The Official Nfl Cba/lockout Thread
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I replied back to Roger Goodell on his letter, basically told him to can Jerry Jones and a deal would get done.
This union-busting crap is going on right here in Ohio, Wisconsin, and soon New Jersey. It's a bunch of BS....if the NFLPA asked to see the owners books, they should honor that request. That is a part of negotiations-the owners aren't being honest & forthcoming on this simple request. Also, it is the owners who set a crappy tone, threatening a lockout during last season's competition.
People may not like unions, fine, you are entitled to that opinion. This is simply another attack on unions....it's just silly when it involves billionaires vs millionaires.
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I replied back to Roger Goodell on his letter, basically told him to can Jerry Jones and a deal would get done.
This union-busting crap is going on right here in Ohio, Wisconsin, and soon New Jersey. It's a bunch of BS....if the NFLPA asked to see the owners books, they should honor that request. That is a part of negotiations-the owners aren't being honest & forthcoming on this simple request. Also, it is the owners who set a crappy tone, threatening a lockout during last season's competition.
People may not like unions, fine, you are entitled to that opinion. This is simply another attack on unions....it's just silly when it involves billionaires vs millionaires.
I replied back to Roger Goodell on his letter, basically told him to can Jerry Jones and a deal would get done.
This union-busting crap is going on right here in Ohio, Wisconsin, and soon New Jersey. It's a bunch of BS....if the NFLPA asked to see the owners books, they should honor that request. That is a part of negotiations-the owners aren't being honest & forthcoming on this simple request. Also, it is the owners who set a crappy tone, threatening a lockout during last season's competition.
People may not like unions, fine, you are entitled to that opinion. This is simply another attack on unions....it's just silly when it involves billionaires vs millionaires.
Glad you brought up the union thing. Bust the unions I say, especially the public sector unions. In today's business climate, I can't think of anything good a union does. Oh, sorry, I forgot about those evil corporations (and state governments) that expect a good day of work for a ridiculious amout of pay, with a pension sometimes more than 100% of salary.
Since when do million dollar primadonnas need protection from Jerry Jones? Get a life. No other business gives away over 50% of revenue to the employees, and that's what they are, employees. Don't like it, take your millions and go somewhere else. I for one love football and the Browns, but a year without playing, big deal. Life goes on. Just seems silly to me that the highest paid players like Manning and Brady are the ones filing the lawsuit. What's their grievance? I think this is, as stated earlier, a powerplay by D. Smith, trying to make a name for himself, and he is; the guy who killed football.
It has nothing to do with unions and collective bargaining. It's about greed. Sure, the ownwers are greedy, but they have a business to run. They are not in the business for our benfit, or the benefit of the players. We are the consumers, and we can go elsewhere. Players are employees, and can got to work are McDonals as far as I care.
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I am sick and tired of hearing the players moan about "opening the books". The NFL gets audited every year and the NFLPA sees those audits. The owners even agreed to have a mutually appointed third party go through the books. The players refused. The reason they don't want to open the books has more to do with some owners not wanting other owners to see how much they are or are not making. I imagine the disparity between Jerry Jones and Ralph Wilson is very large.
Well if that's the case why don't the owners open the books for the nflpa? If they already have the data which they don't, they should'nt have a problem. The owners want the players to take the pay cut. But I feel the owners are being very dishonest on what they say they make, or there wouldn't be a big deal. Right?
Also the tv money that was given to the nfl was to keep the nfl afloat for the long hall. So that says they wanted the lockout. I can't take sides they both suck. But in my eyes the league seems to be more deceitful.
I seen Jerry jones he looks a little nervous.
After building that stadium he needs football.
Well if that's the case why don't the owners open the books for the nflpa? If they already have the data which they don't, they should'nt have a problem. The owners want the players to take the pay cut. But I feel the owners are being very dishonest on what they say they make, or there wouldn't be a big deal. Right?
Also the tv money that was given to the nfl was to keep the nfl afloat for the long hall. So that says they wanted the lockout. I can't take sides they both suck. But in my eyes the league seems to be more deceitful.
I seen Jerry jones he looks a little nervous.
After building that stadium he needs football.
Dude, just get this through your head.....How much do you make....open you audited books for us.
The friggen players want to compare what they make with the friggen owner of the business.
How much do you want to bet the average NFL player makes closer to the owner of the business then does any normal union worker??
I won't just bet donuts here....this is a investment bet.
I think players make a high percentage of the take.
Screw the friggen players...I almost hope this does extend....let's see who can hold out before going broke.
I'll bet dollars to donuts Lerner walks away better than players do.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
I replied back to Roger Goodell on his letter, basically told him to can Jerry Jones and a deal would get done.
This union-busting crap is going on right here in Ohio, Wisconsin, and soon New Jersey. It's a bunch of BS....if the NFLPA asked to see the owners books, they should honor that request. That is a part of negotiations-the owners aren't being honest & forthcoming on this simple request. Also, it is the owners who set a crappy tone, threatening a lockout during last season's competition.
People may not like unions, fine, you are entitled to that opinion. This is simply another attack on unions....it's just silly when it involves billionaires vs millionaires.
Glad you brought up the union thing. Bust the unions I say, especially the public sector unions. In today's business climate, I can't think of anything good a union does. Oh, sorry, I forgot about those evil corporations (and state governments) that expect a good day of work for a ridiculious amout of pay, with a pension sometimes more than 100% of salary.
Since when do million dollar primadonnas need protection from Jerry Jones? Get a life. No other business gives away over 50% of revenue to the employees, and that's what they are, employees. Don't like it, take your millions and go somewhere else. I for one love football and the Browns, but a year without playing, big deal. Life goes on. Just seems silly to me that the highest paid players like Manning and Brady are the ones filing the lawsuit. What's their grievance? I think this is, as stated earlier, a powerplay by D. Smith, trying to make a name for himself, and he is; the guy who killed football.
It has nothing to do with unions and collective bargaining. It's about greed. Sure, the ownwers are greedy, but they have a business to run. They are not in the business for our benfit, or the benefit of the players. We are the consumers, and we can go elsewhere. Players are employees, and can got to work are McDonals as far as I care.
Glad you brought up the union thing. Bust the unions I say, especially the public sector unions. In today's business climate, I can't think of anything good a union does. Oh, sorry, I forgot about those evil corporations (and state governments) that expect a good day of work for a ridiculious amout of pay, with a pension sometimes more than 100% of salary.
You can't think of anything good a union does? How about safe working conditions and a decent wage? That came about because of unions. Ask any of your lady friend workers, who are union....they make the same as a guy, where in non-union places they make about 20% less.
Fire & police need unions for personal protective equipment, staffing, & training. Teachers have classroom size language in their contracts, training as well.
We have all benefited from unions in this country. Don't believe all this Tea party rhetoric.
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http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2011/03/nfl_lockout_2011_commissioner.html
NEW YORK, New York –- There will be an NFL season in 2011.
That's what Commissioner Roger Goodell keeps saying. So do many of the owners and lots of players, even though labor talks collapsed, the union dissolved itself, and star players including MVP Tom Brady asked for a preliminary injunction to prevent a lockout hours before the league even implemented one.
Despite the nasty rhetoric of last week, no one would paint the doomsday scenario of no football come September. Instead, we hear Chargers president Dean Spanos say, "We will get through this. There will be a new agreement and we're looking forward to playing football this season."
And we hear Bears president Ted Phillips echo with "A deal will get done and we expect to play football in 2011."
Are they right? And how will they get there?
"There will be no negotiating for a while," said Gary Roberts, dean of the Indiana University School of Law in Indianapolis. "Both sides will wait to see how the legal maneuvering plays out.
"Where we are after all the mediated negotiations is the players reached a point where they figure they can get a better deal if they file an antitrust lawsuit than continue to bargain at the table. The league would have preferred to be in collective bargaining and lock the players out because they feel it's the best way to maximize their leverage.
"Ultimately, come August and September, they feel they will have more leverage to get a better deal."
August? September? Not very encouraging.
"This is classic collective bargaining, with each side using their tactical devices to increase bargaining leverage. At the end of this, before the season is lost, they will hammer out an agreement."
For now, the players will meet in Marco Island, Fla., beginning Wednesday, an annual convention that has taken place in Maui most years — that's where DeMaurice Smith was elected successor to the late Gene Upshaw as executive director in 2009. Smith was charged with keeping the status quo as much as possible because the players liked the deal Upshaw and then-Commissioner Paul Tagliabue struck in 2006.
They will plot strategy for the next few months, hopeful the request for a preliminary injunction filed Friday by Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and seven other players, including Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller, will stop the lockout. The players also filed an antitrust suit against the league.
Should the injunction be granted, the NFL would be forced to operate while a new CBA is discussed, although the rules under which the league would be doing business are uncertain. When the players' strike failed in 1987 and the union decertified in 1989, the situation was similar. And the players' success in the courts eventually led to a new labor pact in 1993 that included free agency.
Decertification means players no longer are protected under labor law but instead are now allowed to take their chances in federal court under antitrust law.
Most importantly from the end of the strike — and the end of the replacement games the NFL staged while the union was on picket lines — until the new agreement was reached, no games were missed.
"As a veteran and lifetime fan of professional football, I have experienced the business with uncertainty firsthand," said Seattle running back/kick returner Leon Washington, who agreed to a new four-year contract two weeks ago. "I feel for the coaches, and facility and stadium employees as their lives could be affected. ... With all this being said, I'm optimistic that there will be football played in 2011."
The owners begin their usual planning for the next season with their annual meetings in New Orleans starting next Sunday. Not that anything is normal about this offseason.
Still, they will hear from the competition committee, which has been meeting on potential rules changes, and will get reports from a variety of other committees. That includes the labor committee that failed to reach agreement with the players.
And the owners also will plot strategy, knowing very well that corporate and broadcast partners and sponsors already are making plans for their late summer and fall spending.
For the next few weeks, fans can get their fill with the NFL draft, a cottage industry unto itself. While fans focus on pro days and workouts for college players headed into the April 28-30 draft, the business side of the game will hunker down in U.S. District Court in Minneapolis, where Brady and his peers brought their lawsuit.
After that, barring court decisions that force some movement, it will be time to get nervous, if not panicky.
"We definitely will not see a deal reached before seeing some of these rulings from the courts," Roberts said. "Neither sides know what their risks are until the court rules.
"As for when the parties begin to feel the heat sufficiently to do a deal, we can't predict. Again, my guess is won't see a deal done before August or September."
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Well if that's the case why don't the owners open the books for the nflpa? If they already have the data which they don't, they should'nt have a problem. The owners want the players to take the pay cut. But I feel the owners are being very dishonest on what they say they make, or there wouldn't be a big deal. Right?
Also the tv money that was given to the nfl was to keep the nfl afloat for the long hall. So that says they wanted the lockout. I can't take sides they both suck. But in my eyes the league seems to be more deceitful.
I seen Jerry jones he looks a little nervous.
After building that stadium he needs football.
Dude, just get this through your head.....How much do you make....open you audited books for us.
The friggen players want to compare what they make with the friggen owner of the business.
How much do you want to bet the average NFL player makes closer to the owner of the business then does any normal union worker??
I won't just bet donuts here....this is a investment bet.
I think players make a high percentage of the take.
Screw the friggen players...I almost hope this does extend....let's see who can hold out before going broke.
I'll bet dollars to donuts Lerner walks away better than players do.
Dude, just get this through your head.....How much do you make....open you audited books for us.
Huh? Wtf are you talking about, "dude"?
I simply stated if the nfl has nothing to hide what's the big deal?
But they do or it would be a non issue.
simple as that.
The friggen players want to compare what they make with the friggen owner of the business.
How much do you want to bet the average NFL player makes closer to the owner of the business then does any normal union worker??
Ahhh. How bout zero. Im starting to think you had one too many whiskey sours. Not sure what you are trying to say or how your linking me with this statement.
I won't just bet donuts here....this is a investment bet.
I think players make a high percentage of the take.
Screw the friggen players...I almost hope this does extend....let's see who can hold out before going broke.
I could honestly care less about who wins or loses I simply stated my .02
it just disgusts me to see people bashing unions like they are all equal. Educate yourselves all it is in the end is the rich turning the middle class against themselves. Its what they want because you know who wins? Not the blue collar Americans.
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Should the injunction be granted, the NFL would be forced to operate while a new CBA is discussed, although the rules under which the league would be doing business are uncertain. When the players' strike failed in 1987 and the union decertified in 1989, the situation was similar. And the players' success in the courts eventually led to a new labor pact in 1993 that included free agency.
interesting.
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Glad you brought up the union thing. Bust the unions I say, especially the public sector unions. In today's business climate, I can't think of anything good a union does. Oh, sorry, I forgot about those evil corporations (and state governments) that expect a good day of work for a ridiculious amout of pay, with a pension sometimes more than 100% of salary.
You can't think of anything good a union does? How about safe working conditions and a decent wage? That came about because of unions. Ask any of your lady friend workers, who are union....they make the same as a guy, where in non-union places they make about 20% less.
Fire & police need unions for personal protective equipment, staffing, & training. Teachers have classroom size language in their contracts, training as well.
We have all benefited from unions in this country. Don't believe all this Tea party rhetoric.
You can't think of anything good a union does? How about safe working conditions and a decent wage? That came about because of unions. Ask any of your lady friend workers, who are union....they make the same as a guy, where in non-union places they make about 20% less.
Fire & police need unions for personal protective equipment, staffing, & training. Teachers have classroom size language in their contracts, training as well.
We have all benefited from unions in this country. Don't believe all this Tea party rhetoric.
Your key word is "have". I don't dispute the benefit unions have provided in the past. Interesting you bring up teachers, though. My wife is a teacher, and the teacher union is one of the top reasons our education system is the way it is (bad, not great). Yearly pay increases tied to nothing but how long they have been there. Why not merit increases? Have a bad teacher, want to get rid of that teacher, quit dreaming. Pensions well above the norm of private sector workers (with little or no contribution), hundreds of days of sick day leave that continue to accrue and can be taken for almost any reason.
Tea Party rhetoric? I'll take lower government intrusion, lower taxes, personal responsibility and less deficit spending all day long. You can have your socialist share the wealth, just don't take my wealth.
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You can't think of anything good a union does? How about safe working conditions and a decent wage? That came about because of unions. Ask any of your lady friend workers, who are union....they make the same as a guy, where in non-union places they make about 20% less.
Fire & police need unions for personal protective equipment, staffing, & training. Teachers have classroom size language in their contracts, training as well.
We have all benefited from unions in this country. Don't believe all this Tea party rhetoric.
Your key word is "have". I don't dispute the benefit unions have provided in the past. Interesting you bring up teachers, though. My wife is a teacher, and the teacher union is one of the top reasons our education system is the way it is (bad, not great). Yearly pay increases tied to nothing but how long they have been there. Why not merit increases? Have a bad teacher, want to get rid of that teacher, quit dreaming. Pensions well above the norm of private sector workers (with little or no contribution), hundreds of days of sick day leave that continue to accrue and can be taken for almost any reason.
Tea Party rhetoric? I'll take lower government intrusion, lower taxes, personal responsibility and less deficit spending all day long. You can have your socialist share the wealth, just don't take my wealth.
Tea Party rhetoric? I'll take lower government intrusion, lower taxes, personal responsibility and less deficit spending all day long. You can have your socialist share the wealth, just don't take my wealth.
Thanks for confirming that you are a lunatic.
"Socialist share the wealth"? WHO bailed out the corporations? The taxpayers. There is some redistribution of wealth for you, idiot. They are taking our wealth and you are defending them. CORPORATE WELFARE! Get a clue!
Also, are you aware that 60% of the top 100 earning corporations in America PAY NO TAXES. Personal responsibility and lower taxes? You make me f*cking laugh.
You are also a fool not to realize it was Bush who ran up the deficit. WHERE were you pricks then? Sucking on Bush's balls you lame sh*t. Now you dare complain like you even understand what a budget or deficit are.
Wealth? All you have is a wealth of ignorance and shameful behavior.
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I am a Fan, therefore, regardless who is/isn't at fault, who is greedy, who is a socialist, liberal, etc.....
I WANT NFL FOOTBALL IN 2011!!!!
THERE, I said it!
To the involved parties...."Git 'er done boys!"
Mike
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Tea Party rhetoric? I'll take lower government intrusion, lower taxes, personal responsibility and less deficit spending all day long. You can have your socialist share the wealth, just don't take my wealth.
Thanks for confirming that you are a lunatic.
"Socialist share the wealth"? WHO bailed out the corporations? The taxpayers. There is some redistribution of wealth for you, idiot. They are taking our wealth and you are defending them. CORPORATE WELFARE! Get a clue!
Also, are you aware that 60% of the top 100 earning corporations in America PAY NO TAXES. Personal responsibility and lower taxes? You make me f*cking laugh.
You are also a fool not to realize it was Bush who ran up the deficit. WHERE were you pricks then? Sucking on Bush's balls you lame sh*t. Now you dare complain like you even understand what a budget or deficit are.
Wealth? All you have is a wealth of ignorance and shameful behavior.
c-dawg said:
Thanks for confirming that you are a lunatic.
"Socialist share the wealth"? WHO bailed out the corporations? The taxpayers. There is some redistribution of wealth for you, idiot. They are taking our wealth and you are defending them. CORPORATE WELFARE! Get a clue!
Also, are you aware that 60% of the top 100 earning corporations in America PAY NO TAXES. Personal responsibility and lower taxes? You make me f*cking laugh.
You are also a fool not to realize it was Bush who ran up the deficit. WHERE were you pricks then? Sucking on Bush's balls you lame sh*t. Now you dare complain like you even understand what a budget or deficit are.
Wealth? All you have is a wealth of ignorance and shameful behavior.
Come on guys take it to political discussion, it isn't football. I'll put my .02 in and shut up. I'll have to a certain extent side with Mr Vozel. If you grew up in Cleveland, ever wonder where all those steel mills went? And why? When I worked down in the flats in the early 70s my mom's cousin was making as much as a crane operator @ Republic Steel as our plant manager was raking in. I was playing team tennis, and one of my teammates (a teacher BTW) had nice time summer employment gig sweeping floors @ J&L for double what I was making as a year of college lab tech. The Steel industry was paying so much in salary they couldn't afford to update decades old equipment, and the Japanese blew them out of the water with higher efficiency mills. Garment workers union? Gone to Sri Lanka or Indonesia sorry to say.
And if you wonder why everything is Made in China I'd suggest you take a look at THIS. Uncle Sam ain't the solution- he's the problem, we have regulations on top of regulations that the Chinese don't have to deal with.
Speaking of teachers- making about $50,000 a year getting three months off every summer, plus every Holiday, and every day (at least in Dayton) when there's 2" of snow when I have to haul my ass into work regardless (health care) is a pretty sweet gig in my book. In the past unions were able to extort wages & benefits that had no relation to the value of the product being produced, and to a certain extent that's still the case.
If you want to blame big bad business or big bad Bush, (who was neither compassionate or conservative) OK by me. Personally I would just as soon have seen GM fail- someone would have come in to pick up the pieces. And I do own stock in a few companies, and without fail every year someone puts a flyer on the annual agenda to limit executive salaries, and every year, it gets voted down, mainly because the executives who run the company have more shares than anyone else combined- you think they're going to take a pay cut?
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Tea Party rhetoric? I'll take lower government intrusion, lower taxes, personal responsibility and less deficit spending all day long. You can have your socialist share the wealth, just don't take my wealth.
Thanks for confirming that you are a lunatic.
"Socialist share the wealth"? WHO bailed out the corporations? The taxpayers. There is some redistribution of wealth for you, idiot. They are taking our wealth and you are defending them. CORPORATE WELFARE! Get a clue!
Also, are you aware that 60% of the top 100 earning corporations in America PAY NO TAXES. Personal responsibility and lower taxes? You make me f*cking laugh.
You are also a fool not to realize it was Bush who ran up the deficit. WHERE were you pricks then? Sucking on Bush's balls you lame sh*t. Now you dare complain like you even understand what a budget or deficit are.
Wealth? All you have is a wealth of ignorance and shameful behavior.
c-dawg said:
Thanks for confirming that you are a lunatic.
"Socialist share the wealth"? WHO bailed out the corporations? The taxpayers. There is some redistribution of wealth for you, idiot. They are taking our wealth and you are defending them. CORPORATE WELFARE! Get a clue!
Also, are you aware that 60% of the top 100 earning corporations in America PAY NO TAXES. Personal responsibility and lower taxes? You make me f*cking laugh.
You are also a fool not to realize it was Bush who ran up the deficit. WHERE were you pricks then? Sucking on Bush's balls you lame sh*t. Now you dare complain like you even understand what a budget or deficit are.
Wealth? All you have is a wealth of ignorance and shameful behavior.
Need I say more? I rest my case.
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Hoorta- the thread is about the lockout, so I just chimed in with my opinion. I'm not going to get into a lenghty argument over unions, get political, etc. on here. You're right, we come here to talk Browns stuff.
I'm done opining on this. I'm not an expert at much, but I do know lots about contract/labor talks.
I just want a 2011 season & beyond.
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i'm watching nfl live and adam schefter is reporting that the nflpa has made a call out to the top 17 players not to show up to the draft.
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adam schefter said (in this order) san francisco, tennessee, carolina, philly (kolb) and washington (mcnabb) are the teams that will be hurt the most by the lockout. herm edwards and mark schlereth(sp?) said cincy (palmer situation) should be on that list to.
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c-dawg said:
Thanks for confirming that you are a lunatic.
"Socialist share the wealth"? WHO bailed out the corporations? The taxpayers. There is some redistribution of wealth for you, idiot. They are taking our wealth and you are defending them. CORPORATE WELFARE! Get a clue!
Also, are you aware that 60% of the top 100 earning corporations in America PAY NO TAXES. Personal responsibility and lower taxes? You make me f*cking laugh.
You are also a fool not to realize it was Bush who ran up the deficit. WHERE were you pricks then? Sucking on Bush's balls you lame sh*t. Now you dare complain like you even understand what a budget or deficit are.
Wealth? All you have is a wealth of ignorance and shameful behavior.
Need I say more? I rest my case.
Need I say more? I rest my case.
Actually, you just conceded. Thinkin' hurts don't it?
Don't you realize the price people had to pay to get these benefits?
You act like all the union injustices since could somehow be equal to all the deaths and abuse that came before unions. You are sad and wrong and a tool of the folks who really have wealth. Here's a clue, you wouldn't be posting here if you had real $.
OK Mods, I am done with this.
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i'm watching nfl live and adam schefter is reporting that the nflpa has made a call out to the top 17 players not to show up to the draft.
i'm watching nfl live and adam schefter is reporting that the nflpa has made a call out to the top 17 players not to show up to the draft.
Meaning the top 17 draft eligible Collegiate players? That would be telling each of those kids to scrap what is probably the biggest day of their life to date. That's unbelievable, but IF true, I hope those kids tell 'em to GO TO HELL!
Mike
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Need I say more? I rest my case.
Actually, you just conceded. Thinkin' hurts don't it?
Don't you realize the price people had to pay to get these benefits?
You act like all the union injustices since could somehow be equal to all the deaths and abuse that came before unions. You are sad and wrong and a tool of the folks who really have wealth. Here's a clue, you wouldn't be posting here if you had real $.
OK Mods, I am done with this.
c-dawg said:
Actually, you just conceded. Thinkin' hurts don't it?
Don't you realize the price people had to pay to get these benefits?
You act like all the union injustices since could somehow be equal to all the deaths and abuse that came before unions. You are sad and wrong and a tool of the folks who really have wealth. Here's a clue, you wouldn't be posting here if you had real $.
OK Mods, I am done with this.
Good job....over & out for me too.
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i'm watching nfl live and adam schefter is reporting that the nflpa has made a call out to the top 17 players not to show up to the draft.
Meaning the top 17 draft eligible Collegiate players? That would be telling each of those kids to scrap what is probably the biggest day of their life to date. That's unbelievable, but IF true, I hope those kids tell 'em to GO TO HELL!
Mike
Meaning the top 17 draft eligible Collegiate players?
Mike
yes.
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Need I say more? I rest my case.
Actually, you just conceded. Thinkin' hurts don't it?
Don't you realize the price people had to pay to get these benefits?
You act like all the union injustices since could somehow be equal to all the deaths and abuse that came before unions. You are sad and wrong and a tool of the folks who really have wealth. Here's a clue, you wouldn't be posting here if you had real $.
OK Mods, I am done with this.
c-dawg said:
Actually, you just conceded. Thinkin' hurts don't it?
Don't you realize the price people had to pay to get these benefits?
You act like all the union injustices since could somehow be equal to all the deaths and abuse that came before unions. You are sad and wrong and a tool of the folks who really have wealth. Here's a clue, you wouldn't be posting here if you had real $.
OK Mods, I am done with this.
I'm glad your happy. Maybe one of these days you will actually be able to have an intelligent conversation without personal name calling. Let me know if that ever happens.
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