ESPN's John Clayton Reporting Holmgren Will Fire Mangini

[DawgTracker]

@wilsonthevolleyball said:

This is hilarious with all the sudden Mangini love. The guy beat the Steelers once and he's the hero of Cleveland. All this talk about "progress" is hilarious. I recall RAC making huge progress with the 2007 Browns...

Sorry to say, but I thought Browns fans were smarter than this. You guys are the football center of the United States and a class A town. To be satisfied with Mangini is to be satisfied with mediocrity at best. Cleveland deserves better, IMO.

Nobody has said they are satisfied with what Mangini has produced so far. But, this team is more disciplined and playing better than previously. The roster has quite a few decent players on it but very few studs. Give him more studs and I think this team will beat some people up, year after year

[JoeSixPat]

@chip-banks said:

Great point. Anyone who heard Opie's completely unprofessional rant and near personal attack on Winslow that he made on a morning radio talk show during Staphgate would know that he didn't have the maturity to hold office in a middle school student council. That was honestly one of the most embarrassing things I've ever heard.

I can't imagine Holmgren will take issue with Mangini's moves to get rid of Winslow or Edwards. Even with such talented players coaches and fans alike recognize that some guys are distractions at best and cancers at worst and need to go.

Perhaps a more savvy Coach/GM would have covered up the discontent to maximize trade value but I think everyone in the NFL knew the Browns were not in a position of power when it came to getting maximum value for these guys.

I do think Holmgren will be looking at how Mangini has conducted himself in general from Day One and will be asking himself tough questions about whether Holmgren wants to put his reputation in Mangini's hands. Would Holmgren be proud of the handling of the Mural issue if it happened on his watch (and why can no one seem to find the "new more visible location" of the mural today?) Would Holmgren be proud of the way Mangini got off on the wrong foot with a key player like Shaun Rogers? The handling of Bus-Gate? The handling of marathon practices? The way the former PR Intern has handled the media? Would Holmgren think that bodes well for him placing his trust and reputation in Mangini's hands?

And that's before even considering if Mangini is the right coach to implement Holmgren's West Coast offense and need for a strong defense (that needs to limit a team like the Chiefs to less than 34 points)

I predict a new head coach once the season is over. I predict it will be a head coach with experience in the WC Offense because Holmgren views that as a key foundation for success - a WC Offensive Coordinator alone will not be good enough for Holmgren.

He's already set the stage for this move by stating that the tough but right choices are not always fair, invoking Parcells successful strategy of parting ways with a head coach after just one season.

[Earl34]

@joesixpat said:

I can't imagine Holmgren will take issue with Mangini's moves to get rid of Winslow or Edwards. Even with such talented players coaches and fans alike recognize that some guys are distractions at best and cancers at worst and need to go.

Perhaps a more savvy Coach/GM would have covered up the discontent to maximize trade value but I think everyone in the NFL knew the Browns were not in a position of power when it came to getting maximum value for these guys.

I do think Holmgren will be looking at how Mangini has conducted himself in general from Day One and will be asking himself tough questions about whether Holmgren wants to put his reputation in Mangini's hands. Would Holmgren be proud of the handling of the Mural issue if it happened on his watch (and why can no one seem to find the "new more visible location" of the mural today?) Would Holmgren be proud of the way Mangini got off on the wrong foot with a key player like Shaun Rogers? The handling of Bus-Gate? The handling of marathon practices? The way the former PR Intern has handled the media? Would Holmgren think that bodes well for him placing his trust and reputation in Mangini's hands?

And that's before even considering if Mangini is the right coach to implement Holmgren's West Coast offense and need for a strong defense (that needs to limit a team like the Chiefs to less than 34 points)

I predict a new head coach once the season is over. I predict it will be a head coach with experience in the WC Offense because Holmgren views that as a key foundation for success - a WC Offensive Coordinator alone will not be good enough for Holmgren.

He's already set the stage for this move by stating that the tough but right choices are not always fair, invoking Parcells successful strategy of parting ways with a head coach after just one season.

I don't see how Mike Holmgren's reputation is tied in to how Eric Mangini behaves. They're separate people and their reputation is more likely determined by how they conduct themselves in light of the other's behavior.

Your issues with Mangini are tired as is your anti-Mangini agenda. Shaun Rogers bought into Eric Mangini's program. The coach made that happen. Marathon practices? No more so than any other coach and that comes from multiple sources. The former PR intern has handled the media the same as the Pats do. I don't see you crying about them.

[Chip Banks]

@kshutchins said:

And you base this on what? I'm not disagreeing with you here; I really want to know why you say that. What makes you sure they can't work together? What is different about their philosophies? Please articulate them for me.

Holmgren is a Walsh disciple -- a WCO guy. He believes in the WCO. And he is an offensive-minded coach.

Mangini is from the Parcells Belichick tree of coaching. To a man, they believe in the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system. Mangini is a defensive minded coach who is most cut out of the Belichick mold. Whatever tension there is between them now, it's obvious to anyone that Mangini is still trying to emulate Belichick.

The traditional Erhardt-Perkins offensive system wants a smash mouth running game. Pittsburgh and New England now run an "Air Erhardt" style offense, with a heavier pass to run balance. That actually incorporates some WCO and some Air Coryell principles. Erhardt-Perkins is a more malliable offense, so you see a blending to fit the strengths of QBs like Rothlisberger and Brady. Looking at what Mangini was building in NY, he seems to favor the traditional Parcells Erhardt-Perkins "run to win" offense. Power blocking schemes. More like the traditional Steelers teams and the early Weis/Brady/Bledsoe Pats. This is a dream of most defensive-minded coaches.

A pure WCO is much more scheme-oriented. Short passes replace runs. The QB moves on designed roll outs and boot legs and you need quicker, more athletic offensive linemen. It is a quintesentially horizontal offense.

At the heart of their philosophies, the WCO of Holmgren/Reid and the base Erhardt-Perkins run to win offense (which we've leaned more heavily on with each passing week as Carl Smith has had an influence on the game planning) are near opposites.

Parcells, the father of the Belichick tree, was one of the most critical of the WCO.

The Holmgren tree is full of offensive-minded coaches. Parcells/Belichick defensive.

I'm not saying that Mangini and Holmgren can't co-exist. In some world it's possible that they could. But Mangini is not the optimal steward of a WCO/4-3 team and if Holmgren has the Browns continue course under Mangini, he'll be overseeing philosophies that, at their core, he does not believe in. That's just a tough fit. And with 11 draft choices and a year in which the Browns should be positioned for free agency, it seems to me that we have to chose a philosophy now. A wait-and-see approach will completely nullify the timing of Holmgren's hire. Hiring someone who believes in the Parcells way at the top of the organization would have seemed to fit better with Mangini going forward.

The Weis rumor is really interesting, though. It would mean that Holmgren is leaning toward a continuation of the philosophies that Mangini started. If that's the case, he has to stick to his guns come hell or high water -- like a 5-11 season in 2010. That's a tough investment of trust for a guy that you didn't choose and philosophies that you don't necessarily ascribe to if you are Holmgren.

We'll know best in about 3 weeks.

[Kosar_For_President]

Wait a minute, I just woke up from drinking till 4 am. We hired Holmgren?

[Riffer X]

This is the best thread the board has had in a long time, thanks a bunch for all the great observations and opinions.

I'm a Mangie guy, I liked him when we hired him and thought he got the shaft in NY given the success he had there and Favre's injury blemishing last season's fast start. I also liked the fact he admitted to learning a ton there from his first season. That is huge to me. For one, it shows some humility that most people think he lacks and two, it bypasses the Belichick dilemma. There were guys like me (not many) who saw the brilliance in BB but couldn't stand a lot of his issues---ie crapping on and lying to vets and the total dbag treatment to fans, media and even some within the organization. Modell gave him total autonomy and he and his ego ran with it because he wasn't ready, sorta like Savage. Hell, I still don't think Belichick is all he's cracked up to be and he may be running his course in NE before too long. Vets tend to get sick of his act after awhile.

I don't see Mangie as this way. What I see is a guy that obviously knows the game and what it takes to win. He's a steadfast student of the game and has firm beliefs in the style, culture and type of player he wants (see Matt Roth and the former Jets). He is a system guy that knows it takes a few playmakers to win consistently, however, he also knows that depth and player compatibility within the system is most important. The discipline he has instituted cannot be overlooked, and most of that correlates directly to his type of players and coaching. He wants guys that have character and brains first and foremost, because those types tend to buy into a system and have accountability. He also does not play favorites, as evidenced by his tough treatment of Robo and Veikune among others.

He has made mistakes to be sure, but the sum of the product that we began with from Camp RAC 'n ROLLS--PHILLIP is already vastly different. There is no way this team in the current situation would be playing at the level they are now and giving the same effort under Grimace. The reason for this is these guys respect what is going on and know their jobs are on the line week in and week out, which totally dismisses all the media bias toward Mangie. I think the guy is much more of a player's coach than people think, but the player needs to be more Alex Mack than Braylon Edwards if you get my drift.

I thought it was stupid for how he trusted Jax to not snag Don Carey, how he stuck with Lewis out of blind loyalty, messed around with Quinn and allowed Deyballs to call HS wing T type play calling for much of the season. I do however, believe there was a method to his madness and he did this figuring on having the time needed to gut this and do it the right way by instilling a whole new attitude and philosophy. Perfect example is how he ran camp. Sure, BQ should have been named the starter and got the reps, but people forget it wasn't just QB that he made compete. Everybody was competing, from Glue Hands Hubbard getting number one reps to Sexy Rexy playing all over the line along with the others. This camp was open competition and a direct example of the players being told the way it was. Mangie did this full well knowing there would be no continuity for a big part of the season but it was more important to establish an identity and culture of what he and his coaches expected. Make no mistake, the players have bought in and not just because they have to, he has sold them.

People keep trying to figure out why Robo was getting snubbed and can't find a reason. It could be his three drop camp day and subsequent relegation to special teams where he didn't exactly tear it up, but I offer another solution: How about the fact Robo is a local kid he drafted probably higher than he should have and the kid came from spoiled coach kid pedigree. We all know the kid is smart and can play from watching him at OSU, but perhaps he was a perfect example of what will happen to you regardless of your stock. All this stuff ties together and I gotta believe some of this same type of thing is being used on Veikune and Hall. Don't think those guys can't play, not yet. All we have to do is look to Pitt over the years to see countless examples (including Roid Monk) of guys who needed to react before thinking.

Given time, I think Mangie and his system will work, hence I don't want him gone. But, the hiring of Homes just doesn't mesh with what is going on here. I like Homes as a football guy and he is a class act, but the compatibility factor is huge here. It reeks of another mistake by Lerner but that is without knowing what Homes and his ultimate goals/actions will be. Perhaps there is an agreement in place that he will be more of an administrator type than hands on football guy instituting his own systems and player profiles. If that is the case, I gotta believe Mangie stays without the Napoleon complex. I think they can coexist but there still has to be a common and overlying philosophy that both feel comfortable with. Mangie has already done the hard foundation part, and if we go changing that all out again it's going to be even uglier IMO.

First off, we are seeing a semblance of some power football as an identity and now we're talking about the WCO here? You may as well start totally from scratch. One thing I do know for a fact is that anybody who comes in is going to clean house, it's just how these guys role--any of them. They will take a player that is slightly less in talent and productivity just because it's their guy based on perceived potential. I don't want to go through this again.

I don't know how this is going to pan out but letting Mangie go just seems to me like a major step backwards and once again being the wrong decision from ownership on down. I'm kind of excited about this team right now and the prospects for the future. I think there could be a huge turnaround next year, albeit I do believe Mangie needs reined in somewhat. It should not be the head coach's job to determine wallpaper, media statement policies and uniform sequences among other things. He should continue handling his staff, the players and the scheming while working together with a solid draft guru that agrees in principle with the ultimate goal and player philosophies. I have serious doubts this will happen but here's to hoping........

[Sony Reed]

@alo said:

A year ago, we were talking about how the Savage-Crennel experiment failed because there was a disconnect between the players brought in and the ones desired by the head coach.

Now, people here think it'd be desirable to have Holmgren and/or his chosen GM drafting 3-4 personnel for Mangini, something they've likely got little experience doing. Similarly, Mangini would be asked to oversee a WCO or, like Crennel, give up all of his authority on the offensive side of the ball.

Do we really want to go back to the Crennel-Savage situation? Are you all confident that Mangini and Holmgren both are great & magnanimous football guys, to the point that they can make a management structure that screwed up the previous regime work?

It seems like we're unlearning the lessons of 2005-2008. And I'm not sure we should expect Holmgren to wipe clean his memory bank as well: he's already said that the existence of factions in Seattle - people who were already there before him vs. people he brought in - affected the quality of his 1999 draft class.

I'm not sure he'll want to repeat that by having his OC calling for WCO playmakers, while Mangini is screaming that a certain player is a perfect fit for a defensive scheme Holmgren isn't intimately familiar with. Absent some luck, which the Browns haven't had much of as of late, that seems like a recipe for disaster.

Alo, I agree 100% what you are saying, what I don't understand is people talking about keeping Mangini as though they forgot the first 12 games of the season when we did not look like a NFL team on offense, then we beat the Steelers in terrible conditions and a terrible Chiefs team and now we should give Mangini another season I just don't get. I seem to think with the pressure off to win its alot easier to win past 2 games and also we beat a Steelers team that lost to the Chiefs, Raiders and Bears...this is not a good Steeler team and a Chiefs team we needed 2 Cribbs returns for TD's or we lose.

You make a great point about Holmgren and Mangini being totally different, if you wanted things to remain the same with Mangini, then why hire Holmgren?

I would like to see Holmgren clean house with everything associated with the losing culture and bring in his own people and finally we will have a offense to be excited about since Chuds 1 good year.

How is Holmgren going to be able to get players for a guy like Mangini who does not run a WCO or 4-3 defense both things that Holmgren is most experienced with. I just don't see the 2 working together as a good match

[Sony Reed]

@flugel said:

Very good points!

IMO, the difference between Parcells taking over 1-15 vrs Holmgren taking over this team is in the response the Head Coach is getting from his players as the season went from halfway point toward the end. There's improvement, momentum, a winning streak and we even beat Pittsburgh for the first time in the last 13 tries. Not only that, but we did all this after some key players were injured and/or traded even in spite of some shakey QBing. If the 2nd half of the season went like the first half of the season - I think Holmgren would arrive at the same no-brainer Parcells arrived with changing Head Coaches. Alo, I'm actually enjoying what I'm seeing from this team.

Do you want to know what has never waivered this year? Discipline in the form of how infrequently we're penalized. It's so much better than recent years where it felt like it was always either first 1st and 15 or 1st and 20. Not only that but I don't think I've ever seen out punt teams pinning opponents inside their 10 yard line as much as I have seen this year. We've done that most recently without Dave Zastudil. If that's not enough, our return game is second to none.

I can't even begin to tell you HOW MUCH a young player like Rubin has improved from last year to this year. He used to stand straight up at the snap and lose position. NOW he's playing with great leverage and doing a nice job on the nose. That's coaching. How about backups stepping or guys playing new positions while we don't see any dropoff?

I've been impressed at what Mangini has done with the deck he was dealt. It's easy to forget we only had 5 draft picks in 2008 and we were only slated for 4 draft picks in 2009. If you look at how many 2008 starters we have starting at this time on offense here you go:

1. Joe Thomas

2. Eric Steinbach

3. Lawrence Vickers

If we look at 2008 starts on defense starting now - here you be:

1. Wimbley

2. Williams

3. Wright

4. McDonald

Out of 22 starters from 2008, there's only a continuity sum of 7 remaining today. Just when you think it couldn't get even more bizaare, our starting place kicker and punter were/are out for extended periods.

Speaking of good scouts, I'm looking forward to reading all your goodies about the top prospects from now until the draft. You spoiled us last year with countless video clips and informative articles. There won't be a shortage of things to talk about now that we're already into the Bowl Season.

- Tom F.

Flugels, Here is where I disagree with you, You say you like the way the team is playing for Mangini, did you ever think that some of these guys are playing for jobs next year with the Browns and for other NFL teams to get a look at them

There is no pressure on this team to win we have been out of the playoff picture so long ago its much easier to play/win when there is no pressure to win

You speak of Mangini and the draft choices he got us, Tom our draft STUNK, we traded out of the #5 spot bypassed numerous playmakers such as Harvin, Maclin, Clay Mathews ect who could have helped this year while we selected a Center, I don't think you ever select a center in the 1st round, Veikune has not got on the field, Robiske has been a BUST he has done nothing, looking at the draft Tom what did we get that makes you so excited? MoMass and Mack?

Tom there were guys late in the season who only saw the field because of injuries, Moore the tight end only was promoted from the practice squad because of injuries, same with Bernard and a few other players, otherwise we would have seen more of tiptoe Jamal at running back, and Royal at tight end, Mangini never gave these young guys a chance because he wanted to, he only played them because of injuries

You talk of the 11 draft picks this year, most of the 11 draft choices are 5th and 6th round picks, so how many contributions do you really expect us to get? you seem to think Mangini got us all these extra picks where we can net top prospects whereas we got a bunch of 5th and 6th round picks.

On defense we still can't stop the run, we still can't stop the pass

People say I don't want to tear it down and start over again....Tell me what are we tearing down and starting over?

Do you call wins agains a bad Steeler team, and wins against the Chiefs and maybe a bad Raider team and that win against the Bills progress by Mangini or has he likes to sell people its a process have you forgot its a 16 game season and for the first 12 games we STUNK and tell me what team have we defeated with a winning record?

Do you realize our starting QB (Quinn) until he was injured has won 2 NFL games as a starter and not throw for over 100 yards in each of his 2 victories

Lets hope Holmgren comes and builds this team the correct way because we don't have anything to tear down and start over.

[Chicopee John]

@sony-reed said:

How is Holmgren going to be able to get players for a guy like Mangini who does not run a WCO or 4-3 defense both things that Holmgren is most experienced with. I just don't see the 2 working together as a good match

Don't worry. Mangini is history and the Browns will be a LOT better off for the change.

[rich4eagle]

@sony-reed said:

Flugels, Here is where I disagree with you, You say you like the way the team is playing for Mangini, did you ever think that some of these guys are playing for jobs next year with the Browns and for other NFL teams to get a look at them

There is no pressure on this team to win we have been out of the playoff picture so long ago its much easier to play/win when there is no pressure to win

You speak of Mangini and the draft choices he got us, Tom our draft STUNK, we traded out of the #5 spot bypassed numerous playmakers such as Harvin, Maclin, Clay Mathews ect who could have helped this year while we selected a Center, I don't think you ever select a center in the 1st round, Veikune has not got on the field, Robiske has been a BUST he has done nothing, looking at the draft Tom what did we get that makes you so excited? MoMass and Mack?

Tom there were guys late in the season who only saw the field because of injuries, Moore the tight end only was promoted from the practice squad because of injuries, same with Bernard and a few other players, otherwise we would have seen more of tiptoe Jamal at running back, and Royal at tight end, Mangini never gave these young guys a chance because he wanted to, he only played them because of injuries

You talk of the 11 draft picks this year, most of the 11 draft choices are 5th and 6th round picks, so how many contributions do you really expect us to get? you seem to think Mangini got us all these extra picks where we can net top prospects whereas we got a bunch of 5th and 6th round picks.

On defense we still can't stop the run, we still can't stop the pass

People say I don't want to tear it down and start over again....Tell me what are we tearing down and starting over?

Do you call wins agains a bad Steeler team, and wins against the Chiefs and maybe a bad Raider team and that win against the Bills progress by Mangini or has he likes to sell people its a process have you forgot its a 16 game season and for the first 12 games we STUNK and tell me what team have we defeated with a winning record?

Do you realize our starting QB (Quinn) until he was injured has won 2 NFL games as a starter and not throw for over 100 yards in each of his 2 victories

Lets hope Holmgren comes and builds this team the correct way because we don't have anything to tear down and start over.

Sony good to here from you. Please call because I lost your phone number in my accident. I liked some of your post. Yes in toto the Browns stink. That is mostly remnants of Savage. Not sure if Mangini sucks or has potential, he inherited the biggest mismanagement I have ever seen in football in Savage. yet Savage was saluted for three years as really really building the team. I got hammered on three sites for wanting him gone three months into his debacle. Our guy, the monitors Riffer, was adulating how great Savage was.

The "In Savage WE Trust" flag was flying high while I called him Sewage which he was

I lilke the idea of not having players who are 35 and with a 100 pounds of blubber or head cases..............Mangini and worked some of those issues

The biggest issue I have with what you just said is Quinn.........he stinks and is a loser........and not two long ago you quipped he was better than sliced bread

Are you admitting you blew if big time on Quinn..............I hope so cause he sucks ........anyway, you are still one of the best football guys I know

[Sony Reed]

@rich4eagle said:

Sony good to here from you. Please call because I lost your phone number in my accident. I liked some of your post. Yes in toto the Browns stink. That is mostly remnants of Savage. Not sure if Mangini sucks or has potential, he inherited the biggest mismanagement I have ever seen in football in Savage. yet Savage was saluted for three years as really really building the team. I got hammered on three sites for wanting him gone three months into his debacle. Our guy, the monitors Riffer, was adulating how great Savage was.

The "In Savage WE Trust" flag was flying high while I called him Sewage which he was

I lilke the idea of not having players who are 35 and with a 100 pounds of blubber or head cases..............Mangini and worked some of those issues

The biggest issue I have with what you just said is Quinn.........he stinks and is a loser........and not two long ago you quipped he was better than sliced bread

Are you admitting you blew if big time on Quinn..............I hope so cause he sucks ........anyway, you are still one of the best football guys I know

Merry Christmas Rich, I will contact you

I admit Brady Quinn is not a NFL starting quarterback.......he is terrible

Quinn has won 2 games in his career as a starter and he is yet to throw for 100 yards in each of his 2 victories

I was wrong about Quinn I thought he would be good but after last season I came to admit I was wrong about Quinn, this guy is a loser

Quinn has had 1 good game this season against Detroit, against San Diego he put up some yards in garbage time, he did nothing aginst the Steelers or Chiefs

People must realize the most important thing in the WCO is accuracy by the quarterback and Quinn does not have it

The starting quarterback for the Browns in 2010 is not on the Browns roster today

Rich we have no offensive playmakers and you have people wanting to draft defense again....uh uh uh

Btw, I told you last year Mangini is terrible....Here is the thing with Mangini he can coach but you are not going to win many games with a guy like Mangini

after he is fired by the Browns Mangini will never get another head coaching job in the NFL

[Flugel]

@sony-reed said:

Flugels, Here is where I disagree with you, You say you like the way the team is playing for Mangini, did you ever think that some of these guys are playing for jobs next year with the Browns and for other NFL teams to get a look at them

There is no pressure on this team to win we have been out of the playoff picture so long ago its much easier to play/win when there is no pressure to win

You speak of Mangini and the draft choices he got us, Tom our draft STUNK, we traded out of the #5 spot bypassed numerous playmakers such as Harvin, Maclin, Clay Mathews ect who could have helped this year while we selected a Center, I don't think you ever select a center in the 1st round,

Sony,

Glad to see you posting again. Let me clarify what you've asked for.

1) I enjoy seeing our team being one of the least penalized teams so that beating Pittsburgh was possible much like beating KC became possible just 1 week later. And why? We're not seeing our team in the SAME 1st and 15s and 1st and 20s we saw in 2008, which makes moving the chains a little more consistent and doable.

2) When was the last time you saw our defense sack Pittsburgh's QB 8 times? They played for RYAN, who works for Mangini. From what I've read and heard, the defensive guys ENJOY playing for Ryan. That's one-third of the team.

3) Our STs pinned Pittsburgh deep on countless occasions (just like they did vrs Buffalo) takes more than a COUPLE guys just playing to impress other teams. It takes 11 guys that want to work together and WIN field position or to help Cribbs score. And did I mention, we pinned Pitt and KC deep with a backup punter? It sure looks like our STs guys buy into our STs Coach and they're all on the same page. Sure there's an occasional blunder like the Pontbriand snap that hit Sorenson's elbow and gave KC a TD but our STs made up for it. This is another 3rd of the team.

4) I'm going to disagree about our 2009 draft sucking. When Mangini was hired we were only looking at a sum of 4 draft picks for 2009, which Mangini would double in volume to 8. In the process, we also added some experienced defensive starters and rotation guys from the Jets team that finished 9-7 a year ago. As for the Center thing, in 1993 Bill Belichick drafted a Center out of Michigan named Steve Everitt with our 14th overall pick in round 1. That would mark the only season BB got us to the playoffs in his 5 years with Cleveland. Alex Mack has been playing some pretty good football as of late. If we remember that Andy Reid deemed Hank Fraley too old to start in 2006, addign a promising young Center with upside was long overdue. Other picks that have shown promise this year include: Kaluka Maiava, MoMass, Coye Francies and James Davis. On top of that, undrafted FA Marcus Benard looked like a pretty good rookie to me when Ben wore him like a jersey. I also like the young TE from Stanford - Evan Moore in recent weeks. The RB Jennings wasn't a bad find for the price of a Walmart soda and a bag of chips.

5) Misc: David Bowens was a GREAT addition to our defense. I'm not in the D'Qwell fanclub; so it's refreshing to see a player with GOOD 1st step instinct making plays as an ILBer at the line of scrimmage or behind it. Matt Roth is also a good addition IMO. The local kid Jason Trusnik as well as Chansi Stucky (plus 2 more draft picks for 2010) were good exchange value for a player as unreliable as Braylon Edwards became. Hard to fault Mangini with the QB debacle he inherited. We didn't have the 1st pick for Stafford and Sanchez has alot of people nervous in NY. BECAUSE Quinn never got game reps when he should have - it took THIS year to find out what we should have already known and didn't. We already knew DA"s Cinderella story hit midnight in late October of 2007.

6) When we played Pitt & KC - we only had 3 remaining offensive starters from 2008 (Thomas, Steinbach, Vickers). On the defensive side of the ball we onmly has 4: (Williams, Wright, McDonald, Wimbley). We didn't even have the starting punter right? I'd say our coaching staff aced the challenge.

That's pretty much where I'm at. If they played the second half of the season like they played the first - I'd prolly wouldn't care if Mangini stayed or sprayed. Truth of the matter is, every time he's had a good QB starting for him he's either won 9 games or 11 games as a Head Coach. What if you got your wish for a new head Coach and it was Marty's Morningsickness? It's difficult to tell what you have in a head Coach OR a draft after just 1 season.

- Tom F.

[ballpeen]

Glad to see both Sony and Rich posting.

I agree with Rich in that it is good to see mangini working the head cases off the team and demanding some accountability out of these guys.

If mangini is let go, i don't think it is because of his coaching or plan. To me it will simply be a matter of personality...how Holmgren feels he will be able to work with the guy. Holmgren is going to have some say...a lot to be honest...he doesn't want a coach in there where he is going to have to sell everything he wants to see done, or simply tell the coach this is the way it is going to be. I think he is going to want someone in there who already knows the plan and is already going to do things the Holmgren way.

That doesn't mean the coach can't coach his way or would do things as Holmgren would do, there has to be some individuality, but in the broad picture Holmgren has to feel comfortable with the coach and his methods.

I am not sure Mangini is going to provide that comfort level. So rather than go through a period where friction might occur, it might be best to just remove that possibility from the get go rather than see how it goes for a few years, then have to make a coaching change.

[peterbell]

Firstly, I see a ton of Jets games living on the East Coast and watching the Jets play the previous 3 years, that is CLEARLY Eric Mangini's 3-4 the Browns are running along with the coverages and blitzes..I coached football for 30 years so I have a good understanding of what I'm watching and feel qualified to make this statement.

The Browns have DOUBLED their sack total

Reduced their penalties by more than half.

Mangini had the balls to jettison 2 major pains in the asses and locker room cancers

We now have 11 DRAFT PICKS

The roster is very solid from 23 to 53

Picked up a starter and a beast like Roth and it didn't cost us a dime

Found a diamond in the rough at the TE position

Has made JH a better player by having the balls to bench his ass until he became a "willing blocker"

Wimberly has returned to form under Coach Cox tutorledge.

The defense has given up 8 pts a game to Div rivals 2nd time around (minus 2 starting LBers and nose)

Special teams are one of the best in the league

Utilizing Josh Cribbs everywhere possible

By the way we are playing with a f**king wide receiver in the secondary.

Cutting or releasing 26 "players" from last years roster and 2 are now employed in the NFL.(nice job Savage)

Changing the culture of an ENTIRE NFL franchise from the ground up..(in less then a year by the way)

Clearly has the support of players like Cribbs,Thomas,Wimberly..oh and Jim Brown.

Does Mangini deserve another year..NO QUESTION..Holmgren a smart guy,Mangini's a smart guy, to me

its a great situation for the Browns.

[Chip Banks]

@peterbell said:

Firstly, I see a ton of Jets games living on the East Coast and watching the Jets play the previous 3 years, that is CLEARLY Eric Mangini's 3-4 the Browns are running along with the coverages and blitzes..I coached football for 30 years so I have a good understanding of what I'm watching and feel qualified to make this statement.

The Browns have DOUBLED their sack total

Reduced their penalties by more than half.

Mangini had the balls to jettison 2 major pains in the asses and locker room cancers

We now have 11 DRAFT PICKS

The roster is very solid from 23 to 53

Picked up a starter and a beast like Roth and it didn't cost us a dime

Found a diamond in the rough at the TE position

Has made JH a better player by having the balls to bench his ass until he became a "willing blocker"

Wimberly has returned to form under Coach Cox tutorledge.

The defense has given up 8 pts a game to Div rivals 2nd time around (minus 2 starting LBers and nose)

Special teams are one of the best in the league

Utilizing Josh Cribbs everywhere possible

By the way we are playing with a f**king wide receiver in the secondary.

Cutting or releasing 26 "players" from last years roster and 2 are now employed in the NFL.(nice job Savage)

Changing the culture of an ENTIRE NFL franchise from the ground up..(in less then a year by the way)

Clearly has the support of players like Cribbs,Thomas,Wimberly..oh and Jim Brown.

Does Mangini deserve another year..NO QUESTION..Holmgren a smart guy,Mangini's a smart guy, to me

its a great situation for the Browns.

I've now posted enough that I'm sure you realize that I agree with all the great points made here.

When push comes to shove, I just don't see Holmgren committing to Mangini's schemes and philosophies. And anything short of a commitment in this franchise-defining offseason would be a mistake. Holmgren needs to do the right thing: Define a vision for the Browns that includes a football philosophy and identify complementary people on both the coaching and personnel sides that share a common vision. Then he must stay the course and let it take hold.

I firmly believe that given the chance and given the proper support Mangini would turn this thing around. We're still making too many mistakes in our defense and lack some necessary personnel, but if you can't see the potential in Mangini's disguise defense you just don't know football. We're starting to establish an identity as a cold-weather run-first team. Two weeks in a row, three different guys running the ball. We had our way at the line of scrimmage against KC when everyone knew we were going to run and put up some impressive numbers against the #1 rush defense on a night where you almost didn't have to defend the pass. It has looked so much like the Jets rushing offense that Mangini build in his time at NY that you can't just say they stumbled into it. By the way, did anyone key on Mack last week? There were times he was driving a man 15 yards backwards. There were other times I saw him blow the guy in front of him off the ball and make a block on the second level. In the second half of the season, he's been extremely impressive including superior games against Pitt and Baltimore. This guy will be our best offensive lineman two years from now. But for Tucker's retirement, and perhaps Davis's injury, I think we might have seen this earlier

I think statements like the Browns will be better off without Mangini stem from the lemming-like mentality that has infected Cleveland Sports fans for the last 20 years. That said, I also think that its unrealistic to assume Mangini's job security even if he wins out. I think Mangini will be shown the door even though Holmgren will see that Mangini has done the "right" things almost all the way down the line.

I also think we'll be extremely fortunate to land a new head coach as talented as Mangini and, in any event, his firing and transition to new schemes will set the team's progress back 1-2 years.

[Flugel]

@rich4eagle said:

Sony good to here from you. Please call because I lost your phone number in my accident. I liked some of your post. Yes in toto the Browns stink. That is mostly remnants of Savage. Not sure if Mangini sucks or has potential, he inherited the biggest mismanagement I have ever seen in football in Savage. yet Savage was saluted for three years as really really building the team. I got hammered on three sites for wanting him gone three months into his debacle. Our guy, the monitors Riffer, was adulating how great Savage was.

Rich,

Great points about Savage and Mangini. The THANKS I gave you was for everything but the unnecessary and innaccurate jab at Riffer. It would be nice if you could SHOW the board all the knowledge you have about this team and its history without sucker punching people and then asking why you've worn out your welcome. There's a PART of you that would be great for the board and then there's the old: "hey Ghoolie look at all these idiots that don't know anything" side you'd prefer for some inexplicable reason. Seems to me like you have another chance to come in and show us you are a good person to talk football with. I'd like that - so don't be your own worst enemy. Seems like I've had to tell so many people that ain't the Rich I've met in person at all; but you haven't exactly helped my cred when the reply is "we can only go by what he wants us to see all the time."

All Riffer ever said in his own way was we've already seen countless auditions from DA to know he is NOT the guy. MANY people just wanted to see WHAT Quinn had since we committed a 1st round pick to him. You at least have to PLAY the guy when the alternative is an INT machine with terrible completion percentages and 100 mph touch passes 3-5 yards away. Jack hammering our fans with insults is just misplaced anger guy. Of course we're gonna have a wishful thinking mentality - because the alternative is to hope we suck for an "I told you so?" Are ya kidding me? After meeting you in person and enjoying your company - you've NEVER had to prove yourself to me. Quit being so damn abrasive and LET people enjoy your wisdom.

I know you want people to know you adore BB as you BLASTED every following regime here for drafting a TE or a Center in round 1. Here's the thing: BB drafted Ben Watson in round 1 and Daniel Graham in round 1 only to use Mike Vrabel in the red zone instead. Meanwhile he also drafted Tommy Vardell a FULLBACK with our 13th pick overall only to learn Leroy Hoard's ability never required such draft day absurdity. Speaking of no-no's with TEs - do you remember his meltdown when the Jets drafted the TE he wanted with our first round pick (Kyle Brady)? He knee jerked and drafted Craig Powell with our 1st round pick in the upper half of round 1. And last but not least, who drafted Center Steve Everitt in round 1 with a 14th pick overall? That was BB in 1993. Let's not pretend BB didn't sentence us to football follies by Todd Philcox for far too long in the 90s. I NEVER saw BB's exotic schemes and game plans working in NE when he was starting Drew Bledose. That didn't happen until he learned Tom Brady was much better than a 6th round pick as winless football turned into Superbowl Championship #1 right before America's eyes. It was another Kurt Warner story. Bringing it all back to us: when we had the RIGHT QBs here we won. That's pretty much the mission today. I don't mind us moving on and looking for more than Quinn in the near future. LIKE you, pre-draft I wanted Troy Smith here especially with the understanding he wouldn't be drafted until round 4 (that was the ONLY place you and I disagreed was on draft projection). I STILL would like us to go after Troy Smith.

- Tom F.

[Earl34]

@flugel said:

I NEVER saw BB's exotic schemes and game plans working in NE when he was starting Drew Bledose. That didn't happen until he learned Tom Brady was much better than a 6th round pick as winless football turned into Superbowl Championship #1 right before America's eyes. It was another Kurt Warner story. Bringing it all back to us: when we had the RIGHT QBs here we won. That's pretty much the mssion today. I don't mind us moving on and looking for more than Quinn in the near future.

- Tom F.

Great point Tom. I think that Bill Belichick is entitled to the spoils that go along with discovering what a Tom Brady can do. That said, there was no one on the planet who could have thought him any more than average coming out of Michigan and it took an injury (a hemothorax to be exact) for Brady to see the field. The best evaluators miss sometimes. This happens in football where a player with a resume is in decline but no one will bench him and, when he's out due to injury,....the answer was already underneath their noses.

My thought for next year (regardless of who's coaching) is that Quinn stays, DA goes (he's had more than enough opportunity) and a new QB is brought in just in case the 66-yard per game BQ is the norm and not the exception. Figure they spend a 3rd or 4th round pick unless they REALLY know that Quinn is not the guy.

[Riffer X]

Our guy, the monitors Riffer, was adulating how great Savage was---DJ ICHY ICH

dis is too funny.....da ich be flirtin wit me agin.....often an regular or sumtin

[Flugel]

@earl34 said:

Great point Tom. I think that Bill Belichick is entitled to the spoils that go along with discovering what a Tom Brady can do. That said, there was no one on the planet who could have thought him any more than average coming out of Michigan and it took an injury (a hemothorax to be exact) for Brady to see the field. The best evaluators miss sometimes. This happens in football where a player with a resume is in decline but no one will bench him and, when he's out due to injury,....the answer was already underneath their noses.

My thought for next year (regardless of who's coaching) is that Quinn stays, DA goes (he's had more than enough opportunity) and a new QB is brought in just in case the 66-yard per game BQ is the norm and not the exception. Figure they spend a 3rd or 4th round pick unless they REALLY know that Quinn is not the guy.

FWIW, there's been a TON of fans that told me Vince Young wasn't anywhere near as good of a QB as Jay Cutler. I used to say I can't make a final conclusion when his best #1 WR is Drew Bennett and the other is journeyman Bobby Wade. Forgetting last night for 1 second, VY was 7-1 with the SAME roster Kerry Collins was 0-6 with because he now has talented options such as 1st round pick Kenny Britt, FA Nate Washington and Justin Gage when healthy. Not to mention, VY never started with Chris Johnson as the feature back. All people did was PRETEND VY didn't pull a hammy and injure his knee so they could quickly label him a bad QB. If Drew Brees seperates his passing shoulder - his #1 strength is lost and his performance is sure to slide - see brett Favre's arm at the end of 08. VY was college football's MOST ACCURATE passer in his junior (final) year because of what his legs setup for football's most forgoten attribute (VISION at the speed of the game). He won rookie of the year playing Houdini in overcoming a defense that ranked 30th (minus Haynesworth for stepping on Gurode's face). Now that he has BETTER surroundings on offense - he's 7-2 and sporting much better passing numbers. And guess what MANY of those Jay Cutler fans are asking today? "Who does he have to throw to?" Why couldn't we allow that same question for Vince when it was appropriate?

Relating this scenario to us: I need to see SOME positives I can cling onto for Quinn but I'm coming up empty. I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy about Quinn mainly because he and agent don't want to stay for bargain prices. Another Tom Condon client that will stick his nose up in the air at the thought of a restructured contract for the good of the team. THAT was the type of nonsense that put Couch on my shit list. In reviewing this season, the ONLY game he had me feeling a good vibe was vrs the worst pass defense in pro football. Furthermore, his better throws that day were timing patterns to an area of the field off a 5-7 step drop instead of coming off reads. Earl, some guys never adjust their vision to the speed of the game at the NFL level. Charlie Frye's problem was never accuracy - it was reaction time to what he's seeing downfield. I don't think Quinn is as accurate but he prolly has the stronger arm of the 2 from what I've seen. I can't get the first INT out of my head from last week. KC's DB gave our WR a 15 yard cushion and Quinn overthrew the WR and hit that DB right between the numbers. Jimmy Johnson said the more that kid plays the less value he has in this league.

I know SOME people want more patience with Quinn but while we were trying to assure ourselves Couch was the RIGHT guy for the job - we missed out on the following QBs on our doorstep: Kurt Warner and Tom Brady. Even worse is that NOBODY in our managment researched a guy like McNabb for the 99 draft. I think we also had a chance to draft a QB in that draft Philip Rivers was drafted in because we were trying to assure oiurselves we had the right QB. We have to be careful with this kind of thing. The teams competing for a SB bid include the following QBs: Brett Favre, Philip Rivers, Donovan McNabb, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Tony Romo. Some were instant successes - others took time. I haven't seen any hints from Quinn he's hading in this direction any time soon if I'm being honest.

I'm going to go back to what I felt before our 2007 draft - let's try to get a bargain like Troy Smith who would love to play in the city he grew up in. If a knucklehead like Mike Topmczak can start for 2 different playoff teams - I don't see why or how Troy Smith couldn't do the same but only better. John Harbaugh LOVED his 2008 camp and named him the starter on ESPN radio before Troy got sick with a serious throat infection that kept him out of football for a month and lost him 15-20 pounds.

- Tom F.

[Earl34]

@flugel said:

FWIW, there's been a TON of fans that told me Vince Young wasn't anywhere near as good of a QB as Jay Cutler. I used to say I can't make a final conclusion when his best #1 WR is Drew Bennett and the other is journeyman Bobby Wade. Forgetting last night for 1 second, VY was 7-1 with the SAME roster Kerry Collins was 0-6 with because he now has talented options such as 1st round pick Kenny Britt, FA Nate Washington and Justin Gage when healthy. Not to mention, VY never started with Chris Johnson as the feature back. All people did was PRETEND VY didn't pull a hammy and injure his knee so they could quickly label him a bad QB. If Drew Brees seperates his passing shoulder - his #1 strength is lost and his performance is sure to slide - see brett Favre's arm at the end of 08. VY was college football's MOST ACCURATE passer in his junior (final) year because of what his legs setup for football's most forgoten attribute (VISION at the speed of the game). He won rookie of the year playing Houdini in overcoming a defense that ranked 30th (minus Haynesworth for stepping on Gurode's face). Now that he has BETTER surroundings on offense - he's 7-2 and sporting much better passing numbers. And guess what MANY of those Jay Cutler fans are asking today? "Who does he have to throw to?" Why couldn't we allow that same question for Vince when it was appropriate?

Relating this scenario to us: I need to see SOME positives I can cling onto for Quinn but I'm coming up empty. I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy about Quinn mainly because he and agent don't want to stay for bargain prices. Another Tom Condon client that will stick his nose up in the air at the thought of a restructured contract for the good of the team. THAT was the type of nonsense that put Couch on my shit list. In reviewing this season, the ONLY game he had me feeling a good vibe was vrs the worst pass defense in pro football. Furthermore, his better throws that day were timing patterns to an area of the field off a 5-7 step drop instead of coming off reads. Earl, some guys never adjust their vision to the speed of the game at the NFL level. Charlie Frye's problem was never accuracy - it was reaction time to what he's seeing downfield. I don't think Quinn is as accurate but he prolly has the stronger arm of the 2 from what I've seen. I can't get the first INT out of my head from last week. KC's DB gave our WR a 15 yard cushion and Quinn overthrew the WR and hit that DB right between the numbers. Jimmy Johnson said the more that kid plays the less value he has in this league.

I know SOME people want more patience with Quinn but while we were trying to assure ourselves Couch was the RIGHT guy for the job - we missed out on the following QBs on our doorstep: Kurt Warner and Tom Brady. Even worse is that NOBODY in our managment researched a guy like McNabb for the 99 draft. I think we also had a chance to draft a QB in that draft Philip Rivers was drafted in because we were trying to assure oiurselves we had the right QB. We have to be careful with this kind of thing. The teams competing for a SB bid include the following QBs: Brett Favre, Philip Rivers, Donovan McNabb, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Tony Romo. Some were instant successes - others took time. I haven't seen any hints from Quinn he's hading in this direction any time soon if I'm being honest.

I'm going to go back to what I felt before our 2007 draft - let's try to get a bargain like Troy Smith who would love to play in the city he grew up in. If a knucklehead like Mike Topmczak can start for 2 different playoff teams - I don't see why or how Troy Smith couldn't do the same but only better. John Harbaugh LOVED his 2008 camp and named him the starter on ESPN radio before Troy got sick with a serious throat infection that kept him out of football for a month and lost him 15-20 pounds.

- Tom F.

Tom, I think you've done a nice analysis here. I think that when it comes to Vince Young, the guy just wins games. I think that people love to try and punch holes in his game but the bottom line is that the guy plays fast and can "see at the speed of the game". Vince's problem is going to be his contract next year which has many people wondering if they'll cut him.

I think that your sentence above about the SB contending QBs harkens me back to one debate I've had with my best friend for many years about QBs. I think that the QB position is one of those where we look at the forest and miss it through the trees. For instance, some guys are no-brainers in that they steal money (see Akili Smith). Others are no-brainers because they are so good (see Peyton Manning). The problem is these "tweener" guys. I can't really lump them into one group. NFL level QB play involves being able to make reads (pre-snap and post), understanding where your guys need to be, anticipating the window and then the physical part of throwing it with the right combination of touch and strength. There is also the leadership/lockerroom/gameplan component. I think that teams (like my friend's Dolphins) spend years trying to convince themselves that a marginal QB is good enough whereas they miss the point that if that guy is "good enough" he might just be "8-8 or 9-7" good. That was Jay Fiedler. Jay Fiedler did some things good and some things poorly. At the end of the day, however, he was not about to take a team deep into the playoffs. How long does taking a "project" QB to mature take? It seems like you can miss only once and by that point, the guy(s) who drafted him are gone. Furthermore, I think that when a QB is in year 3 and 4, there are some things that just should not be an issue.

Of course, there are applications of this with respect to the Browns' QB situation but threads on that topic abound.