Clay Matthews HOF
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At the risk of sounding like a big homer, i think he ought to join his brother in the HOF. Bruce was a no-brainer. Clay is a fringe candidate, but has the credentials. i loved that guy.
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it's the fringe that is going to hurt.....or keep him out a while longer
I have struggled with this for years myself. I want him in, I think he will get in, but I think he might be dead or close to it before it happens. I nominated him for the HOF after his 5 years of retirement, as I am sure many others did. I was hoping that the longevity of his career and his four pro bowls would give him enough. I still think it will someday. He didn't get in with his brother and that was a big blow. But his brother did lobby for him in his speech wish I thought was really cool and he continues to do so when the opportunity arises.
After the rookie campaign his son turned in they may go in together someday. And I would argue that he should have been defensive rookie of the year last year. If he has the family genes to stay healthy then watch the f out because someday when we go to Canton there will be at least three Matthews in there. And actually I think there may be a fourth out there playing football as well.
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I know the article is two years old but it is a slow time of the year. I wanted to get everyone thoughts on my favorite Browns player of all time. Do you think he belongs in the HOF? Do you think he will get in? If so when? I know it might be tough to be objective for a bunch of homers but let's try.
I know the article is two years old but it is a slow time of the year. I wanted to get everyone thoughts on my favorite Browns player of all time. Do you think he belongs in the HOF? Do you think he will get in? If so when? I know it might be tough to be objective for a bunch of homers but let's try.
Yes, he is indeed worthy of the HOF, but I doubt he ever gets in. I have never understood why Clay & Hanford Dixon don't get their kudos by the HOF nominating committee.
Geez, Kevin Greene is in the HOF, and he wasn't anything special IMHO. Jim Kelly was probably the 4th best QB in the AFC when he played, and he was a first-ballot HOFer.
I'm right there with you Browns57.
Karlis Missed -
I will compare Clay's style of play to another great Brown...Jerry Sherk. Both should be in the Hall of Fame, period.
Mike
IN DORSEY I TRUST -
I know the article is two years old but it is a slow time of the year. I wanted to get everyone thoughts on my favorite Browns player of all time. Do you think he belongs in the HOF? Do you think he will get in? If so when? I know it might be tough to be objective for a bunch of homers but let's try.
Yes, he is indeed worthy of the HOF, but I doubt he ever gets in. I have never understood why Clay & Hanford Dixon don't get their kudos by the HOF nominating committee.
Geez, Kevin Greene is in the HOF, and he wasn't anything special IMHO. Jim Kelly was probably the 4th best QB in the AFC when he played, and he was a first-ballot HOFer.
I'm right there with you Browns57.
Yes, he is indeed worthy of the HOF, but I doubt he ever gets in. I have never understood why Clay & Hanford Dixon don't get their kudos by the HOF nominating committee.
Geez, Kevin Greene is in the HOF, and he wasn't anything special IMHO. Jim Kelly was probably the 4th best QB in the AFC when he played, and he was a first-ballot HOFer.
I'm right there with you Browns57.
Hanford Dixon is not a HOF candidate.............just not enough "stuff"
Offense Wins.......Franchise QB's are the key.............Defense keeps you in the game.........Go Buckeyes -
I will compare Clay's style of play to another great Brown...Jerry Sherk. Both should be in the Hall of Fame, period.
Mike
I will compare Clay's style of play to another great Brown...Jerry Sherk. Both should be in the Hall of Fame, period.
Mike
Actually, Sherk deserves it more than Clay
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Yes, he is indeed worthy of the HOF, but I doubt he ever gets in. I have never understood why Clay & Hanford Dixon don't get their kudos by the HOF nominating committee.
Geez, Kevin Greene is in the HOF, and he wasn't anything special IMHO. Jim Kelly was probably the 4th best QB in the AFC when he played, and he was a first-ballot HOFer.
I'm right there with you Browns57.
Hanford Dixon is not a HOF candidate.............just not enough "stuff"
Hanford Dixon is not a HOF candidate.............just not enough "stuff"
He didn't have a lot of INTs because opponents weren't throwing to his man very often. He was a true "shut down" corner for many seasons, and as you know, we didn't exactly have a great pass rush during his time. I know his last year as a Brown he lost it, and got picked on, but that shouldn't overshadow a great career.
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I've always had a lot of love for Clay, but while I wouldn't complain if he made it into the HoF, I don't know if I would vote for him, either. To compare him with Kevin Greene--who was brought up earlier in the thread--Matthews had 69.5 sacks for his career vs. 160 for Greene. Matthews went to the Pro Bowl four times, Greene went five. Matthews was never an All-Pro, while Greene was one three times. Matthews had more interceptions (sixteen to five), but that's about it.
Looking at the numbers made me realize two things: first, Kevin Greene was a lot better than I remember, and second, like Ballpeen said, longevity doesn't equal greatness (just ask the BBWAA guys who are praying that Jamie Moyer retires before getting to 300 wins so that they can not vote for him and not look like tools). Matthews was a good player, at times a very good one. But a Hall of Famer? He just doesn't pass the sniff test to me. He played forever, but his numbers were good but not great, and while I'd have to think about it, I don't know how many seasons I would put him in the top four or five players at his position.
Dennis
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Good post but I actually would argue that longevity does count for something. If you are good enough to play for two teams as a starter for the most part for that long then that means not neccesarily that you are HOF caliber but that you are something special. What is the average NFL career for a linebacker. I am guessing 6-8 years tops. Just a guess. if anyone knows let us know.
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No doubt it means something. i don't want to diminish what the guy was.
I just think he is a bit shy as compared to guys like Butkus, Bell,Lambert,Taylor.
I hope he gets in....I just don't think he will unless it is by some old timer committee.
If it was a grading scale where 98 makes you a no brainer and 90 makes you are pretty darn good bet, Clay is one of those 88 guys who's going to get consideration but probably fall a few votes shot and fall though the cracks.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
I know the article is two years old but it is a slow time of the year. I wanted to get everyone thoughts on my favorite Browns player of all time. Do you think he belongs in the HOF? Do you think he will get in? If so when? I know it might be tough to be objective for a bunch of homers but let's try.
not hard to be objective.
I loved Clay for everything he did.....but games played shouldn't be a factor.
IMO he is just a little shy of being a HOF player.
He was good, but he wasn't that good.
not hard to be objective.
I loved Clay for everything he did.....but games played shouldn't be a factor.
IMO he is just a little shy of being a HOF player.
He was good, but he wasn't that good.
Arguable, but I would also argue that there are those in the HOF that were perhaps even contemporaries of Clay that were no better than him. Andre Tippet? Maybe a couple of others.
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No doubt it means something. i don't want to diminish what the guy was.
I just think he is a bit shy as compared to guys like Butkus, Bell,Lambert,Taylor.
I hope he gets in....I just don't think he will unless it is by some old timer committee.
If it was a grading scale where 98 makes you a no brainer and 90 makes you are pretty darn good bet, Clay is one of those 88 guys who's going to get consideration but probably fall a few votes shot and fall though the cracks.
No doubt it means something. i don't want to diminish what the guy was.
I just think he is a bit shy as compared to guys like Butkus, Bell,Lambert,Taylor.
I hope he gets in....I just don't think he will unless it is by some old timer committee.
If it was a grading scale where 98 makes you a no brainer and 90 makes you are pretty darn good bet, Clay is one of those 88 guys who's going to get consideration but probably fall a few votes shot and fall though the cracks.
I agree with you on the 4 LBs you mentioned/compared him to (those guys are clearly exceptional). I hate the Steelers with a passion, but I still say Lambert was the best I ever saw. I also think you're right on with the call on the old-timer committee.
That's why I opted for the Kevin Greene comparison for Clay. Yes, somebody pointed out Greene's stats compared to Clay, and Clay falls short on Greene's numbers....but Clay was IMHO clearly a more complete football player...Greene was an edge-rush specialist (and bounced around to several teams).
Karlis Missed -
I know the article is two years old but it is a slow time of the year. I wanted to get everyone thoughts on my favorite Browns player of all time. Do you think he belongs in the HOF? Do you think he will get in? If so when? I know it might be tough to be objective for a bunch of homers but let's try.
gee who woulda guessed Browns57 had Clay Matthews as his favorite Brown ever. He will have a hard time making the HOF because he never was a standout in in playoffs and the Browns fizzled when he was best. He surely deserves the HOF because he was indeed one of the greatest Browns player ever and deserves th HOF.......for mutliple reasons
gee who woulda guessed Browns57 had Clay Matthews as his favorite Brown ever. He will have a hard time making the HOF because he never was a standout in in playoffs and the Browns fizzled when he was best. He surely deserves the HOF because he was indeed one of the greatest Browns player ever and deserves th HOF.......for mutliple reasons
Some guys that make the HOF do so simply because they were on a winning team, while it is certainly possible that players that were on losing or mediocre teams do not make it even though, perhaps they had superior careers. Do you not think for a moment say, that if the Browns had won a couple of Super Bowls during the 80s that Clay Mathews would not be in the HOF? Or Dixon? Almost surely they would, yet, in reality I doubt that their careers would have been one bit better.
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I've always had a lot of love for Clay, but while I wouldn't complain if he made it into the HoF, I don't know if I would vote for him, either. To compare him with Kevin Greene--who was brought up earlier in the thread--Matthews had 69.5 sacks for his career vs. 160 for Greene. Matthews went to the Pro Bowl four times, Greene went five. Matthews was never an All-Pro, while Greene was one three times. Matthews had more interceptions (sixteen to five), but that's about it.
Looking at the numbers made me realize two things: first, Kevin Greene was a lot better than I remember, and second, like Ballpeen said, longevity doesn't equal greatness (just ask the BBWAA guys who are praying that Jamie Moyer retires before getting to 300 wins so that they can not vote for him and not look like tools). Matthews was a good player, at times a very good one. But a Hall of Famer? He just doesn't pass the sniff test to me. He played forever, but his numbers were good but not great, and while I'd have to think about it, I don't know how many seasons I would put him in the top four or five players at his position.
Dennis
I've always had a lot of love for Clay, but while I wouldn't complain if he made it into the HoF, I don't know if I would vote for him, either. To compare him with Kevin Greene--who was brought up earlier in the thread--Matthews had 69.5 sacks for his career vs. 160 for Greene. Matthews went to the Pro Bowl four times, Greene went five. Matthews was never an All-Pro, while Greene was one three times. Matthews had more interceptions (sixteen to five), but that's about it.
Looking at the numbers made me realize two things: first, Kevin Greene was a lot better than I remember, and second, like Ballpeen said, longevity doesn't equal greatness (just ask the BBWAA guys who are praying that Jamie Moyer retires before getting to 300 wins so that they can not vote for him and not look like tools). Matthews was a good player, at times a very good one. But a Hall of Famer? He just doesn't pass the sniff test to me. He played forever, but his numbers were good but not great, and while I'd have to think about it, I don't know how many seasons I would put him in the top four or five players at his position.
Dennis
My recollection is that Kevin Greene was really a different sort of animal to Clay Mathews. In essence, Greene played the pass rush defensive end position rather than the true outside linebacker position. Greene almost exclusively had pass rush duties, where Mathews was more often not rushing the passer except in blitz situations. How often did Greene have pass coverage duties? Rarely. Mathews: primarily.
That is what I recall. So, they may be a bit of apples and oranges.
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No doubt it means something. i don't want to diminish what the guy was.
I just think he is a bit shy as compared to guys like Butkus, Bell,Lambert,Taylor.
I hope he gets in....I just don't think he will unless it is by some old timer committee.
If it was a grading scale where 98 makes you a no brainer and 90 makes you are pretty darn good bet, Clay is one of those 88 guys who's going to get consideration but probably fall a few votes shot and fall though the cracks.
No doubt it means something. i don't want to diminish what the guy was.
I just think he is a bit shy as compared to guys like Butkus, Bell,Lambert,Taylor.
I hope he gets in....I just don't think he will unless it is by some old timer committee.
If it was a grading scale where 98 makes you a no brainer and 90 makes you are pretty darn good bet, Clay is one of those 88 guys who's going to get consideration but probably fall a few votes shot and fall though the cracks.
No doubt he would not be compared to the guys you mention, but, like I said, I don't consider that he necessarily should take a back seat to the likes of Ricky Jackson who will be inducted this year, or Andre Tippet, or Derrick Thomas, or Dave Wilcox....guys that played a similar position to CM.
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No doubt it means something. i don't want to diminish what the guy was.
I just think he is a bit shy as compared to guys like Butkus, Bell,Lambert,Taylor.
I hope he gets in....I just don't think he will unless it is by some old timer committee.
If it was a grading scale where 98 makes you a no brainer and 90 makes you are pretty darn good bet, Clay is one of those 88 guys who's going to get consideration but probably fall a few votes shot and fall though the cracks.
I agree with you on the 4 LBs you mentioned/compared him to (those guys are clearly exceptional). I hate the Steelers with a passion, but I still say Lambert was the best I ever saw. I also think you're right on with the call on the old-timer committee.
That's why I opted for the Kevin Greene comparison for Clay. Yes, somebody pointed out Greene's stats compared to Clay, and Clay falls short on Greene's numbers....but Clay was IMHO clearly a more complete football player...Greene was an edge-rush specialist (and bounced around to several teams).
I agree with you on the 4 LBs you mentioned/compared him to (those guys are clearly exceptional). I hate the Steelers with a passion, but I still say Lambert was the best I ever saw. I also think you're right on with the call on the old-timer committee.
That's why I opted for the Kevin Greene comparison for Clay. Yes, somebody pointed out Greene's stats compared to Clay, and Clay falls short on Greene's numbers....but Clay was IMHO clearly a more complete football player...Greene was an edge-rush specialist (and bounced around to several teams).
OK, so, I am a big supporter of Lambert's, being somewhat of a home boy and despite his occasional cheap shot on Brian Sipe, and he is a no Brainer Hall of Famer....but....he is NOT the best I have ever seen play.
I have to put him behind Butkus, Nitschke, Sam Huff, and probably Ray Lewis. But I would rate him above fellow HOFers Willie Lanier, Joe Schmidt, and Nick Buonticonti....as far as middle linebackers go that I have seen. Didn't see Bill George play.
A MLB that was outstanding that is not in the HOF is Tommy Nobis.
I note parenthetically that I don't know that the Browns have ever really truly had that HOF caliber middle linebacker play for them. Who would you consider the best MLB in Browns history?
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gee who woulda guessed Browns57 had Clay Matthews as his favorite Brown ever. He will have a hard time making the HOF because he never was a standout in in playoffs and the Browns fizzled when he was best. He surely deserves the HOF because he was indeed one of the greatest Browns player ever and deserves th HOF.......for mutliple reasons
Some guys that make the HOF do so simply because they were on a winning team, while it is certainly possible that players that were on losing or mediocre teams do not make it even though, perhaps they had superior careers. Do you not think for a moment say, that if the Browns had won a couple of Super Bowls during the 80s that Clay Mathews would not be in the HOF? Or Dixon? Almost surely they would, yet, in reality I doubt that their careers would have been one bit better.
Some guys that make the HOF do so simply because they were on a winning team, while it is certainly possible that players that were on losing or mediocre teams do not make it even though, perhaps they had superior careers. Do you not think for a moment say, that if the Browns had won a couple of Super Bowls during the 80s that Clay Mathews would not be in the HOF? Or Dixon? Almost surely they would, yet, in reality I doubt that their careers would have been one bit better.
No doubt that plays a part in in.
Clay is top of mind to fans like us, and writers/voters in the area, but once you start leaving the area, Clay Matthews becomes further removed from top of mind.
Most people would remember him and think of him as a good player, but not as many would really remember him as better than just good.
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gee who woulda guessed Browns57 had Clay Matthews as his favorite Brown ever. He will have a hard time making the HOF because he never was a standout in in playoffs and the Browns fizzled when he was best. He surely deserves the HOF because he was indeed one of the greatest Browns player ever and deserves th HOF.......for mutliple reasons
Some guys that make the HOF do so simply because they were on a winning team, while it is certainly possible that players that were on losing or mediocre teams do not make it even though, perhaps they had superior careers. Do you not think for a moment say, that if the Browns had won a couple of Super Bowls during the 80s that Clay Mathews would not be in the HOF? Or Dixon? Almost surely they would, yet, in reality I doubt that their careers would have been one bit better.
Some guys that make the HOF do so simply because they were on a winning team, while it is certainly possible that players that were on losing or mediocre teams do not make it even though, perhaps they had superior careers. Do you not think for a moment say, that if the Browns had won a couple of Super Bowls during the 80s that Clay Mathews would not be in the HOF? Or Dixon? Almost surely they would, yet, in reality I doubt that their careers would have been one bit better.
Good point, and IMHO that's why about 1\2 the Super Bowl Steelers are in the HOF. Greene, Bradshaw, and Lambert I'll grant you. You look at stats Swann and Stallworth are mighty marginal. Personally if Jack Ham is in, Clay should be also. Let's put the shoe on the other foot- put Matthews on those Steeler teams, and he's in no doubt. Ham on the Browns? He'd still be waiting.
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I agree with you on the 4 LBs you mentioned/compared him to (those guys are clearly exceptional). I hate the Steelers with a passion, but I still say Lambert was the best I ever saw. I also think you're right on with the call on the old-timer committee.
That's why I opted for the Kevin Greene comparison for Clay. Yes, somebody pointed out Greene's stats compared to Clay, and Clay falls short on Greene's numbers....but Clay was IMHO clearly a more complete football player...Greene was an edge-rush specialist (and bounced around to several teams).
OK, so, I am a big supporter of Lambert's, being somewhat of a home boy and despite his occasional cheap shot on Brian Sipe, and he is a no Brainer Hall of Famer....but....he is NOT the best I have ever seen play.
I have to put him behind Butkus, Nitschke, Sam Huff, and probably Ray Lewis. But I would rate him above fellow HOFers Willie Lanier, Joe Schmidt, and Nick Buonticonti....as far as middle linebackers go that I have seen. Didn't see Bill George play.
A MLB that was outstanding that is not in the HOF is Tommy Nobis.
I note parenthetically that I don't know that the Browns have ever really truly had that HOF caliber middle linebacker play for them. Who would you consider the best MLB in Browns history?
A MLB that was outstanding that is not in the HOF is Tommy Nobis.
I note parenthetically that I don't know that the Browns have ever really truly had that HOF caliber middle linebacker play for them. Who would you consider the best MLB in Browns history?[/color]
Charlie Hall was one of my favorites, but I don't recall if he was a MLB.
Mike Johnson comes to mind as the most recent top notch MLB...man I'm stuck in the past.
PS- good call on Tommy Nobis
Zombo- I thought he was in...he has been nominated twice (2007, 2010)...my bad
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Some guys that make the HOF do so simply because they were on a winning team, while it is certainly possible that players that were on losing or mediocre teams do not make it even though, perhaps they had superior careers. Do you not think for a moment say, that if the Browns had won a couple of Super Bowls during the 80s that Clay Mathews would not be in the HOF? Or Dixon? Almost surely they would, yet, in reality I doubt that their careers would have been one bit better.
Good point, and IMHO that's why about 1\2 the Super Bowl Steelers are in the HOF. Greene, Bradshaw, and Lambert I'll grant you. You look at stats Swann and Stallworth are mighty marginal. Personally if Jack Ham is in, Clay should be also. Let's put the shoe on the other foot- put Matthews on those Steeler teams, and he's in no doubt. Ham on the Browns? He'd still be waiting.
Good point, and IMHO that's why about 1\2 the Super Bowl Steelers are in the HOF. Greene, Bradshaw, and Lambert I'll grant you. You look at stats Swann and Stallworth are mighty marginal. Personally if Jack Ham is in, Clay should be also. Let's put the shoe on the other foot- put Matthews on those Steeler teams, and he's in no doubt. Ham on the Browns? He'd still be waiting.
Precisely. And the same is certainly true of all the Browns from the 40s and 50s and the Packers of the 60s. They were dominant so a lot of guys get in the HOF. Had they been with another team, they probably don't make it.
Here is an example I have been told: Archie Manning. What is Archie Manning is drafted by the Steelers and Bradshaw by the Saints? Some say Archie was the best QB of his era, but just played on team that stunk. He is not in the HOF, but many think he should be.
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