The Savage Truth
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thats a good point riff....
its not so much that he was blind to talent...he did get us rubin in the 6th and some other late round gems. what he couldn't do was properly cast players to the scheme, as well as determine the appropriate value for those players. iirc, he traded up to get hubbard and rucker....traded insane value for quinn (which allowed dallas the services of felix jones).
phil was just poor...oh so poor at maximizing his picks. he got tunnel vision on someone, and did whatever he had to do to get them. picks the next year apparently had no value, cause the idiot completely mortgaged the future by leaving us with 4 picks.
and extra big thanks to Mr. Mangini for fixing phils xxxxups and getting us back some picks to build this team. he knew we weren't ready to win....phil apparently thought we were a player or 2 away from the superbowl.
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Zombo said:
Oh, I have an opinion ... Savage was not "OK" ... he sucked.And comparing him to Holmgren who found Hall of Famers at #19 and #22 when you consider Savage traded a first and a second to move up to #22 and take a QB that won three games in three years on the roster.
Joe Tomas and Braylon Esdwrds were both considered "cant miss" at #3 ... plucking All-Pros at 19 & 22 and having them lead you to the Super Bowl is a different story.
Savage was terrible and he leaft a terrible team in his wake .. not really up for debate, Juno.
Zombo
Holmgram just coached a super bowl team buddy. He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful and the Seahawks won it 4 years after he was GM. Are we now somehow comparing Holmgram as a coach to Savage as a GM? is that even possible?
Again all you did in your post was point the 2 players he drafted out of 4 years of players that panned out. For all you know JT, and Cribbs make the HOF and Savage is on par with Holmgram with finding HOFers. What is your argument going to be then??
My whole argument isn't even that Savage was a great GM, just an average one or slightly below average ... and that Holmgram with his body of work looks to be the same as a gm. And you have said nothing to disprove that. And if you look at there drafts its pretty evident that I have a valid argument.
Thank god Holmgram ain't the GM and hopefully stays away from Heckerts draft.
PS please do not include Shaun or Hutch in any future rebuttles, because I get it he drafted those 2.
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"He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful"
alright, you can shut up now. if he didn't assemble the team, he's not responsible for the draft.
think before you post.....or at least proof-read it.
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They were high-fiving him for picking up Alex Hall (he's a consultant for the Eagles now).
All I could think of listening to this guy is that if it weren't for Matt Millen having a job in Detroit,...he would have been Matt Millen himself. How many players who can't play did this guy draft?
They were high-fiving him for picking up Alex Hall (he's a consultant for the Eagles now).
All I could think of listening to this guy is that if it weren't for Matt Millen having a job in Detroit,...he would have been Matt Millen himself. How many players who can't play did this guy draft?
LOL! Thanks Earl. Isn't that a marriage heading for turbulent waters in Philly. Think about it - that's a fanbase with the WORST football team in 1998. Mcnabb leads that SAME franchise to 10 postseasons and 5 NFC Championship appearances and Philly fan can still ONLY boo him because he's the winner that meant Ricky Williams is going to have to take his marijuana sebatical from another franchise. Meanwhile, those Retards requiring jail cells below the stands are too stupid to conceptualize that because they had McNabb instead of the overhyped RB, Brian Westbrook would become available to them a year or 2 later at rd 3 $. The most precious thing about it all is Villanova is located in Philly and there prolly still isn't 1 season ticket holder that knows they have a football porgam in spite of the epic draft steal in Brian Westbrook from Villanova.
All I can think of when it comes to Savage is his first message to us was something along this line (not exactly word for word but close):
"The reason I'm here is to better the draft for the Cleveland Browns. In doing so, we restore the developmental process of young players without overpaying while we restore chemistry and continuity in the process."
Then I look at what he did to our 2008 draft. No day 1 because we added a few dline FAs used to playing on 4 man fronts (Corey Williams, Shaun Rogers and Shaun Smith) and we traded up for Quinn in 07. Day 2 of that draft brought us 1 keeper - Rubin. THEN, he had us scheduled for just 4 draft picks in 2009 while the rest of our division seemed to be drafting a minimum of 10 guys apiece. How do you handcuff a coaching staff any better or quicker than that? In spite of it all, I liked being unbeaten in our last 4 outings of 2009.
IMO, Mangini did a pretty freakin good job overnight chnaging LBer from a weakness without depth to our defensive strength in 2009. He did it by bringing in guys like Matt Roth, undrafted rookie Marcus Benard, Jason Trusnik and rookie Kaluka Maiava. I thought he also did some real solid problem solving with putting Furrey into the secondary when we couldn't count on Brodney Pool again. I also saw Mike Adams emerge as a DB we could count on to play corner or Safety dependign upon the situation. We'll dress that up in 2010 - and we've got quite the head start.
Anyway, having 10 or 11 picks in this draft (possibly more with trade-downs) is going to be a real treat that opens up the opportunity for us to compete.
As you were...,
- Tom F.
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"He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful"
alright, you can shut up now. if he didn't assemble the team, he's not responsible for the draft.
think before you post.....or at least proof-read it.
"He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful"
alright, you can shut up now. if he didn't assemble the team, he's not responsible for the draft.
think before you post.....or at least proof-read it.
Holmgram was the GM untill 2001 ... The Seahawks went to the super bowl in 2005 FOUR years later ... He didnt assemble that team. 4 players were left from his drafts.
Maybe you should shut up now.
It would be like saying Butch Davis put together the 2007 Browns.
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Zombo said:
Apparently you don't.
They don't make the Super Bowl without either of them.
HOFers at #19 and #22.
Sure, Savage grabbed the can't miss Left Tackle at #3 ... but then traded a first and a second for a QB that won three games.
That's bad ... very bad ... franchise needing to reboot bad ... as opposed to your two best picks leading your franchise to a Super Bowl.
No one is saying Holmgen was a great GM ... but he made some great picks ... Savaged sucked.
Zombo
They both made a couple great picks. but the rest of all there drafts savage out drafted him imo. Both of them made huge mistakes ... Savages mistakes were more along the line of shitty contracts though. He had a pretty decent eye for talent though. Keep in mind also that we haven't yet seen the ceiling on some of the guys Savage drafted such as Rubin and Harrison (both who think can be very good NFL players) I also think Savage got screwed with Romeo as his coach. Romeo was a bad coach and was hired right before Savage if I remember correctly.
And in regards to the Quinn thing ... He rolled the dice. And giving up a first and second for a first I would say is market value...or not much above it. Plus When that happen most people were drolling over that move. (Me and you probably agree we weren't excited its the only thing we probably do agree on) but at the same time I didn't mind he took the gamble and did it.
And I know you obsessed with the fact that with the third overall pick in a draft you are suppose to get a franchise player. If you look at the 2005 draft it is awful as far as high end talent. The only guy who came out of that draft that would be considered a franchise player would be arron rodgers and who knows if the Brownies would have drafted him and threw him right into the fire right away if he would have turned out how he did or more like Tim Couch. I remember Rodgers being a bit raw when he came out which is probably why he slipped. Braylon is still regarded as one of the better players to come out of that mess of a draft.
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Zombo said:
Apparently you don't.
They don't make the Super Bowl without either of them.
HOFers at #19 and #22.
Sure, Savage grabbed the can't miss Left Tackle at #3 ... but then traded a first and a second for a QB that won three games.
That's bad ... very bad ... franchise needing to reboot bad ... as opposed to your two best picks leading your franchise to a Super Bowl.
No one is saying Holmgen was a great GM ... but he made some great picks ... Savaged sucked.
Zombo
They both made a couple great picks. but the rest of all there drafts savage out drafted him imo. Both of them made huge mistakes ... Savages mistakes were more along the line of shitty contracts though. He had a pretty decent eye for talent though. Keep in mind also that we haven't yet seen the ceiling on some of the guys Savage drafted such as Rubin and Harrison (both who think can be very good NFL players) I also think Savage got screwed with Romeo as his coach. Romeo was a bad coach and was hired right before Savage if I remember correctly.
And in regards to the Quinn thing ... He rolled the dice. And giving up a first and second for a first I would say is market value...or not much above it. Plus When that happen most people were drolling over that move. (Me and you probably agree we weren't excited its the only thing we probably do agree on) but at the same time I didn't mind he took the gamble and did it.
And I know you obsessed with the fact that with the third overall pick in a draft you are suppose to get a franchise player. If you look at the 2005 draft it is awful as far as high end talent. The only guy who came out of that draft that would be considered a franchise player would be arron rodgers and who knows if the Brownies would have drafted him and threw him right into the fire right away if he would have turned out how he did or more like Tim Couch. I remember Rodgers being a bit raw when he came out which is probably why he slipped. Braylon is still regarded as one of the better players to come out of that mess of a draft.
They both made a couple great picks. but the rest of all there drafts savage out drafted him imo. Both of them made huge mistakes ... Savages mistakes were more along the line of shitty contracts though. He had a pretty decent eye for talent though. Keep in mind also that we haven't yet seen the ceiling on some of the guys Savage drafted such as Rubin and Harrison (both who think can be very good NFL players) I also think Savage got screwed with Romeo as his coach. Romeo was a bad coach and was hired right before Savage if I remember correctly.
And in regards to the Quinn thing ... He rolled the dice. And giving up a first and second for a first I would say is market value...or not much above it. Plus When that happen most people were drolling over that move. (Me and you probably agree we weren't excited its the only thing we probably do agree on) but at the same time I didn't mind he took the gamble and did it.
And I know you obsessed with the fact that with the third overall pick in a draft you are suppose to get a franchise player. If you look at the 2005 draft it is awful as far as high end talent. The only guy who came out of that draft that would be considered a franchise player would be arron rodgers and who knows if the Brownies would have drafted him and threw him right into the fire right away if he would have turned out how he did or more like Tim Couch. I remember Rodgers being a bit raw when he came out which is probably why he slipped. Braylon is still regarded as one of the better players to come out of that mess of a draft.
Sorry guy, Savage didn't outdraft anyone. We were like Mayberry with Barney Fife in charge. Take a look at the draft volumes he left us in 2008 & 2009. In 2008, he traded away day 1 and all we got left from that volume of 5 picks is Rubin. In 2009, he had us down to 4 picks until Mangini doubled it to 8.
Braylon Edwards ended as an apic disappointment and Wimbley had 1 nice season of looking like a 13th overall pick out of 4. And the way Savage described Brodney Pool and the player we saw were 2 completely different players.
In 4 drafts, he got 1 pick of the litter right with Joe Thomas as a #3 overall. Should that be so impossible? Not only that but he stunk at drafting olinemen and dlinemen (with 2 exceptions in 4 years: Thomas & Rubin). Jon Dunn, Chase Pittman Melila Purcell, Andrew Hoffman, Babe Oshinowo, Isuck Sowells, etc.
After telling us we would build THROUGH the draft - Savage put ALL of his marbles into LeCharles Bentley at Center. In doing so, he was made the highest paid free agent Center ever. The problem with that was Bentley got a career ending injury the first day of ctraining amp and we would seemingly audition 8 more guys with the last guy being Fraley. Even though we could pay most of the auditioners NFL minimum wage - Fraley wasn't leaving Philly for under a million $ right? So how much cake did we waste just on the Center position?
Perhaps the most unforgivable Savage error was starting this franchise off with Trent Dilfer as the starter with Charlie Frye on deck and DA in the hole. Phil's FA choices like Jason Fisk, Antwaan Peek, Shantee Orr, Shaun Smith, Corey Williams, Ted Washington, Donte Stallworth, Matt Stewart, etc just showed how often he overpaid players with better days in the rear view mirror.
The scariest thing of all is he was the biggest Jamarcus Russell fan on the planet. Savage needed to go - he was KILLING this franchise.
He wasn't a bad guy - he was just a horrible GM at this stage of his career.
- Tom F.
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I see some debate about Holmgren's draft history on here. Well, I think we can all agree that Holmgren wasn't very good when it came to GM and HC at the same time and from the way he has been talking since he came here, he understands that. He also seems willing to let Mangini and Heckert do their jobs drafting. I know it gets confusing at times because Holmgren does all the talking, but he isn't making the decisions here, he is only telling us what the team's direction and focus is.
If you have noticed, when it comes to personel questions, he defers to the coach or to Heckert. The only time he answers questions about players is when he is alone. And he has already had to backpedal a little bit on Clausen. I'll pay you a million dollars if you can find me Eric Mangini having to backpedal because he said too much, or Heckert giving you any real scouting report on a player not on this team right now. They don't because they are doing the work so they know what information to share, and what info to hide. Holmgren is only the messenger as far as the draft goes and so he will speak out of school at times. We see it as being a straight shooter, but in reality, he's the guy who has been elected to do the talking and this time of year, he's talking about something and doesn't have all the facts about. The draft.
All in all though, Holmgren doesn't have a good draft history but don't worry, he's not drafting for this team. The chain of command in the draft will go Mangini, some important team scout, Heckert, and then Holmgren. And that is typically how it goes on any team.
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Savage was terrible. I can't believe that anyone would ever defend his drafting. He drafted maybe 3 genuine starters total.
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Zombo said:
Apparently you don't.
They don't make the Super Bowl without either of them.
HOFers at #19 and #22.
Sure, Savage grabbed the can't miss Left Tackle at #3 ... but then traded a first and a second for a QB that won three games.
That's bad ... very bad ... franchise needing to reboot bad ... as opposed to your two best picks leading your franchise to a Super Bowl.
No one is saying Holmgen was a great GM ... but he made some great picks ... Savaged sucked.
Zombo
Ya know I was gonna let this thread go because its just going in circles ... but I happened to see Shauns numbers today ... and I dont think he had enough great years to even make the HOF. He had 4 or 5 great years. I'll give him the benfit of the doubt and say 5, because the borderline year was borderline in yardage, and high in TDs. (1175 yard and 16 TDs) 1175 is a good year for yardage but not a great year imo, but the TDs are great. 5 great years I dont think puts you in the HOF.
Just saying ... 2 HOFers made mikes draft look much better then only having one HOFer
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Savage was terrible. I can't believe that anyone would ever defend his drafting. He drafted maybe 3 genuine starters total.
Savage was terrible. I can't believe that anyone would ever defend his drafting. He drafted maybe 3 genuine starters total.
He drafted vickers, Braylon, JT, Wright, DQ, Pool, Rubin, Harrison, and Kam all very solid pro's and genuine starters ... and thats off the top of my head. And he signed Cribbs as an undrafted FA. Not to mention that with playing time Harrison looked awesome and who knows how he ends up ... same with Rubin.
I'd say thats easily more then 3.
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Mangini's picks include Prol and all pro Darrelle Revis..All pro Nick Mangold and Pro Bowler Furguson and some 4th rounder named Leon Washington and LB'er Harris..thats a good track record..OH and Alex Mack looks like he's pretty good
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Mangini's picks include Prol and all pro Darrelle Revis..All pro Nick Mangold and Pro Bowler Furguson and some 4th rounder named Leon Washington and LB'er Harris..thats a good track record..OH and Alex Mack looks like he's pretty good
Mangini's picks include Prol and all pro Darrelle Revis..All pro Nick Mangold and Pro Bowler Furguson and some 4th rounder named Leon Washington and LB'er Harris..thats a good track record..OH and Alex Mack looks like he's pretty good
I love Manginis picks. He isnt who I question. I hope he has free reign on drafting ...
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