REAL Browns fans answer a question please

BUNSofSTEEL08

@ravensfan1996 said:
First of all let me say that I have been a frequent visitor to this site, and I admire the passion of the REAL Browns fans on this board. Also, the knowledge of the game of football exhibited by Browns fans on this site trumps that of some of the fans on my Ravens message board. So with that in mind, I want to ask those fans a question...
As a Baltimore Ravens fan, I'm asking...are the REAL Browns fans over the move to Baltimore by Art Modell?

Keep in mind that Iam an old Baltimore Colts fan who still harbors a grudge with anything named Irsay. The two moves aren't comparable, as far as I'm concerned, but I want to hear the opinions of the REAL Cleveland football fans. Steeler fans, keep your dirty opinions to yourself.

My only Opinion is You RatBird Fans are Scum... I Remember Vividly the "Pep Rally" in Baltimore during the Announcement that your City had Hi-Jacked the Browns. I as a Steeler fan was Pissed (You Stole or Main Rival) . My Opinion of you sorry Town has only grown Stronger over the Years Idiots.

BUNSofSTEEL08

@djdawg2010 said:
Jesus Christ, another troll???!!!
WTF are you talking about???? The Browns are the #1 sports team in Cleveland. Always have been, always will. They sell out no matter what. You cannot make the same case for the Indians and Cavs! When they suck nobody goes. Watch what happens to the Cavs when they struggle. OK, so it's been awhile since anyone in Cleveland has won anything but here is a list of the last championship by team:

Browns 1964

Indians 1948

Cavs... never

The Browns have had a lot more success since 1964 than the other 2. Aside from the run in the 90s and in 2007, the Indians have been horrible. The Cavs have been good the past few years, and they have fared better recently, but I can guarantee you the excitement that this city had for the Cavs will be NOTHING compared to when the Browns get back to being a contender. That I can promise you. It was absolutely ELECTRIC in this town from 1985-1989!

This dude is NO Steeler Fan .... no.1 NO Steeler Fan would have Bubby as part of his name... not Exactly our Proudest days . And he would choose an ex-Steeler and Have the screen name basically making fun of the player ? Come on man... this is a Casual Browns Fan Stirring the Pot.

BUNSofSTEEL08

This is What Baltimore is... the lynch-pins to Clevelands NFL Struggles . Modell couldn't have Moved the Team if he didnt have a place waiting with Arms wide open. I have NO Use for the Ravens.

Canton Mike

IMHO, things such as moving a team aren't done by one SINGLE person. That being said, I harbor great resentment for Baltimore because of...

First some history...As a pro football fan & traditionalist since the mid '50s, I was VERY upset that the Colts (even though I never was a Colt's season long fan) were removed from Baltimore, INCLUDING the name & history. I have always been against the "new" Colts, even at playoff time.

For WHATEVER reason, being Modell, political reasons, etc, our Browns DID move to Baltimore & were welcomed with open arms (even AFTER what was done to them). Our keeping the Brown's name was sort of an afterthought to the "move". Baltimore would NOT have nixed the move had obtaining the Brown's name also been a part of it. In other words, the way I see it, Baltimore did to Cleveland what was done to them & I will carry ill will for that team to my grave.

Just my biased, & possibly uneducated opinion, but I'm stickin' to it.

Mike

SuperSteelers

As much as I hated the Browns prior to 1996, I did not want them to move. I actually teared up a little with all my Browns brothers...I am from Ohio and a dominant Browns area. It was more than just the rivalry, it was the Browns tradition, the fan loyalty. It was not a necessary move only a greedy one. Dan Rooney commented on this and it went something like this, " The Browns fan base and the city of Cleveland deserve better than this...Cleveland and its fans are paying for the financial troubles of one man."

dapz

I am a browns fan that grew up in baltimore. I hate the ravens, all they did was bitch about how someone stole their team, and were completely happy to accept stolen goods from another city.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

I'll take longstanding prideful organizations over corrupt thugs anyday, Browns and Redskins for me.

hoorta

@bubbybumbster said:
you did not want to build a stadium for the Browns. Modell left and won a Super Bowl.

"The Browns were in desperate financial trouble and Modell clearly stated the facts before he announced his departure to Baltimore."

From your article. Allow me to re-phrase. Modell was in desperate financial trouble of his own doing.

Stuff your apologist revisionist history where the sun don't shine. Modell got $75 million from the state of Maryland, AND a new stadium. AND STILL WENT BUST. So what was Cleveland supposed to do- offer him $150 million, and new stadium just to stay?

Here's the reality, stay or go, Modell was financially doomed, he was way too leveraged. If he hadn't been adamant about passing the team to his cigar smoking kid, he could have sold out to Al Lerner in the first place- and you betcha, he'd already be in the HOF if he had followed that scenario.

djdawg2010

@strangebru said:
One other thing about the move to Baltimore that you left out.
Art Modell also voted against Baltimore getting one of the last two expansion teams before he moved his team. Looking back why did he not vote to put teams in Baltimore and St. Louis if not for his own desire to move his team to one of those cities? Charlotte North Carolina may have been a good decision in hindsight, but in Jacksonville, aside from recent blackouts for TV audiences in the area, usually covers entire sections of the stadium for Jaguars games and sells out for Gators, when they do play there, games in the same stadium. If the two expansion teams were moved to Baltimore and St. Louis instead of Jacksonville and Carolina there would still be an NFL team in Los Angeles (a popular landing place for the Jaguars in rumors) and Cleveland would have never had a 3 year hiatus.

Yeah, I don't understand the thing with Jacksonville. It's unfortunate too, because I hate to see any team relocate. In the end, it's the fans that get screwed more than anything.

djdawg2010

@bunsofsteel08 said:
This dude is NO Steeler Fan .... no.1 NO Steeler Fan would have Bubby as part of his name... not Exactly our Proudest days . And he would choose an ex-Steeler and Have the screen name basically making fun of the player ? Come on man... this is a Casual Browns Fan Stirring the Pot.

Freak, as I've stated before, you're all right. I'm sure he is a Steelers fan, but who knows. Whatever or whoever he/she is, I cannot stand the arrogance and gloating and the down right disrespect. Show at least a little sportsmanship. If you notice, other fans post here and when respectful for the most part they're treated kindly. Sure, not all of the time, but I'm not gonna blow up another fan just because he likes another team. I will however, blow them up if they come at us with bullshit. Make sense? In other words... "don't start no shit, won't be no shit!"

Gips

Its not something real "older" browns fans can forget, at least not until this expansion franchise validates itself as a legitimate football team instead of being one the leagues biggest and cruelest jokes, we get reminded of the bitter 1996 move year in and year out as we lose, lose, lose with no real identity or direction ever really truly emerging, only one mirage after another mirage because there is always next year and we are always only one regime/coach/QB/rebuild away...

OrangeHelmet-UK

@ravensfan1996 said:
First of all let me say that I have been a frequent visitor to this site, and I admire the passion of the REAL Browns fans on this board. Also, the knowledge of the game of football exhibited by Browns fans on this site trumps that of some of the fans on my Ravens message board. So with that in mind, I want to ask those fans a question...
As a Baltimore Ravens fan, I'm asking...are the REAL Browns fans over the move to Baltimore by Art Modell?

Keep in mind that Iam an old Baltimore Colts fan who still harbors a grudge with anything named Irsay. The two moves aren't comparable, as far as I'm concerned, but I want to hear the opinions of the REAL Cleveland football fans. Steeler fans, keep your dirty opinions to yourself.

Im a Browns fan from the UK (I may be 3,000 miles away but i consider myself a REAL Browns fan)

Personally i hate Modell and the Baltimore Ravens. just the sight of that Ratbird logo makes me sick, he ripped the Heart out one of the oldest and proudest franchises in pro-football history, not to mention the city of Cleveland , and I will NEVER forgive him for that!

Having said all that, I do have sympathy for Baltimore Colts fans who lost their team to indianapolis,

BrownB499

@ravensfan1996 said:
Keep in mind that Iam an old Baltimore Colts fan who still harbors a grudge with anything named Irsay.

What I would suggest you do RF1996 is to go to an Indianapolis Colts message board and ask how many of them

feel Robert Irsay belongs in the HOF.... that may give you better perspective on how we feel when Ravens fans

come around here pimp'n Modell like he's some kind of hero

ATENEARS

Why Modell moved the Browns

by dawgsbynature.com

I am not writing this for the sole purpose to trash Art Modell. I am writing this because in the "How did you become a fan section", I noticed that many fans had become Browns fans after the move. These fans don't understand why Art Modell is hated so much. I don't want this to turn into a "Art Modell is a ----" thread. While it may very well be true, this isn't the reason I wrote this. This is for new Browns fans, and some older misinformed fans, that don't understand how this situation came to pass. Know thy enemy right?

**WARNING: LONG**

I tried my best to keep my feelings put aside for this. You have no idea how hard this was.

Sports will always be business. Art Modell taught me this lesson. Dollars and cents and bottom lines matter more than a city full of passionate fans.

How did this situation get to this point? It is a long story, that goes way back.

Up until 1973, Cleveland Stadium was owned by the city of Cleveland. The problem was that the stadium was expensive to operate and maintain and the city of Cleveland needed help. Art Modell offered the city of Cleveland a deal. Modell's new company, Stadium Corporation, would lease Cleveland Stadium from the city, for $1 dollar per year. Modell would then sublease the stadium to the two teams that played there, his own Cleveland Browns, and the Cleveland Indians.

The city of Cleveland accepted the deal. Art Modell now not only owned the Browns, but he also owned the home of the Cleveland Indians, for nothing more than a dollar a year and operating costs. This deal gave Modell a lot of power in the city of Cleveland.

Modell did some good things with the stadium. He added a huge electronic scoreboard in the end zone above the Dawg Pound. He also built luxury boxes around the stadium. He added advertisements (look at the above link) all over the stadium. All of these were bringing in money for Modell.

This deal looked great for everyone, except the Cleveland Indians.

Stadium Corp. was the Indians landlord. If the Indians needed something in their locker room, they had to ask Modell. If they needed a new batting cage at the ball park, it was up to Modell. Modell didn't care if the Indians needed something, they weren't his team. Additions to the Indians clubhouse were minimal. It was like a scene from the movie Major League, just without a naked Cerrano. The Indians had one of the worst clubhouses in all the MLB. The Indians believed that this was a major reason that they were unable to attract any big time free agents.

For example, starting in 1974 Stadium Corp booked a mid-summer outdoor rock concert, called the World Series of Rock, to be played on the Indians home field. Modell collects a ton of money for tickets and concessions from the rock concert, and the Indians receive nothing more than a field destroyed by a rock show that was held on the infield. Yes, Stadium Corp. did some repairs, but if you have ever been to a rock concert, you have some idea on how poor of condition the field was in. (Maybe they should have hired these guys. NSFW)

But this wasn't the biggest issue with Indian owners. Art Modell was collecting the money from the Indians luxury boxes. People were paying Modell to watch the Indians! Modell tried to explain that the luxury boxes weren't profitable because Modell financed their construction with loans that carried prevailing high interest rates, even though he never proved that this was true. In other words, Modell didn't want to share the money raised by the luxury boxes because he made a poor business decision! How that makes any sense, only Modell knows.

Modell was sitting on a golden goose. He was paying rent as the owner of the Browns to himself. He was collecting rent on the Indians with the bonus of the luxury boxes on top. He was getting money from the NFL's TV deals (in 1990 the NFL signed a 900 million dollar a year deal with ABC, CBS, ESPN, NBC, and TNT). All Modell was paying was to upkeep the stadium (a dump) and the costs and salaries of the Browns (Just to give you and idea, Joe Montana signed a 3 year 10 million dollar deal in 1993. In other words, Modell should have had money everywhere.)

The Indians had grown tired of Modell's penny pinching ways. Dick Jacobs, the Indians owner since '86, and Gordon Gund, the Cavs owner, went to the city of Cleveland and asked for new stadiums. In May of 1990 the Cuyahoga County voters approved of a 15 year "sin tax" on cigarettes and alcohol (That's right, if you buy a pack of smokes in the 'Hoga before 2005, you helped pay for those two stadiums). Cleveland's sports teams all played in outdated dumps, and the city wanted to fix this.

Enter Gateway Sports and Entertainment Group (GSEG).

The GSEG appointed a nine member board, with Thomas V. Chema named as executive director. This groups job was to allocate money in order to build new sporting venues in the downtown Cleveland area.

It wasn't just for the Cavs and Indians. The GSEG approached Art Modell about building a new Cleveland Browns stadium. In fact, the land on which Progressive Field sits was originally supposed to be for the new Browns Stadium. Here the city was offering to build him a stadium in which he would have to pay NOTHING to get.

Modell wouldn't have it. Modell wanted to own the stadium. He wanted the people of Cleveland to pay for a stadium that he would own. I can't fathom a reason why he expected Cleveland to accept those terms. GSEG told Modell that his terms were not going to make it.

Modell believed that he would be fine without the Indians. This couldn't have been further from the truth. Modell had a stadium that just had 81 nights open up. Stadium Corps luxury box revenues went into the crapper, and with a stadium empty night in and night out during the summer, Modell's money evaporated before his eyes.

Modell needed help and he needed it quickly. He now had an empty and old stadium that was in need of repairs and refurbishing that he could not afford. He reached out to the city of Cleveland and asked for help. In '73 the city of Cleveland needed help, now it was flipped. The city of Cleveland approved a 10 year extension of the sin tax. It had to be voted on, but no one in their right mind thought that the people of Cleveland wouldn't pass the motion. Modell was promised $175 million dollars, which was almost equal to the amount of money that GSEG put aside for Gund Arena and Jacobs Field combined (Jacobs cost $128 million, and Gund cost $75 million).

All the sudden Modell would not discuss the future of his team. He wouldn't discuss the stadium. Nothing. He went into lock down mode. The vote for Modell to get his money was in the near future, yet you couldn't get a peep out of Modell. Modell said that the moratorium on the talks until after the season were because he wanted to focus on football, but that he would continue talks after the season.

There was another reason. Modell was in secret negotiations with the state of Maryland to move the Browns to Baltimore for the '96 season. Baltimore had been without an NFL team since '84 when the Colts went to Indy in the dark of the night. One of the most outspoken owners against the Colts moving to Indy was, you guessed it, Art Modell. Modell also voted against Al Davis being allowed to move Raiders from Oakland to Los Angeles. But when it came to saving his own ass, loyalty didn't apply to Modell.

The week before the City of Cleveland was to vote the referendum giving Modell $175 Million, Modell announced that he had struck a deal to move the Browns. Starting with the '96 season, Modell would be the owner of the Baltimore Browns. The deal Modell took was great for him. He was promised a $200 million dollar stadium to be built by the state, state paid improvements to Baltimore's Memorial Stadium, which would be the Ravens home field for the next two seasons, and to top it all off, Art Modell was given $75 Million dollars for "moving expenses". Everyone knew that the moving expenses was pretty much a nice little thank you to Art. The number thrown around is that Art cleared $50 million, but nothing has been proven.

Many people believed that the timing of Art's announcement was to try and sway the people of Cleveland to vote down the proposed tax addition. He could then claim that the Cleveland wasn't willing to help him in getting a new stadium which would help him in convincing the other NFL owners to allow him to move. Never mind that Modell himself was the one who walked from GSEG. The people of Cleveland went out the following week and overwhelming passed the sin tax extension. The people of Cleveland answered Modell's financial S.O.S. Modell didn't care, he had a sweetheart of a deal from Baltimore.

Fans were outraged. They sued everyone they could. They protested. It didn't matter. The city of Cleveland did have one major win. We kept the history of the Cleveland Browns. We kept the colors. We kept what made the Browns, THE Browns. Honestly back then, it seemed like a small win for a city that was losing its football team. It laid the groundwork of similar deals that has kept the "Sonics" name, logo and history in Seattle. The Twins were forced to agree to a similar deal when they agreed to move into Target Field this season. City of Cleveland was promised a franchise in the near future, be it a expansion or another existing franchise.

If your asking why the NFL didn't step in, it's because the only people who benefited from this move more than Art Modell was the NFL. The NFL, and it's owners had the city of Cleveland in their back pocket. Any city that wanted a new stadium, just had to drop the hint of relocating to Cleveland. Cleveland was used in the shakedown of numerous cities. You see a new stadium that was built in the past 10-15 years, you can thank Cleveland for that. The NFL had all of these great new stadiums at a cost of zero to them or their owners. While the owners may have said that they were against the Browns moving, behind it all, owners like Robert Kraft were taking notes on how to get shiny new stadiums for free. The rich were getting richer and the gaping hole in Cleveland was a major influence.

All that was left was the vote of the owners. Many owners spoke out against the move. Some people thought that the move would be voted down due to the outrage of fans and media. Modell needed 23 out of the 30 owners to give him a yes. Three owners abstained from the vote, and two owners voted against the move. Ralph Wilson, who was considered one of Art Modell's closest friends in football, voted against him because Modell never gave the Browns a chance to match the offer he got from Baltimore. I am a Steeler hater, but I have the utmost respect for the Rooney family. They voted against the move of the Browns and handed out black armbands to their fans at the last Browns game in Pittsburgh. The fans gave a standing ovation to the Browns players when they were introduced. That is why the Browns-Steelers is the greatest NFL rivalry in the NFL. When the dust cleared, Modell had enough votes to move the Browns.

With the league approval, nothing else stood in Modell's way. He offered excuses on why the move was made but they were all flimsy (his family wouldn't be able to pay the estate tax when he died, etc.) and proved to be false. Money mattered, and Modell was getting it in spades from Baltimore. That's all that mattered. He was broke because he couldn't manage his money. The NFL forced (FORCED!) Modell to sell part of his team because he was in poor financial condition. He was so poor at managing his money, that the NFL was taking away his toy. On March 27th, 2000, Art Modell sold 49% of the Ravens to Steve Bisciotti. Bisciotti had the option to buy the other 51% for $325 million in 2004, which he did. On April 9th, 2004, Art Modell was no longer a part of the NFL. He didn't even last 10 years in Baltimore.

I could have gone into more, what was Al Lerner's role in this whole thing? Was he promised a franchise if he played along, why fly Modell to Baltimore, etc. But this is so much longer than I thought originally. If I left anything out, and I am sure I did, please feel free to add to this in the comments, and correct me if I got anything incorrect (I did so much of this from memory and facts about the move are far, few and in between.)

I wrote this from a neutral point of view as much as I could. But this part is from me the Browns fan. Modell screwed me. He robbed me of my favorite thing as a kid, watching the Cleveland Browns with my father. Sundays weren't the same from '96-'98. We tried, but it just hurt. Modell was a bad business man and the people who paid most were people like my father and I. Modell could have just sold the Browns to someone who would have kept the team in Cleveland, but Art was always too proud for that. The only way he would no longer be an owner of an NFL team was either death or the NFL would have to step in. When it is all said and done, I hope that Art enjoys his money, because the move should cost Modell a shot at Canton. Art Modell isn't a Hall of Famer, and he sure as hell isn't a Cleveland Brown.

The Gipper

@theclevelandsound said:
Ive just heard so many testimonies from fans saying "Yeah this is the Browns but it felt so different before they left. It doesn't feel like the same team."

Three years off may have led to some of that feeling, but so has the poor play. If they had been winning it wouldn't have felt any different. Losing always feels different than losing.

Ask our local Steeler trolls. Do you think they feel different because their team has had a couple of decades of winning vs. when they had 4 decades of losing? Ask Saints fans if it feels different winning Super Bowls than it does from the days people wore bags over their heads and the stadium was only half full. And ask Bills fans or Raiders fans if it feels different now that they have been losing a lot vs. when they were appearing in numerous Super Bowls.

Give the Browns a deep playoff run and it will feel the same here as it did before.

The Gipper

@djdawg2010 said:
Yeah, I don't understand the thing with Jacksonville. It's unfortunate too, because I hate to see any team relocate. In the end, it's the fans that get screwed more than anything.

I do understand the Jacksonville thing: Jax really is a pretty good football town. It supported the Bulls of the USFL pretty well and college football well. And it had good support early on when Mark Brunell had them in the playoffs.

Also, primarily is that the other NFL owners were highly, highly impressed with Wayne Weaver, proposed owner of the Jags, and they wanted this man to be a part of their exclusive club so they awarded the town a team. Did Jax have a better bid for the expansion than Baltimore and St. Louis? I don't know, I suppose it was close. But those towns didn't have a Wayne Weaver backing up the bid, and all things being otherwise fairly equal, the NFL guys chose Weaver.

BrownB499

Thank You ATENEARS

Great post

Let's not forget Modell originally proposed that Gateway be a combination football and baseball stadium...with him as landlord of course

StrangeBru

@the-gipper said:
I do understand the Jacksonville thing: Jax really is a pretty good football town. It supported the Bulls of the USFL pretty well and college football well. And it had good support early on when Mark Brunell had them in the playoffs.
Also, primarily is that the other NFL owners were highly, highly impressed with Wayne Weaver, proposed owner of the Jags, and they wanted this man to be a part of their exclusive club so they awarded the town a team. Did Jax have a better bid for the expansion than Baltimore and St. Louis? I don't know, I suppose it was close. But those towns didn't have a Wayne Weaver backing up the bid, and all things being otherwise fairly equal, the NFL guys chose Weaver.

The answer to the bolded question, NO.

If Jacksonville would have had a better deal for a new owner than Baltimore or St. Louis I don't believe Art Modell would have voted for them to get a new team. He saw the sweet heart deal that was set up for a new owner in Baltimore (new stadium with lots of skyboxes (skybox money isn't shared with the league), large chunk of the Personal Seat Licenses fees, stadium naming money, etc. etc.) and I believe he wanted that for himself. Luckily, he sold the team to a local guy who is not out for the money (Steve Biscotti is very successful without the Ravens) like I feel Georgia Frontiere (married Mr. Carroll Rosenbloom who originally owned the Colts traded to Irsay for Rams making a long story short), Modell and Irsay was.

StrangeBru

@brownb499 said:
Thank You ATENEARS
Great post

Let's not forget Modell originally proposed that Gateway be a combination football and baseball stadium...with him as landlord of course

This is the biggest hypocracy I saw from Art Modell. He was the stadium owner and tried to get a new stadium built from city/state funds. If they weren't getting any of the money from any events held at the stadium, out side of taxes, why should the city/state be responsible for building a new stadium? He should have been talking to the person who owned the building, himself. Jerry Jones built his own stadium. Jack Kemp Cook built his own stadium. Why couldn't he have built his own stadium?

rich4eagle

@ravensfan1996 said:
First of all let me say that I have been a frequent visitor to this site, and I admire the passion of the REAL Browns fans on this board. Also, the knowledge of the game of football exhibited by Browns fans on this site trumps that of some of the fans on my Ravens message board. So with that in mind, I want to ask those fans a question...
As a Baltimore Ravens fan, I'm asking...are the REAL Browns fans over the move to Baltimore by Art Modell?

Keep in mind that Iam an old Baltimore Colts fan who still harbors a grudge with anything named Irsay. The two moves aren't comparable, as far as I'm concerned, but I want to hear the opinions of the REAL Cleveland football fans. Steeler fans, keep your dirty opinions to yourself.

I was totally angry and upset for seven or so years. I worked hard to get the Browns back in Cleveland, sending messages and the like to the NFL.

then I started mellowing as more info became available.........and

Now, Art is forgiven. I think he was backed into a corner, a lot of it was his own fault by fiscal irresponsibility and a lot by a sweetheart deal to hard to refuse..............

So, I have forgiven Art.......and I think deep in his heart if he could have done it different he would have................

and under his leadership the Browns would have remained a great franchise

No one can deny when he owned the Browns the passion and dedication was there every Sunday for 52 weeks a year

The Lerner experience has been not quite worse than awful

Stan's message was right on and accurate. The problem with Art was that he was in such a huge financial hole the only way out was the Bmore buyout. And Al Lerner brokered the whole deal, so what makes him any better than Art?

BUNSofSTEEL08

@canton-mike said:
IMHO, things such as moving a team aren't done by one SINGLE person. That being said, I harbor great resentment for Baltimore because of...
First some history...As a pro football fan & traditionalist since the mid '50s, I was VERY upset that the Colts (even though I never was a Colt's season long fan) were removed from Baltimore, INCLUDING the name & history. I have always been against the "new" Colts, even at playoff time.

For WHATEVER reason, being Modell, political reasons, etc, our Browns DID move to Baltimore & were welcomed with open arms (even AFTER what was done to them). Our keeping the Brown's name was sort of an afterthought to the "move". Baltimore would NOT have nixed the move had obtaining the Brown's name also been a part of it. In other words, the way I see it, Baltimore did to Cleveland what was done to them & I will carry ill will for that team to my grave.

Just my biased, & possibly uneducated opinion, but I'm stickin' to it.

Mike

You see VERY Clearly Mike. Baltimore People are Scum. At Least Pittsburgh Fans morned your teams loss and MANY Protested the Move .