Mangini and Holmgren question?
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1. I think there is a certain # of wins in Holmgren's mind that Mangini needs to accomplish even though that won't be the only criterion. I think that 7-9 would do it.
2. I don't mind Jon Gruden. I think he's a decent coach, however, I would point out that Jon Gruden (for all of his reputation with QB's) has never actually developed a successful one as a head coach. He's ruined many. I would also point out that he tends to grow tired of players quickly. For instance, he drafted Chris Simms and the guy took them to the playoffs with no talent around them. He had a great game in the playoffs and almost brought them back to win. He gets his spleen ruptured the next season and all of a sudden, he can't even find a pass for the restroom...much less see the field. I don't think Gruden coaches the Browns in 2011.
3. Eric Mangini had two winning seasons out of three in NY and the losing season sandwiched in between saw his QB get hurt with no reasonable play from the backup. When he's had legitimate QB play in NY he went 18-9 (10-6 with a healthy Pennington and 8-3 with a healthy Favre). In the final weeks of the 2008 season, Mangini probably made some mistakes BUT I would point out that it's hard to overcome your QB throwing multiple interceptions a game for the last five games. In Seattle that year, they lost 9-6 in a snow storm and the Jets receivers were open downfield....Favre couldn't hit them. This coach can't overcome bad QB play but there aren't many coaches who can.
4. If Mangini is gone, it will be a very high risk move because no one will argue that they haven't made significant progress since the Minnesota game last year. Yes, it's been frustrating but when you get rid of Mangini, you will then blow up the defense too. Holmgren, left to his own philosophy, will not run a 3-4. The offensive pieces probably still fit but you're committing to a new coach and new philosophy which, absent an All-Star roster that Rex Ryan inherited, will end up setting the team back.
5. We all presume that because their resumes are different that Holmgren and Mangini cannot coexist successfully or that they'll disintegrate at the slightest variance. That simply isn't true. Eric Mangini has gone on record as saying that he's open to all philosophies that will help the team win. The WCO was new at some point and that developed out of the marriage of other philosophies. I think that a merging of the Walsh and Parcells trees can happen and perhaps it's going to be the leading edge of how things can be successful in the NFL in the next ten years. All it takes are patient men who aren't willing to listen to the media. The only question in my mind is that this could all change if Mangini decides that he's too loyal to Brian Daboll and Holmgren wants him gone.
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So all those who say gruden took over dungys team that can also be said about rex ryan and the jets.
Dungy couldn't get the bucs over the hump and gruden did.
Chucky can handle big personalities. The only thing that I would say is a negative is he doesn't seem to develop young qbs..
Then again I don't think he has ever had a franchise qb..
In jon we trust!
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If Gruden is such a football genius, why are Jaworski's comments almost ALWAYS more insightful on MNF???
I'll take Mangenius over a rah-rah guy any day of the week.
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If you listened to monday night football Gruden called the block FG. Jaws has been doing the booth for like 28 years.. Coaching and being in the broadcast booth you cant compare..
The lions thought Matt Millen was a genious so they made him a GM.. hahaha Get my point do ya???
How many broadcasters have come down to the field to coach.. To be a broadcaster all you have to do is be a former player and loud an anooying..
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I think more and more ex NFL coaches are discovering a top college job is the way to go. You get to recruit the player you want and don't have to rely on a draft. You are usually on a very nice campus with players who actually listen because they aren't getting paid more than you, and the money paid is "good" enough....like millions.
I could see him in Miami next year.......if I had my choice, I would take a top college over a pro job any day.
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If you listened to monday night football Gruden called the block FG. Jaws has been doing the booth for like 28 years.. Coaching and being in the broadcast booth you cant compare..
The lions thought Matt Millen was a genious so they made him a GM.. hahaha Get my point do ya???
How many broadcasters have come down to the field to coach.. To be a broadcaster all you have to do is be a former player and loud an anooying..
If you listened to monday night football Gruden called the block FG. Jaws has been doing the booth for like 28 years.. Coaching and being in the broadcast booth you cant compare..
The lions thought Matt Millen was a genious so they made him a GM.. hahaha Get my point do ya???
How many broadcasters have come down to the field to coach.. To be a broadcaster all you have to do is be a former player and loud an anooying..
Maybe you're right. But I have to say that I think Mangini is a thoughtful, smart guy in conversation AND he can cook up a mean gameplan AND the players play hard for him. What more do you want?
(I know: more wins.)
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If you listened to monday night football Gruden called the block FG. Jaws has been doing the booth for like 28 years.. Coaching and being in the broadcast booth you cant compare..
The lions thought Matt Millen was a genious so they made him a GM.. hahaha Get my point do ya???
How many broadcasters have come down to the field to coach.. To be a broadcaster all you have to do is be a former player and loud an anooying..
Maybe you're right. But I have to say that I think Mangini is a thoughtful, smart guy in conversation AND he can cook up a mean gameplan AND the players play hard for him. What more do you want?
(I know: more wins.)
Maybe you're right. But I have to say that I think Mangini is a thoughtful, smart guy in conversation AND he can cook up a mean gameplan AND the players play hard for him. What more do you want?
(I know: more wins.)
Would a 2nd half game plan be too much to ask for?
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Fair enough.
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I won't debate the second half adjustment issue that seems to be such a popular criticism. I would ask, however, that you consider: If the game planning (including second half) was so awful, then why did we have the run that we did against NO, NE and NY? Are you telling me that we did that to three of the best coaching staffs in the league because our coaches are a bunch of hacks?
I, for one, am having a lot of trouble stomaching the serious downturn in the team's performance the last two weeks but in my mind, it's simple:
1) Scott Fujita
2) Josh Cribbs
3) Offensive line
Losing Scott Fujita does not get NEARLY the attention it deserves. Besides being an intelligent leader, Fujita made plays. He set the edge on run plays, he had some key QB pressures and, most of all, was an integral part of our sub packages on third downs. We're giving up 42% of third down conversions the last two weeks. That's compared to 30% against the Saints and Pats. WE MISS SCOTT AND OUR DEFENSE REMAINS VULNERABLE AS LONG AS HE'S OUT!
Josh Cribbs may be having a down year but he's our only home run threat (all due respect to #40 who's a beast). Teams would at least kick away from him on special teams which, in itself, resulted in good field position. The gadget plays don't work nearly as well without him and the WildDawg is non-existent without him.
The offensive line was better last week but not when it mattered most. Steinbach still struggled. We failed on two fourth and 1's. We couldn't open the holes in the second half and there was little push.
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Don't get me wrong, I like Gruden. I just think you are building him up way above where he actually is. I don't think he is a better coach than Mangini which would make it a lateral move at best with a few more years of player turnover (again). I think some Browns fans are addicted to it. We are finally showing some improvement and solid play from the core and having a team built properly and fans are ready to blow it up again. It baffles me.
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No, look at what rex ryan has done with the jets. He hasn't blown it up just brought in some key players..
Do you really think mangini will be around when to take the team to the play offs?
Coaches are sometimes brought in to get teams ove a hump, ala dungy- gruden, mangini- rex ryan. In this day an age if you have a good foundation built which I think we have done, you can turn things around quick.
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No, look at what rex ryan has done with the jets. He hasn't blown it up just brought in some key players..
Do you really think mangini will be around when to take the team to the play offs?
Coaches are sometimes brought in to get teams ove a hump, ala dungy- gruden, mangini- rex ryan. In this day an age if you have a good foundation built which I think we have done, you can turn things around quick.
No, look at what rex ryan has done with the jets. He hasn't blown it up just brought in some key players..
Do you really think mangini will be around when to take the team to the play offs?
Coaches are sometimes brought in to get teams ove a hump, ala dungy- gruden, mangini- rex ryan. In this day an age if you have a good foundation built which I think we have done, you can turn things around quick.
So get rid of the coach that has laid the foundation after year 2? Sorry, that makes zero sense and should be a crime if it happens. Let's take a deep breath and let our coach continue to improve this team along with the great personnel guys that we now have in place. BTW Ryan took a team that was 9-7 and led them to 9-7 the next year.
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No, look at what rex ryan has done with the jets. He hasn't blown it up just brought in some key players..
Do you really think mangini will be around when to take the team to the play offs?
Coaches are sometimes brought in to get teams ove a hump, ala dungy- gruden, mangini- rex ryan. In this day an age if you have a good foundation built which I think we have done, you can turn things around quick.
No, look at what rex ryan has done with the jets. He hasn't blown it up just brought in some key players..
Yes, but...you then are not comparing "apples to apples". First, Rex runs a 3-4 and he and Eric have exchanged ideas and philosophies liberally over the years. Second, Mangini didn't have the benefit of a Bart Scott or a Jim Leonhard in NY. Honestly, he also didn't have the benefit of a decent corner opposite Revis. If Holmgren fires Mangini, he won't be retaining the 3-4 and it WILL require a blow up.
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Earl I understand what your saying. My biggest issue is exactly what you pointed out, the run we had against those good teams. We seem to play down to the level of our competition. I put that on our coaches..
Earl I understand what your saying. My biggest issue is exactly what you pointed out, the run we had against those good teams. We seem to play down to the level of our competition. I put that on our coaches..
I don't exactly agree. I think that minus those players, our team is even less talented on the field. Yes, some falls on coaching but there's also a lot of execution issues the last two weeks. Tackling has been suspect (and contrary to what people think...NFL coaches don't have the time to teach friggin' tackling...it's expected that by this point they should understand how that works). The QB play last week did not protect the ball and that almost cost us as well.
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Im thinking mangini will be gone if he cant win at least 6-7 games, yes there has been decent progress with an insanely tough schedule but also unexceptionally bad letdowns and inconsistency brought on by fickle untrusting coaching/playcalling when unprepared subs inevitably have to take to the field or if something goes wrong we turtle up and lose...
Mangini often likes to blame the players but i think holmgren knows where the real issues are...
I can do with or without mangini, i dont like him or his system or his would be mentor belichick but i also dont like many of the other so called available coach options any better like fox for instance...
Its a tough call i wouldnt want to make...mangini is a mediocre skill factor vs the unknown factor of a new hire..
I would hope our next coach doesnt need on the job training and an idiot for an OC...
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Im thinking mangini will be gone if he cant win at least 6-7 games, yes there has been decent progress with an insanely tough schedule but also unexceptionally bad letdowns and inconsistency brought on by fickle untrusting coaching/playcalling when unprepared subs inevitably have to take to the field or if something goes wrong we turtle up and lose...
Mangini often likes to blame the players but i think holmgren knows where the real issues are...
I can do with or without mangini, i dont like him or his system or his would be mentor belichick but i also dont like many of the other so called available coach options any better like fox for instance...
Its a tough call i wouldnt want to make...mangini is a mediocre skill factor vs the unknown factor of a new hire..
I would hope our next coach doesnt need on the job training and an idiot for an OC...
Im thinking mangini will be gone if he cant win at least 6-7 games, yes there has been decent progress with an insanely tough schedule but also unexceptionally bad letdowns and inconsistency brought on by fickle untrusting coaching/playcalling when unprepared subs inevitably have to take to the field...
Mangini often likes to blame the players but i think holmgren knows where the real issues are...
I can do with or without mangini, i dont like him or his system or his would be mentor belichick but i also dont like many of the other so called available coach options any better like fox for instance...
Its a tough call i wouldnt want to make...known skill mediocrity vs the unknown factor..
How exactly is Mangini "often" blaming the players? Aside from this past weekend's comments about intensity in practice, please show me where he "often" does this.
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Its becoming more and more obvious that someone just has a severe bias against Mangini.
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Its becoming more and more obvious that someone just has a severe bias against Mangini.
Its becoming more and more obvious that someone just has a severe bias against Mangini.
Who?
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