Weis to Cleveland, without Mangini, could be a possibility
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I hear Weiss just bought a house in Strongsville!
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Is Weis really that good? What has he done outside of new england? Do we even know how good he was at New England?
Is Weis really that good? What has he done outside of new england? Do we even know how good he was at New England?
He sure wasn't bad - somewhat predictable. The main plus was that he could generally manage the game and had Belichick's trust, allowing Belichick to focus more on the Defense (ask anyone in New England and they will remind you that Mangini had his play calling authority taken away from him by Belichick, which likely led to Mangini opting to take a job with a Division Rival - a big no no for Belichick).
And of course if the next GM think that Weiss is the right guy to re-build Quinn's confidence that's faltered this season thanks to Mangini's botched handling of the QB situation all the better.
But Lerner by now should realize the "right" way to build a strong organizaiton isn't to hire an assistant coach or a coach and THEN a GM.
Bring in the GM/Czar - all well and good if Weis had an initial interview - but let the GM make the decision. Have the owner hire the right GM and then Shut the F Up.
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Is Weis really that good? What has he done outside of new england? Do we even know how good he was at New England?
Is Weis really that good? What has he done outside of new england? Do we even know how good he was at New England?
hes done more than xxxxing daboll. hes an upgrade. plain and simple, maybe not the messiah, but he would be an upgrade.
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Interesting article. I actually like Weis as an OC and with the right head coach it could be good. However, if Mr. Randy Lerner is planning on firing Mangini he better not hire Weis as the OC before he hires a head coach. All I have to say is hire the GM or President of football operations and let him do the hiring!!
Weis to Cleveland, without Mangini, could be a possibility
Posted by Mike Florio on December 8, 2009 5:37 AM ET
As NFL suitors line up for the services of Charlie Weis (or, possibly, as agent Bob Lamonte tries to create the impression that NFL suitors are lining up for the services of Charlie Weis), we've caught wind of a fairly surprising rumor that the Browns could be in play to land Weis as offensive coordinator.
Our first reaction (and likely yours) was that there's no way Weis would work with coach Eric Mangini, given Weis' close relationship with Patriots coach Bill Belichick and the intense hatred (if there's a stronger word to describe the emotion than hatred, then that) between Belichick and Mangini, due to Spygate and other complications.
But, as the fairly surprising rumor goes, Weis would land in Cleveland as offensive coordinator after the termination of coach Eric Mangini. There's also another fairly surprising rumor that Weis met over the weekend with owner Randy Lerner and G.M. trainee Bernie Kosar.
We're not sure what to make of it, and we're putting it out there primarily because it's an intriguing possibility.
Most intriguing about this possibility is that it would make the Browns more like the Raiders, who routinely hire assistant coaches before hiring a head coach, and then force the head coach to work with men whom the head coach possibly wouldn't have hired.
The move also would be odd because the Browns supposedly are looking to hire a big-name football executive, who presumably would have an opinion as to whether Weis should be hired, before or after a head coach is hired.
The obvious connection between the Browns and Weis comes from quarterback Brady Quinn. Weis coached Quinn at Notre Dame, making him into a guy who was regarded as one of the top picks in the 2007 draft, before he slid all the way into the 20s.
But, again, if the attraction to Weis comes from his connection to Quinn, the notion that both an offensive coordinator and a quarterback could be foisted upon a new head coach suggests that maybe the Browns should consider changing their color scheme to silver and black.
Most intriguing about this possibility is that it would make the Browns more like the Raiders, who routinely hire assistant coaches before hiring a head coach, and then force the head coach to work with men whom the head coach possibly wouldn't have hired.
That'd be totally awesome!!! The Browns could be more like the Raiders... I bet everyone here wants that.
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Most intriguing about this possibility is that it would make the Browns more like the Raiders, who routinely hire assistant coaches before hiring a head coach, and then force the head coach to work with men whom the head coach possibly wouldn't have hired.
That'd be totally awesome!!! The Browns could be more like the Raiders... I bet everyone here wants that.
That'd be totally awesome!!! The Browns could be more like the Raiders... I bet everyone here wants that.
The last time I checked the standings, being more like the Raiders would be a signficant improvement for this team.
Sad but true.
But it's all part of Mangini's genius plan I'm sure. Sometimes you've just got to take a few hundred steps backwards before moving forward.
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1. Mangina is already as good as gone. Bank on it.
2. Weis is either coming to Cleveland or going to Chicago. Probably Chicago. But depending who the football czar is, and who he picks as his head coach, if they seem to have their ish straight Weis may be persuaded to land here.
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Wasnt there a article during the offseason about Mangini or Daboll or both of them talking to Weis about Quinns strengths and play calling ideas? That doesnt sound like a guy that has a grudge againt Mangini
nmills said:
Wasnt there a article during the offseason about Mangini or Daboll or both of them talking to Weis about Quinns strengths and play calling ideas? That doesnt sound like a guy that has a grudge againt Manginiyeah if Weis comes here as an OC, Mangini won't be fired. I would welcome the move.
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nmills said:
Wasnt there a article during the offseason about Mangini or Daboll or both of them talking to Weis about Quinns strengths and play calling ideas? That doesnt sound like a guy that has a grudge againt Manginiyeah if Weis comes here as an OC, Mangini won't be fired. I would welcome the move.
yeah if Weis comes here as an OC, Mangini won't be fired. I would welcome the move.
I'm with you. Somehow people believe that Weis getting hired would mean Mangini's demise. Does it not occur to anyone that Mangini will be here for a few years with or without Charli Weis? Is that so hard to believe?
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1. Mangina is already as good as gone. Bank on it.
2. Weis is either coming to Cleveland or going to Chicago. Probably Chicago. But depending who the football czar is, and who he picks as his head coach, if they seem to have their ish straight Weis may be persuaded to land here.
1. Mangina is already as good as gone. Bank on it.
2. Weis is either coming to Cleveland or going to Chicago. Probably Chicago. But depending who the football czar is, and who he picks as his head coach, if they seem to have their ish straight Weis may be persuaded to land here.
Mangini will be here or I am protesting the team until Randy sells it. If we go through another coach this quickly, the franchise will be ruined. Especially considering we have a good coach now and like it or not, the players that matter do like him. And there is no reason Lerner would allow him to begin the tear down/rebuild without letting him handle the rebuild. It just doesn't make any sense at all why you would hire somebody to re-design and refurbish a property and then fire them after they tear the walls down because the rubble doesn't look as presentable as the vacant property did. What you'll be left with is a mile high stack of rubble that will be twice as hard to clean-up for the next guy.
He better not go anywhere. Lerner has said he's building for the future and of he waffles on that now, I'm out. I've watched people for 20 years come in and try and pretend like we're one player away from contention and ignore the long-term view so they can try and save their job. I won't go through that again.
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I agree completely.
remember Belichick? Cleveland had him(and probably would have continued to have him if Modell didn't plan to move the Browns), remember the Patriots before Belichick got there? Remember how they were bad at first?
things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.
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I agree completely.
remember Belichick? Cleveland had him(and probably would have continued to have him if Modell didn't plan to move the Browns), remember the Patriots before Belichick got there? Remember how they were bad at first?
things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.
things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.
I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
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that's because you've nitpicked all the things he's done wrong and haven't listed the things he's done right, such as being one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, last year we were probably one of the most penalized.
here is a post I quote from ATENEAR'S:
I agree. Mangini has cut 53 players, of which only 3 have been activated on another teams roster (see my post here). Gradkowski-Oak, Bret Lockett-NE, Phil Trautwein-Stl are the only three to make it on an active roster and are of no loss here. Gradkowski has seen a little playing time(my edit: he's doing good for the Raiders now), Lockett is a Db who has 5 tackles and a forced fumble, Trautwein hasn't played.
We are aligned perfectly for a complete rebuilding process, with 11 Draft picks stock-piled. Actually, the tearing down the team and getting ready for rebuild couldn't have been done much better at this point, IMO.
I'm still very much in support of Mangini ... only questioning the coaching on the offensive side of the ball, but realizing this team has very little talent to work with on either side.
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things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.
I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
We got what we needed out of last years bad draft with the money we had to spend. He also started the day with 4 picks. He did excellent. He got a center that will see a few Pro Bowls before he's done, 1 WR in Mo Mass who is showing that although he's young and learning, seems to be getting open more often and is thinking 6pts whenever he gets the ball. Robo will be a solid #2 for years to come. Two young LBs who look like they can do this once they adjust. I say he did pretty well. Addressed needs with very little money. Lewis was trying to get out of town before he retired with a 1-15 team. Once he saw that the media saw him as a whiner, he retracted. Then, notice two weeks later he had concussion symptoms. Those symptoms are my word vs yours. No test can reveal them you just have to listen to the player and bench him.
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Lets not kid ourselves, Lerner has no intention of hiring a GM to make decisions it will always be Mangini. Kokinis was fired to light a fire in the fanbase and since he was irrelavent, his position was expendable. That's it.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
Pressured to find a way to put a bad Brady Quinn in while giving DA a fair shot is what delayed the decision. He knew who his guy was (DA) that's what took so long. Ownership wanted Brady and he needed to find a way to make it look fair. The short leash on Brady was a result of being forced to start him because TO's "intel leak". If he went with DA he would have looked indecisive and spiteful. If coach agreed with the Brady decision it would have been settled before the season. Of course that is all speculation but not even the dumbest human being would have handled it that way. It had to be a power struggle behind the scenes. Notice that every other decision has been concrete and resalute. Why would the QB decision be any different? Because one guy helped the owner, and one guy had the respect of his team. Hence, power struggle and delayed decision.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
We'll see in Free agency who is scared to come here but up till now, he has gotten a few Jets guys to either sign here, or ask to be traded here. If the guy was all that bad, why would players with a choice choose to follow him to a bad team to rebuild?
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
Like it or not, these group of bad players are busting their asses for him. And the guys that aren't Romeo's guys stand behind him all the way. I mean, they poured gatorade over their coach after a 6-3 Bills game. Do you really think that if he were the tyrant the media makes him out to be they would bother with that? Now, he's stroking the fragile ego's of the players after a SD game in which we lost. Its apparent that the players and the coach are in this together. The results aren't there but look at the holes on the roster. QB, RB, WR, CB, OLB those are some big holes and will equal more losses than wins everytime. He needs two more years, the we can start chanting for Cowher.
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Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on these.
I do think that you may be right that Lerner will insist on Mangini staying. He's got far too much ego himself riding on that choice now. Even if Mangini makes his decisions throwing darts against a wall he could restore this team to mediocrity and at least make Lerner feel a bit better.
Mediocrity isn't what I think most fans want however (though it would be a welcome change to this season)
Lerner's said the "right" thing noting that he knows he needs a football "czar". Not everyone believes the Czar will be barred from making important decisions like, oh, who the coach is, but I think you could be right.
If Lerner really wants the "best" GM out there who doesn't stipulate that choosing the coach is his decision, I'd submit that's not the best GM available... far from it in fact.
If Mangini does get the ax I think you'll hear a bit more about how players truly did perceive him. There's certainly some truth that there were plenty of players in NY who liked Mangini... but then again there were plenty of players in NY who were also able to push Mangini around and demand new contracts or trades, and while knowing that they can manipulate their coach might make him popular with the players, that's not necessarily a good thing for the team either.
But beyond player perceptions I think the best you can say is that playcalling has been bad, player personnel decisions have been questionable to bad (and assessments of drafts need to wait multiple years) front office decisions have been bad, and player relations between the coach and players has been questionable to bad. I don't think anyone can look at the evidence of this past year and suggest that any of these realms fall in the good to excellent category.
Questionable/Time will Tell is the best I think anyone can say.
And if a "true" GM is selected with actual powers of a GM, I'd have to think that they might appreciate a fresh start. If you want to give Mangini some credit for completely tearing down what is here to allow for a fresh start, I think that's fair - but I don't think you'd be losing too much of the "progress" that's been made this season by bringing in a new coach next year. Whether Lerner's ego will allow for that is another matter.
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Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on these.
I do think that you may be right that Lerner will insist on Mangini staying. He's got far too much ego himself riding on that choice now. Even if Mangini makes his decisions throwing darts against a wall he could restore this team to mediocrity and at least make Lerner feel a bit better.
Mediocrity isn't what I think most fans want however (though it would be a welcome change to this season)
Lerner's said the "right" thing noting that he knows he needs a football "czar". Not everyone believes the Czar will be barred from making important decisions like, oh, who the coach is, but I think you could be right.
If Lerner really wants the "best" GM out there who doesn't stipulate that choosing the coach is his decision, I'd submit that's not the best GM available... far from it in fact.
If Mangini does get the ax I think you'll hear a bit more about how players truly did perceive him. There's certainly some truth that there were plenty of players in NY who liked Mangini... but then again there were plenty of players in NY who were also able to push Mangini around and demand new contracts or trades, and while knowing that they can manipulate their coach might make him popular with the players, that's not necessarily a good thing for the team either.
But beyond player perceptions I think the best you can say is that playcalling has been bad, player personnel decisions have been questionable to bad (and assessments of drafts need to wait multiple years) front office decisions have been bad, and player relations between the coach and players has been questionable to bad. I don't think anyone can look at the evidence of this past year and suggest that any of these realms fall in the good to excellent category.
Questionable/Time will Tell is the best I think anyone can say.
And if a "true" GM is selected with actual powers of a GM, I'd have to think that they might appreciate a fresh start. If you want to give Mangini some credit for completely tearing down what is here to allow for a fresh start, I think that's fair - but I don't think you'd be losing too much of the "progress" that's been made this season by bringing in a new coach next year. Whether Lerner's ego will allow for that is another matter.
Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on these.
I do think that you may be right that Lerner will insist on Mangini staying. He's got far too much ego himself riding on that choice now. Even if Mangini makes his decisions throwing darts against a wall he could restore this team to mediocrity and at least make Lerner feel a bit better.
Mediocrity isn't what I think most fans want however (though it would be a welcome change to this season)
Lerner's said the "right" thing noting that he knows he needs a football "czar". Not everyone believes the Czar will be barred from making important decisions like, oh, who the coach is, but I think you could be right.
If Lerner really wants the "best" GM out there who doesn't stipulate that choosing the coach is his decision, I'd submit that's not the best GM available... far from it in fact.
If Mangini does get the ax I think you'll hear a bit more about how players truly did perceive him. There's certainly some truth that there were plenty of players in NY who liked Mangini... but then again there were plenty of players in NY who were also able to push Mangini around and demand new contracts or trades, and while knowing that they can manipulate their coach might make him popular with the players, that's not necessarily a good thing for the team either.
But beyond player perceptions I think the best you can say is that playcalling has been bad, player personnel decisions have been questionable to bad (and assessments of drafts need to wait multiple years) front office decisions have been bad, and player relations between the coach and players has been questionable to bad. I don't think anyone can look at the evidence of this past year and suggest that any of these realms fall in the good to excellent category.
Questionable/Time will Tell is the best I think anyone can say.
And if a "true" GM is selected with actual powers of a GM, I'd have to think that they might appreciate a fresh start. If you want to give Mangini some credit for completely tearing down what is here to allow for a fresh start, I think that's fair - but I don't think you'd be losing too much of the "progress" that's been made this season by bringing in a new coach next year. Whether Lerner's ego will allow for that is another matter.
Very good points but I strongly disagree with bringing somebody else in this soon. Tear downs aren't a matter of cutting random guys or flat out dead weight. They are a lot of times very strategic moves based on next years draft, free agents, cap room, coaching strengths, roster depth, roster age, roster experience, and team philosophy and scheme. Moves now are made for the year to come. If you bring in a new guy with a new philosophy and scheme, he's gonna want to go his own direction when the roster has already been set up to go another direction. And since we've been back in 99, coaches try and fix the team in one year and that is a hit or miss strategy. So far, we'ver missed. And that is what sets franchises back 3-5 years. Mangini seems to have the ability and the patience to build for the long-term and anyone who loves the Browns should be excited about that approach. Forget that he has an ego, what coach doesn't. Forget that he practices in full pads more often than not, that's how you change the culture. And forget that he doesn't answer questions clearly, most coaches don't. All I care about is that somebody with experince is trying to build a consistant winner and I have a feeling in a few years fans will be very happy with where we are. If not, let him go and bring in somebody else but at least after a few years Mangini will have this team stable and back in order. I think 2007 gave fans the wrong idea about what this team has been. Its been filled with bad players since 1999 and if it weren't for DA, Braylon, Jamal, and KII playing out of their minds in 07, we were a 4-12 team that year also. The talent isn't here, give the guy a few years to fix it. If not then, throw him out.
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Maybe the VP/GM has been picked but can't be anounced until after thier season. These moves like talking to Wies is his suggestion to Lerner and Bernie, There will be competition for Wies, So waiting may make the Browns lose the opportunity to hire Wies.
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things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.
I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
Blah blah blah blah blah.... I hate Mangini because he exposed my patriots as the cheaters they are blah blah blah....
You are irrelevant.
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Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on these.
I do think that you may be right that Lerner will insist on Mangini staying. He's got far too much ego himself riding on that choice now. Even if Mangini makes his decisions throwing darts against a wall he could restore this team to mediocrity and at least make Lerner feel a bit better.
Mediocrity isn't what I think most fans want however (though it would be a welcome change to this season)
Lerner's said the "right" thing noting that he knows he needs a football "czar". Not everyone believes the Czar will be barred from making important decisions like, oh, who the coach is, but I think you could be right.
If Lerner really wants the "best" GM out there who doesn't stipulate that choosing the coach is his decision, I'd submit that's not the best GM available... far from it in fact.
If Mangini does get the ax I think you'll hear a bit more about how players truly did perceive him. There's certainly some truth that there were plenty of players in NY who liked Mangini... but then again there were plenty of players in NY who were also able to push Mangini around and demand new contracts or trades, and while knowing that they can manipulate their coach might make him popular with the players, that's not necessarily a good thing for the team either.
But beyond player perceptions I think the best you can say is that playcalling has been bad, player personnel decisions have been questionable to bad (and assessments of drafts need to wait multiple years) front office decisions have been bad, and player relations between the coach and players has been questionable to bad. I don't think anyone can look at the evidence of this past year and suggest that any of these realms fall in the good to excellent category.
Questionable/Time will Tell is the best I think anyone can say.
And if a "true" GM is selected with actual powers of a GM, I'd have to think that they might appreciate a fresh start. If you want to give Mangini some credit for completely tearing down what is here to allow for a fresh start, I think that's fair - but I don't think you'd be losing too much of the "progress" that's been made this season by bringing in a new coach next year. Whether Lerner's ego will allow for that is another matter.
Very good points but I strongly disagree with bringing somebody else in this soon. Tear downs aren't a matter of cutting random guys or flat out dead weight. They are a lot of times very strategic moves based on next years draft, free agents, cap room, coaching strengths, roster depth, roster age, roster experience, and team philosophy and scheme. Moves now are made for the year to come. If you bring in a new guy with a new philosophy and scheme, he's gonna want to go his own direction when the roster has already been set up to go another direction. And since we've been back in 99, coaches try and fix the team in one year and that is a hit or miss strategy. So far, we'ver missed. And that is what sets franchises back 3-5 years. Mangini seems to have the ability and the patience to build for the long-term and anyone who loves the Browns should be excited about that approach. Forget that he has an ego, what coach doesn't. Forget that he practices in full pads more often than not, that's how you change the culture. And forget that he doesn't answer questions clearly, most coaches don't. All I care about is that somebody with experince is trying to build a consistant winner and I have a feeling in a few years fans will be very happy with where we are. If not, let him go and bring in somebody else but at least after a few years Mangini will have this team stable and back in order. I think 2007 gave fans the wrong idea about what this team has been. Its been filled with bad players since 1999 and if it weren't for DA, Braylon, Jamal, and KII playing out of their minds in 07, we were a 4-12 team that year also. The talent isn't here, give the guy a few years to fix it. If not then, throw him out.
Very good points but I strongly disagree with bringing somebody else in this soon. Tear downs aren't a matter of cutting random guys or flat out dead weight. They are a lot of times very strategic moves based on next years draft, free agents, cap room, coaching strengths, roster depth, roster age, roster experience, and team philosophy and scheme. Moves now are made for the year to come. If you bring in a new guy with a new philosophy and scheme, he's gonna want to go his own direction when the roster has already been set up to go another direction. And since we've been back in 99, coaches try and fix the team in one year and that is a hit or miss strategy. So far, we'ver missed. And that is what sets franchises back 3-5 years. Mangini seems to have the ability and the patience to build for the long-term and anyone who loves the Browns should be excited about that approach. Forget that he has an ego, what coach doesn't. Forget that he practices in full pads more often than not, that's how you change the culture. And forget that he doesn't answer questions clearly, most coaches don't. All I care about is that somebody with experince is trying to build a consistant winner and I have a feeling in a few years fans will be very happy with where we are. If not, let him go and bring in somebody else but at least after a few years Mangini will have this team stable and back in order. I think 2007 gave fans the wrong idea about what this team has been. Its been filled with bad players since 1999 and if it weren't for DA, Braylon, Jamal, and KII playing out of their minds in 07, we were a 4-12 team that year also. The talent isn't here, give the guy a few years to fix it. If not then, throw him out.
If you buy into the notion that Mangini's main task this season was to strategically disassemble the team, then while he's certainly done the next coach a favor, I'm not sure he's done much to move the team forward in such a way that a new coach would find himself in a major strategic disadvantage as a result.
The new coach may have chosen to disassemble one part of the team instead of another, but with this team the "strategic disassemble" was more or less across the board.
For what it's worth Florio at NBC's PFT says he's hearing that a change at Head Coach is in the cards
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/...ng-a-hire-soon/
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things don't change in a single season, the man knows what he's doing.
I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
Joe,
You really need to stop reading PFT. Seriously, dude. Half the sh*t you're spouting here is verbatim from that muck, including your "Raiders East" shout-out.
Fact: Mangini has salvaged our impending salary cap issues
Fact: Mangini has compiled eleven draft picks for April
Fact: Mangini's team is one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, a marked improvement from last year's Browns
Fact: Braylon Edwards has not improved since moving to New York
Fact: The 1-10 Browns did not quit when down 20 to a very good SD team Sunday
Fact: Several players testified to the media that Mangini's practices were just as short as Crennel's practices and not as hard
Fact: Personnel decisions such as the additions of Roth, Stuckey, and Trusnik.
Fact: Personnel decisions such as the removal of me-first guys Shaun Smith, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow.
Fact: Mangini has an offense with young players at the core (Quinn, Thomas, Harrison, Robiskie, Stuckey, Massaquoi, Mack), four of whom he added just this year
Fact: A consistent approach from week to week that is paying off with the team's level of competitiveness despite a terrible record
And here's my two cents: STFU about free agents not coming here already. When the hell have the Cleveland Browns EVER brought in the best free agents? Anybody remotely good either gets hurt (Bentley, Joe J), is a selfish overpaid POS (Rison), or runs people down with their SUV (Stallworth). I've got a news flash for ya JoeSixPat: We don't give a FU*K about free agency. It's all about the draft and you should know that already.
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I'm really surprised that people can objectively look at how he handled the QB situation, the draft (he got rooked giving up #5... other teams traded back much further behind in the first round and got much much more than Mangini did at #5) interpersonal issues with players (Lewis, who thrives on hard work thinks Mangini needlessly overworks the team... that's saying something) poor personnel decisions (Kokinis, Erin whathername, Daboll)
In short he's taken a bad team and turned them into the Raiders East... with Lerner apparently willing to make the same mistake again, potentially limiting GM choices only to those who will agree to keep Mangini on as HC... now going even further potentially naming an OC (overriding Mangini's vote of confidence in Daboll) before naming a GM.
None of this is sound football mangagement. The blind squirrel could find a nut but that's not how you run an organization.
Take any of those issues and delve further - like Mangini letting the QB competition go far too long, but saying that once he made his choice his chosen QB would be given the support and confidence to do well.
That lasted 2.5 games. Do you think players don't notice when their coach breaks his own word so easilly? If he does it to the QB what chance do they have to be treated honestly or fairly. All of the above factors into whether the best free agents would be willing to play for a team. And while overpaying players can help, that limits the number of quality free agents you can retain - and as the Raiders have shown, some players wouldn't play for them for all the money in the world.
I'm not understanding how all of this shows that Mangini has the team on the right track.
Joe,
You really need to stop reading PFT. Seriously, dude. Half the sh*t you're spouting here is verbatim from that muck, including your "Raiders East" shout-out.
Fact: Mangini has salvaged our impending salary cap issues
Fact: Mangini has compiled eleven draft picks for April
Fact: Mangini's team is one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, a marked improvement from last year's Browns
Fact: Braylon Edwards has not improved since moving to New York
Fact: The 1-10 Browns did not quit when down 20 to a very good SD team Sunday
Fact: Several players testified to the media that Mangini's practices were just as short as Crennel's practices and not as hard
Fact: Personnel decisions such as the additions of Roth, Stuckey, and Trusnik.
Fact: Personnel decisions such as the removal of me-first guys Shaun Smith, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow.
Fact: Mangini has an offense with young players at the core (Quinn, Thomas, Harrison, Robiskie, Stuckey, Massaquoi, Mack), four of whom he added just this year
Fact: A consistent approach from week to week that is paying off with the team's level of competitiveness despite a terrible record
And here's my two cents: STFU about free agents not coming here already. When the hell have the Cleveland Browns EVER brought in the best free agents? Anybody remotely good either gets hurt (Bentley, Joe J), is a selfish overpaid POS (Rison), or runs people down with their SUV (Stallworth). I've got a news flash for ya JoeSixPat: We don't give a FU*K about free agency. It's all about the draft and you should know that already.
Joe,
You really need to stop reading PFT. Seriously, dude. Half the sh*t you're spouting here is verbatim from that muck, including your "Raiders East" shout-out.
Fact: Mangini has salvaged our impending salary cap issues
Fact: Mangini has compiled eleven draft picks for April
Fact: Mangini's team is one of the least penalized teams in the NFL, a marked improvement from last year's Browns
Fact: Braylon Edwards has not improved since moving to New York
Fact: The 1-10 Browns did not quit when down 20 to a very good SD team Sunday
Fact: Several players testified to the media that Mangini's practices were just as short as Crennel's practices and not as hard
Fact: Personnel decisions such as the additions of Roth, Stuckey, and Trusnik.
Fact: Personnel decisions such as the removal of me-first guys Shaun Smith, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow.
Fact: Mangini has an offense with young players at the core (Quinn, Thomas, Harrison, Robiskie, Stuckey, Massaquoi, Mack), four of whom he added just this year
Fact: A consistent approach from week to week that is paying off with the team's level of competitiveness despite a terrible record
And here's my two cents: STFU about free agents not coming here already. When the hell have the Cleveland Browns EVER brought in the best free agents? Anybody remotely good either gets hurt (Bentley, Joe J), is a selfish overpaid POS (Rison), or runs people down with their SUV (Stallworth). I've got a news flash for ya JoeSixPat: We don't give a FU*K about free agency. It's all about the draft and you should know that already.
Yes - I've seen that lots of Cleveland fans seem to think you can ignore free agency and build a team through the draft. And I agree, over about 5-7 years you can do that if you draft very very well, since many players need a few years to develop. Which is why most teams recognize the need to do both.
Free agents don't want to play for the Raiders either. Has that hurt them? I guess most Cleveland fans would say "Hell no". I'd disagree.
I'm never sure what people mean by the fact that someone has "solved the salary cap" problem. By definition no team can exceed the salary cap. Their alternative is to cut expensive players, trying to keep as many of the good ones as possible. That's not rocket science. Did Cleveland fans expect that Mangini would exceed the salary cap? What are you actually giving him credit for? I could cut players too if forced to - that doesn't make me a good coach.
With Cleveland one needs to be wary of celebrating the fact that a mediocre player was drafted or signed and displaced a very bad veteran. All these guys are good, no doubt... good enough to win one game against the Bills by a score of 6-3 at last count. I'm not saying they can't improve - but the evidence we've seen is that they are what their record says they are, as Bill Parcells used to say... and for all the coaching decisions, schemes, playcaling, drafting and free agent moves, Mangini has inspired this team to win a grand total of one game.
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