Is Haden on His Way?
-
I think thats a smoke screen saying all gms say so they don't tip there hand and hopefully a players they want fall to them. If a pure left tackle ( can only play that position ) is the best player available they would not grab just for the sake of taking the best available player, especially in the first round. That would set your team back, not help it.
I need to clear up this 'smokescreen' misunderstanding once and for all. Here is how a 'smokescreen' works.
You don't say you're not taking a guy in order to confuse teams, that works against you and you have nothing to gain. So say if SF wants Haden and you say you're not taking him, well then, SF isn't going to worry about trading up if you're the only team that may need Haden. Afterall, you're not taking him right? Teams will then offer SF trades instead of you because you're not taking him anyways right? If you do end up taking him well then what's the point of lying about it? You gain nothing by saying you're not taking a guy.
However, if you express interest in say, Jimmy Clausen even thought you know you're not taking him (see Mike's recent backtrack on clausen) and SF may really like him. And if they think you want him and he may not be there for them, then they will start making offers to move up. That, is how it works. I think some people call it a 'smokescreen' whenever they don't agree with the statement.
I need to clear up this 'smokescreen' misunderstanding once and for all. Here is how a 'smokescreen' works.
You don't say you're not taking a guy in order to confuse teams, that works against you and you have nothing to gain. So say if SF wants Haden and you say you're not taking him, well then, SF isn't going to worry about trading up if you're the only team that may need Haden. Afterall, you're not taking him right? Teams will then offer SF trades instead of you because you're not taking him anyways right? If you do end up taking him well then what's the point of lying about it? You gain nothing by saying you're not taking a guy.
However, if you express interest in say, Jimmy Clausen even thought you know you're not taking him (see Mike's recent backtrack on clausen) and SF may really like him. And if they think you want him and he may not be there for them, then they will start making offers to move up. That, is how it works. I think some people call it a 'smokescreen' whenever they don't agree with the statement.
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
I dont think saying we are picking the BPA is a smokescreen, we need help everywhere (except LT and C, maybe TE) and we should pick the most talented player that would best help out team
-
So you think we are deep are corner? Have you checked the roster lately?
Brown and Wright...and brown is out of his prime. Nothing after that....
Edit: did san diego suffer a setback taking eli?
-
So you think we are deep are corner? Have you checked the roster lately?
Brown and Wright...and brown is out of his prime. Nothing after that....
Edit: did san diego suffer a setback taking eli?
So you think we are deep are corner? Have you checked the roster lately?
Brown and Wright...and brown is out of his prime. Nothing after that....
Edit: did san diego suffer a setback taking eli?
C is center (Alex Mack), CB is corner. and no I dont think we are deep at the corner position
-
I need to clear up this 'smokescreen' misunderstanding once and for all. Here is how a 'smokescreen' works.
You don't say you're not taking a guy in order to confuse teams, that works against you and you have nothing to gain. So say if SF wants Haden and you say you're not taking him, well then, SF isn't going to worry about trading up if you're the only team that may need Haden. Afterall, you're not taking him right? Teams will then offer SF trades instead of you because you're not taking him anyways right? If you do end up taking him well then what's the point of lying about it? You gain nothing by saying you're not taking a guy.
However, if you express interest in say, Jimmy Clausen even thought you know you're not taking him (see Mike's recent backtrack on clausen) and SF may really like him. And if they think you want him and he may not be there for them, then they will start making offers to move up. That, is how it works. I think some people call it a 'smokescreen' whenever they don't agree with the statement.
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
I dont think saying we are picking the BPA is a smokescreen, we need help everywhere (except LT and C, maybe TE) and we should pick the most talented player that would best help out team
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
I dont think saying we are picking the BPA is a smokescreen, we need help everywhere (except LT and C, maybe TE) and we should pick the most talented player that would best help out team
That's one of the points i was trying to make, thanks for explaining it for me.
-
So you think we are deep are corner? Have you checked the roster lately?
Brown and Wright...and brown is out of his prime. Nothing after that....
Edit: did san diego suffer a setback taking eli?
Edit: did san diego suffer a setback taking eli?
That was a pre draft trade agreement. Eli still wanted to be #1 overall like his brother but would not sign with San Diego. About our corners good enough for this year that you can grab another one in the 2nd or 3rd. Right now we don't have a starting fs, unless you think Sorenson is the answer.
-
I need to clear up this 'smokescreen' misunderstanding once and for all. Here is how a 'smokescreen' works.
You don't say you're not taking a guy in order to confuse teams, that works against you and you have nothing to gain. So say if SF wants Haden and you say you're not taking him, well then, SF isn't going to worry about trading up if you're the only team that may need Haden. Afterall, you're not taking him right? Teams will then offer SF trades instead of you because you're not taking him anyways right? If you do end up taking him well then what's the point of lying about it? You gain nothing by saying you're not taking a guy.
However, if you express interest in say, Jimmy Clausen even thought you know you're not taking him (see Mike's recent backtrack on clausen) and SF may really like him. And if they think you want him and he may not be there for them, then they will start making offers to move up. That, is how it works. I think some people call it a 'smokescreen' whenever they don't agree with the statement.
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
I dont think saying we are picking the BPA is a smokescreen, we need help everywhere (except LT and C, maybe TE) and we should pick the most talented player that would best help out team
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
See, that doesn't make sense because what do we care if a team moves ahead of us to take a player that we don't want?
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
See, that doesn't make sense because what do we care if a team moves ahead of us to take a player that we don't want?
See, that doesn't make sense because what do we care if a team moves ahead of us to take a player that we don't want?
He's saying we don't want Clausen and somebody leap frogs over us to take him someone like Berry could be available.
-
So you think we are deep are corner? Have you checked the roster lately?
Brown and Wright...and brown is out of his prime. Nothing after that....
Edit: did san diego suffer a setback taking eli?
C is center (Alex Mack), CB is corner. and no I dont think we are deep at the corner position
C is center (Alex Mack), CB is corner. and no I dont think we are deep at the corner position
Sorry...but you snuck in there.
That was at jason
-
A smokescreen could actually work the other way around as well. I am not saying that the Browns are doing this, but by saying you dont particularly like a player or saying you wont take him may make teams not trade a spot ahead of you and pick the guy. For example, HYPOTHETICALLY (I DONT think we're actually doing this), we could say we arent interested in Clausen so that SF or Buffalo wont trade to the #6 slot to pick Clausen, thats a smokescreen as well.
See, that doesn't make sense because what do we care if a team moves ahead of us to take a player that we don't want?
See, that doesn't make sense because what do we care if a team moves ahead of us to take a player that we don't want?
No I am saying that hypothetically if we do really want someone, lets use Clausen as an example, we could smokescreen and say that we dont want him so that teams later on wont feel the need to jump ahead of us to grab Clausen, thus the player we actually want (Clausen) is still there when we pick
-
Heckert and Holmgren already said this is not how they are going to draft.
They are going to draft what they consider to be the best player available. No reaching for position of need.
I think thats a smoke screen saying all gms say so they don't tip there hand and hopefully a players they want fall to them. If a pure left tackle ( can only play that position ) is the best player available they would not grab just for the sake of taking the best available player, especially in the first round. That would set your team back, not help it.
I think thats a smoke screen saying all gms say so they don't tip there hand and hopefully a players they want fall to them. If a pure left tackle ( can only play that position ) is the best player available they would not grab just for the sake of taking the best available player, especially in the first round. That would set your team back, not help it.
That is an incredibly incomplete way of looking at things.
I say this for two reasons:
1) From a draft board creation procedure, if a team absolutely does not want a particular player, they will remove him from the draft board. No matter how much skill the player may have. Amongst probably other reasons, this is done for character, injury, and/or lack of need. Dez Bryant is probably one removed for character reasons. The top rated center and long snapper are probably removed for lack of need. Some players may be so skilled, that you leave them on the board despite lack of need, much as the Vikings did with Adrian Peterson. But regardless, each teams draft board is going to look different. If a player is on their draft board, that means they think he’s worth drafting. Then they assign values to each player. Is he worth a top 10? Is he worth a 1st rounder? Is he worth a 5th rounder? If a the Best Player Available (BPA) is valued in the top10 to 15, and they can’t trade out of the #7 overall, they take him. For example, lets say that, in order, the Browns top 11 looks like Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Okung, Berry, Baluga, D Williams, T Williams, Haden, Spiller, Morgan… and Okung falls to #7 but Suh, McCoy, and Bradford are off the board. They take Okung (don’t debate this yet, take a look at my 2nd reason below). But if Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Okung, Berry, Baluga are all off the board, and the Browns for whatever reason have removed D Williams, T Williams, and Haden from the board, they take Spiller at #7. Teams might also rate players on there board in order, somewhat based on need. In other words, they might rate Bradford #1 overall because they need a QB more than they need Suh or McCoy.
2) The Browns right side of the offensive line is still very questionable, even with the addition of Pashos. I mean Womack/Pashos G/T on the right side (interchangeable?) might be a one or two season stop gap at best anyways. So they need a RT or RG in the draft. That’s why Okung, Baluga, or Campbell might be options. There are some Guards that are rated 18th through 32nd on the draft board. If the Browns trade back, they may pick up a Guard.
So yes, there is a ton of smoke and mirrors leading up to a draft. And depending on how you put your draft board together, you may skew it slightly based on need, but overall you should draft BPA regardless of any specific needs. For example: If the Browns have Odrick rated as a #18 to 24 and They have Haden, Spiller, and Dan Williams available, which they have rated #6 to 15, they take one of the later three instead of Odrick, unless they can trade back to where they have him valued.
BPA drafting doesn’t mean you don’t try to target specific players and specific positions, but you don’t reach for those positions if the value isn’t there.
-
He's saying we don't want Clausen and somebody leap frogs over us to take him someone like Berry could be available.
Good point! Actually, I thought about that over my lunch break.
-
why grab haden when we just traded for Sheldon Brown, i think we should draft a position of need before we add to cb that we're set at for at least this year.
i still think it's a position of need. haden if berry is gone ONLY if one of the top OL aren't there or had dropped. imagine our OL if we can pick up one of the top 3 or 4? in the afc north you gotta have the run game in december and we all know mangini built a pretty good one in ny.
i still think it's a position of need. haden if berry is gone ONLY if one of the top OL aren't there or had dropped. imagine our OL if we can pick up one of the top 3 or 4? in the afc north you gotta have the run game in december and we all know mangini built a pretty good one in ny.
I think we need a safety more at this point....though certainly a quality corner is still a need. The problem is the Browns need a lot, so maybe they should just go out and get the best guy out there.
-
Drafting the best player available is the absolute best formula for winning. How many times have the Pats, Eagles, or Indy taken a position that they don't really need? That's how you flood your team with talent and avoid blowing draft picks. Drafting by need can cause a team to reach for somebody and narrow down your options which mathematically lowers your chances of getting a good player. That's not to say we'll take a LT because he's the best but it does mean we can take the best LB, CB, S, RB, G, or WR instead of looking for the best DB, we can now choose from the best out of multiple positions. Once you identify the best available, then you can decide whether or not the team can use him and make a sound decision.
Drafting the best player available is the absolute best formula for winning. How many times have the Pats, Eagles, or Indy taken a position that they don't really need? That's how you flood your team with talent and avoid blowing draft picks. Drafting by need can cause a team to reach for somebody and narrow down your options which mathematically lowers your chances of getting a good player. That's not to say we'll take a LT because he's the best but it does mean we can take the best LB, CB, S, RB, G, or WR instead of looking for the best DB, we can now choose from the best out of multiple positions. Once you identify the best available, then you can decide whether or not the team can use him and make a sound decision.
We can choose the best out of multiple positions because, unfortuneatley we have needs at all those positions LB, CB, S, RB, G, or WR.
-
Drafting the best player available is the absolute best formula for winning. How many times have the Pats, Eagles, or Indy taken a position that they don't really need? That's how you flood your team with talent and avoid blowing draft picks. Drafting by need can cause a team to reach for somebody and narrow down your options which mathematically lowers your chances of getting a good player. That's not to say we'll take a LT because he's the best but it does mean we can take the best LB, CB, S, RB, G, or WR instead of looking for the best DB, we can now choose from the best out of multiple positions. Once you identify the best available, then you can decide whether or not the team can use him and make a sound decision.
We can choose the best out of multiple positions because, unfortuneatley we have needs at all those positions LB, CB, S, RB, G, or WR.
We can choose the best out of multiple positions because, unfortuneatley we have needs at all those positions LB, CB, S, RB, G, or WR.
The term 'need' is relative. We did upgrade at QB, LB, RT, and CB which I know isn't saying much but we could justify ignoring all 4 of those positions in the 1st round. We probably won't though because the best player available at #7 will probably be at S/CB. For instance, if we took best available last year it would have been because it didn't matter what position it was, it was an upgrade. This year, we have more leverage and that's why I think we'll be looking at best player available. And that's a position I like being in.
-
At the end of the day I don't want to be saying: " we still don't have a starting FS ".
-
At the end of the day I don't want to be saying: " we still don't have a starting FS ".
At the end of the day I don't want to be saying: " we still don't have a starting FS ".
What about Adams?
-
At the end of the day I don't want to be saying: " we still don't have a starting FS ".
What about Adams?
-
ROFL. You serious, i'm talking about a legit starter.
He's a serviceable starter. Not stellar, but he's serviceable.
Right now, we only have three safeties under contract, Elam, Adams and Ventrone. I certainly don't want Ventrone as FS.
-
ROFL. You serious, i'm talking about a legit starter.
He's a serviceable starter. Not stellar, but he's serviceable.
Right now, we only have three safeties under contract, Elam, Adams and Ventrone. I certainly don't want Ventrone as FS.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login