that's Kosar, who himself has no prior GM or front office opinion.
I don't know how good or bad Kosar would do but I do think this team, and this fan base, need someone with proven experience and credibility... the exact opposite of what the current coach/GM have given them.
Sometimes one can say more by remaining silent - and that's what Lerner's doing here, even though he now knows that it's keeping candidates away.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/..._expects_t.html
You're correct that there is no link where Lerner refuted Mangini's comments that Mangini would be involved in the hiring decisions.
By leaving Mangini's statement out there, even after reports that it's keeping GMs away, Lerner's silence is sending a very loud message to all credible GM candidates. I'd expect that silence is why the GM candidates that Lombardi interviewed are taking a "hands off" approach, specifically noting that it's Mangini's in depth involvement and Lerner's vote of confidence in Mangini that's having the effect.
The silence from Lerner is deafening.
Lerner's not exactly a talkative guy, given to making public statements. I wouldn't be so quick to interpret his silence that strongly. I don't remember hearing anything that I would interpret as giving Mangini a "vote of confidence."
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Randy Lerner is VERY lucky to have such a forgiving fan base.
I can think of a pretty long list of cities who would be expecting their owner to speak out to make this very simple and reasonable statement: "It's my decision as the owner who to hire as GM and it's the GM's decision on who to have as the head coach"
Look - you think I'm not being objective but I think Cleveland fans need to look at their own objectivity. Even aside from the awful football, awful record, and the fact that not one but two close personal confidants/hand-picked selections of Mangini have been fired in a matter of days would have many fans wondering why Lerner doesn't seem to mind that Manginin continues to assert his position as one of the prime decisoin makers in the next GM sweepstakes.
To have his coach assert himself that way, and then to know that GMs are staying away because of it, and just remaining silent is irresponsible and wouldn't be quite as well received and accepted elsewhere.
Most fans wouldn't think that was asking too much... I certainly HOPE Lerner would basicly tell them - "hey, regardless of what that guy Mangini's saying, if you say he's gone, he's gone" but if it's keeping GM candidates away I'd think you'd at least leak it to the press that Mangini's gone the moment the GM says so. As I said, the silence is deafening.
I'll say this - the fans of Cleveland sure have given the Lerners one long honeymoon.
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Formerly Stone said:
No big time "czar" is going to want to inherit a situation where the first thing he has to do is fire the head coach who has had less than a season to work with........that would a be a lose-lose situation!So the only "czar" who would ever take that position is a guy who is 100% confident that Mangini is "the" guy.
I understand, and agree with that point.
If the new guy is offered and he accepts and he doesn't want Mangini, the firing of Mangini will take place before he is announced so as you say, his first official action isn't to ax the coach
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ITS BULLSHIT..based on zero facts..as usual
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What would be foolhardy is for Randy to make a statement and then regret it sometime later and again try to dilly dally around it. What he is doing is keep his dignity and just announce the facts. You think Lerner does not know that Mangini has such a negative image right now in Cleveland ? What can be gained by denouncing Mangini in the public ? It just makes life harder for Mangini and when the head coach loses focus what little chance the team has of winning (we still play KC, Raiders & Lions) will also fade away. Lerner's 2 biggest concerns now are:
1. Hiring the right football czar who konws what he is doing.
2. Complete this year with as little negative publicity/Drama as possible.
So, far he is handling 2 successfully.
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there have been rumors spreading on the interwebs that Mike Holmgren is in Berea. We're digging to see if there's anything to them.
Per the OBR twitter page http://twitter.com/TheOBR
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Zombo said:
I don't think he ever got a honeymoon. We've never cared for him one way or the other. He's the owner. We can't call for his head or hope he gets benched ... it's his team.
Do Redskins fans quit being Redskin fans because Dan Snyder is incompetent as a team owner? Do Raider fans quit becoming Raider fans because Al Davis slowly slips from "mad renegade genius" to "crazy old cook"?
You're a New England Patriots fan, right? Were you not a fan when the Sullivan Family owned the team? They owned the team for 29 years from 1960 to 1988 and the Patriots won "O" championships and generally were at the lower end of the food chain during that era (while the Browns were an elite franchise). Did the fans "put up with" the Sullivans? Of course they did, they didn't have a choice. Then you had that idiot Victor Kiam. You had to put up with him too, right? Because he owned the team.
So are you suggesting we go ahead with the Big Gay Protest? That's effing stupid.
We root for competitive games the rest of the year, we root that the defense improves, we root that some of the young guys have the light come on, we root that Mangini's plan starts to take root and results become evident on the field ... and if doesn't work then we call for the coaches head and start over again. And then you can come in here and say "See I told you, Mangini is a fool." We don't care. We'll move on to the next guy and root for him and get excited about his plans. And maybe he'll be the one. Our time will come. We are in dry spell ... 20 years since we were consistently good, 45 years since we won a championship. Just like the Patriots went 30-some years without being consistently good and the Red Sox went like 95 years without a championship. Did you abandon them? Did you hang the owners in effigy? Did you protest outside the stadium, miss kickoff, and then go into to your prepaid seats? Because if you did, you are a numbskull.
Zombo
I hope the Browns can rebuild themselves to be what the Red Sox were even in their 86 year Championship drought.
The vast majority of those years they were competitive. At this rate, it would be a tremendous achievement if the Browns could become credible and competitive in the next 86 years.
But yes, the New England fans most definitely did assert themselves. Even though the Patriots had been to the Super Bowl in 85 five years later the team was in such disarray that fans voted with their pocketbooks, and forced the owner to improve the team, or sell it (he did both). Magnini's right - there are comparisons to the Patriots... just the 1-15 1990 team.
There were a great many games blacked out because the stadium didn't sell out. That sent a pretty clear message to the owner who then made the full commitment to improving the team by changing the coach, selling the team and firing another coach to bring in Bill Parcells, a proven coach with a proven record of success. He was smart enough to know that the fans would be excited by such a move and would be supportive of the rebuilding.
So am I disappointed that Kiam didn't give Rod Rust a chance to put his plan into action? Am I upset that Orthwein didn't give Dick MacPherson a chance to succeed (and that's a guy who was an awsome college coach too) - nope. And you wouldn't have found too many fans who thought Kiam or Orthwein were out of line making a change so quickly.
Why would any owner expect fans to be excited about a failed coach who had just been fired? What tolerance was he expecting for a painful rebuilding process? And how much bumbling and fumbling will Lerner and the fans accept until they've said "enough" and do what the Patriots fans did and vote with their feet - which is all they can do.
Now I understand season ticket holders have already paid up... so what's it going to hurt if they send a message by showing the owner their displeasure? Not buying hot dogs and beer is a good idea too - but empty seats is very visible, and very embarrassing - just like the blacked out NE Patriots games were for Kiam.
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Zombo, that's a great post.
I think that the "JoeSixPat trap" here is to eviscerate Mangini's role in New England for nine seasons, minimize his progress/successes in NY and convince you that he's taken a match to your future.
The bottom line is that you see your owner, the fan base and yourself in the proper light. I think you're on to something.
Don't worry about Mangini driving away GMs. You want someone who shares Lerner's vision...and if they get to know Mangini and think he deserves another chance....then fine. Anybody who knows football is going to do their due diligence and not take the media's word for it (or JoeSixPat's).
I think that JoeSixPat is smart but he's not giving you facts. Bill Belicheck (and his assistant coaches) brought respectability back to Robert Kraft's franchise and now SixPat thinks that makes him the expert. You can't tease out who was responsible for what successes. The bottom line is that Kraft built a proper franchise and Lerner has had his ear in the past (including when he hired Mangini).
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Formerly Stone said:
Some people are able to realize that it's colder in winter than in summer without written proof. They make this leap of faith because they have experienced numerous winters and numerous summers and since damn near every winter is colder than damn near every summer. You, on the other hand, may need someone to write a book about it!That's not entirely accurate. It isn't a "leap of faith". If you have experienced winter and summer then you've collected empiric data many times on the same experience by opening the window or stepping outside. To make an assumption about a far more complex process (e.g., the coach driving away GM candidates) than whether or not it is warm in July or cold in January, you would need a lot more data. What you have here is not data. It's hearsay. I'm not saying it would take a lot of measuring to prove or disprove the theory but right now your "n" is not even 1, it's zero.
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No potential GM candidate with interest will base his decision on Adam Schefter , Tony Grossi or Dan Marino. Despite the ranting of the sports media and the fanatics. A GM's interest will depend on how he feels Mangini visions fits his and vice versa. My opinion is you have it all wrong on EM..He won't be threatened by anyone, if the GM has a good draft history and the same vision of what a Browns player should be as EM then it will be a good marriage. Mangini is respected around the league as a good pro coach..People iinvolved in the NFL don't put a lot of stock in media types and their opinions. They really don't..
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Zombo said:
The Browns have better all-time percentages than both the Red Sox and Patriots.
Zombo
Honestly I didn't get past this line until I broke down laughing!!!
What does that have to do with anything that I said??? Do you think the Red Sox might play a few more games each season than the Browns do too?
What's next - do you have kickball team or lacrosse team that you'd like to compare the Browns winning percentage to?
I gotta say, Steelers and Ravens fans must be LOVING your good attitude about this. But I do tend to think that there's more than a few potential GMs who are watching how Lerner and Mangnini are handling/slandering the Kokinis situation and making note of how they'll be treated if and when things don't work out.
That's not a media conspiracy guys.
But you've convinced me. Put those guys who want to see a change in their place. Mock them. Things are going perfectly to plan, just like Mangini wanted all along.
All is well
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