Bye Bye Mangini
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
This is a very good and frequently asked comment. So let's be fair about it. Guys like you and I really have the Jones for the Super bowl. We all do. But here is the unfair part of using the SB as a ruler. The SB is big, bold, glitzy, flashy, sexy and for 30 teams every year, unattainable.So really, if you were to put any coach on stage and ask the question......... "is the guy to get us to a super bowl", most coaches that haven't been there, probably would not elicit a huge YES from the fans. No disrespect meant, but really how can we say any man is the guy who will get us there?
When you take a look at Mangini's press demeanor, he comes off as a polite, non-talkative guy. Not flashy, not boisterous. Judging the way we fans are conditioned by the media to think, maybe we can't see clearly.
I always thought Cowher was a great coach. If he never won a SB I wouldn't think any less of him. Marty never made it to a SB, but does that make him a bad coach?
I can flip this back on you. What would the Browns record be with Gruden coaching? Can you say without a doubt he would have done better than Mangini?
Of the coaches you like, who do you think would have taken THIS Browns team to the SB?
What is it that you feel Mangini hasn't done, that if he did, would have lead to more wins? Would this team be 10 - 4 with Gruden or Cowher? See, I don't think so.
Another flip, what do you think our record would have been IF we had a flashy, explosive running back, a break away WR and a badass pass rusher and bone crushing shut down DB?
According to the CB website we lost 8 football games by 7 points or less, and a bunch by 3 or 4.
Yet one more flip............ if Mangini had a flashy RB, potent WR, badass DB and one more pass rusher, do you really think we would not have put more than 7 points on the board in most of, if not ALL of those 8 games? DO you also think that the added talent on D would not have lowered our opponents scores?
From what I can see, the Mangini Browns were a few players away from reasonably being a 12 - 2 team this year.
Final flip - You think Gruden would have been this consistent and disciplined with the talent we have?
Can Mangini get us to the SB? I know this much, the guy has been consistently respectable and just a twat hair away from a bunch of wins.
Firing this kid will be a mistake, and a huge one at that. The shakey, flakey condition of our management has made Mangini's status here unsure, at best. He has performed under a lot of clouds and doubts AND more importantly to remember, today's players aren't the most noble as a group. Point being, if some of them perceived that Mangini wasn't going to be here long, they may have either loafed, or in the case of the players who don't like him, maybe not given everything.
Can he get us to the SB? He is a better coach and has more principles than Gruden. I don't believe Gruden would have held this team together.
Again, if Mangini gets fired, we will live to regret it. I think this guy has championship values and a champion's heart. That's the important thing to find.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do beleive with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do believe with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
Mangini took over a train wreck of a team...and depending on what your after, it can take more than 3 yrs
I look at last year as a wash...Kokinis was never on board with the players Mangini wanted...so that draft was shit from the start
In any pro sport you can buy your way into the playoffs in two years or less...all it takes is money
What most of us want to see is sustainable success...all that takes is time
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Great analysis! I expect mangini to get one more year for a few reasons: 1) Another coach may not be able to come in here and produce a winning record next season which won't make holmgren look good, 2) If I were in Holmgren's position I would think mangini deserves one more year but a winning record will be expected next year with playoffs expected the following year if not next year 3) Mangini should get the chance to produce with a viable QB for an entire season which will be colt 4) Getting rid of mangini will not be a popular decision if we beat either the ravens or steelers, many fans feel we are going in the right direction.
We are only a few players away from being significantly better. Get some of those players and if the team doesn't have a winning record next year most people will be ready for another coach
I am in the keep mangini camp. We have greatly improved from last year. If we improve that much next year we should have a winning record
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Great analysis! I expect mangini to get one more year for a few reasons: 1) Another coach may not be able to come in here and produce a winning record next season which won't make holmgren look good, 2) If I were in Holmgren's position I would think mangini deserves one more year but a winning record will be expected next year with playoffs expected the following year if not next year 3) Mangini should get the chance to produce with a viable QB for an entire season which will be colt 4) Getting rid of mangini will not be a popular decision if we beat either the ravens or steelers, many fans feel we are going in the right direction.
We are only a few players away from being significantly better. Get some of those players and if the team doesn't have a winning record next year most people will be ready for another coach
I am in the keep mangini camp. We have greatly improved from last year. If we improve that much next year we should have a winning record
Great analysis! I expect mangini to get one more year for a few reasons: 1) Another coach may not be able to come in here and produce a winning record next season which won't make holmgren look good, 2) If I were in Holmgren's position I would think mangini deserves one more year but a winning record will be expected next year with playoffs expected the following year if not next year 3) Mangini should get the chance to produce with a viable QB for an entire season which will be colt 4) Getting rid of mangini will not be a popular decision if we beat either the ravens or steelers, many fans feel we are going in the right direction.
We are only a few players away from being significantly better. Get some of those players and if the team doesn't have a winning record next year most people will be ready for another coach
I am in the keep mangini camp. We have greatly improved from last year. If we improve that much next year we should have a winning record
Agree with every word
Yr # 1 "You learn how to work" = worked their asses off ,added character, and he flushed the shitter
Yr # 2 "You learn how to compete"= any arguments? we were in almost every game
Yr # 3 "You learn how to win" = with more talent added...no more excuses
Yr# 4 "You learn to win consistently" = if number 3 doesn't happen...he'll never make it this far
BTW excellent post longhorn
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agree 1000%. as others have said "the grass is always greener ".
i know i can come off as being against gruden but i'm really not. i'm against the OMG we're not in the playoffs, fire the coach faction of our fan base. let the MFer sit down and stretch out, order a drink before you run him out of town already. geez imagine if these guys went into their new job and didn't know when to take out the fries when the bell rings......they'd be out whistling dixie before the sun hit their wives' ass down on the docks. imagine their 11 kids then.
in all seriousness... let the guy fulfill his contract and let's see what he can do next year....with the draft, fa and all. next year: no playoffs....send him packing.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
And I'm pretty sure all of the Mangini supporters feel that he is the guy, or else noone would be arguing.
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I think Manini stays. But Dabol is gone. Whoever it is, who is playing not to lose, conservatively, is setting this team up for failure.
The lack of unpredictability is causing Hillis to be ganged up on on first down. How many freakin times can he call a simple run up the middle
on first downs in a game? What OC doesn't know how to at least TRY to keep a defense off balance?
I believe Dabol doesn't get it. He's calling games, playing not to lose to the teams they are supposed to win, and going for broke
vs teams they aren't supposed to beat. That's the only way I can figure it.
So, I believe Mangini will stay another year. but Haskel becomes the new OC. I'm happy with Ryan as DC, though,
he's aggressive, and his guys love playing for him. Dabol... not so much at all. He doesn't inspire anybody with his weaselness
in games.
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I in the beginning was an avid mangini supporter but it didnt take long to start to see this guy is a mediocre career coach at best, i like a few things he does but for the most part he makes consistently bad decisions at every level from hiring and then keeping dabs right on down to the field where the guy couldnt make the right game deciding decision if his life depended on it.
He is very uncreative and unoriginal and add dabs into the picture and you have a team that can be easily predicted and all but assured of no on the fly adjustments or personnel changes, after being hammered by holmgren mangini revises his gameplan to beat the saints and pats with creativity and then after holmgren is impressed manweenie slips back into his mediocre my way or no way skin and this time he his caught and finished..
Mangini leaves much to be desired in a head coach from a fans view but lamontes stable is very bare on good coaching talent and i honestly dont see anyone that stands out but gruden or holmgren himself that would do it for me...otherwise we are likely trading a smelly turd already in the toilet for a potentially explosive diarrhea accident..
I in the beginning was an avid mangini supporter but it didnt take long to start to see this guy is a mediocre career coach at best, i like a few things he does but for the most part he makes consistently bad decisions at every level from hiring and then keeping dabs right on down to the field where the guy couldnt make the right game deciding decision if his life depended on it.
He is very uncreative and unoriginal and add dabs into the picture and you have a team that can be easily predicted and all but assured of no on the fly adjustments or personnel changes, after being hammered by holmgren mangini revises his gameplan to beat the saints and pats with creativity and then after holmgren is impressed manweenie slips back into his mediocre my way or no way skin and this time he his caught and finished..
Mangini leaves much to be desired in a head coach from a fans view but lamontes stable is very bare on good coaching talent and i honestly dont see anyone that stands out but gruden or holmgren himself that would do it for me...otherwise we are likely trading a smelly turd already in the toilet for a potentially explosive diarrhea accident..
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I didnt like the hire from the start...I saw and see Mangini as being another Shottenheimer...he'll only get you so close then break your xxxxing heart!
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i really can't believe that i am somehow associated with fans, of the team i will stand up and cheer for, thru thick and thin, good and bad (a fan to a point so much so as people at the 'social' gambino club i hung out with yesterday were asking me to leave cuz i was making such a scene) with you little MARYs that are just looking for reasons to whine..........man up, belly up and quit your FING bellyaching. holy shit! it's not like god and country asked you to raise up and actually contribute something positive to this post, thread or social conscienceness. how about a little xmas cheer? wozzy wozzy wah wah!! where's schleprock when you need him? lord knows he'd be better to hang out with than you snivvelin' little bastards.
all you naysaying negative pricks:here's to you getting shit-canned after the first of the year!!!!! cheers!!
what's the term? young dumb and full of DUMB?
i really can't believe that i am somehow associated with fans, of the team i will stand up and cheer for, thru thick and thin, good and bad (a fan to a point so much so as people at the 'social' gambino club i hung out with yesterday were asking me to leave cuz i was making such a scene) with you little MARYs that are just looking for reasons to whine..........man up, belly up and quit your FING bellyaching. holy shit! it's not like god and country asked you to raise up and actually contribute something positive to this post, thread or social conscienceness. how about a little xmas cheer? wozzy wozzy wah wah!! where's schleprock when you need him? lord knows he'd be better to hang out with than you snivvelin' little bastards.
all you naysaying negative pricks:here's to you getting shit-canned after the first of the year!!!!! cheers!!
what's the term? young dumb and full of DUMB?
And Merry xxxxing Christmas, assholes!! WHOOOOOOOO!!!
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
This is a very good and frequently asked comment. So let's be fair about it. Guys like you and I really have the Jones for the Super bowl. We all do. But here is the unfair part of using the SB as a ruler. The SB is big, bold, glitzy, flashy, sexy and for 30 teams every year, unattainable.So really, if you were to put any coach on stage and ask the question......... "is the guy to get us to a super bowl", most coaches that haven't been there, probably would not elicit a huge YES from the fans. No disrespect meant, but really how can we say any man is the guy who will get us there?
When you take a look at Mangini's press demeanor, he comes off as a polite, non-talkative guy. Not flashy, not boisterous. Judging the way we fans are conditioned by the media to think, maybe we can't see clearly.
I always thought Cowher was a great coach. If he never won a SB I wouldn't think any less of him. Marty never made it to a SB, but does that make him a bad coach?
I can flip this back on you. What would the Browns record be with Gruden coaching? Can you say without a doubt he would have done better than Mangini?
Of the coaches you like, who do you think would have taken THIS Browns team to the SB?
What is it that you feel Mangini hasn't done, that if he did, would have lead to more wins? Would this team be 10 - 4 with Gruden or Cowher? See, I don't think so.
Another flip, what do you think our record would have been IF we had a flashy, explosive running back, a break away WR and a badass pass rusher and bone crushing shut down DB?
According to the CB website we lost 8 football games by 7 points or less, and a bunch by 3 or 4.
Yet one more flip............ if Mangini had a flashy RB, potent WR, badass DB and one more pass rusher, do you really think we would not have put more than 7 points on the board in most of, if not ALL of those 8 games? DO you also think that the added talent on D would not have lowered our opponents scores?
From what I can see, the Mangini Browns were a few players away from reasonably being a 12 - 2 team this year.
Final flip - You think Gruden would have been this consistent and disciplined with the talent we have?
Can Mangini get us to the SB? I know this much, the guy has been consistently respectable and just a twat hair away from a bunch of wins.
Firing this kid will be a mistake, and a huge one at that. The shakey, flakey condition of our management has made Mangini's status here unsure, at best. He has performed under a lot of clouds and doubts AND more importantly to remember, today's players aren't the most noble as a group. Point being, if some of them perceived that Mangini wasn't going to be here long, they may have either loafed, or in the case of the players who don't like him, maybe not given everything.
Can he get us to the SB? He is a better coach and has more principles than Gruden. I don't believe Gruden would have held this team together.
Again, if Mangini gets fired, we will live to regret it. I think this guy has championship values and a champion's heart. That's the important thing to find.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do beleive with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do beleive with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
I think Mangini deserves a 3rd year to continue the improvement that the team has shown this year. Remember how badly we were blown out in a ton of games last year and that just hasn't happened this season. Disappointing last 2 weeks for sure..but I still think he deserves another season.
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For what it's worth, I am watching Sound FX on NFL Network and it is a 30-minute special of only Mike Holmgren clips. There is a game, his last home game for the Seahawks, where they played the Jets with Brett Favre at QB and Eric Mangini as head coach. They are talking pregame and Mike is very friendly with Eric, and says, "Hey, you are a hell of a coach", and there was more but I cannot remember the exact words. If anyone has followed Holmgren, he does not throw out compliments unless he truly means it.
I know that was as opposing coaches and this situation is different, but I still think Eric remains our coach and we switch to a different offensive coordinator. Our defense did get manhandled these last two weeks, but Rob Ryan has done a great job with the talent give -- completely scarce defensive line and mediocre linebackers.
There has been plenty of progress this year, but lets be honest, there is not a lot of talent on both sides. Is Gruden going to change this? The same Gruden who was a .500 coach in Tampa after inheriting a Super Bowl caliber team?
Either way, Go Browns!
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Ok I put an asterisk by my previous statement at the beginning of the thread.
Predicted Records:2010: 8-82011: 8-82012: 9-72013: 5-112014: 6-10 -
You got the Mangini relationships wrong:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/plaindeale....xml&coll=2
Mark Shapiro is his brother-in-law; Ron Shapiro is his father-in-law and agent. Ron Shapiro is a Baltimore based sports agent who represented the likes of Cal Ripken, Eddie Murray, Jim Palmer etc....so I don't think he's taking the grandkids away from them by moving out of Cleveland.
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Ok I put an asterisk by my previous statement at the beginning of the thread.
Ok I put an asterisk by my previous statement at the beginning of the thread.
Sound, I think is has been requested before by Ballpeen and I would like to second the motion. How bout consolidating the Mangini coaching debate posts into a single thread? There are a ton of insightful posts
being contributed and this would make viewing those opinions more manageable for lazy folks like me not wanting to miss any of the action.
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Im with whatever holmgren deems best for the time being, i dislike mangini as a coach for very valid reasons but we have had somewhat worse coaches and whats another year of losing with little if any progress made?
My preference would be to bring in gruden as it would give us the best chance to grow fast and advance in an offensive fashion..
If we do keep mangini even the fangini's will likely be ready to grab their pitchforks and run him out of town at the end of the next season and that would be worth a good laugh!
Most of us hate it when people get displaced and unemployed but mangini has in my opinion failed in almost every facet of the game and his job, he hasnt done enough nor has he done much right and does not deserve a third chance...
Fact is mangini could have the best talent in the world and would still find a way to waste/misuse it..
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Gruden once told play boy he lost his virginity to the notre dame fight song..
If Gruden isn't the coach next year, will you do us all a favor, and jump off a bridge? The I-480 span over the Valley would be a good place.
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The GM handles getting the talent and the coach tries to utilize it, so yeah gruden is creative and not afraid to try to win and understands how to win with what he has something mangini has proven he cant do, its to late for mangini to replace daboll not like he would anyways but the damage has already been done, and for holmgren to put someone that would do his own thing would likely be unacceptable to mangini and in the end would not serve the organization or fans well...
Im hoping holmgren does a complete purging like he should have done last year, how many years do we have to waste on mangini for the fangini's to see the bum for what he is..
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But John Gruden won with an inherited group of talent, something Mangini did not. There is little talent on this team. We have an above average offensive line, a running back, tight end and a young QB. Our WR's are mediocre at best and our defense lacks playmakers besides Ward, Haden, Rubin and an occasional Rogers sighting.
Gruden inherited a team that was in the playoffs for THREE years continuously before he took over. Sounds a lot like what Mike Tomlin has been blessed with.
Not trying to knock Gruden, but how can Mangini win with these guys?
And Mangini is a defense coach, there is no way he would take over as offensive coordinator. Probably never even thought of.
This team is drastically improved from last season. Another solid draft and free agency pick-ups and we will be competing in the division under Mangini.
Sorry to beat a dead horse. Maybe this should have been posted in a thread that is already open.
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agree 1000%. as others have said "the grass is always greener ".
i know i can come off as being against gruden but i'm really not. i'm against the OMG we're not in the playoffs, fire the coach faction of our fan base. let the MFer sit down and stretch out, order a drink before you run him out of town already. geez imagine if these guys went into their new job and didn't know when to take out the fries when the bell rings......they'd be out whistling dixie before the sun hit their wives' ass down on the docks. imagine their 11 kids then.
in all seriousness... let the guy fulfill his contract and let's see what he can do next year....with the draft, fa and all. next year: no playoffs....send him packing.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
This statement is another problem with Browns fans. Progression isn't that easy. In your perfect world I'm sure you would expect a 5-11 team last year to improve 2-3 wins each year until we would eventually go undefeated and win the Super Bowl! I hate to break it to you, but that never happens.
You have to look at the whole picture. Our record isn't better, but we have a few more pieces and our team has been in virtually every game unlike last year. The wins will come but you can't expect 3 more wins every year, especially with Pittsburgh and Baltimore in the same division. Could we have 2-3 more wins this year? Yes. But I don't care who coached us this year, our record would not have been much different...
I feel that Holmgren has the same view and will give Mangini another year. I also just want the media to be wrong again so they can complain about how stupid they think Holmgren is (since they were wrong and want to act like they should have been right). Browns fans yelling change every year don't have to have an opinion anyway as they just turn on the T.V. and agree with everything the media throws their way...
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