48,000 Murdered since 911
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Answer:
The guy who's smarter than the one who typed this:
" What they need is some stern talking to, huh? Maybe the ol' bootstraps lecture. That'll set them straight."
Go ahead.
Tell me what the Democrats do to promote minorities on an equal basis.
WSS
Steve, like we talked about many times before, your views on race relations and policy are stuck in the early 80s.
Somewhere between the cartoon of racist Republicans who yearn for the days of segregation and the cartoon of guilt-ridden Democrats who wake up in the morning looking to give minorities handouts so they can buy their votes and make everyone beholden to their government lies this huge spectrum called reality.
Let's try to live in that part, shall we?
For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't. You prefer the cartoons, like the ones you've typed on the rest of the page. And you've identified the real problem - liberals like me think blacks are inferior, and between that and the guilt and the desire to buy votes, that's why give them all that government cheese.
Welcome to 1980. I believe Taxi is on TV. If you'll excuse me.
And you've identified the real problem - liberals like me think blacks are inferior, and between that and the guilt and the desire to buy votes, that's why give them all that government cheese.
Finally an honest answer.
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For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't.
No I don't.
Because none of those things should be based on skin color.
And thet's exactly where your point fails.
When you use them as bribes for a particular group you are, in fact, racist in the true sense of the word.
When you promote tem as an attempt to repair the unfairness from "those other people" you encourage
If you say certain racial groups need extra help then you are in fact saying they are inferior in some way.
Real "racism" needs you to think one group is different based on race alone.
I don't think that.
Oh I'm sure there might be small differences but cultural and environmental circumstances override them.
It's the us v them you use everyday Heck that I think is bullshit.
Somebody doesn't want illegal immigration he must be a racist.
"Look Hispanics, these guys who want to obey the law hate you!!!
Vote for us."
That's what sucks Heck, and you know it.
WSS
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For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't.
No I don't.
Because none of those things should be based on skin color.
And thet's exactly where your point fails.
When you use them as bribes for a particular group you are, in fact, racist in the true sense of the word.
When you promote tem as an attempt to repair the unfairness from "those other people" you encourage
If you say certain racial groups need extra help then you are in fact saying they are inferior in some way.
Real "racism" needs you to think one group is different based on race alone.
I don't think that.
Oh I'm sure there might be small differences but cultural and environmental circumstances override them.
It's the us v them you use everyday Heck that I think is bullshit.
Somebody doesn't want illegal immigration he must be a racist.
"Look Hispanics, these guys who want to obey the law hate you!!!
Vote for us."
That's what sucks Heck, and you know it.
WSS
For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't.
No I don't.
Because none of those things should be based on skin color.
And thet's exactly where your point fails.
When you use them as bribes for a particular group you are, in fact, racist in the true sense of the word.
When you promote tem as an attempt to repair the unfairness from "those other people" you encourage
If you say certain racial groups need extra help then you are in fact saying they are inferior in some way.
Real "racism" needs you to think one group is different based on race alone.
I don't think that.
Oh I'm sure there might be small differences but cultural and environmental circumstances override them.
It's the us v them you use everyday Heck that I think is bullshit.
Somebody doesn't want illegal immigration he must be a racist.
"Look Hispanics, these guys who want to obey the law hate you!!!
Vote for us."
That's what sucks Heck, and you know it.
WSS
Do you realize how completely dishonest and misleading everything you write is?
Once again, none of this is what I think, or what any liberal I know thinks. It's just what you imagine they think. And oh, how angry these ideas you create in your head make you.
It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, and you instantly go back to the "bribe" nonsense, and how this is all racist, and us vs. them, because it's targeting people of a certain color. Even though I didn't mention targeting people of a certain color, and those programs have nothing to do with color. You just imagine that they do - and they don't - and then you ran with that. It's just laughable.
None of the programs I mentioned are targeted to specific minority groups other than the economically disadvantaged. Which ones are you suggesting are racist bribes? Pell Grants? Head Start? Community colleges?
What the hell are you talking about?
Then you make up something about how, in the eyes of liberals, someone who doesn't want illegal immigration must be a racist. And then you try and pretend that you don't view people differently because of their race, also laughable. You've written far too many things to try to pass that one off now, my friend.
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For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't.
No I don't.
Because none of those things should be based on skin color.
And thet's exactly where your point fails.
When you use them as bribes for a particular group you are, in fact, racist in the true sense of the word.
When you promote tem as an attempt to repair the unfairness from "those other people" you encourage
If you say certain racial groups need extra help then you are in fact saying they are inferior in some way.
Real "racism" needs you to think one group is different based on race alone.
I don't think that.
Oh I'm sure there might be small differences but cultural and environmental circumstances override them.
It's the us v them you use everyday Heck that I think is bullshit.
Somebody doesn't want illegal immigration he must be a racist.
"Look Hispanics, these guys who want to obey the law hate you!!!
Vote for us."
That's what sucks Heck, and you know it.
WSS
Do you realize how completely dishonest and misleading everything you write is?
Once again, none of this is what I think, or what any liberal I know thinks. It's just what you imagine they think. And oh, how angry these ideas you create in your head make you.
It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, and you instantly go back to the "bribe" nonsense, and how this is all racist, and us vs. them, because it's targeting people of a certain color. Even though I didn't mention targeting people of a certain color, and those programs have nothing to do with color. You just imagine that they do - and they don't - and then you ran with that. It's just laughable.
None of the programs I mentioned are targeted to specific minority groups other than the economically disadvantaged. Which ones are you suggesting are racist bribes? Pell Grants? Head Start? Community colleges?
What the hell are you talking about?
Then you make up something about how, in the eyes of liberals, someone who doesn't want illegal immigration must be a racist. And then you try and pretend that you don't view people differently because of their race, also laughable. You've written far too many things to try to pass that one off now, my friend.
It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, ......................
But, in many - if not most instances - the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
Anybody ever do a CBO on these programs?
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I guess Heck can't come up with anything that the Dems do or have done to promote minorities
on an equal basis.
Heck doesn't have a clue, but in libbie land, that means they have all the clues....
they just can't read them, and don't know where they are.
Clueless Mr. Jellybeans, that's Heck right there.
Oh, btw:
Yea you're about as funny as Cal. Kosar
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It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, ......................
But, in many - if not most instances - the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
Anybody ever do a CBO on these programs?
But, in many - if not most instances - the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
Anybody ever do a CBO on these programs?
What are you basing this on? Pell Grants don't help people afford college? Student loans? What are you talking about? Crime prevention programs don't work? Gang task forces don't work? Of course there are programs that don't give you any bang for the buck - D.A.R.E is a great example. But to sit from where you are and say, "Most of this stuff doesn't work" is just lazy. It'd be more accurate to say that you don't like the idea of them. But you really don't know whether all those things I listed work well enough to justify their expenditure, do you, John? That would require a lot of study, rather than a blanket ideological statement.
You'd have to do work like this. And this work doesn't suggest that none of these programs work. In fact, it's exactly the kind of approach you're asking for. For instance, according to most of the research, the most successful programs for kids are well-designed early education and intervention programs, because they've found that once a kid is behind in elementary school, it's really, really hard to get them to catch up. That's where you get the most bang for your buck.
Why make college loans more affordable, and Pell Grants more available? Because a college education means roughly a million dollars more in earnings over a lifetime than a typical high school grad. If you're looking to improve wealth and lower inequality, you want people who should go to college and want to go to college be able to afford to go to college. You shouldn't be stuck simply because you were born into a poor family, or because your parent(s) was/were laid off and the market tanked right when you were supposed to enroll.
These are the real issues government deals with. This is what is actually discussed in policy circles - getting your bang for your buck. What works, what doesn't. How do you address the problems of structural inequality? How do you address the problems of the urban poor?
Or we can reduce them to stupid "racist handouts for lazy people to buy votes" arguments like the ones Steve likes to push, which are just arguments born out of political and cultural resentments. They're not really relevant, unless we're running a talk radio show.
And the CBO scores the costs of every bill that affects the budget. They don't tell you whether or not they think it's worth it because those are value judgments. And Congress and the people who vote for them make those.
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For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't.
No I don't.
Because none of those things should be based on skin color.
And thet's exactly where your point fails.
When you use them as bribes for a particular group you are, in fact, racist in the true sense of the word.
When you promote tem as an attempt to repair the unfairness from "those other people" you encourage
If you say certain racial groups need extra help then you are in fact saying they are inferior in some way.
Real "racism" needs you to think one group is different based on race alone.
I don't think that.
Oh I'm sure there might be small differences but cultural and environmental circumstances override them.
It's the us v them you use everyday Heck that I think is bullshit.
Somebody doesn't want illegal immigration he must be a racist.
"Look Hispanics, these guys who want to obey the law hate you!!!
Vote for us."
That's what sucks Heck, and you know it.
WSS
Do you realize how completely dishonest and misleading everything you write is?
Once again, none of this is what I think, or what any liberal I know thinks. It's just what you imagine they think. And oh, how angry these ideas you create in your head make you.
It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, and you instantly go back to the "bribe" nonsense, and how this is all racist, and us vs. them, because it's targeting people of a certain color. Even though I didn't mention targeting people of a certain color, and those programs have nothing to do with color. You just imagine that they do - and they don't - and then you ran with that. It's just laughable.
None of the programs I mentioned are targeted to specific minority groups other than the economically disadvantaged. Which ones are you suggesting are racist bribes? Pell Grants? Head Start? Community colleges?
What the hell are you talking about?
Then you make up something about how, in the eyes of liberals, someone who doesn't want illegal immigration must be a racist. And then you try and pretend that you don't view people differently because of their race, also laughable. You've written far too many things to try to pass that one off now, my friend.
It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, and you instantly go back to the "bribe" nonsense, and how this is all racist, and us vs. them, because it's targeting people of a certain color. Even though I didn't mention targeting people of a certain color, and those programs have nothing to do with color.
Actually (and you must be too enraged to read clearly) we were talikng about why a minority member might want to be a Democrat.
I asked what the Democrats specifically offered to minorities that the Republicans didn't.
That was the list you gave me.
But you wanna cry because I point out the fact that some specific groups have more problems than others who have also had tough histories, I can't help you.
Or if I make fun of Ebonics which is a habit deserving of ridicule IMO.
(and spare me the "every or all" gag)
WSS
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For instance, we could talk about education reform, No Child Left Behind, Pell Grants, student loans, college admissions, community colleges, policing, drug policy and sentencing reform, Head Start, and a whole host of other programs whose overriding goal is to provide American citizens with some level of equal opportunity and safety.
But you don't.
No I don't.
Because none of those things should be based on skin color.
And thet's exactly where your point fails.
When you use them as bribes for a particular group you are, in fact, racist in the true sense of the word.
When you promote tem as an attempt to repair the unfairness from "those other people" you encourage
If you say certain racial groups need extra help then you are in fact saying they are inferior in some way.
Real "racism" needs you to think one group is different based on race alone.
I don't think that.
Oh I'm sure there might be small differences but cultural and environmental circumstances override them.
It's the us v them you use everyday Heck that I think is bullshit.
Somebody doesn't want illegal immigration he must be a racist.
"Look Hispanics, these guys who want to obey the law hate you!!!
Vote for us."
That's what sucks Heck, and you know it.
WSS
Do you realize how completely dishonest and misleading everything you write is?
Once again, none of this is what I think, or what any liberal I know thinks. It's just what you imagine they think. And oh, how angry these ideas you create in your head make you.
It's sort of hysterical how I list a bunch of programs that exist, at least in part, to help ensure opportunities for people who are economically disadvantaged, or kids who, by no fault of their own, grow up in high crime area, or areas with shitty schools, or can't afford college, and you instantly go back to the "bribe" nonsense, and how this is all racist, and us vs. them, because it's targeting people of a certain color. Even though I didn't mention targeting people of a certain color, and those programs have nothing to do with color. You just imagine that they do - and they don't - and then you ran with that. It's just laughable.
None of the programs I mentioned are targeted to specific minority groups other than the economically disadvantaged. Which ones are you suggesting are racist bribes? Pell Grants? Head Start? Community colleges?
What the hell are you talking about?
Then you make up something about how, in the eyes of liberals, someone who doesn't want illegal immigration must be a racist. And then you try and pretend that you don't view people differently because of their race, also laughable. You've written far too many things to try to pass that one off now, my friend.
And then you try and pretend that you don't view people differently because of their race, also laughable. You've written far too many things to try to pass that one off now, my friend.
And what did I say that is based on race itself and not culture?
Think hard.
Here's a tip.
Irish people choose to get drunk on St Patrick's day.
It is not bred into them by race.
WSS
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Heck, maybe the 'payback' curve is longer than I believe it should be.
I hear what you say, but I see what I see - more teenage pregnancy, a higher level of crime, increasing drop out rates, spiraling fatherless families, etc.
Sometimes, it seems like some like to measure the score in the first or secord quarter rather than waiting for the game to end.
I believe there are cultural problems in certain demographics that money, alone, can't mitigate. There is SOMETHING wrong somewhere and somehow - I don't claim to know.
However, to turn a blind eye to reality - as you like to say - and throwing money at a problem with other root causes doesn't make a lot of sense. I am not saying that we should not treat some of the symptoms but, the true cure lies with treating the 'disease'.
"God is great. Beer is good. People are crazy." -
And then you try and pretend that you don't view people differently because of their race, also laughable. You've written far too many things to try to pass that one off now, my friend.
And what did I say that is based on race itself and not culture?
Think hard.
Here's a tip.
Irish people choose to get drunk on St Patrick's day.
It is not bred into them by race.
WSS
And what did I say that is based on race itself and not culture?
Think hard.
Here's a tip.
Irish people choose to get drunk on St Patrick's day.
It is not bred into them by race.
WSS
You don't have to understand why what you've said in the past is racist. It's fine with me. But these types of rationalizations are lovely high school arguments. They don't explain why you repeatedly referred to urban blacks as illiterate welfare criminals. It certainly doesn't strike me as accurate or brilliant cultural commentary, no.
It's a crass, racist generalization born out of your overall animosity toward what you consider their "culture", which you obviously have no clue about, other than what you saw on COPS and MTV, back when they played NWA videos.
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Heck, maybe the 'payback' curve is longer than I believe it should be.
I hear what you say, but I see what I see - more teenage pregnancy, a higher level of crime, increasing drop out rates, spiraling fatherless families, etc.
Sometimes, it seems like some like to measure the score in the first or secord quarter rather than waiting for the game to end.
I believe there are cultural problems in certain demographics that money, alone, can't mitigate. There is SOMETHING wrong somewhere and somehow - I don't claim to know.
However, to turn a blind eye to reality - as you like to say - and throwing money at a problem with other root causes doesn't make a lot of sense. I am not saying that we should not treat some of the symptoms but, the true cure lies with treating the 'disease'.
Heck, maybe the 'payback' curve is longer than I believe it should be.
I hear what you say, but I see what I see - more teenage pregnancy, a higher level of crime, increasing drop out rates, spiraling fatherless families, etc.
Sometimes, it seems like some like to measure the score in the first or secord quarter rather than waiting for the game to end.
I believe there are cultural problems in certain demographics that money, alone, can't mitigate. There is SOMETHING wrong somewhere and somehow - I don't claim to know.
However, to turn a blind eye to reality - as you like to say - and throwing money at a problem with other root causes doesn't make a lot of sense. I am not saying that we should not treat some of the symptoms but, the true cure lies with treating the 'disease'.
The "throwing money at the problem" is another lazy way out. Nobody wants to "throw money at a problem." They want to address the problem, and sometimes that requires money.
Fixing your car requires money. But you wouldn't call getting a new set of tires and a new clutch "throwing money at the problem."
Fixing schools costs money too. Policing streets costs money. College costs a lot of money. Health care costs a lot of money.
I don't think chalking it up to "cultural problems" is a very good idea either. It's just an excuse not to do anything for the other, when the other is just your fellow American.
And if you have any belief in actual meritocracy, rather than the skewed system we have now, you would believe fervently in the idea of equality of opportunity, and to always strive to provide those who have less with the same shot, the same access, as those who have more.
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>>The "throwing money at the problem" is another lazy way out. Nobody wants to "throw money at a problem." They want to address the problem, and sometimes that requires money. Fixing your car requires money. But you wouldn't call getting a new set of tires and a new clutch "throwing money at the problem.">>
Yes, but there comes a point where I stop 'throwing money at it' and take another trail. It could be going to another mechanic, buying a new car, etc.
If it is cold in your house, do you recommend turning up the heat? What if the windows are open? How much heat/money do you want to throw at the problem when you haven't addressed the root cause?
Same analogy, although I do recognize we are talking about human beings and our collective futures.
>>Fixing schools costs money too. Policing streets costs money. College costs a lot of money. Health care costs a lot of money. >>
So does paying for programs that don't work, Heck.
The end result is what we see: more teenage pregnancies, more fatherless families, more crime, less moral character, etc.
Why is all this spiraling out of control???? Because we don't spend more money at them? I think not.
>>I don't think chalking it up to "cultural problems" is a very good idea either. It's just an excuse not to do anything for the other, when the other is just your fellow American. And if you have any belief in actual meritocracy, rather than the skewed system we have now, you would believe fervently in the idea of equality of opportunity, and to always strive to provide those who have less with the same shot, the same access, as those who have more.>>
I do but all parties have to be pulling on the same end of the rope and there needs to be accountability and - yes - very tough love.
-
Sure, sometimes. And of course, you don't want to waste money where it's not working. This is why we study things like effectiveness and outcome. But again, you're working from the assumption that all of these problems you list are caused by programs like ...what? Pell Grants? Early education programs and Head Start cause ...teenage pregnancy? Fatherlessness? What?
I think the brush you're using is too ideological and too broad.
Plus, it's sort of a bogus argument. On one hand you're saying these are cultural problems that can't be addressed by government. On the other hand you're saying these problems are caused by government programs.
And there's a pretty thin line between tough love and neglect.
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>>Plus, it's sort of a bogus argument. On one hand you're saying these are cultural problems that can't be addressed by government. On the other hand you're saying these problems are caused by government programs.>>
I didn't say the problems were caused by government programs - at least I don't believe I did.
I did say, however - either implicitly or explicitly - that 'throwing' money at these problems isn't improving the serious and sad situation.
You can laugh if you like, but I do believe that local and faith-based organizations are a good place to start. You might say that they need money too, and that is true. However, making the problem personal with peer group pressure if probably more effective than Washington sending money for oblique, less focused and direct programs.
>>And there's a pretty thin line between tough love and neglect.>>
I thought that was pleasure and pain.
-
Hey, I'm with you, man. You know who is one of the best responders in natural disasters? The Salvation Army. They get there before anyone else does, and they're super organized and ready to go. Local is almost always better. Churches provide innumerable services to the poor, and to relief efforts.
But when you're talking about federal programs, just because you have federal funding it doesn't mean you don't have local control.
What I'm talking about primarily is education and public safety, and those are usually going to be local and state efforts, often backed by federal money or oversight. (You're almost always going to have some federal oversight when you take federal money.)
Medicaid is another example. Unemployment insurance is another. That's federal and state money, with federal and state administration. It's not just Washington says, you do.
-
I think what John is saying, is that some government programs were
spending money on superficial symptoms, rather than treating the origin, the
"disease" that was causing the symptoms.
As in, if you treat the symptoms of a cancer, but not the disease,
you inadvertently allow the disease to grow.
That is called "throwing money at a problem" ...
And what is wrong, with certain groups of people, is that they develop
certain bad "cultural" traits... that with a ton of government spending to help those same people,
surely creates a dependency, and doesn't resolve to consider in any way, the reasons for the need of
those people for help.
Well, that's how I took it.
-
-
I'm sure it is.
I'm sure it is.
Heck:
nose in air, superior grin, vacant stare imagining superiority. LMAO. -
Cal, the real fix to the problem would be fixing the Mexican economy. I don't know if people want US tax dollars going to that.
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Cal, the real fix to the problem would be fixing the Mexican economy. I don't know if people want US tax dollars going to that.
Cal, the real fix to the problem would be fixing the Mexican economy. I don't know if people want US tax dollars going to that.
No the real issue is us Americans doing too many drugs, lol, jk. I could believe the Mexican government said that. It's our fault they are producing drugs and killing each other. Dumbest statement I have ever read.
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