Hello, Niner fan here.
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The "city of San Francisco" don't mean dick. Did you see the list I gave of those other teams that don't play inside their cities limits? Perhaps you are too young to remember, but the San Francisco Warriors played in the Cow Palace....in Daly City...which is contiguous to Frisco (yes, I know, you don't like it called that).
In your view would that be wrong? What if the Niners moved to Daly city?
I know all that. I didn't come here to have a discussion with Browns fans about distances. I just wanted to know some facts about your experience of a move. You gave me some info in your previous post. Thank you!
To me, the only person who REALLY should care if the team is actually inside the SF city limits is the SF City Treasurer, as the city they are located in gets the income tax revenue. Are you that person?
Another example: The Browns actually spend all of about 24 hours of their work year inside the City of Cleveland. The three hours of their 8 home games a year. The other 1900 hours or so of their year is spent in the City of Berea where their offices and training facilities are located. Should we be upset that those offices and facilities are not inside the Cleveland City limits? No one here seems to care.
The 49ers headquarters are located in Santa Clara and have been for some decades. That's not the point. Wouldn't you be upset if your current owners would move the games to Berea?
I know all that. I didn't come here to have a discussion with Browns fans about distances. I just wanted to know some facts about your experience of a move. You gave me some info in your previous post. Thank you!
The 49ers headquarters are located in Santa Clara and have been for some decades. That's not the point. Wouldn't you be upset if your current owners would move the games to Berea?
Um… no. If the alternatives were the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Browns playing out of Berea or Akron, I’d take the Cleveland Browns every time.
I think part of most of our confusion with your question doesn’t have much to do with actual distance, but rather the fact that you are acting hurt, heartbroken, like you might lose your team. And we are trying to tell you that you aren’t. There is no reason to be up in arms about this, because you aren’t losing your home team. It isn’t even close to be similar to the Browns becoming the Baltimore Browns.
Now, trying to be understanding here, a Bay Area resident’s perception of “home team” may be a bit different considering that in at least two sports (NFL and MLB) both Oakland and San Francisco have a team. So being that the proximity is so close, it may feel like you are losing your beloved 49er’s to a rival city. I get that.
But you aren’t. The NFL will laugh at any potential lawsuit here. Lawyers and Judges too I’ll bet. Ask Gipper what his feelings would be as a magistrate.
Additionally, as a Browns fan (and I’m assuming Baltimore Colts, Dallas Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Cardinals, et. al) would be at least mildly insulted that you would equate a stadium in Santa Clara to their plights.
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I know all that. I didn't come here to have a discussion with Browns fans about distances. I just wanted to know some facts about your experience of a move. You gave me some info in your previous post. Thank you!
The 49ers headquarters are located in Santa Clara and have been for some decades. That's not the point. Wouldn't you be upset if your current owners would move the games to Berea?
Um… no. If the alternatives were the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Browns playing out of Berea or Akron, I’d take the Cleveland Browns every time.
I think part of most of our confusion with your question doesn’t have much to do with actual distance, but rather the fact that you are acting hurt, heartbroken, like you might lose your team. And we are trying to tell you that you aren’t. There is no reason to be up in arms about this, because you aren’t losing your home team. It isn’t even close to be similar to the Browns becoming the Baltimore Browns.
Now, trying to be understanding here, a Bay Area resident’s perception of “home team” may be a bit different considering that in at least two sports (NFL and MLB) both Oakland and San Francisco have a team. So being that the proximity is so close, it may feel like you are losing your beloved 49er’s to a rival city. I get that.
But you aren’t. The NFL will laugh at any potential lawsuit here. Lawyers and Judges too I’ll bet. Ask Gipper what his feelings would be as a magistrate.
Additionally, as a Browns fan (and I’m assuming Baltimore Colts, Dallas Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Cardinals, et. al) would be at least mildly insulted that you would equate a stadium in Santa Clara to their plights.
Um… no. If the alternatives were the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Browns playing out of Berea or Akron, I’d take the Cleveland Browns every time.
OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?
I think part of most of our confusion with your question doesn’t have much to do with actual distance, but rather the fact that you are acting hurt, heartbroken, like you might lose your team. And we are trying to tell you that you aren’t. There is no reason to be up in arms about this, because you aren’t losing your home team. It isn’t even close to be similar to the Browns becoming the Baltimore Browns.
I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.
Now, trying to be understanding here, a Bay Area resident’s perception of “home team” may be a bit different considering that in at least two sports (NFL and MLB) both Oakland and San Francisco have a team. So being that the proximity is so close, it may feel like you are losing your beloved 49er’s to a rival city. I get that.
The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...
But you aren’t. The NFL will laugh at any potential lawsuit here. Lawyers and Judges too I’ll bet. Ask Gipper what his feelings would be as a magistrate.
If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?
Additionally, as a Browns fan (and I’m assuming Baltimore Colts, Dallas Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Cardinals, et. al) would be at least mildly insulted that you would equate a stadium in Santa Clara to their plights.
But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.
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I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).
So I'll look up...
* The Cleveland Plain Dealer
* The Akron Beacon Journal
* Books published
* ESPN special on Art Modell
And also...
* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).
Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.
You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26
How were the lawsuits filed by the way?
I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).
So I'll look up...
* The Cleveland Plain Dealer
* The Akron Beacon Journal
* Books published
* ESPN special on Art Modell
And also...
* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).
Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.
You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26
How were the lawsuits filed by the way?
How were the lawsuits filed? As an attorney I can answer that question: they were handwritten or dictated, then given to a secretary to type. They were reviewed for completeness and typos. They were then copied. The original and the copies were then probably hand delivered by a law clerk to the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court where they were all time stamped and the filing fee paid. Then the Clerk of Court delivered them by certified mail to the named defendants.
(perhaps you may wish to rephrase your question?) If you want to see the actual case itself, you can search this link:
Though, to be honest, I have looked and don't find the case in there. It may have been filed in Federal Court.
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Um… no. If the alternatives were the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Browns playing out of Berea or Akron, I’d take the Cleveland Browns every time.
OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?
I think part of most of our confusion with your question doesn’t have much to do with actual distance, but rather the fact that you are acting hurt, heartbroken, like you might lose your team. And we are trying to tell you that you aren’t. There is no reason to be up in arms about this, because you aren’t losing your home team. It isn’t even close to be similar to the Browns becoming the Baltimore Browns.
I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.
Now, trying to be understanding here, a Bay Area resident’s perception of “home team” may be a bit different considering that in at least two sports (NFL and MLB) both Oakland and San Francisco have a team. So being that the proximity is so close, it may feel like you are losing your beloved 49er’s to a rival city. I get that.
The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...
But you aren’t. The NFL will laugh at any potential lawsuit here. Lawyers and Judges too I’ll bet. Ask Gipper what his feelings would be as a magistrate.
If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?
Additionally, as a Browns fan (and I’m assuming Baltimore Colts, Dallas Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Cardinals, et. al) would be at least mildly insulted that you would equate a stadium in Santa Clara to their plights.
But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.
OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?
I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.
The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...
If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?
But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.
Let me put it this way: the NFL consists of 32 teams. It grants, if you will a "Franchise" for each of those teams to a region. Not a specific city necessary, because they are at heart a marketing entity, and they go by essentially what is considered the Neilsen Corp.'s "Designated Market area" that nearly all entities reliant on radio and TV viewership and sponsorship utilize.
This is coterminus roughly with the "75 mile" radius that is considered an NFL franchises home territory....though some teams think of certain areas beyong that 75 mile radius as their "turf" (e.g. the turf of the Denver Broncos will be a much larger geographic area than say the turf of the Philadelphia Eagles.). the following is a photo of the SanFrancisco/San Jose/Oakland DMA:
Notice where San Fran is, and Santa Clara. All within the same DMA. The NFL probably doesn't care which particular community within that DMA the Stadium that team plays in is actually located. It would only be when you go outside those borders will you get some possible issues. Some DMA's will be granted more than one NFL franchise. New York is one, Baltimore/Washington another. The Bay area also. They will leave it up to the various team's sometimes to divvy up that territory.
I would venture to say that a gentleman's understanding exists that says that the Niners essentially have the SF side of the Bay AND the south Bay area of San Jose...and Santa Clara, while the Raiders claim the East Bay and get to go outside of that and attempt to control the Sacramento area, even though that is not within the actual DMA of the Raiders and Niners. Nevertheless, the fact that the Niners may play in either San Fran proper or in some other part of their own territory is neither here nor there to the league.
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In case you wanted to know, here is the DMA for the Cleveland area:
In reality, the Browns could have been located anywhere in the blue as far as the NFL is concerned. Cuyahoga County (and it was the county, not the City) just happened to build them a stadium inside the borders of the city of Cleveland.
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35 miles is nothing to get upset about. I think your cause will die because it just dosen't have a leg to stand on. You don't actually think that if they move to Santa Clara that you would be able to get another team in SF? So have one in Oakland, one in SF and one in Santa Clara? Never happen.
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Um… no. If the alternatives were the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Browns playing out of Berea or Akron, I’d take the Cleveland Browns every time.
OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?
I think part of most of our confusion with your question doesn’t have much to do with actual distance, but rather the fact that you are acting hurt, heartbroken, like you might lose your team. And we are trying to tell you that you aren’t. There is no reason to be up in arms about this, because you aren’t losing your home team. It isn’t even close to be similar to the Browns becoming the Baltimore Browns.
I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.
Now, trying to be understanding here, a Bay Area resident’s perception of “home team” may be a bit different considering that in at least two sports (NFL and MLB) both Oakland and San Francisco have a team. So being that the proximity is so close, it may feel like you are losing your beloved 49er’s to a rival city. I get that.
The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...
But you aren’t. The NFL will laugh at any potential lawsuit here. Lawyers and Judges too I’ll bet. Ask Gipper what his feelings would be as a magistrate.
If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?
Additionally, as a Browns fan (and I’m assuming Baltimore Colts, Dallas Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Cardinals, et. al) would be at least mildly insulted that you would equate a stadium in Santa Clara to their plights.
But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.
OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?
No problem at all. As long as they are the Cleveland Browns and still in the Cleveland Media Market, I'm ok with whereever they want to put their stadium.
Baltimore has everything to do with this conversation. Because the move to Baltimore is moving to an entirely different market. The two situations are not even close to being the same.
I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.
I didn't acknowledge distance is irrelevant. I said it was entirely relevant as regards the difference between Santa Clara/San Francisco and Cleveland/Baltimore.
The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...
Fair enough, but just because the Bay Area is a unique situation, does not mean that you guys get to lump this situation in with the Browns in 1995. Not close to the same situation.
If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?
Because the situation is not the same. It isn't a town rich in football history losing its team to another completely different media market for no other reason than Modell was a weenie. Why would Goodell stand in your corner, when he is actually advocating a new stadium in Santa Clara as a way for the 49'ers to get a new stadium. He actually is advocating the 49'ers and Raiders share a stadium. You won't have his support.
Further, if whatever entity (Stadium Commission) owns/operates the stadium and owns the stadium contract with the 49'ers is working in tandem with the team and the "Bay Area" to build a new stadium, then there won't be any legal issues. They will write a new contract between them that voids the old one. And the public really has no say in it.
Modell broke his contract with the City and the Stadium, and the City and Stadium had a new plan for Modell. Modell just decided to up and leave.
But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.
This statement is ludicrous. The difference is far more than 300+ miles.
I get the feeling that you are a high school or college student without your own vehicle or without a ton of money for gasoline, and you use public transportation, which is convenient for you to see the 49'ers in San Francisco when you want to. But driving to Santa Clara presents difficulty for you, and so you want to raise a stink.
I get that the "Bay Area" has a unique situation in that Oakland also has a team. So local perception makes it feel like moving to Santa Clara is losing your team to another city.
But the fact is, you are not losing your team to another city. When the difference is 38 miles, its not a loss. If they call themselves the San Francisco 49ers, and it takes you about 90 minutes or less (traffic may delay further) to get to the stadium, and the stadium is still in the San Francisco media market, you didn't lose your team.
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I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).
So I'll look up...
* The Cleveland Plain Dealer
* The Akron Beacon Journal
* Books published
* ESPN special on Art Modell
And also...
* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).
Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.
You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26
How were the lawsuits filed by the way?
How were the lawsuits filed? As an attorney I can answer that question: they were handwritten or dictated, then given to a secretary to type. They were reviewed for completeness and typos. They were then copied. The original and the copies were then probably hand delivered by a law clerk to the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court where they were all time stamped and the filing fee paid. Then the Clerk of Court delivered them by certified mail to the named defendants.
(perhaps you may wish to rephrase your question?) If you want to see the actual case itself, you can search this link:
Though, to be honest, I have looked and don't find the case in there. It may have been filed in Federal Court.
How were the lawsuits filed? As an attorney I can answer that question: they were handwritten or dictated, then given to a secretary to type. They were reviewed for completeness and typos. They were then copied. The original and the copies were then probably hand delivered by a law clerk to the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court where they were all time stamped and the filing fee paid. Then the Clerk of Court delivered them by certified mail to the named defendants.
(perhaps you may wish to rephrase your question?) If you want to see the actual case itself, you can search this link:
Though, to be honest, I have looked and don't find the case in there. It may have been filed in Federal Court.
The Gipper
My luck! I've stumbled across a lawman. YES!!!
So all that has to be done, in reality, is to file a lawsuit within the city limits of San Francisco against the Yorks (should measure J pass on june 8th) at any given county under the jurisdiction of the city of San Francisco, right? And all you need to do is pay a filing fee to get the lawsuit into the legal system.
A couple of follow up question...
1. Would a lawsuit like that carry more weight if more people would sign it or would multiple lawsuits filed under only one name be a better strategy?
2. Can lawsuits, in this case, be filed outside of the USA? If yes, will they carry the same weight?
3. Did the intervention of the NFL, at this stage (during the filing of the lawsuits), help bringing this up in priority in the courts around Cleveland (or was it just the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court)?
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35 miles is nothing to get upset about. I think your cause will die because it just dosen't have a leg to stand on. You don't actually think that if they move to Santa Clara that you would be able to get another team in SF? So have one in Oakland, one in SF and one in Santa Clara? Never happen.
35 miles is nothing to get upset about. I think your cause will die because it just dosen't have a leg to stand on. You don't actually think that if they move to Santa Clara that you would be able to get another team in SF? So have one in Oakland, one in SF and one in Santa Clara? Never happen.
No, I don't think we would get a new team ASAP. We probably would be inactive more than three years (until the next expansion). Fine! Better that than to lose the roots of what Tony and Vic Morabito founded in 1946.
But I did think you guys would understand that most of us would rather be inactive than to move away from the city.
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35 miles is nothing to get upset about. I think your cause will die because it just dosen't have a leg to stand on. You don't actually think that if they move to Santa Clara that you would be able to get another team in SF? So have one in Oakland, one in SF and one in Santa Clara? Never happen.
No, I don't think we would get a new team ASAP. We probably would be inactive more than three years (until the next expansion). Fine! Better that than to lose the roots of what Tony and Vic Morabito founded in 1946.
But I did think you guys would understand that most of us would rather be inactive than to move away from the city.
No, I don't think we would get a new team ASAP. We probably would be inactive more than three years (until the next expansion). Fine! Better that than to lose the roots of what Tony and Vic Morabito founded in 1946.
But I did think you guys would understand that most of us would rather be inactive than to move away from the city.
You actually think that at some point in the future (EVER?!!) that the Bay Area would support 3 teams when other markets like Sacramento, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Hartford, and all the others that the Gipper has researched would maybe not get one?
That is the ludicrous part of your concept. The Bay Area is not going to support 3 teams. Period. It has a hard enough time supporting two.
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OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?
No problem at all. As long as they are the Cleveland Browns and still in the Cleveland Media Market, I'm ok with whereever they want to put their stadium.
Baltimore has everything to do with this conversation. Because the move to Baltimore is moving to an entirely different market. The two situations are not even close to being the same.
I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.
I didn't acknowledge distance is irrelevant. I said it was entirely relevant as regards the difference between Santa Clara/San Francisco and Cleveland/Baltimore.
The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...
Fair enough, but just because the Bay Area is a unique situation, does not mean that you guys get to lump this situation in with the Browns in 1995. Not close to the same situation.
If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?
Because the situation is not the same. It isn't a town rich in football history losing its team to another completely different media market for no other reason than Modell was a weenie. Why would Goodell stand in your corner, when he is actually advocating a new stadium in Santa Clara as a way for the 49'ers to get a new stadium. He actually is advocating the 49'ers and Raiders share a stadium. You won't have his support.
Further, if whatever entity (Stadium Commission) owns/operates the stadium and owns the stadium contract with the 49'ers is working in tandem with the team and the "Bay Area" to build a new stadium, then there won't be any legal issues. They will write a new contract between them that voids the old one. And the public really has no say in it.
Modell broke his contract with the City and the Stadium, and the City and Stadium had a new plan for Modell. Modell just decided to up and leave.
But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.
This statement is ludicrous. The difference is far more than 300+ miles.
I get the feeling that you are a high school or college student without your own vehicle or without a ton of money for gasoline, and you use public transportation, which is convenient for you to see the 49'ers in San Francisco when you want to. But driving to Santa Clara presents difficulty for you, and so you want to raise a stink.
I get that the "Bay Area" has a unique situation in that Oakland also has a team. So local perception makes it feel like moving to Santa Clara is losing your team to another city.
But the fact is, you are not losing your team to another city. When the difference is 38 miles, its not a loss. If they call themselves the San Francisco 49ers, and it takes you about 90 minutes or less (traffic may delay further) to get to the stadium, and the stadium is still in the San Francisco media market, you didn't lose your team.
No problem at all. As long as they are the Cleveland Browns and still in the Cleveland Media Market, I'm ok with whereever they want to put their stadium.
OK, fine. Who am I to argue with you?
Baltimore has everything to do with this conversation. Because the move to Baltimore is moving to an entirely different market. The two situations are not even close to being the same.
So what you're saying is that 'market and 'distance' are factors more important than 'history' and 'legacy' only because someone with power says so?
I didn't acknowledge distance is irrelevant. I said it was entirely relevant as regards the difference between Santa Clara/San Francisco and Cleveland/Baltimore.
It IS irrelevant because Ohio is not California and especially not NorCal! Can you get to another state if you travel some 40 miles?
Fair enough, but just because the Bay Area is a unique situation, does not mean that you guys get to lump this situation in with the Browns in 1995. Not close to the same situation.
I'm not lumping it together. I'm asking for some help and advice. That's why I came here, to share my views. I can see a lot of similarities that can and should be exploited. No offense!
Because the situation is not the same. It isn't a town rich in football history losing its team to another completely different media market for no other reason than Modell was a weenie. Why would Goodell stand in your corner, when he is actually advocating a new stadium in Santa Clara as a way for the 49'ers to get a new stadium. He actually is advocating the 49'ers and Raiders share a stadium. You won't have his support.
San Francisco is rich in pioneering. The 49ers were the first Pro sports team in California. Tony Morabito, when shot down by the NFL at time, didn't give up. Besides, just because Goodell gives his support to the Yorks and Santa Clara doesn't mean he can't stand in San Francisco's corner and say "Yes, you do have a point".
Further, if whatever entity (Stadium Commission) owns/operates the stadium and owns the stadium contract with the 49'ers is working in tandem with the team and the "Bay Area" to build a new stadium, then there won't be any legal issues. They will write a new contract between them that voids the old one. And the public really has no say in it.
Modell broke his contract with the City and the Stadium, and the City and Stadium had a new plan for Modell. Modell just decided to up and leave.
All cities have a say in it if another city/state wants to you their name. Some don't matter like New Jersey doesn't matter the Giants and the Jets call themselves New York. But that's their choice and not a rule. The city of San Francisco should easily be able to say that if they want the team they have to change their name.
I get the feeling that you are a high school or college student without your own vehicle or without a ton of money for gasoline, and you use public transportation, which is convenient for you to see the 49'ers in San Francisco when you want to. But driving to Santa Clara presents difficulty for you, and so you want to raise a stink.
Not so. I'm 33 years old. I'm a business owner living 6 months a year outside of the USA.
I get that the "Bay Area" has a unique situation in that Oakland also has a team. So local perception makes it feel like moving to Santa Clara is losing your team to another city.
The Oakland Raiders have nothing to do with it. This about the history and legacy of the Niners.
But the fact is, you are not losing your team to another city. When the difference is 38 miles, its not a loss. If they call themselves the San Francisco 49ers, and it takes you about 90 minutes or less (traffic may delay further) to get to the stadium, and the stadium is still in the San Francisco media market, you didn't lose your team.
Yes we are. We are losing the team down to greed. It's a different city anyway you slice it.
I didn't want this kind of discussion.
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How were the lawsuits filed? As an attorney I can answer that question: they were handwritten or dictated, then given to a secretary to type. They were reviewed for completeness and typos. They were then copied. The original and the copies were then probably hand delivered by a law clerk to the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court where they were all time stamped and the filing fee paid. Then the Clerk of Court delivered them by certified mail to the named defendants.
(perhaps you may wish to rephrase your question?) If you want to see the actual case itself, you can search this link:
Though, to be honest, I have looked and don't find the case in there. It may have been filed in Federal Court.
The Gipper
My luck! I've stumbled across a lawman. YES!!!
So all that has to be done, in reality, is to file a lawsuit within the city limits of San Francisco against the Yorks (should measure J pass on june 8th) at any given county under the jurisdiction of the city of San Francisco, right? And all you need to do is pay a filing fee to get the lawsuit into the legal system.
A couple of follow up question...
1. Would a lawsuit like that carry more weight if more people would sign it or would multiple lawsuits filed under only one name be a better strategy?
2. Can lawsuits, in this case, be filed outside of the USA? If yes, will they carry the same weight?
3. Did the intervention of the NFL, at this stage (during the filing of the lawsuits), help bringing this up in priority in the courts around Cleveland (or was it just the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court)?
The Gipper
My luck! I've stumbled across a lawman. YES!!!
So all that has to be done, in reality, is to file a lawsuit within the city limits of San Francisco against the Yorks (should measure J pass on june 8th) at any given county under the jurisdiction of the city of San Francisco, right? And all you need to do is pay a filing fee to get the lawsuit into the legal system.
A couple of follow up question...
1. Would a lawsuit like that carry more weight if more people would sign it or would multiple lawsuits filed under only one name be a better strategy?
2. Can lawsuits, in this case, be filed outside of the USA? If yes, will they carry the same weight?
3. Did the intervention of the NFL, at this stage (during the filing of the lawsuits), help bringing this up in priority in the courts around Cleveland (or was it just the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court)?
You have got to be kidding me. Asking for legal advice like that on an open forum? I should charge you! Nevertheless, I will give you a nickel's worth of free advice:
1. The first thing you have to have is standing to file a lawsuit. It doesn't matter how many people are involved. The City of Cleveland had a written lease agreement signed by the Cleveland Browns and Art Modell with the City as the other signatory to the contract. Do YOU or anyone you know have a written contract signed between yourself and the Yorks which obligates them to play their games inside the city limits of San Francisco.
If you don't have that your lawsuit papers can be put to better use lining a birdcage.
2. WTF are you talking about filing it outside the US? It would carry NO weight being filed outside the US. It has to be filed in the jurisdiction that is the situs of the action. On what planet did you come up with that question.
3. The NFL's intervention in the Browns case was to serve as a facilitor to come up with a negotiated settlement. The final settlement to keep the Browns franchise in Cleveland together with its history etc. to be reactivated in a few years, to grant a new franchise to Baltimore and Modell, and to let him then take his jock straps and toilet seat with him was massaged through back and forth talks designed to keep the case OUT of the court and a trial. It had nothing to do with setting any kind of priority on the court's docket.
Sorry kid, you are grasping at straws. Stay the F*** out of the court's. If anyone is going to file a suit, leave it to the City of San Francisco. Unless YOU are the Mayor of San Francisco, stay out of it. Your best bet: Have the city of San Francisco build a new Stadium for the Niners. And put a lot of cash in the York's pocket. That is how you will keep them inside San Fran proper.
Otherwise, you can go get signatures protesting the Niners move. Then go get that birdcage and put your petition there.
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No problem at all. As long as they are the Cleveland Browns and still in the Cleveland Media Market, I'm ok with whereever they want to put their stadium.
OK, fine. Who am I to argue with you?
Baltimore has everything to do with this conversation. Because the move to Baltimore is moving to an entirely different market. The two situations are not even close to being the same.
So what you're saying is that 'market and 'distance' are factors more important than 'history' and 'legacy' only because someone with power says so?
I didn't acknowledge distance is irrelevant. I said it was entirely relevant as regards the difference between Santa Clara/San Francisco and Cleveland/Baltimore.
It IS irrelevant because Ohio is not California and especially not NorCal! Can you get to another state if you travel some 40 miles?
Fair enough, but just because the Bay Area is a unique situation, does not mean that you guys get to lump this situation in with the Browns in 1995. Not close to the same situation.
I'm not lumping it together. I'm asking for some help and advice. That's why I came here, to share my views. I can see a lot of similarities that can and should be exploited. No offense!
Because the situation is not the same. It isn't a town rich in football history losing its team to another completely different media market for no other reason than Modell was a weenie. Why would Goodell stand in your corner, when he is actually advocating a new stadium in Santa Clara as a way for the 49'ers to get a new stadium. He actually is advocating the 49'ers and Raiders share a stadium. You won't have his support.
San Francisco is rich in pioneering. The 49ers were the first Pro sports team in California. Tony Morabito, when shot down by the NFL at time, didn't give up. Besides, just because Goodell gives his support to the Yorks and Santa Clara doesn't mean he can't stand in San Francisco's corner and say "Yes, you do have a point".
Further, if whatever entity (Stadium Commission) owns/operates the stadium and owns the stadium contract with the 49'ers is working in tandem with the team and the "Bay Area" to build a new stadium, then there won't be any legal issues. They will write a new contract between them that voids the old one. And the public really has no say in it.
Modell broke his contract with the City and the Stadium, and the City and Stadium had a new plan for Modell. Modell just decided to up and leave.
All cities have a say in it if another city/state wants to you their name. Some don't matter like New Jersey doesn't matter the Giants and the Jets call themselves New York. But that's their choice and not a rule. The city of San Francisco should easily be able to say that if they want the team they have to change their name.
I get the feeling that you are a high school or college student without your own vehicle or without a ton of money for gasoline, and you use public transportation, which is convenient for you to see the 49'ers in San Francisco when you want to. But driving to Santa Clara presents difficulty for you, and so you want to raise a stink.
Not so. I'm 33 years old. I'm a business owner living 6 months a year outside of the USA.
I get that the "Bay Area" has a unique situation in that Oakland also has a team. So local perception makes it feel like moving to Santa Clara is losing your team to another city.
The Oakland Raiders have nothing to do with it. This about the history and legacy of the Niners.
But the fact is, you are not losing your team to another city. When the difference is 38 miles, its not a loss. If they call themselves the San Francisco 49ers, and it takes you about 90 minutes or less (traffic may delay further) to get to the stadium, and the stadium is still in the San Francisco media market, you didn't lose your team.
Yes we are. We are losing the team down to greed. It's a different city anyway you slice it.
I didn't want this kind of discussion.
It IS irrelevant because Ohio is not California and especially not NorCal! Can you get to another state if you travel some 40 miles?
I live in Minnesota (grew up in NE Ohio.) And yes, the Twin Cities (Minneapolis/St. Paul) is less than 40 miles from Wisconsin. Hudson, WI is considered part of the Twin Cities metropolitan footprint.
All cities have a say in it if another city/state wants to you their name. Some don't matter like New Jersey doesn't matter the Giants and the Jets call themselves New York. But that's their choice and not a rule. The city of San Francisco should easily be able to say that if they want the team they have to change their name.
Do you actually think the city proper San Francisco would do this (even if they could) on the threat that the team could move to LA or San Antonio? I doubt it. My bet is, that San Francisco would be glad to lend their name to the 49'ers should they choose to have a stadium in Santa Clara.
The Oakland Raiders have nothing to do with it. This about the history and legacy of the Niners.
Yes we are. We are losing the team down to greed. It's a different city anyway you slice it.
I didn't want this kind of discussion.
Sorry, not buying your rhetoric or the drama of the situation.
-
I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).
So I'll look up...
* The Cleveland Plain Dealer
* The Akron Beacon Journal
* Books published
* ESPN special on Art Modell
And also...
* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).
Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.
You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26
How were the lawsuits filed by the way?
I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).
So I'll look up...
* The Cleveland Plain Dealer
* The Akron Beacon Journal
* Books published
* ESPN special on Art Modell
And also...
* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).
Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.
You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26
How were the lawsuits filed by the way?
The book "False Start" by Terry Pluto is the best source on the move...and depressing.
I grew up less than 4 miles from Municipal Stadium, I know what you are thinking. The Niners should play temporarily in Berkley or Oakland after blowing up Candlestick & rebuilding.
-
They don't, and why the NFL won't do anything about the move if it happens.
You get in to wine country north of the city...so a move south probably helps more fans if there is any impact to fans.
-
The Gipper
My luck! I've stumbled across a lawman. YES!!!
So all that has to be done, in reality, is to file a lawsuit within the city limits of San Francisco against the Yorks (should measure J pass on june 8th) at any given county under the jurisdiction of the city of San Francisco, right? And all you need to do is pay a filing fee to get the lawsuit into the legal system.
A couple of follow up question...
1. Would a lawsuit like that carry more weight if more people would sign it or would multiple lawsuits filed under only one name be a better strategy?
2. Can lawsuits, in this case, be filed outside of the USA? If yes, will they carry the same weight?
3. Did the intervention of the NFL, at this stage (during the filing of the lawsuits), help bringing this up in priority in the courts around Cleveland (or was it just the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court)?
You have got to be kidding me. Asking for legal advice like that on an open forum? I should charge you! Nevertheless, I will give you a nickel's worth of free advice:
1. The first thing you have to have is standing to file a lawsuit. It doesn't matter how many people are involved. The City of Cleveland had a written lease agreement signed by the Cleveland Browns and Art Modell with the City as the other signatory to the contract. Do YOU or anyone you know have a written contract signed between yourself and the Yorks which obligates them to play their games inside the city limits of San Francisco.
If you don't have that your lawsuit papers can be put to better use lining a birdcage.
2. WTF are you talking about filing it outside the US? It would carry NO weight being filed outside the US. It has to be filed in the jurisdiction that is the situs of the action. On what planet did you come up with that question.
3. The NFL's intervention in the Browns case was to serve as a facilitor to come up with a negotiated settlement. The final settlement to keep the Browns franchise in Cleveland together with its history etc. to be reactivated in a few years, to grant a new franchise to Baltimore and Modell, and to let him then take his jock straps and toilet seat with him was massaged through back and forth talks designed to keep the case OUT of the court and a trial. It had nothing to do with setting any kind of priority on the court's docket.
Sorry kid, you are grasping at straws. Stay the F*** out of the court's. If anyone is going to file a suit, leave it to the City of San Francisco. Unless YOU are the Mayor of San Francisco, stay out of it. Your best bet: Have the city of San Francisco build a new Stadium for the Niners. And put a lot of cash in the York's pocket. That is how you will keep them inside San Fran proper.
Otherwise, you can go get signatures protesting the Niners move. Then go get that birdcage and put your petition there.
You have got to be kidding me. Asking for legal advice like that on an open forum? I should charge you!
Nevertheless, I will give you a nickel's worth of free advice:
1. The first thing you have to have is standing to file a lawsuit. It doesn't matter how many people are involved. The City of Cleveland had a written lease agreement signed by the Cleveland Browns and Art Modell with the City as the other signatory to the contract. Do YOU or anyone you know have a written contract signed between yourself and the Yorks which obligates them to play their games inside the city limits of San Francisco.
If you don't have that your lawsuit papers can be put to better use lining a birdcage.
That's where the shoe doesn't fit. No one really knows, not officially at least, how long the lease actually, goes. Some say 2013, some say 2014, some say 2016 and some say only Al Davis knows the truth since the time he helped the widows of Tony and Vic Morabito to find new owners of the Niners (late 70s) and found the DeBartolo's from Youngstown, Ohio. Some of Al's partners wanted tp buy the Niners at the time but the Morabito widows suggested a six-figure finders fee to Al if he could find them some new owners.
2. WTF are you talking about filing it outside the US? It would carry NO weight being filed outside the US. It has to be filed in the jurisdiction that is the situs of the action. On what planet did you come up with that question.
I meant filing at the appropriate place from outside the US. Not filing it outside of the US.
3. The NFL's intervention in the Browns case was to serve as a facilitor to come up with a negotiated settlement. The final settlement to keep the Browns franchise in Cleveland together with its history etc. to be reactivated in a few years, to grant a new franchise to Baltimore and Modell, and to let him then take his jock straps and toilet seat with him was massaged through back and forth talks designed to keep the case OUT of the court and a trial. It had nothing to do with setting any kind of priority on the court's docket.
I understand what you're saying but the lawsuits had to be a leverage to keep this case outside of the court, right? The hassel to go through all the lawsuits would be too costly and would just stall Modell's final get go to found the Baltimore Ravens. So theoretically speaking, the more you involve the courts, the more the NFL and the Yorks will be pissed? It will stall their plans, right?
Sorry kid, you are grasping at straws. Stay the F*** out of the court's. If anyone is going to file a suit, leave it to the City of San Francisco. Unless YOU are the Mayor of San Francisco, stay out of it. Your best bet: Have the city of San Francisco build a new Stadium for the Niners. And put a lot of cash in the York's pocket. That is how you will keep them inside San Fran proper.
Otherwise, you can go get signatures protesting the Niners move. Then go get that birdcage and put your petition there.
But the Yorks don't want to listen. The city of San Francisco passed a vote twice to build a new stadium. In 1997 and in 2006 when Lennar was given the go ahead to remodel Hunter's Point. They Yorks have pushed on with their agenda. Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?
-
You have got to be kidding me. Asking for legal advice like that on an open forum? I should charge you!
Nevertheless, I will give you a nickel's worth of free advice:
1. The first thing you have to have is standing to file a lawsuit. It doesn't matter how many people are involved. The City of Cleveland had a written lease agreement signed by the Cleveland Browns and Art Modell with the City as the other signatory to the contract. Do YOU or anyone you know have a written contract signed between yourself and the Yorks which obligates them to play their games inside the city limits of San Francisco.
If you don't have that your lawsuit papers can be put to better use lining a birdcage.
That's where the shoe doesn't fit. No one really knows, not officially at least, how long the lease actually, goes. Some say 2013, some say 2014, some say 2016 and some say only Al Davis knows the truth since the time he helped the widows of Tony and Vic Morabito to find new owners of the Niners (late 70s) and found the DeBartolo's from Youngstown, Ohio. Some of Al's partners wanted tp buy the Niners at the time but the Morabito widows suggested a six-figure finders fee to Al if he could find them some new owners.
2. WTF are you talking about filing it outside the US? It would carry NO weight being filed outside the US. It has to be filed in the jurisdiction that is the situs of the action. On what planet did you come up with that question.
I meant filing at the appropriate place from outside the US. Not filing it outside of the US.
3. The NFL's intervention in the Browns case was to serve as a facilitor to come up with a negotiated settlement. The final settlement to keep the Browns franchise in Cleveland together with its history etc. to be reactivated in a few years, to grant a new franchise to Baltimore and Modell, and to let him then take his jock straps and toilet seat with him was massaged through back and forth talks designed to keep the case OUT of the court and a trial. It had nothing to do with setting any kind of priority on the court's docket.
I understand what you're saying but the lawsuits had to be a leverage to keep this case outside of the court, right? The hassel to go through all the lawsuits would be too costly and would just stall Modell's final get go to found the Baltimore Ravens. So theoretically speaking, the more you involve the courts, the more the NFL and the Yorks will be pissed? It will stall their plans, right?
Sorry kid, you are grasping at straws. Stay the F*** out of the court's. If anyone is going to file a suit, leave it to the City of San Francisco. Unless YOU are the Mayor of San Francisco, stay out of it. Your best bet: Have the city of San Francisco build a new Stadium for the Niners. And put a lot of cash in the York's pocket. That is how you will keep them inside San Fran proper.
Otherwise, you can go get signatures protesting the Niners move. Then go get that birdcage and put your petition there.
But the Yorks don't want to listen. The city of San Francisco passed a vote twice to build a new stadium. In 1997 and in 2006 when Lennar was given the go ahead to remodel Hunter's Point. They Yorks have pushed on with their agenda. Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?
Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?
Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.
-
I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).
So I'll look up...
* The Cleveland Plain Dealer
* The Akron Beacon Journal
* Books published
* ESPN special on Art Modell
And also...
* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).
Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.
You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26
How were the lawsuits filed by the way?
The book "False Start" by Terry Pluto is the best source on the move...and depressing.
I grew up less than 4 miles from Municipal Stadium, I know what you are thinking. The Niners should play temporarily in Berkley or Oakland after blowing up Candlestick & rebuilding.
The book "False Start" by Terry Pluto is the best source on the move...and depressing.
I grew up less than 4 miles from Municipal Stadium, I know what you are thinking. The Niners should play temporarily in Berkley or Oakland after blowing up Candlestick & rebuilding.
Thanks man! I appreciate it.
-
Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?
Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.
Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.
But screw the coaches and players. They are no good. It's been downhill for the Niners since Mariucci was fired by John York. This current organization might win the NFC West, TOPS! And that's only because Kurt Warner will retire. Imagine how pathetic...being held up by Kurt Warner, a 39 year old. Few actually care.
-
Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.
But screw the coaches and players. They are no good. It's been downhill for the Niners since Mariucci was fired by John York. This current organization might win the NFC West, TOPS! And that's only because Kurt Warner will retire. Imagine how pathetic...being held up by Kurt Warner, a 39 year old. Few actually care.
But screw the coaches and players. They are no good. It's been downhill for the Niners since Mariucci was fired by John York. This current organization might win the NFC West, TOPS! And that's only because Kurt Warner will retire. Imagine how pathetic...being held up by Kurt Warner, a 39 year old. Few actually care.
I think Singletary is a great coach. He is slowly turning your organization around.
Marriucci is a terrible coach. He's proved it elsewhere.
I think Smith will surprise you and your new OL will get great in a year or two.
But regardless your complaints about your owner, he can't be as bad as Davis or Snyder.
And regardless of how effective you think the organization is... the fact is, the owner pays the salaries of all who play/coach/run the team for them. As such, they have the right every American business man has, to make money.
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