May 4th, 1970
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Sad time.
Sad time for the students that got killed and sad time for the Guardsman who were forced to shoot.
Sad time for the students that got killed and sad time for the Guardsman who were forced to shoot.
They weren't forced to shoot. They had control over the trigger.
Predicted Records:2010: 8-82011: 8-82012: 9-72013: 5-112014: 6-10 -
They weren't forced to shoot. They had control over the trigger.
That is one slant. The other slant is people should have quit throwing objects and stopped to proceed forward when asked to do so.
Sorry man, if the man with the gun tells me to stop, I am going to stop, and leave.
It is an American tragedy no doubt......but it is so on several different levels.
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radical students, some who weren't even Kent students, brought in burlap
bags of rocks.
They were throwing rocks and advancing on the Guardsmen.
Warning shots were fired, some students got killed in different areas of the commons.
Some were injured.
All sorts of students were looking for serious trouble, even if they had to force it to happen.
Like, we were walking off campus right after those shootings, and two big long hairs were trying to
intimidate a young lone Guardsman guarding some trucks and jeeps. They were bumping into him,
getting in his face, and tried to put some gravel and a flower down his rifle barrel.
All this while the young Guardsman stayed still, at attention.
Right before the long hairs would have put the stuff into his barrel of his rifle....
my best friend and I started to go across the lane to help him.
But he wheeled his rifle around and pointed it at them.
They backed off fast.
Word on the campus was, that whoever had a camera with them, would be taken for a Fed,
and would get hurt.
The same word went out a year later for May 4th rallies.
You don't know diddley. I was there. It was not a "special time".
The hippies were completely dangerous and out of control, and that was BEFORE
we went into sociology class.
People were injured and killed because of the violence initiated by the leftwing students rallying.
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They weren't forced to shoot. They had control over the trigger.
Some students were throwing cherry bombs, golf balls with nails, etc. They were forced into an unfortunate situation.
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Some students were throwing cherry bombs, golf balls with nails, etc. They were forced into an unfortunate situation.
*********************
I never heard that, but I wouldn't doubt it. You had to be there - there were strange people all over the place that May 4th,
who none of my friends had EVER seen on campus before at a rally.
Seriously - the two big long hairs I mentioned? They were at least 6' 5" tall. Seemingly identical twins.
I never saw anybody like them
ever again, for the next couple of years I went to Kent, at ANY rally. We used to go to the rallies
and stand at the back of the big crowd, and us normal students @@ would make jokes in our group.
One day, one of the guys who had been a speaker, was standing at the back for whatever reason,
and heard us making fun jokes about the rally speakers, and he came up and said "damn, I always wondered
why there was laughing at the back of the crowd. It kept messin with my mind, man. Now I know, it's you guys
joking around, " and he laughed and walked away. GGG
Which brings to mind another story (egad...)...
One day, at Kent, I was done with classes and was walking from the -old- student union to the parking lot to meet some friends
to go to A&W and get a footlong and a megaphone of root beer and go home. Really. It was a fairly big cardboard cup that
was shaped like a megaphone, and indeed, could be used as one with the bottom poked out and...
Oops... okay, so I was walking across the Commons, and close to the dorm next to Taylor Hall, there was a
quart sized clear plastic bag laying there broken open. In the bag, and on the walk, was a white flour-like powder.
I stopped and puzzled about that for a second, and all of a sudden a window opens up at the dorm, and some
long hair loudly whispered "DUDE, get the hell away from that, FAST before anybody sees you !!!" and quickly shut his window.
I turned right and walked quickly away from it on the grass.
Hey, back then, I had no idea what it was. @@
The "glamor" of the "big bad Guardsmen assault the poor little nice students who were only protesting the war" is completely
lost on me. It's bogus. I'm sorry the tragedy happend. But - the famous picture of the girl kneeling over a shot student?
She wasn't a Kent student either. There were students from all over the country, they say - (that's from the young lady
protestor I wrote about in another story - her brother was in Vietnam, etc.... they were going to have an all out confrontation
to "make a statement that won't be forgotten".)
Well, they did that alright.
-
Gloria Steinem ordered the shots.
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Kosar, .... LOL....
-
radical students, some who weren't even Kent students, brought in burlap
bags of rocks.
They were throwing rocks and advancing on the Guardsmen.
Warning shots were fired, some students got killed in different areas of the commons.
Some were injured.
All sorts of students were looking for serious trouble, even if they had to force it to happen.
Like, we were walking off campus right after those shootings, and two big long hairs were trying to
intimidate a young lone Guardsman guarding some trucks and jeeps. They were bumping into him,
getting in his face, and tried to put some gravel and a flower down his rifle barrel.
All this while the young Guardsman stayed still, at attention.
Right before the long hairs would have put the stuff into his barrel of his rifle....
my best friend and I started to go across the lane to help him.
But he wheeled his rifle around and pointed it at them.
They backed off fast.
Word on the campus was, that whoever had a camera with them, would be taken for a Fed,
and would get hurt.
The same word went out a year later for May 4th rallies.
You don't know diddley. I was there. It was not a "special time".
The hippies were completely dangerous and out of control, and that was BEFORE
we went into sociology class.
People were injured and killed because of the violence initiated by the leftwing students rallying.
radical students, some who weren't even Kent students, brought in burlap
bags of rocks.
They were throwing rocks and advancing on the Guardsmen.
Warning shots were fired, some students got killed in different areas of the commons.
Some were injured.
All sorts of students were looking for serious trouble, even if they had to force it to happen.
Like, we were walking off campus right after those shootings, and two big long hairs were trying to
intimidate a young lone Guardsman guarding some trucks and jeeps. They were bumping into him,
getting in his face, and tried to put some gravel and a flower down his rifle barrel.
All this while the young Guardsman stayed still, at attention.
Right before the long hairs would have put the stuff into his barrel of his rifle....
my best friend and I started to go across the lane to help him.
But he wheeled his rifle around and pointed it at them.
They backed off fast.
Word on the campus was, that whoever had a camera with them, would be taken for a Fed,
and would get hurt.
The same word went out a year later for May 4th rallies.
You don't know diddley. I was there. It was not a "special time".
The hippies were completely dangerous and out of control, and that was BEFORE
we went into sociology class.
People were injured and killed because of the violence initiated by the leftwing students rallying.
There was no such thing as "leftwing" "rightwing" in those days. That was a creation of the 80s.
Though I was not there on campus, I know people who were, both students and guardsmen.
As for your anecdotes, I can't tell about them, but I do know one item of fact you stated that is not true: There were no "warning" shots fired by anyone. That is well documented. Verbal warnings, perhap, but no shots.
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By the way, yes, students did put "things" into the guns of the guardsmen: Flowers
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Here is a fairly neutral treatment on the subject, including film of many of the events of the day:
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As for your anecdotes, I can't tell about them, but I do know one item of fact you stated that is not true: There were no "warning" shots fired by anyone. That is well documented. Verbal warnings, perhap, but no shots. Gip
*****************************
What I meant was, that those shots were not directly into the crowd in front of them.
Think about it. That many Guardsmen with that many shots and only 4 were killed? At that range,
I figure one shot could kill two people. @@
So, the shots were NOT fired directly into the crowd, they were fired elsewhere, and that means
they were fired as warning shots, but they richoched all over the place.
Go back and look at the locations of those who were killed and wounded.
And, the verbage I use retroactively, yes, we didn't use back then. Who cares?
They were commie hippies back then, Jerry Rubin telling the crowd to "kill your parents to be free" and Traitor Jane Fonda
saying really STUPID stuff. And I SAW those two guys pick up a few pieces of gravel from the top edge of the curb.
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A good video.
The first shot was fired into the air with a pistol eh?
Gosh, that sounds like a freakin WARNING shot to me.
61/67 shots fired AT students?
There would be more like 57 students killed.
Truth, part of what he said was NOT true.
A LOT of US were GLAD the National Guardsmen were there.
The LEFTWING hippies weren't. Too freakin bad.
The ROTC building was torched on a Saturday night, I believe it was.
But no, people had no idea why the National Guard was called in?
pfft.
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A good video.
The first shot was fired into the air with a pistol eh?
Gosh, that sounds like a freakin WARNING shot to me.
61/67 shots fired AT students?
There would be more like 57 students killed.
Truth, part of what he said was NOT true.
A LOT of US were GLAD the National Guardsmen were there.
The LEFTWING hippies weren't. Too freakin bad.
The ROTC building was torched on a Saturday night, I believe it was.
But no, people had no idea why the National Guard was called in?
pfft.
A good video.
The first shot was fired into the air with a pistol eh?
Gosh, that sounds like a freakin WARNING shot to me.
Well, it might have been intended as a "warning shot" had it not been but one second prior to the ensuing shots. In fact, it is possible that that "warning" shot was the unintentional "trigger" for the remaining shots to be fired.
61/67 shots fired AT students?
There would be more like 57 students killed.
Well, there were 4 killed and I believe 14 others wounded, so a sufficient percentage of the shots hit a mark. Plus, since all the students were probably between 60-200 yards away from the guardsmen when they shot I would say that a sufficent percentage of the 61 bullets hit their marks. I think you may be putting a bit too much faith in the accuracy of the M-16 rifle at those distances, especially when I suspect that a fair percentage of the shots fired were just "frenzy shots".
Truth, part of what he said was NOT true.
A LOT of US were GLAD the National Guardsmen were there.
The LEFTWING hippies weren't. Too freakin bad.
Three of the 4 killed were just your ordinary straightlaced students walking between classes. Yea, "too freaking bad" for them. Maybe you were lucky not to be one of them. Maybe as some idiots claimed "they should have killed more of them". Maybe you and your friends would have part of the "more". The shots were indiscriminate as it pertained to "longhairs" or left wings or right wings or chicken wings. They killed or maimed whomever was in their path.
The ROTC building was torched on a Saturday night, I believe it was.
But no, people had no idea why the National Guard was called in?
pfft.
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or, maybe you are being ignorant in trying to bait me on the subject.
The story is, the crowd was 20 yards away. You say the Natonal Guard shot into the crowd.
Then you admit the people shot were 60-200 yards away and not part of the crowd.
Which is it? Either spew more nonsense, or just make up your mind, whatever, Gip.
And, my "too freakin bad" obviously is said about the leftist hippies not liking the National Guard there,
but we did, so "too freakin bad".
I never said anything of the sort about the deaths and injuries. Those were tragic.
But the blame goes to the hateful and dangerous leftwing criminals on campus
forcing a violent confrontation by throwing rocks, and the Sat night before, burning down the ROTC
building. ROTC didn't do a freakin thing to deserve that. If you don't like the TRUTH of what I'm saying:
TOO FREAKIN BAD. You're wrong. The National Guard was called in rightly so, because a LOT of us were
not secure ... did you know we were threatened for walking past a sit-in to go to Mr. Frank's geology class?
The longhair said if we crossed their "line", they would kick our ass. My best friend's comedian brother, walking with us
to the same class, said "you and what hippie army?" to which the other sit in folks grabbed the smart mouth longhair
and told him to shut up.
From what I heard from those who were PART OF THE RALLIES, there were plans to burn down a few other buildings,
and that had to stop. Imho, it was THOSE people who knew that, and reported it, that ended up also causing the National Guard to have
to be there.
If I find the time, maybe I'll post some of the pictures I took before and after the shootings. Not much there, as I recollect.
But don't bother with "haha you are a jerk because you made light of the deaths, etc" to try to feeble get the upper hand.
Anybody who read what I posted knows better.
-
Furthermore, the anti war movement on campus contributed to the CONTINUING of the stupidly run war,
by ALIENATING the MIDDLE CLASS from the idea that the war should end.
That, and the anti-war movement contributed to encouraging the enemy to continue to kill American soldiers
by any means necessary, since Jane "traitor" Fonda, George "traitor" McGovern and the anti war movement so
avidly embraced their propaganda.
Which, was the subject of a debate I won in some speech class a whole year later, around May 4th. I had only 3 folks in class
agreeing with me on that subject before we debated, and I went against a smelly longhair angry hippie who had spoken er... yelled at
one of the rallies. After the debate was over, I had most of the entire class on my side. His buddies were making fun of him.
"Dude, he just kicked you ass about the movement, man....." and they'd laugh.
Well, after we walked out of class, he grabbed me and asked where I lived, because I was a pig and part of the problem,
and they were going to find me and &*^&^%$, and his friends pulled him away from me and told him he was crazy.....
so, I was sitting in the old student union, and a lady close friend came to my booth, and sat down and asked me how
things were going. I told her "great" and told her what happened. She said for me to stay there, and she'd be back.
?So, I sat there doing my homework, etc, having lunch, and she came back. She said I'd be fine, but to be careful for
going home that same day.
well, the next day, I was walking in the hallway of the student union, and this same guy who threatened me walked through a door,
and saw me... stopped right quick, kinda waved, quietly said "hi, man" and turned around and quickly walked the other direction.
So, I'm sitting in the student union later (stupid two hour break between classes) and my friend came in, and happily sat next
to me, and asked how I was doin. I told her what happened, and squinted at her and asked what she did, what that was all about.
She said I was fine, he'd be no problem and she couldn't tell me. I tried to tease her into telling me, but she just grinned,
said she never could tell anybody, kissed me on the cheek and left.
And she never did tell me, dammit. So, don't defend all those "peace loving students:" who were "oppressed by the Guard" on May 4th.
Some of them made the tragedy of May 4th happen, they just didn't think the Guard had real bullets in their guns, which I wish
they hadn't of had.
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or, maybe you are being ignorant in trying to bait me on the subject.
The story is, the crowd was 20 yards away. You say the Natonal Guard shot into the crowd.
Then you admit the people shot were 60-200 yards away and not part of the crowd.
Which is it? Either spew more nonsense, or just make up your mind, whatever, Gip.
And, my "too freakin bad" obviously is said about the leftist hippies not liking the National Guard there,
but we did, so "too freakin bad".
I never said anything of the sort about the deaths and injuries. Those were tragic.
But the blame goes to the hateful and dangerous leftwing criminals on campus
forcing a violent confrontation by throwing rocks, and the Sat night before, burning down the ROTC
building. ROTC didn't do a freakin thing to deserve that. If you don't like the TRUTH of what I'm saying:
TOO FREAKIN BAD. You're wrong. The National Guard was called in rightly so, because a LOT of us were
not secure ... did you know we were threatened for walking past a sit-in to go to Mr. Frank's geology class?
The longhair said if we crossed their "line", they would kick our ass. My best friend's comedian brother, walking with us
to the same class, said "you and what hippie army?" to which the other sit in folks grabbed the smart mouth longhair
and told him to shut up.
From what I heard from those who were PART OF THE RALLIES, there were plans to burn down a few other buildings,
and that had to stop. Imho, it was THOSE people who knew that, and reported it, that ended up also causing the National Guard to have
to be there.
If I find the time, maybe I'll post some of the pictures I took before and after the shootings. Not much there, as I recollect.
But don't bother with "haha you are a jerk because you made light of the deaths, etc" to try to feeble get the upper hand.
Anybody who read what I posted knows better.
or, maybe you are being ignorant in trying to bait me on the subject.
The story is, the crowd was 20 yards away. You say the Natonal Guard shot into the crowd.
Then you admit the people shot were 60-200 yards away and not part of the crowd.
Which is it? Either spew more nonsense, or just make up your mind, whatever, Gip.
I don't think I am the one chasing my tail. That would be your apparent duty. I only know this: I have been to the scene. I know where the Guard stop and fired....next to the pagoda. I have seen the location of where they have marked where the bodies fell. The nearest one was at least 75 yards away from the firing point. I have seen the videos and I can use common sense to tell how far away the nearest group was that was fired at. That was probably about 60 yards. The Guard shot in the direction of the crowd/group, whatever you want to call it...and something like 14 or so were hit.
Honestly, I am not sure what it is about that statement you disagree with. Unless you are just disagreeing to be disagreeable.
And, my "too freakin bad" obviously is said about the leftist hippies not liking the National Guard there,
but we did, so "too freakin bad".
Who are "we"? Did you have a mouse in your pocket?
I never said anything of the sort about the deaths and injuries. Those were tragic.
But the blame goes to the hateful and dangerous leftwing criminals on campus
forcing a violent confrontation by throwing rocks, and the Sat night before, burning down the ROTC
building. ROTC didn't do a freakin thing to deserve that.
Show me where I ever disputed the fact that the guard was there for some other reason than the fact that the ROTC building was there? Because of the burning of that building there certainly was a justifiable reason to put some sort of police style force on the scene. That doesn't mean that stopping, dropping and shooting unarmed civilians was justified? (Somehow I think you do) Like I said, I think the one boy who was killed was a ROTC member himself. A couple of others were just students going to class. Most of the crowd were just onlookers out for a spree on a beautiful spring day.
If you don't like the TRUTH of what I'm saying:
TOO FREAKIN BAD. You're wrong. The National Guard was called in rightly so, because a LOT of us were
not secure ... did you know we were threatened for walking past a sit-in to go to Mr. Frank's geology class?
The longhair said if we crossed their "line", they would kick our ass. My best friend's comedian brother, walking with us
to the same class, said "you and what hippie army?" to which the other sit in folks grabbed the smart mouth longhair
and told him to shut up.
From what I heard from those who were PART OF THE RALLIES, there were plans to burn down a few other buildings,
and that had to stop. Imho, it was THOSE people who knew that, and reported it, that ended up also causing the National Guard to have
to be there.
If I find the time, maybe I'll post some of the pictures I took before and after the shootings. Not much there, as I recollect.
But don't bother with "haha you are a jerk because you made light of the deaths, etc" to try to feeble get the upper hand.
Anybody who read what I posted knows better.
-
Furthermore, the anti war movement on campus contributed to the CONTINUING of the stupidly run war,
by ALIENATING the MIDDLE CLASS from the idea that the war should end.
That, and the anti-war movement contributed to encouraging the enemy to continue to kill American soldiers
by any means necessary, since Jane "traitor" Fonda, George "traitor" McGovern and the anti war movement so
avidly embraced their propaganda.
Which, was the subject of a debate I won in some speech class a whole year later, around May 4th. I had only 3 folks in class
agreeing with me on that subject before we debated, and I went against a smelly longhair angry hippie who had spoken er... yelled at
one of the rallies. After the debate was over, I had most of the entire class on my side. His buddies were making fun of him.
"Dude, he just kicked you ass about the movement, man....." and they'd laugh.
Well, after we walked out of class, he grabbed me and asked where I lived, because I was a pig and part of the problem,
and they were going to find me and &*^&^%$, and his friends pulled him away from me and told him he was crazy.....
so, I was sitting in the old student union, and a lady close friend came to my booth, and sat down and asked me how
things were going. I told her "great" and told her what happened. She said for me to stay there, and she'd be back.
?So, I sat there doing my homework, etc, having lunch, and she came back. She said I'd be fine, but to be careful for
going home that same day.
well, the next day, I was walking in the hallway of the student union, and this same guy who threatened me walked through a door,
and saw me... stopped right quick, kinda waved, quietly said "hi, man" and turned around and quickly walked the other direction.
So, I'm sitting in the student union later (stupid two hour break between classes) and my friend came in, and happily sat next
to me, and asked how I was doin. I told her what happened, and squinted at her and asked what she did, what that was all about.
She said I was fine, he'd be no problem and she couldn't tell me. I tried to tease her into telling me, but she just grinned,
said she never could tell anybody, kissed me on the cheek and left.
And she never did tell me, dammit. So, don't defend all those "peace loving students:" who were "oppressed by the Guard" on May 4th.
Some of them made the tragedy of May 4th happen, they just didn't think the Guard had real bullets in their guns, which I wish
they hadn't of had.
Furthermore, the anti war movement on campus contributed to the CONTINUING of the stupidly run war,
by ALIENATING the MIDDLE CLASS from the idea that the war should end.
That, and the anti-war movement contributed to encouraging the enemy to continue to kill American soldiers
by any means necessary, since Jane "traitor" Fonda, George "traitor" McGovern and the anti war movement so
avidly embraced their propaganda.
Which, was the subject of a debate I won in some speech class a whole year later, around May 4th. I had only 3 folks in class
agreeing with me on that subject before we debated, and I went against a smelly longhair angry hippie who had spoken er... yelled at
one of the rallies. After the debate was over, I had most of the entire class on my side. His buddies were making fun of him.
"Dude, he just kicked you ass about the movement, man....." and they'd laugh.
Well, after we walked out of class, he grabbed me and asked where I lived, because I was a pig and part of the problem,
and they were going to find me and &*^&^%$, and his friends pulled him away from me and told him he was crazy.....
so, I was sitting in the old student union, and a lady close friend came to my booth, and sat down and asked me how
things were going. I told her "great" and told her what happened. She said for me to stay there, and she'd be back.
?So, I sat there doing my homework, etc, having lunch, and she came back. She said I'd be fine, but to be careful for
going home that same day.
well, the next day, I was walking in the hallway of the student union, and this same guy who threatened me walked through a door,
and saw me... stopped right quick, kinda waved, quietly said "hi, man" and turned around and quickly walked the other direction.
So, I'm sitting in the student union later (stupid two hour break between classes) and my friend came in, and happily sat next
to me, and asked how I was doin. I told her what happened, and squinted at her and asked what she did, what that was all about.
She said I was fine, he'd be no problem and she couldn't tell me. I tried to tease her into telling me, but she just grinned,
said she never could tell anybody, kissed me on the cheek and left.
And she never did tell me, dammit. So, don't defend all those "peace loving students:" who were "oppressed by the Guard" on May 4th.
Some of them made the tragedy of May 4th happen, they just didn't think the Guard had real bullets in their guns, which I wish
they hadn't of had.
. All I know is that anyone that goes around calling everyone they have a political difference with a "traitor" Is a person I instantly dismiss in terms of having any credibility.
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Jane "traitor" Fonda and George "traitor" McGovern?
I didn't JUST have a political difference with them.
I have no respect for them as human beings because of their ACTIONS and their anti-American effort rhetoric that
demoralized our troops, and uplifted THEIR troops.
If you don't get that, then there isn't much you are going to learn, if you won't listen.
You have been to the site, I was THERE that DAY.
And anybody who uses the silly "Who are "we"? Did you have a mouse in your pocket?"
apparently doesn't have the credibility to respect difference of opinions. I have already stated
before that, that "we" were there, my best friend, and his brother, and other friends.
WE WERE GLAD THE NATIONAL GUARD WAS THERE.
Anybody who is sincere, can read that I clearly said the shootings were tragic, and I would have preferred the
Guardsmen to have plastic bullets.
The leftist hippies were throwing rocks. Those that WERE throwing rocks were NOT UNARMED.
Face it, Gip - the hippies and their asinine rallies not only hurt the protesters who were SINCERE because
they had friends/family loved ones in the war... they also alienated the middle class from acting to stop the war,
they alienated a lot of regular students who thought their approach was extremely unAmerican and dirty and uncalled for.
I believe this from my personal experiences that DAY, and the couple of years that followed.
I hope you enjoyed your educational visit to the campus and had a nice tour. @@
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Well, as I mentioned before, you are by NO means the only person who I know who was there. I have had perspective from both sides...and from neutral people. My next door neighbor was also "there on the day"...and was just a student going from one class to another and who was curious about what was going on. I worked for 5 years with....and am still friends with one of the guardsmen who was "there on the day" (he was not in the shooting group). One of the guys that was shot lives 2 blocks from where I sit right now. (so, actually I am perhaps the one with the more reasoned view on the matter...taking my perspective as a more neutral party)
And yes, anyone who would claim that George McGovern, who was a WWII veteran, a U.S. Senator for many years, a candidate for President of the United States does INDEED deserve instant dismissal of any credibility. Again, because I saw both sides of that issue. My ass was on the line probably more than yours was in terms of having to go fight in that war....and FYI, I was willing to go if I had to. Thank goodness that was the one lottery I have won in my life.
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Gip,
There are all sorts of perceptions about it. Of course, there are folks who see it differently.
But our view was right there, and I am just telling you, that my perceptions are based on continued experiences
for a couple of years after that day.
Mcgovern had a solid service record, that's good.
But if he commited murder, rape, etc, later on in life, it never happened because he was a veteran?
Mcgovern and Fonda are two of the people that NONE of us respected FOR THEIR ANTI-AMERICAN
politics during the Vietnam war. Mcgovern was a bigmouth punk about it, and losing the election as he did, was
justice served.
McGovern was a snide, hateful, and self-defeating politician that used the Vietnam War as his hopeful ride to the WH.
Most of America didn't buy it.
Odd, some people defend Mcgovern, etc, but to criticize Obamao now, well, THAT is "sedition".
I'm glad you won the lottery, Gip, and came back, cranky and all.
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