Middle east palestinian Bias toward Israel the root cause?
-
Ha. Thanks.\ said:
Please re-read Alo's response to you if you are still having trouble. He can discuss this way more eloquently than I.One of the things I love about this board is that I end up defending a Palestinian in one thread & Israel in another. Hopefully, I've convinced a few people here that those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
-
\ said:
\ said:
We agree here. I just think there are reasons beyond the Holocaust as well.Including the fact that a majority of the enemies of Israel happen to hate our way of life just as much. Sometimes common enemies is enough...
That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).
They hate us because humans need someone to hate.
The Sheiks have trillions in oil the people have jack shit.
Looks like they're in bed with the big bad US.
(and they are)
People like Osama (and Hitler ) want power.
Like Hitler targeted the Jews Osama targets the west.
Hell boys look at American TV through their eyes. Every American throws money away while they have hot rocks and dirt.
So if it wastn't for the great satan they'd share in the riches.
Bullshit but it's human nature.
Ask yourself what WW2 Germans might say if polles about what would make them like the US or Russia more.
WSS
-
Ha. It's funny how two of the people ardently defending Israel here are Obama supporters.\ said:
lets just leave isreal while we are leaving iraq.I know what will save money lets leave every one alone and let them battle it out.
Maybe we can watch it live.
After an another obamination speach.
And if I had to guess, I'd say that Mr. Koa isn't an Obama supporter. Considering the anti-foreign tirade he just went on, I'm betting he's a Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul type.
-
\ said:
Ha. It's funny how two of the people ardently defending Israel here are Obama supporters.But remember, all Lefties go with the flow 100% of the time and cannot discern between what they really believe and what the Party tells them to believe.
Might I add that even when I agree with WSS on an issue, his explanations are fucking grating.
-
I'm sorry but when did I call Iran or Syria "non-violent"? I believe these are aggressive countries that don't serve our interest, but I believe Israel has a far more decorated history of violence and aggression than either. Shall I elaborate?
Maybe you should read into the USS Liberty. During the Six Day War, Israeli warplanes attacked the USS Liberty killing 34 US servicemen. Or perhaps the Sabra and Shatila Massacre. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) directed militiamen into the Lebanese villages of Sabra and Shatila killing upwards of 4,000 Lebanese men, women, and children. This massacre was blamed on the late Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. If he were to step foot into Hungary he would have been tried as a war criminal. What about Jonathan Pollard? He was a convicted of espionage for selling sensitive and classified US material at Israel's request. We can also look at Israel's history with the UN Security Council. They have 88 resolutions criticizing their violent and oppressive behavior... more than any other country. I'm sure you remember Israel's recent Hezbollah retaliation by completely grazing the infrastructure of Lebanon. I can go on and on. Even rogue countries like Iran haven't attacked another country with such malice.
Furthermore, what I meant was that Israel receives the most foreign aide compared to any other country. As of 1997, that aide was up to $75,000,000,000. Also, the total American taxpayer cost per Israeli is $24,000. Imagine what it is 10 years later! http://www.washington-report.org/html/u ... israel.htm
Like I said before, they do not serve any vital interests of the United States. As for your Intel comment, Israel's recent contribution to high-technology was fueled by the influx of American intelligence and aide over the past four decades and not internal innovation. What resource do they provide America besides tourism and creating distaste within the Arab community for us. Certainly no natural resources. I believe the US is more prone to terrorist attack due to our alliance with the country more than anything else... why you ask?
How exactly can we mediate the Israeli-Palestinian peace process when we are biased in all respects towards Israel? You can't expect Arabs to comply when their isn't a level playing field.
-
\ said:
Yes, that seems like a fair trade: 6 million slaughtered so that 600,000 could have a state\ said:
What's the point of supporting Israel? Because of the Holocaust? They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?
Actually, it wasn't even 600,000 in 1948. Well, it was, but then 6,000 Israelis lost their lives fighting off the invading Arab armies.
Instead of rolling your eyes maybe you should just chalk it down as a terrible event regarding human history instead of disregarding the fact Israel as a country serves us no purpose.
-How about the upwards of 40 million killed under Communist Mao Tse Tung?
-Over 20 million were killed under the Stalin regime.
-In Rwanda their Holocaust lasted for twelve years while the U.S. and Europe did nothing.
-The "Killing Fields" of Cambodia by the Communist Pol Pot consumed about 3-5 million people.
As you can see the Jewish Holocaust isn't the only tragic event to happen in our history.
-
\ said:
\ said:
They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?
Why you'd support regimes that despise democracy over ones that foster it is beyond me.
This is the second time I've been misinterpreted or misquoted in this thread alone. Where do I show support for regimes that despise democracy? I'm simply comparing Israel with said countries and showing you there is no difference in terms of aggressive behavior/violence.
Dude, seriously, visit Gaza or the West Bank where Palestinians dwell then stroll through the brick-lined streets of fashionable Tel Aviv. You'll see how Palestinians are strangled mentally and economically by Israeli sanctions, checkpoints, and apartheid behavior. Palestinians have played a negative role in the conflict as well, but the US hasn't taken effective steps to allow a level playing field where Arabs can feel "accepted".
-
\ said:
\ said:
That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).Wow. Your top customer that pays in advance for your product is now "stealing"? How well does that go over at a lunch?
I'm sure you're aware the CIA overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran (Mossadeq) in the 50's. Since it seems you don't know the reason, he wanted to nationalize the Iranian oil industry so foreigners, like us, couldn't get it as our usual steal price.
-
You said that Israel was violent, whereas Iran and Syria allegedly desired to commit violence.\ said:
I'm sorry but when did I call Iran or Syria "non-violent"?I believe these are aggressive countries that don't serve our interest, but I believe Israel has a far more decorated history of violence and aggression than either.
Okay, that's what I thought.Shall I elaborate?
Go ahead.Maybe you should read into the USS Liberty. During the Six Day War, Israeli warplanes attacked the USS Liberty killing 34 US servicemen.
My understanding is that was a tragic accident, though you may disagree.But even if you think it was intentional, it still proves my prove about Iran & Syria being far less friendly regimes. 241 US servicemen died in the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983. And Iran was directly implicated in that attack:
"Unknown to us at the time, the National Security Agency had made a diplomatic communications intercept on 26 September ... in which the Iranian Intelligence Service provided explicit instructions to the Iranian ambassador in Damascus (a known terrorist) to attack the Marines at Beirut International Airport," says Marine Col. Colonel Timothy J. Geraghty, writing in the latest issue of Proceedings, a publication of the U.S. Naval Institute.
And I do strongly disagree with your claim that Israel intentionally attacked a US ship. Even though US-Israeli relations weren't as close then as they are today, it would have made little strategic sense for Israel to attack a US ship while it was at war with Soviet-backed Arab regimes.Or perhaps the Sabra and Shatila Massacre. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) directed militiamen into the Lebanese villages of Sabra and Shatila killing upwards of 4,000 Lebanese men, women, and children. This massacre was blamed on the late Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. If he were to step foot into Hungary he would have been tried as a war criminal.
The Kahan Commission said Sharon was responsible for not preventing the violence, but it didn't say that he ordered the massacre. But it was a tragic episode in what became Israel's Vietnam, and I have no defense for Sharon's actions.What about Jonathan Pollard? He was a convicted of espionage for selling sensitive and classified US material at Israel's request.
Yes. Like the Lavon Affair, it was a rogue intelligence operation that should have never been pursued.By all accounts, Pollard is a strange individual. While he was in college, he told people that he was working for the Mossad. Hopefully, you won't use such a strange case to besmirch the American Jewish community, and you won't take it as an example of Israel's broader policy towards the US.
We can also look at Israel's history with the UN Security Council. They have 88 resolutions criticizing their violent and oppressive behavior... more than any other country. I'm sure you remember Israel's recent Hezbollah retaliation by completely grazing the infrastructure of Lebanon. I can go on and on. Even rogue countries like Iran haven't attacked another country with such malice.
The Lebanon War was a terrible error caused by ineffective leadership on the Israeli side, plus the assumption that the war could be prosecuted from the air (the IDF Chief of Staff at the time, Dan Halutz, was a former head of the IAF).However, I don't know if a war in which a few thousand civilians tragically died qualifies Israel for pariah status. And Iran's "human wave" attacks during the Iran-Iraq War deserve just as much condemnation, if not more.
In other words, I don't disagree with your condemnation of Israel's prosecution of the war, but I disagree with your singling out Israel's "malice" above all other nations.
-
I don't think anyone is saying that the Holocaust was the only tragic event to occur in history. In fact, I resent that assumption, which seems to be based on the idea that I would only recognize Jewish suffering. Perhaps it says more about you that you accuse me of looking at the world from a particularistic perspective, while at the same time you accuse Israel of being uniquely malicious.\ said:
Instead of rolling your eyes maybe you should just chalk it down as a terrible event regarding human history instead of disregarding the fact Israel as a country serves us no purpose.-How about the upwards of 40 million killed under Communist Mao Tse Tung?
-Over 20 million were killed under the Stalin regime.
-In Rwanda their Holocaust lasted for twelve years while the U.S. and Europe did nothing.
-The "Killing Fields" of Cambodia by the Communist Pol Pot consumed about 3-5 million people.
As you can see the Jewish Holocaust isn't the only tragic event to happen in our history.
Also, the fact that the int'l community hasn't kept to its promise of "Never Again" only further bolsters the case some here have made for Israel: namely, that there should be a Jewish state that serves as a refuge for those fleeing persecution.
In addition to the national interest arguments, I find that moral one compelling.
-
\ said:
Alo, I love your take on the situation, but damn if the hate (from both sides, really) doesn't run deep. I'm at the point where I think it runs too deep...Quite a few years ago, believe it or not, I was half in the bag very late at a downtown Copennhagen bar.
We were standing at the bar and the conversation at the time centered on just when the Arab-Israeli fighting would come to an end.
A Swedish journalist happened to overhear us and stated that he knew exactly when the fighting would stop: when there is one Jew and one Arab left and one of them shoots and kills the other.
Makes a lot of sense, unfortunately.
-
\ said:
\ said:
\ said:
As you can see the Jewish Holocaust isn't the only tragic event to happen in our history.
Who said that it is the only one?
Personally, I do believe Jews believe they have a monopoly on grief in modern times and that everything else pales in comparison.
This being said, America opened its arms to welcome a people that have been terrorized and stigmatized for thousands of years.
Many Jews live in the US. Unfortunately, the other atrocities you cited did not or does not include a people we are familiar with. That is a shame: that we turn our heads because we are not familiar with a people, but it appears to be true.
I also believe the US has a moral (Biblical) obligation to support Israel and protecting its right to exist. This being said, it does not mean that Israel has always been right. However, they have endured enough real and threatened attacks to warrant their sometimes-proactive measures.
Dividing Jerusalem and building a third Israeli Temple would be catastrophic, but that is a topic for another thread.
-
From my knowledge the attack of the Marine Corps in Beirut was carried out by Hezbollah and not the Iranian Army. Although likely an Iranian cell, Hezbollah isn't a wing of the Iranian military. Quite differently, actual Israeli warplanes bombarded a US naval ship for over two hours. Hardly a tragic accident... more of a tragic cover-up.
As for the Iran-Iraq War, Iranians were hardly the ones that should be condemned. Saddam dropped mustard gas and other chemical weaponry on Iranians while Iran retaliated with conventional warfare. As for the human wave attacks, why don't you condemn Japan as well for having Kamikaze pilots? I don't see the relevance in my Israel argument. Furthermore, it seems you should pursue a career in politics as "Foreign Relations Minister" or "Press Secretary" for Israel. You seem to generalize and play down everything I've stated with diplomatic precision. I'm aware Israel is a modern/beautiful country with a thriving tourism industry and a wealth of genuinely good people, however we do not need them they they do not need us.
And in case I've been misinterpreted, I believe Iran, North Korea, and other rogue states should be held responsible for their actions as well. The topic here is Israel, however, and most of the responses I'm getting is an intellectual re-phrase of "Well, Iran is bad too because..." Well, if you haven't noticed the US has had economic sanctions on Iran since 1979 and have also been contemplating air attacks on their nuclear facilities! This isn't the same scenario for Israel, is it? The major point here is that I haven't been offered any convincing responses to my belief that Israel is more of a liability than an asset to the US. It's simply a matter of the tail (AIPAC) wagging the dog (US). At the very least they should be treated at the same diplomatic level as say Mexico, "neutral." Not the current "lets bend over and let Israel take us for a ride because we love them so so much" position. As an informed American citizen, I believe it is utterly stupid.
We should probably agree to disagree on this, Alo.
-
\ said:
Furthermore, it seems you should pursue a career in politics as "Foreign Relations Minister" or "Press Secretary" for Israel. You seem to generalize and play down everything I've stated with diplomatic precision.
The major point here is that I haven't been offered any convincing responses to my belief that Israel is more of a liability than an asset to the US.
Let me be perfectly honest here. I'd compare our current support of Israel to the Laffer Curve in economics. Just like how taxation at a certain level results in less revenue, our strong support for Israel, both in terms of foreign aid & UN-SC vetoes, probably has resulted in a decrease in benefits for both countries. Because of our aid & security guarantees, Israel hasn't been forced to make some of the hard choices it needs to make on the Palestinian issue, as well as other issues. That hurts Israel's long-term security, and, by keeping the conflict going, it hurts ours as well.For that reason, I think pushing Israel towards peace & incrementally decreasing aid to Israel are both reasonable objectives. But because those objectives conflict (you can't push Israel to do something while decreasing its aid), I'd prefer that we focus on the former.
However, I don't agree with you assessment that the relationship serves no strategic objective, and I don't think we need a radical reorienting of our foreign policy. To use the Laffer Curve comparison again, there's a point in which decreasing our support for Israel would actually endanger Israel's security, which would damage our credibility & perhaps even our nat'l security.
-
Why did he dig this up?
-
Ghoolie's Rhetorical is a little over the top but I basically agree with him.
WSS
-
it really makes sense now about Obamas wish to have Israel "return to its pre -1967 borders". In the documentary movie 2016, “D’Souza explains how
our beloved president is really just an anti-colonialist - interested and shaped by the twisted political ambitions of his absent marxist / communist father Barack sr.....
Soooo, all you Obamamorons who thoughtlessly voted this guy into office now have a reason to give as to why Obama has no interest in middle east democracy,
and joining forces with those who seem hell bent on destabilizing the region? (muslim brotherhood- hamas, Iran backed hezbollah, and yes OP- the PLO- palestinians...)
Israel had her rights to the land given by the British in 1948 and earned by an independance war against a weaker enemy of collective arabs. The nation of Israel was born on
the same land as that of Ancient Israel.... and rightfully won by decisive military strength. Independance is a virtue worth fighting for.
So trying to understand this OP's reason to abandon Israel and stop funding her makes no sense to me either.... just to give a known terrorist enemy the PLO more land rights?
Why dont the neighboring Arab states take in these so called orphan misfits? And take your leader Obama back too imo
-
the nazis actually got their hate for the Jews from....Muslim extremists.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login