Phil Savage Drafts
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us? -
Aloysius said:
That's just false.If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
Hmm, do Northcutt, Dr. Q and Andre Davis ring a bell?
Seemed like everyone of them were tabbed as mid first rounders by our staff so they couldn't possibly afford to pass on them in the second.
Sounds like a bad trend with this franchise. When Paper Mache' Northcutt has had the best career of the bunch that's almost disgusting.
KJ I'll approve, although that dude made Ozzie look like a stud after the catch.
Hmm, do Northcutt, Dr. Q and Andre Davis ring a bell?
Seemed like everyone of them were tabbed as mid first rounders by our staff so they couldn't possibly afford to pass on them in the second.
Yeah, it's not a good sign when a guy was supposed to go early but then slides. Often, it means that even the team who drafted the supposed "steal" had a couple scouts who gave him a high grade, but also one or two who thought he was terrible.
For instance, take this scout's take on Alan Branch:
“One of the most difficult parts of scouting is when you know a guy is going to be a top-15 pick and you have to tell everyone in the room you don’t see it, that the guy is going to be a bust. How many evaluators can put their nuts on the line and go against the room? I gave (Cardinals DT) Alan Branch a sixth-round grade. We stuck him in the second round (collectively as a group on the draft board). I laughed. He was slow-twitched, played soft and had no instincts. He could stare you in the eyes and there was no intensity. And that’s how I hear he’s been in Arizona. He was not hard to figure out.”
Still, it's clear that Phil thought that Wilson was BPA, not that he was reaching for the best receiver he could find.
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its the same when we selected Travis Wilson in the 3rd round another reach pick instead of taking the best player available.
That's just false.
If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
Aloysius said:
That's just false.If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
These are receivers selected after Travis Wilson playing and productive:
Brandon Marshall-Denver
James Avant - Philadelphia
Domenix Hixon NY Giants
I believe all those guys would have been better choices than Travis Wilson
Here is a list of other players drafted after Travis Wilson and the invisable man Issac Sowells
Davis Pittman-LB-Ravens, Fred Keiaho-LB Colts, Max Jean Gilles-G-Eagles, Ko Simpson-S-Bills
Jahri Evans- T-Saints, Stephen Tulloch-LB-Titans, Barry Coefield-DT-Giants, Elvis Dumervil-DE/LB-Broncos
Leon Washington-RB-Jets
With the exception of Pittman and Washington all the guys I listed are starters and major contributors on their teams yet we were stuck drafting Wilson Leon Williams and Issac Sowells and what production have those 3 guys given the Browns.
Keep telling me how great Savage is at drafting
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?
2007 Linebacker Free Agents
Adalius Thomas, London Fletcher, Kawika Mitchell and Boss bailey was available for trade by the Lions.
Do you think any of those guys are better than Andra Davis
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?
Talking 2006 Free Agents there was not much there in the free agent market that being said why not pursue a trade for a inside linebacker.
Why play a 3-4 defense if you don't have inside linebackers, thats another problem I have with RAC and Savage they never had a competent nose tackle or inside linebackers and insisted on playing a 3-4. I might be wrong but I believe D'Qwell Jackson might be pretty good as a weakside outside linebacker in a 4-3.
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?
So you're saying we haven't had FOUR years to bring in someone better than Andra Davis? No wonder why you adore Phil Savage. Looks like the Davis discussion was ended. PLEASE!
The Saints got Jonathan Vilma this last offseason didn't they? Dhani Jones is actually BETTER than Cincy ever thought he'd be. Defense ain't their problem there. Bart Scott tested free agency but didn't get the attractive offfers. London Fletcher has great instincts and is better than anyone we have especially Davis.
Tupa, you ACT like there's noone else if Phil kept someone and yet I see teams getting NEW Lbers they'r ehappy with every year. Us? Isn't LBer one of the top complaints over the years?
I mean one of our most pathetic days as a franchise put Andra Davis on center stage for his INABILITY to tackle a RB that chose NOT to run around him. Actually 2 matchups worth of 6 quarters showed me Lewis had 500 yards on our defense featuring the Wide World of Wonderful from Davis. Phil HAD to see that if he was conscious in Balt at the time. HOW does one see that and think - "I gotta lock that kid up as a priority?"
There's better all over the place. Pittsburgh's defense in 2008 prolly scored more points than our passing game. If you think Phil Savage deserves tenure and gold stars for that - then God bless ya! I really don't see all this abundance of talent you and JADBF see on our team.
- Tom F.
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The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
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The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
So you are saying that there are no linebackers in the entire NFL that Phil could have got better than Andra Davis?As Flugs, mentioned I don't see all the talent we have on this team and Phil has obtained that you and JADBF see.
Such a talented team with a 4-8 record uh uh uh, I know if we had better coaching we would be 8-4
How many Browns players can you name me in the top 5 in the position they play? Other than Shaun Rogers and Josh Cribbs I don't see any.
What draft pick has Savage made other than the 3rd pick in 2 drafts would you say looks like he can become a star player or even a Pro Bowl player?
Do you think a Greg Jennings, Brandon Jacobs, Justin Tuck, Brandon Marshall just a few guys Phil bypassed would look good in a Browns uniform, I would see all of those guys are true playmakers something Phil has lacked in drafting
For all the talk about Butch Davis he got us in the playoffs one year, how many winning season have Phil and RAC given us? ONE WINNING SEASON IN 4 YEARS..........Thats not very good.
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Okay, so I guess we're no at the point where everyone agrees that re-signing Andra Davis in '06 was a reasonable thing to do. I mean, how do you let a guy go when he's just notched 149 tackles, 4 stuffs, and 2 sacks for your defense & there aren't any decent FA's available?
The only question is whether we should have done more the last two offseasons to upgrade his spot.
Toop's already covered the '07 guys. I'd just add that Adalius Thomas has played some ILB in the past, but he's a better OLB. And IIRC, he was adamant about signing with a team on the east coast (didn't want to move his family).
In the '07 draft, I don't know where you'd get the ILB. Don't draft Joe Thomas? Brady Quinn? Eric Wright? Brandon McDonald?
A lot of people don't know this, but the Browns were planning to take ILB Desmond Bishop in Round 6, but the Packers took him right before we were on the board.
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Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.
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Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.
Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.
After they lopped off the last two years & cut his '08 pay, Davis's deal basically amounted to a 3 year, $11.475M deal (Initially, it was a 5 year, $20M deal).
That same offseason, the Cowboys gave ILB Akin Ayodele a 5 year, $17.5M deal.
Very similar players, very similar production over the past three years (Andra: 232 TT, 1 SK, 3 INT; Ayodele: 194 TT, 1 SK, 4 INT). We shortened Andra's deal; the Cowboys traded Ayodele to Miami.
So if re-signing Davis makes Phil a bad GM, then Bill Parcells & Jerry Jones are also pretty bad.
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@jadbf said:
Quit using facts for comparison AlYou're just too in love with Savage.
Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?
it's very easy. I'm going to try it next week.
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@jadbf said:
Quit using facts for comparison AlYou're just too in love with Savage.
Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?
Sounds like a plan. -
@jadbf said:
hmmm...butch davis got them to the playoffs with a 9-7 record....This team with the talent savage brought in was 10-6 last year.......
and guess how many winning seasons Davis had????? uh yeah that 1 9-7
Huge difference there yes there is.....
Tell me what playoff game we played in with that 10-6 record
How many teams with winning records did we beat
You say you like to debate but you only point out things to try to make you look good, I'd rather go 7-9 and make the playoffs than 10-6 and staying at home saying if the Colts had played well we would of won when he had the easiest schedule in football and still missed the playoffs but then again you keep saying all this talent we have as we sit today at 4-8 staring a 4-12 season or maybe 5-11 in the face. if we had so much talent that Savage brought in we would have a winning record.........I know your answer its all RAC's fault we need better coaching not better players.
You say this team with the talent Savage brought in was 10-6 last year......well that same talent with more added talent has us at 4-8 and looking at another losing season........so you want to tell about all that talent.....where is all that talent JADBF
What does Bill Parcells like to say......YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE AND WE ARE A 4-8 TEAM LESS TALENTED THAN MANY HOMERS WANT TO ADMIT
How many people had the Browns winning the AFC North? going deep in the playoffs? having more than 6 Pro Bowl players
What about all the talk was this is the year we bypass the Steelers.......looks like many people were WRONG
We all were fooled by last seasons easy schedule that produced 10 wins.......time to admit the truth
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@jadbf said:
I'm done talking to you Tom.Statements like this show me how much you don't actually read what other people write,
Look who's talking? You ONLY read what you WANT to read. If it's not "Phil Savage is wonderful" - you and other Savage prisses throw hissy fits and personalize because you got no game. That's freakin gay so carry on Poindexter...
- Tom F.
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@jadbf said:
First of all...don't you get like Tom.Now where have I said it is all RAC's fault. I have said it's more his fault that Savages.
And secondly, All I was combating was your little point that somehow Davis was better than what we have now. And you are wrong.
SONY, you did awesome. You got him twisting his take in all different directions. All the Savage fans get cranky and prissy when you bring up the personnel mess we have. They're not HAPPY with how they are articulating his perfection so just feel flattered at their only resort. They really just want it to be RAC's fault exclusively so it's a simple fix. I keep saying if it was that easy - we wouldn't be looking for Head Coach #4 already. VERY talented don't teams just don't consistently finish with 4-6 wins the way our body by Savage has looked for 3 of his 4 years here. And no matter how hard they try, when RAC had a GREAT Supervisor and GOOD players in NE there wasn't a person in MA that didn't think he could coach. The SAME people that want him gone are the SAME ones that wanted BB gone and can't admit it.
We ALL know Butch Davis is better suited for college than pros. That said, when Butch Davis inherited a 5-27 football team in 2001 - he had us in the playoffs in 2002. And if you looked at the schedule back then we had to BEAT an Atlanta team that was going to the NFC playoffs on the final week of the season and we did. The Savage fans HATE hearing our 2007 schedule had 12 youth football teams on it but that's how many teams on it could not win MORE than 8 games (if you researched the mean of wins for those 12 teams - it won't exceed 5). Once again, we were only 3-3 in the division.
This part is for SONY - who gave RAC a raise this year? How about Jamal Lewis? How did Roye do after RAC gave him a raise? How did Bodden do after RAC gave him a raise? Savage's first 2 QB ideas were Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye right? His next stroke of brilliance was seeing he needed to lock up Andra Davis after watching films of Jamal Lewis gaining over 500 yards running up the middle against us in 2 games (only 6-7 quarters worth). Jason Fiske's body was shotso - there wasn't anything left in his tank. That was knee jerk decision where a Savage fan will caution was he was cap friendly. He was alo opponent friendly as we ranked 31st against the run. WHY sign him at all? Because Phil's draft pick Andrew Hoffman was even worse. End result: Fiske got more than a million $ when 31 other teams had already concluded "hang-em up son."
The main reason we have to remain so overdepedent on free agency is because Phil has only had 1 decent draft in 2007. Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet? Who's left from 2005? So when Joe J, Donte Stallworth, Robaire Smith, Kenny Wright, Antwaan Peek and other Savage signees show up to games in blue jeans - how MANY draftees from the Savage era are helping us win?
Ready for this? How many guys leftover from the Davis era on our 2007 team were given raises? Andra Davis? Leigh Bodden? Ryan Tucker? Orpheus Roye? How about other key guys Savage looked to from the Davis era like Sean Jones & Kellen Winslow in 2007? Steve Heiden was here pre-Savage too right? Wasn't Phil Dawson? I'm not seeing a BIG difference from Savage that he so confidently said he'd make.
- Tom F.
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@jadbf said:
First of all...don't you get like Tom.Now where have I said it is all RAC's fault. I have said it's more his fault that Savages.
And secondly, All I was combating was your little point that somehow Davis was better than what we have now. And you are wrong.
SONY, you did awesome. You got him twisting his take in all different directions. All the Savage fans get cranky and prissy when you bring up the personnel mess we have. They're not HAPPY with how they are articulating his perfection so just feel flattered at their only resort. They really just want it to be RAC's fault exclusively so it's a simple fix. I keep saying if it was that easy - we wouldn't be looking for Head Coach #4 already. VERY talented don't teams just don't consistently finish with 4-6 wins the way our body by Savage has looked for 3 of his 4 years here. And no matter how hard they try, when RAC had a GREAT Supervisor and GOOD players in NE there wasn't a person in MA that didn't think he could coach. The SAME people that want him gone are the SAME ones that wanted BB gone and can't admit it.
We ALL know Butch Davis is better suited for college than pros. That said, when Butch Davis inherited a 5-27 football team in 2001 - he had us in the playoffs in 2002. And if you looked at the schedule back then we had to BEAT an Atlanta team that was going to the NFC playoffs on the final week of the season and we did. The Savage fans HATE hearing our 2007 schedule had 12 youth football teams on it but that's how many teams on it could not win MORE than 8 games (if you researched the mean of wins for those 12 teams - it won't exceed 5). Once again, we were only 3-3 in the division.
This part is for SONY - who gave RAC a raise this year? How about Jamal Lewis? How did Roye do after RAC gave him a raise? How did Bodden do after RAC gave him a raise? Savage's first 2 QB ideas were Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye right? His next stroke of brilliance was seeing he needed to lock up Andra Davis after watching films of Jamal Lewis gaining over 500 yards running up the middle against us in 2 games (only 6-7 quarters worth). Jason Fiske's body was shotso - there wasn't anything left in his tank. That was knee jerk decision where a Savage fan will caution was he was cap friendly. He was alo opponent friendly as we ranked 31st against the run. WHY sign him at all? Because Phil's draft pick Andrew Hoffman was even worse. End result: Fiske got more than a million $ when 31 other teams had already concluded "hang-em up son."
The main reason we have to remain so overdepedent on free agency is because Phil has only had 1 decent draft in 2007. Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet? Who's left from 2005? So when Joe J, Donte Stallworth, Robaire Smith, Kenny Wright, Antwaan Peek and other Savage signees show up to games in blue jeans - how MANY draftees from the Savage era are helping us win?
Ready for this? How many guys leftover from the Davis era on our 2007 team were given raises? Andra Davis? Leigh Bodden? Ryan Tucker? Orpheus Roye? How about other key guys Savage looked to from the Davis era like Sean Jones & Kellen Winslow in 2007? Steve Heiden was here pre-Savage too right? Wasn't Phil Dawson? I'm not seeing a BIG difference from Savage that he so confidently said he'd make.
- Tom F.
Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
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Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Aloysius said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Not to mention, we would have seen more of Rucker already if we weren't so deep at TE. We also would have seen more of Bell if he hadn't gotten injured. So far, Phil has a lot to boast about with the 08 draft.
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
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Aloysius said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Not to mention, we would have seen more of Rucker already if we weren't so deep at TE. We also would have seen more of Bell if he hadn't gotten injured. So far, Phil has a lot to boast about with the 08 draft.
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
I calculated the percentage of draft picks I thought were starting-caliber players, and here's what I got:
Draft Pick Hit Rate
Giants: 52.6%
Colts: 38.5%
Chargers: 38.1%
Ravens: 37.5%
Browns: 36%
Steelers: 32%
Patriots: 26.9%
Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of some really good drafting teams. Though some of those teams have drafted more elite players than us, we haven't been drafting more busts than the Scott Pioli and Kevin Colbert's of the world.
I think Savage deserves to be criticized for his management style, as well as some of the FA moves he made this past offseason. But I don't think his drafts somehow justify canning him. If he deserves to be fired or demoted, it's not because he suddenly forgot how to scout.
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Heres the deal between the Savage and RAC debate as I see it.
RAC is a horrible coach that cant get the most out of his players and has given us a team that plays with no heart week in and week out. He has to go.
BUT...
We can not keep blowing this team up every 4 years and expect to get any where, other than where we are now.
Has Savage been pefect? No, but the talent level on this team is no doubt better since he has been here. With a coach that can get the most out of his players and put them in a position to be better then they are, you never know what this year and the players we have could have been with a better coach.
You give savage on more year with a different coach and after that year if the coach we get doesnt feel he is getting the talent he needs you show Savage the door.
I just dont think you blow this team up completely and expect to be better any time soon. We could have some talent on this team that hasnt been able to produce due to bad coaching and trying to bend players to a system instead of bending the system to the players. Hell best example I can think of is Jeff Garcia, he looked like crap here because he was in the wrong system for his style of play. Look how well he is doing in TB.
So you fix the glaring problem, and hope that Savage can have a better offseason and if he doesnt you get rid of him next year.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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