MH must decide if BQ is worth the time
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I'm kinda disappointed by the dodge.
"Sure I could take this guy and turn him into an all pro Quarterback, save the organization millions and get to the playoffs a year sooner, but gee whiz, I'm not coaching anymore."
No, Mike, not technically but you are in charge of every goddam thing that happens in Ohio colored orange and brown.
You sound a little like those security guards whose job decription didn't specifically state "protect little kids from being beaten."
WSS
I'm kinda disappointed by the dodge.
"Sure I could take this guy and turn him into an all pro Quarterback, save the organization millions and get to the playoffs a year sooner, but gee whiz, I'm not coaching anymore."
No, Mike, not technically but you are in charge of every goddam thing that happens in Ohio colored orange and brown.
You sound a little like those security guards whose job decription didn't specifically state "protect little kids from being beaten."
WSS
imo, you're drawing the wrong conclusion. mh seems like, coming in the door, he wanted to give mangini and his staff the opportunity to sort it out on their own. who knows, it could've even been a test to see if they would humble themselves and ask someone who knows instead of letting pride get in the way.
there's nothing wrong with mh not being a dictator. he said he's not going to be the coach, but if someone asks for his help, he'll more than gladly give it. i like mh's approach to things and have no problem with it. maybe he just wanted to give guys a fair shot to do it on their own at first. i don't see him sitting back and doing nothing if things go wrong. then ofcourse, there's this quote:
Holmgren said Head Coach Eric Mangini has asked him to get heavily involved with quarterbacks. Mangini didn’t have to ask twice.
sounds like mh got an open invitation. you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
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I'm kinda disappointed by the dodge.
"Sure I could take this guy and turn him into an all pro Quarterback, save the organization millions and get to the playoffs a year sooner, but gee whiz, I'm not coaching anymore."
No, Mike, not technically but you are in charge of every goddam thing that happens in Ohio colored orange and brown.
You sound a little like those security guards whose job decription didn't specifically state "protect little kids from being beaten."
WSS
imo, you're drawing the wrong conclusion. mh seems like, coming in the door, he wanted to give mangini and his staff the opportunity to sort it out on their own. who knows, it could've even been a test to see if they would humble themselves and ask someone who knows instead of letting pride get in the way.
there's nothing wrong with mh not being a dictator. he said he's not going to be the coach, but if someone asks for his help, he'll more than gladly give it. i like mh's approach to things and have no problem with it. maybe he just wanted to give guys a fair shot to do it on their own at first. i don't see him sitting back and doing nothing if things go wrong. then ofcourse, there's this quote:
Holmgren said Head Coach Eric Mangini has asked him to get heavily involved with quarterbacks. Mangini didn’t have to ask twice.
sounds like mh got an open invitation. you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
imo, you're drawing the wrong conclusion. mh seems like, coming in the door, he wanted to give mangini and his staff the opportunity to sort it out on their own. who knows, it could've even been a test to see if they would humble themselves and ask someone who knows instead of letting pride get in the way.
there's nothing wrong with mh not being a dictator. he said he's not going to be the coach, but if someone asks for his help, he'll more than gladly give it. i like mh's approach to things and have no problem with it. maybe he just wanted to give guys a fair shot to do it on their own at first. i don't see him sitting back and doing nothing if things go wrong. then ofcourse, there's this quote:
sounds like mh got an open invitation. you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
?
no offense but it sounds a bit like you're thinking out loud here S_J.
i get what Steve is saying and i don't think it's about to/not to micro-manage Mangini and his staff at all. the guy specializes in quarterbacks and the most relevant pass-heavy offenses in the NFL for decades, and is admittedly a little bit arrogant about his success with it. says "he can improve anybody"...but he's not coaching.
as Holmgren himself stated it's his job to get the coach the guys he needs to succeed, and Mangini's job to coach them.
he was asked to focus on that specific aspect of the team by the head coach, but when asked about his evaluation he reverts to coach-speak because it's only been 12 NFL starts with several other appearances, countless hours of practice tape and a 10 year body of work to assess.
this kinda reads--don't ask again on the 31st start, i said 32nd!
this move buys some time and shows me he understands the importance of Quinn's role with the team to some of the fans.
you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
well i hope so since he was specifically asked and if he didn't he would not be doing his job. our success depends heavily on BOTH (all) of them working together closely.
btw Mangini's audition is over, he doesn't have to prove anything to MH now. he was asked for help, and with an 800 million dollar franchise hanging in the balance he better not be imposing a sink or swim mentality (!). he's the guy, that's it no tests or additional challenges are happening here...and if i found out there were i'd be the first one petitioning for Lerner to broom his ass out the door, QB guru and deep buddy club member or not!
he did however also say "i'm not dodging, i just really don't know yet. i'll know more in a month". whether it's because of a Freudian slip or because he'll genuinely know more, he kinda invited them to revisit the question a month from now.
i give him the benefit of the doubt. with such a crucial decision if he's not 100% sure i can appreciate that.
~we haven't been sure for 4 years, we can give the QB messiah 3 months i guess.~
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imo, you're drawing the wrong conclusion. mh seems like, coming in the door, he wanted to give mangini and his staff the opportunity to sort it out on their own. who knows, it could've even been a test to see if they would humble themselves and ask someone who knows instead of letting pride get in the way.
there's nothing wrong with mh not being a dictator. he said he's not going to be the coach, but if someone asks for his help, he'll more than gladly give it. i like mh's approach to things and have no problem with it. maybe he just wanted to give guys a fair shot to do it on their own at first. i don't see him sitting back and doing nothing if things go wrong. then ofcourse, there's this quote:
sounds like mh got an open invitation. you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
?
no offense but it sounds a bit like you're thinking out loud here S_J.
i get what Steve is saying and i don't think it's about to/not to micro-manage Mangini and his staff at all. the guy specializes in quarterbacks and the most relevant pass-heavy offenses in the NFL for decades, and is admittedly a little bit arrogant about his success with it. says "he can improve anybody"...but he's not coaching.
as Holmgren himself stated it's his job to get the coach the guys he needs to succeed, and Mangini's job to coach them.
he was asked to focus on that specific aspect of the team by the head coach, but when asked about his evaluation he reverts to coach-speak because it's only been 12 NFL starts with several other appearances, countless hours of practice tape and a 10 year body of work to assess.
this kinda reads--don't ask again on the 31st start, i said 32nd!
this move buys some time and shows me he understands the importance of Quinn's role with the team to some of the fans.
you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
well i hope so since he was specifically asked and if he didn't he would not be doing his job. our success depends heavily on BOTH (all) of them working together closely.
btw Mangini's audition is over, he doesn't have to prove anything to MH now. he was asked for help, and with an 800 million dollar franchise hanging in the balance he better not be imposing a sink or swim mentality (!). he's the guy, that's it no tests or additional challenges are happening here...and if i found out there were i'd be the first one petitioning for Lerner to broom his ass out the door, QB guru and deep buddy club member or not!
he did however also say "i'm not dodging, i just really don't know yet. i'll know more in a month". whether it's because of a Freudian slip or because he'll genuinely know more, he kinda invited them to revisit the question a month from now.
i give him the benefit of the doubt. with such a crucial decision if he's not 100% sure i can appreciate that.
~we haven't been sure for 4 years, we can give the QB messiah 3 months i guess.~
?
no offense but it sounds a bit like you're thinking out loud here S_J.
i get what Steve is saying and i don't think it's about to/not to micro-manage Mangini and his staff at all. the guy specializes in quarterbacks and the most relevant pass-heavy offenses in the NFL for decades, and is admittedly a little bit arrogant about his success with it. says "he can improve anybody"...but he's not coaching.
as Holmgren himself stated it's his job to get the coach the guys he needs to succeed, and Mangini's job to coach them.
he was asked to focus on that specific aspect of the team by the head coach, but when asked about his evaluation he reverts to coach-speak because it's only been 12 NFL starts with several other appearances, countless hours of practice tape and a 10 year body of work to assess.
this kinda reads--don't ask again on the 31st start, i said 32nd!
this move buys some time and shows me he understands the importance of Quinn's role with the team to some of the fans.
well i hope so since he was specifically asked and if he didn't he would not be doing his job. our success depends heavily on BOTH (all) of them working together closely.
btw Mangini's audition is over, he doesn't have to prove anything to MH now. he was asked for help, and with an 800 million dollar franchise hanging in the balance he better not be imposing a sink or swim mentality (!). he's the guy, that's it no tests or additional challenges are happening here...and if i found out there were i'd be the first one petitioning for Lerner to broom his ass out the door, QB guru and deep buddy club member or not!
he did however also say "i'm not dodging, i just really don't know yet. i'll know more in a month". whether it's because of a Freudian slip or because he'll genuinely know more, he kinda invited them to revisit the question a month from now.
i give him the benefit of the doubt. with such a crucial decision if he's not 100% sure i can appreciate that.
~we haven't been sure for 4 years, we can give the QB messiah 3 months i guess.~
*standing ovation*
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imo, you're drawing the wrong conclusion. mh seems like, coming in the door, he wanted to give mangini and his staff the opportunity to sort it out on their own. who knows, it could've even been a test to see if they would humble themselves and ask someone who knows instead of letting pride get in the way.
there's nothing wrong with mh not being a dictator. he said he's not going to be the coach, but if someone asks for his help, he'll more than gladly give it. i like mh's approach to things and have no problem with it. maybe he just wanted to give guys a fair shot to do it on their own at first. i don't see him sitting back and doing nothing if things go wrong. then ofcourse, there's this quote:
sounds like mh got an open invitation. you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
?
no offense but it sounds a bit like you're thinking out loud here S_J.
i get what Steve is saying and i don't think it's about to/not to micro-manage Mangini and his staff at all. the guy specializes in quarterbacks and the most relevant pass-heavy offenses in the NFL for decades, and is admittedly a little bit arrogant about his success with it. says "he can improve anybody"...but he's not coaching.
as Holmgren himself stated it's his job to get the coach the guys he needs to succeed, and Mangini's job to coach them.
he was asked to focus on that specific aspect of the team by the head coach, but when asked about his evaluation he reverts to coach-speak because it's only been 12 NFL starts with several other appearances, countless hours of practice tape and a 10 year body of work to assess.
this kinda reads--don't ask again on the 31st start, i said 32nd!
this move buys some time and shows me he understands the importance of Quinn's role with the team to some of the fans.
you best believe if there's any problems or if mangini/daboll seem to not be able to make the right decisions, he'll jump right in and get it straight.
well i hope so since he was specifically asked and if he didn't he would not be doing his job. our success depends heavily on BOTH (all) of them working together closely.
btw Mangini's audition is over, he doesn't have to prove anything to MH now. he was asked for help, and with an 800 million dollar franchise hanging in the balance he better not be imposing a sink or swim mentality (!). he's the guy, that's it no tests or additional challenges are happening here...and if i found out there were i'd be the first one petitioning for Lerner to broom his ass out the door, QB guru and deep buddy club member or not!
he did however also say "i'm not dodging, i just really don't know yet. i'll know more in a month". whether it's because of a Freudian slip or because he'll genuinely know more, he kinda invited them to revisit the question a month from now.
i give him the benefit of the doubt. with such a crucial decision if he's not 100% sure i can appreciate that.
~we haven't been sure for 4 years, we can give the QB messiah 3 months i guess.~
?
no offense but it sounds a bit like you're thinking out loud here S_J.
i get what Steve is saying and i don't think it's about to/not to micro-manage Mangini and his staff at all. the guy specializes in quarterbacks and the most relevant pass-heavy offenses in the NFL for decades, and is admittedly a little bit arrogant about his success with it. says "he can improve anybody"...but he's not coaching.
as Holmgren himself stated it's his job to get the coach the guys he needs to succeed, and Mangini's job to coach them.
he was asked to focus on that specific aspect of the team by the head coach, but when asked about his evaluation he reverts to coach-speak because it's only been 12 NFL starts with several other appearances, countless hours of practice tape and a 10 year body of work to assess.
this kinda reads--don't ask again on the 31st start, i said 32nd!
this move buys some time and shows me he understands the importance of Quinn's role with the team to some of the fans.
well i hope so since he was specifically asked and if he didn't he would not be doing his job. our success depends heavily on BOTH (all) of them working together closely.
btw Mangini's audition is over, he doesn't have to prove anything to MH now. he was asked for help, and with an 800 million dollar franchise hanging in the balance he better not be imposing a sink or swim mentality (!). he's the guy, that's it no tests or additional challenges are happening here...and if i found out there were i'd be the first one petitioning for Lerner to broom his ass out the door, QB guru and deep buddy club member or not!
he did however also say "i'm not dodging, i just really don't know yet. i'll know more in a month". whether it's because of a Freudian slip or because he'll genuinely know more, he kinda invited them to revisit the question a month from now.
i give him the benefit of the doubt. with such a crucial decision if he's not 100% sure i can appreciate that.
~we haven't been sure for 4 years, we can give the QB messiah 3 months i guess.~
edit: who said mangini is still auditioning? i didn't say that. mangini got the job, but keeping it is a whole diffferent ballgame. you said that mangini has nothing to prove, but he does. nothing is written in stone and nothing is guaranteed with him or anyone else. he has to prove to mh that he can be the coach of the future. and i don't hate mangini either, i want him to succeed. i would rather that he does well asap because i'm sick of starting over. i'm just saying that getting your foot in the door doesn't guarantee you a long term stay .
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?
no offense but it sounds a bit like you're thinking out loud here S_J.
i get what Steve is saying and i don't think it's about to/not to micro-manage Mangini and his staff at all. the guy specializes in quarterbacks and the most relevant pass-heavy offenses in the NFL for decades, and is admittedly a little bit arrogant about his success with it. says "he can improve anybody"...but he's not coaching.
as Holmgren himself stated it's his job to get the coach the guys he needs to succeed, and Mangini's job to coach them.
he was asked to focus on that specific aspect of the team by the head coach, but when asked about his evaluation he reverts to coach-speak because it's only been 12 NFL starts with several other appearances, countless hours of practice tape and a 10 year body of work to assess.
this kinda reads--don't ask again on the 31st start, i said 32nd!
this move buys some time and shows me he understands the importance of Quinn's role with the team to some of the fans.
well i hope so since he was specifically asked and if he didn't he would not be doing his job. our success depends heavily on BOTH (all) of them working together closely.
btw Mangini's audition is over, he doesn't have to prove anything to MH now. he was asked for help, and with an 800 million dollar franchise hanging in the balance he better not be imposing a sink or swim mentality (!). he's the guy, that's it no tests or additional challenges are happening here...and if i found out there were i'd be the first one petitioning for Lerner to broom his ass out the door, QB guru and deep buddy club member or not!
he did however also say "i'm not dodging, i just really don't know yet. i'll know more in a month". whether it's because of a Freudian slip or because he'll genuinely know more, he kinda invited them to revisit the question a month from now.
i give him the benefit of the doubt. with such a crucial decision if he's not 100% sure i can appreciate that.
~we haven't been sure for 4 years, we can give the QB messiah 3 months i guess.~
edit: who said mangini is still auditioning? i didn't say that. mangini got the job, but keeping it is a whole diffferent ballgame. you said that mangini has nothing to prove, but he does. nothing is written in stone and nothing is guaranteed with him or anyone else. he has to prove to mh that he can be the coach of the future. and i don't hate mangini either, i want him to succeed. i would rather that he does well asap because i'm sick of starting over. i'm just saying that getting your foot in the door doesn't guarantee you a long term stay .
he has to prove to mh that he can be the coach of the future.
didn't that already happen? where ya been, SJ_! just kidding bud.i'm just saying that getting your foot in the door doesn't guarantee you a long term stay.
i certainly can't disagree there.curious though, why do you keep telling us you don't hate Mangini?
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@sisky-fringo said:
Mangini has already proven himself--he retained the position--but obviously he does need to show continued improvement. by audition i mean lack of job security, you say short-leash...tomato, tomato.it goes without saying the league is very volatile>>>if you aren't winning/producing at any time really drastic things can happen. that said, EM has already shown MH enough that he shouldn't be looking over his shoulder, and your view seems to indicate his job security is still in jeopardy.
most people don't perform well when someone's breathing down your neck, watching their every move, essentially just waiting for them to fail. to sit back and merely watch after being specifically asked for help in his area of specialization...i can't even begin to address what you propose.
to say it wouldn't be fair to EM, Lerner, the team, the city, the fans, the legacy etc etc could be nominated for Understatement of the Year, and i am no longer cynical enough to believe MH is that type anyway. it's seems undeniably that wouldn't create an environment for success but if you think that's realistic, have at it.
i actually edited my post because i think i misunderstood your statement and maybe you misunderstood my op, but you quoted me before i was done editing, so please disregard my post that you quoted. i agree that mangini isn't going to be looking over his back, i wasn't implying or saying he would be. that would be counter productive at this point. he should be given a fair chance, he deserves that.
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he has to prove to mh that he can be the coach of the future.
didn't that already happen? where ya been, SJ_! just kidding bud.i'm just saying that getting your foot in the door doesn't guarantee you a long term stay.
i certainly can't disagree there.curious though, why do you keep telling us you don't hate Mangini?
didn't that already happen? where ya been, SJ_! just kidding bud.
i certainly can't disagree there.
curious though, why do you keep telling us you don't hate Mangini?
because the first thing somebody usually says whenever anybody makes a critical comment about mangini is that you're a hater and you believe what the media says about him.
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i think we agree for the most part, SJ_. EM is safe...for now. if he doesn't show continued progress he'll have serious problems.
i just disagree that MH would be interested in watching EM and Daboll cultivate Quinn on their own, if that's what you were saying. there's just too much at stake to be that irresponsible and reckless.
i hope that would never happen, i want ego-less management.
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i think we agree for the most part, SJ_. EM is safe...for now. if he doesn't show continued progress he'll have serious problems.
i just disagree that MH would be interested in watching EM and Daboll cultivate Quinn on their own, if that's what you were saying. there's just too much at stake to be that irresponsible and reckless.
i hope that would never happen, i want ego-less management.
i think we agree for the most part, SJ_. EM is safe...for now. if he doesn't show continued progress he'll have serious problems.
i just disagree that MH would be interested in watching EM and Daboll cultivate Quinn on their own, if that's what you were saying. there's just too much at stake to be that irresponsible and reckless.
i hope that would never happen, i want ego-less management.
yes, we agree for the most part. i don't think mh would just sit back and do nothing in regards to the offense and the qb. i was just basically saying that he would allow em and daboll to present a blueprint of the o and he would look it over and go from there. he's the prez of football operations, so i think he was going to be involved from the start, but not like a dictator (butch davis).
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I think you are correct about Haskell.
If Holmgern looks, or should I say, gets too involved in coaching aspects, the Rooney rule could become a problem.
Haskell can get in with the coaching staff and have a little more say about how the nuts and bolts should be applied without running the risk of someone saying they didn't have a fair shot at some interview.
As you said.....Holmgren made the point several times....decisions made will be Cleveland Browns decisions. Decisions that have been hacked over with all the involved members of the staff. Anything that is decided will be more or less a consensus decision.
Everybody is going to have a say and all the options will be discussed. When you do that as a team, it isn't often you simply hit a wall with people disagreeing. Common ground can usually be found.
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