Cleveland Attendance
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'Peen,
Normally you & I are in agreement, but not on this one. Dolan bought a team on a record string of sellouts with a SOLID track record of winning & fans buying Tribe gear like it was going out of style. He almost immediately cut payroll, let our good players leave & THEN had the nerve to say he would start spending money when the fans did. In other words, spend top dollar for an inferior product! Not this boy....I don't have money to waste & won't buy another Tribe ticket until he sells the team to a REAL owner. If he didn't have the money & competitive pride to do his best to field a contender, he should not have made the purchase. With the Browns and yes, the Cavs, I see owners really trying to bring winners to Cleveland. I don't see that resolve from Dolan.
End of my rant.
Mike
I know we do, and this is more a point of view then it is agree or disagree, so all is cool here.
I guess my only point is driving the guy further in debt to make a point doesn't seem to be the way to get a better team.
JMO
I know we do, and this is more a point of view then it is agree or disagree, so all is cool here.
I guess my only point is driving the guy further in debt to make a point doesn't seem to be the way to get a better team.
JMO
The key here is that Dolan bought the team strictly for his ego. He wanted to compete with his brother or cousin or whoever it is that runs the Knicks and a couple of other NY based teams, but...he didn't really have the wherewithal to own a major league franchise. He had to pay Jacobs a fairly inflated price for the team.....and then he had to strip the team to make the debt service for its purchase.
It is rumored that instead of taking the money he gets from revenue sharing to improve the team, he is putting that money into paying off the purchase price of the team. And it is my understanding that that was NOT supposed to be the purpose of the revenue sharing funds.
Dolan is an a big Catch 22....or toilet drain. He is like the young couple that buys a huge 4000 square foot house, then he realizes that it takes every penny he earns to pay the mortgage....thus he cannot furnish the house, so he has to use a card table to dine on and a futon to sleep on...and he has to strip the house of its chandeliers and its sconces just to pay the mortgage.
Like that couple, Dolan should have never bought this house to begin with, and like them, his pride and ego are too large to admit his mistake so he refuses to sell.....and continues to sleep on that futon indefinitely.
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I know we do, and this is more a point of view then it is agree or disagree, so all is cool here.
I guess my only point is driving the guy further in debt to make a point doesn't seem to be the way to get a better team.
JMO
The key here is that Dolan bought the team strictly for his ego. He wanted to compete with his brother or cousin or whoever it is that runs the Knicks and a couple of other NY based teams, but...he didn't really have the wherewithal to own a major league franchise. He had to pay Jacobs a fairly inflated price for the team.....and then he had to strip the team to make the debt service for its purchase.
It is rumored that instead of taking the money he gets from revenue sharing to improve the team, he is putting that money into paying off the purchase price of the team. And it is my understanding that that was NOT supposed to be the purpose of the revenue sharing funds.
Dolan is an a big Catch 22....or toilet drain. He is like the young couple that buys a huge 4000 square foot house, then he realizes that it takes every penny he earns to pay the mortgage....thus he cannot furnish the house, so he has to use a card table to dine on and a futon to sleep on...and he has to strip the house of its chandeliers and its sconces just to pay the mortgage.
Like that couple, Dolan should have never bought this house to begin with, and like them, his pride and ego are too large to admit his mistake so he refuses to sell.....and continues to sleep on that futon indefinitely.
The key here is that Dolan bought the team strictly for his ego. He wanted to compete with his brother or cousin or whoever it is that runs the Knicks and a couple of other NY based teams, but...he didn't really have the wherewithal to own a major league franchise. He had to pay Jacobs a fairly inflated price for the team.....and then he had to strip the team to make the debt service for its purchase.
It is rumored that instead of taking the money he gets from revenue sharing to improve the team, he is putting that money into paying off the purchase price of the team. And it is my understanding that that was NOT supposed to be the purpose of the revenue sharing funds.
Dolan is an a big Catch 22....or toilet drain. He is like the young couple that buys a huge 4000 square foot house, then he realizes that it takes every penny he earns to pay the mortgage....thus he cannot furnish the house, so he has to use a card table to dine on and a futon to sleep on...and he has to strip the house of its chandeliers and its sconces just to pay the mortgage.
Like that couple, Dolan should have never bought this house to begin with, and like them, his pride and ego are too large to admit his mistake so he refuses to sell.....and continues to sleep on that futon indefinitely.
Good analogy Gipper
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WOW was I shocked when I attended the Indians game Saturday and only 9800 people were in attendance and they were lucky if that many were there. Sunday was even worse 8700 what is up with that.
I was gonna ask the same thing, i heard them bashing Cleveland on Espn because of there were so many open seats and shit....I dont live in Cleveland but if i did no matter how shitty the Indians were id be there for there Opening Day, Love me some Tribe
I am not surprised. The Dolans have made a concerted effort to alienate the Indians fan base so they are simply reaping what they have sown.
They purposely stripped the team of nearly all the talent they had a couple of years back, then expected the fans to support the minor league product they put on the field. The fans are not that stupid and they are demonstrating that fact. If I want to see minor league baseball I will go to an Akron Aeros game.
I was gonna say...how much support do you expect the fans to give a FARM team. Thats what the Indians have become, a talent grabber for the bigger teams to make a run at the postseason with. I would assume the owners are more worried about the value of a player than the talent that he can bring to the ballpark daily with. It's sad really. This team has made me stop watching baseball as a whole. They need a salary cap in baseball if they plan on saving "America's Pasttime"...
so, this isn't some rival BS question........................but what's the difference between the indians and the browns?
when i said you guys should not show up to browns games to protest the sucktitude of the franchise i was told that that would be a bandwagon fan type thing to do.
but when the indians play in a ballpark that resembles a ghost town it's "what the ownership deserves".
isn't that also what the browns ownership deserves? like i said, not trying in anyway to stir the pot, just wondering.
so, this isn't some rival BS question........................but what's the difference between the indians and the browns?
when i said you guys should not show up to browns games to protest the sucktitude of the franchise i was told that that would be a bandwagon fan type thing to do.
but when the indians play in a ballpark that resembles a ghost town it's "what the ownership deserves".
isn't that also what the browns ownership deserves? like i said, not trying in anyway to stir the pot, just wondering.
The difference is that with the Browns you see the willingness and attempt to turn out a good product on the field...there have just been poor choices made or poor luck. The Browns and Lerner have always tried....they have just been inept.
I don't know that the Indians are all that inept. I think Mark Shapiro has done as good a job as anyone can expect given the circumstances. Its just that the circumstances he is in is intolerable, i.e. ownership. I believe this ownership group willingly got into this venture knowing that they were not up to the task of maintaining the winning ways that it had under Jacobs.
In truth, many here have said that the wrong owners bought the wrong team. The Dolans should have bought the Browns with the NFL's guaranteed income and salary cap, and Lerner should have bought the Indians....because baseball takes deeper pockets and someone willing to risk those deep pockets on bringing a winner. Lerner had the money to compete in baseball where the Dolans don't. (at least not these Dolans).
FYI, when the Browns franchise was up for bid by the NFL, do you know who came in second place in the bid behind Al Lerner?: Charles Dolan.
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The big issue for me is that Baseball as a whole has taken such a huge hit ala "steroids" and other "enhancing" drugs that the commissioner has to take a stand on fixing the league. Stack on top of that, our owner is the cheapest SOB in the MLB and you are giving your fans very little to get excited about. Hence its showing up in attendance and sales as a whole. Giving todays financial circumstances, if the owner doesn't lower prices, or start paying for talent, he is as good as dead as an owner in this league. You go to the games for enjoyment and fun. What they put on the field yearly is neither enjoyable or fun. Add also the great talent they keep trading off (2 consecutive CY YOUNG winners?) and it seems like we are living the Major League movies for real...
Who let the DAWGS out?? -
The big issue for me is that Baseball as a whole has taken such a huge hit ala "steroids" and other "enhancing" drugs that the commissioner has to take a stand on fixing the league. Stack on top of that, our owner is the cheapest SOB in the MLB and you are giving your fans very little to get excited about. Hence its showing up in attendance and sales as a whole. Giving todays financial circumstances, if the owner doesn't lower prices, or start paying for talent, he is as good as dead as an owner in this league. You go to the games for enjoyment and fun. What they put on the field yearly is neither enjoyable or fun. Add also the great talent they keep trading off (2 consecutive CY YOUNG winners?) and it seems like we are living the Major League movies for real...
The big issue for me is that Baseball as a whole has taken such a huge hit ala "steroids" and other "enhancing" drugs that the commissioner has to take a stand on fixing the league. Stack on top of that, our owner is the cheapest SOB in the MLB and you are giving your fans very little to get excited about. Hence its showing up in attendance and sales as a whole. Giving todays financial circumstances, if the owner doesn't lower prices, or start paying for talent, he is as good as dead as an owner in this league. You go to the games for enjoyment and fun. What they put on the field yearly is neither enjoyable or fun. Add also the great talent they keep trading off (2 consecutive CY YOUNG winners?) and it seems like we are living the Major League movies for real...
Except Miami already got their team.
Plus, really, what market is out there trying to lure a baseball team to their town? Charlotte? Nashville? Indianapolis? San Antonio? Las Vegas?
Actually, you know where I would put a team if it were up tome? New York/New Jersey. I would try to siphon off a ton of the Yankees support.
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Yeah there should be a policy where as long as your fans and city support you then you have to spend money and make your team at least a contender,otherwise just sell the fing team so someone who actually cares about the Indians will
Yeah there should be a policy where as long as your fans and city support you then you have to spend money and make your team at least a contender,otherwise just sell the fing team so someone who actually cares about the Indians will
Well, I don't know about policy unless you are talking personal policy...then I agree.
As a citizen you should support the teams/arts in your community at least every now and then.
I see the local orchestra 3-4 times a year, and it isn't my thing. Hell, I even attend a Opera once in a while, and I hate that.
When in Cleveland in recent years I have caught The Cleveland Symphony a few times and been to 2-3 plays on the Square. The Art Museum has been closed the last few years but I think it's open again. You can bet that will fill up one of my Saturday afternoons.
In my opinion, you need to support what is going on in your community. It's where you live and one way or the other, these venues help make where you live a better place.
I'd love if a MLB team was here in Chattanooga, but, we have a AA team of the Dodgers.....but it's the Lookouts....our team, so I go a good number of games a year even if I leave come the 5th inning.
I don't care about UTC Moc's sports, but I buy tickets even if I don't go.
Heck....when is the last time you went to the zoo???
Maybe I'll do that another Saturday afternoon.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
We are Zoo members & also support as many local venues as possible. I totally agree with supporting the Community. That being said, & this just being MY opinion, if I support the Indians under Dolan's ownership & style, I am ENABLING him to continue "fleecing" us without producing, or even ATTEMPTING to produce, a high quality product. If he can make the bucks by saving money by feeding us mediocrity, he will do it (as he HAS). It ain't a whole lot different than handing a full jug of booze to an alcoholic so they won't keep asking for it. My stance is that I will NOT further enable Larry Dolan in the hope that he will sell to someone who WANTS to see a Champion in Cleveland. Are you reading this, Mr Gilbert?
Mike
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The big issue for me is that Baseball as a whole has taken such a huge hit ala "steroids" and other "enhancing" drugs that the commissioner has to take a stand on fixing the league. Stack on top of that, our owner is the cheapest SOB in the MLB and you are giving your fans very little to get excited about. Hence its showing up in attendance and sales as a whole. Giving todays financial circumstances, if the owner doesn't lower prices, or start paying for talent, he is as good as dead as an owner in this league. You go to the games for enjoyment and fun. What they put on the field yearly is neither enjoyable or fun. Add also the great talent they keep trading off (2 consecutive CY YOUNG winners?) and it seems like we are living the Major League movies for real...
The big issue for me is that Baseball as a whole has taken such a huge hit ala "steroids" and other "enhancing" drugs that the commissioner has to take a stand on fixing the league. Stack on top of that, our owner is the cheapest SOB in the MLB and you are giving your fans very little to get excited about. Hence its showing up in attendance and sales as a whole. Giving todays financial circumstances, if the owner doesn't lower prices, or start paying for talent, he is as good as dead as an owner in this league. You go to the games for enjoyment and fun. What they put on the field yearly is neither enjoyable or fun. Add also the great talent they keep trading off (2 consecutive CY YOUNG winners?) and it seems like we are living the Major League movies for real...
Steroids and the phony records they produced are one issue- if there was any integrity, those "records" should be stuck. As others said, I'll start following baseball when there's a salary cap and floor. I'm sick of seeing the Yankees and Rex Sox treat other franchise like Farm Clubs. From a SW Ohio perspective Joey Votto is outta Cinti as soon as he's eligible for FA.
And Ghoolie has it right- back in the Muni days, there were games where the Tribe didn't draw 1,000. Never happen but the season is too long- let's have snowouts the first week in April, and play the World Series in 30 degree football weather. I'm not going to pay $25 bucks to freeze my ass off watching a totally meaningless early season game- and at least in this case the fans are voting with their feet. As Jacobs proved, put talent on the field, and the seats WILL fill back up.
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Yeah there should be a policy where as long as your fans and city support you then you have to spend money and make your team at least a contender,otherwise just sell the fing team so someone who actually cares about the Indians will
Well, I don't know about policy unless you are talking personal policy...then I agree.
As a citizen you should support the teams/arts in your community at least every now and then.
I see the local orchestra 3-4 times a year, and it isn't my thing. Hell, I even attend a Opera once in a while, and I hate that.
When in Cleveland in recent years I have caught The Cleveland Symphony a few times and been to 2-3 plays on the Square. The Art Museum has been closed the last few years but I think it's open again. You can bet that will fill up one of my Saturday afternoons.
In my opinion, you need to support what is going on in your community. It's where you live and one way or the other, these venues help make where you live a better place.
I'd love if a MLB team was here in Chattanooga, but, we have a AA team of the Dodgers.....but it's the Lookouts....our team, so I go a good number of games a year even if I leave come the 5th inning.
I don't care about UTC Moc's sports, but I buy tickets even if I don't go.
Heck....when is the last time you went to the zoo???
Maybe I'll do that another Saturday afternoon.
Well, I don't know about policy unless you are talking personal policy...then I agree.
As a citizen you should support the teams/arts in your community at least every now and then.
I see the local orchestra 3-4 times a year, and it isn't my thing. Hell, I even attend a Opera once in a while, and I hate that.
When in Cleveland in recent years I have caught The Cleveland Symphony a few times and been to 2-3 plays on the Square. The Art Museum has been closed the last few years but I think it's open again. You can bet that will fill up one of my Saturday afternoons.
In my opinion, you need to support what is going on in your community. It's where you live and one way or the other, these venues help make where you live a better place.
I'd love if a MLB team was here in Chattanooga, but, we have a AA team of the Dodgers.....but it's the Lookouts....our team, so I go a good number of games a year even if I leave come the 5th inning.
I don't care about UTC Moc's sports, but I buy tickets even if I don't go.
Heck....when is the last time you went to the zoo???
Maybe I'll do that another Saturday afternoon.
While I agree with most of what your saying, there is still the same holes in your arguement. Say the McDonalds you own(ed) has crappy service, but creates revenue and jobs within a local community. Should I force myself to eat there for the sake of the community or boycott it until something is done about the service? I know, I know....McDonalds and the Indians have 2 different connections to people, but they are both businesses trying to earn a living off the locals. Its not really a very different arguement than anyone else presented but more related to you.
The fact that the Indians have a monopoly on the baseball market doesn't necessarily mean they should get special treatment. If its crap you don't buy it, but at the same time I agree with you that you shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face. If you don't go support the team you leave the owner little means to ever improve the team.
However, as you know, owning a business involves risk. If its not working you either cut your losses or create a means to improve your product. Maybe Dolan should risk investing in some real talent in hopes that people will come watch them play. I know Mcdonalds takes risks all the time investing in new items that the public may like or not like. It made them one of the most successful franchises in the world. Jmo.
Right now they are not playing THAT bad and deserve to have a crowd in front of them. Its not time to throw in the towel. So for now your arguement is holding its weight for sure, but it is hard to convince people to spend their money on a 20-50 team if it comes to that. And I can't blame them.
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Everyone just needs to settle down - the Tribe had just gotten blown out the day before and it was a packed house for Opening Day. The day after everyone was nursing their hangovers and didn't feel like heading back out to 30 degrees and rain. Same thing for Sunday.
There's a fair share of blame on City "leaders" as well. They've taken what was a GREAT downtown atmosphere not too long ago and allowed it to be completely ruined. Thus, many people don't make weekends of it like they used to.
In the 90's, you would often see fans at the stadium not only because they were winning, but also because they would head downtown after the game, grab some dinner and head to the Flats for a good time. Catch a hotel, and do the same thing on Saturday. Another hotel, catch the Sunday game and then head home.
Nowadays people make the trek to the game and head home afterward. Once they're home, it's too easy to find reasons not to head back up to C-town.
Face it, our City is run by THE worst leaders of any somewhat major city. Our 'Mayor' is a friggin' idiot as is all of Council.
CHANGE IS GOOD -
Everyone just needs to settle down - the Tribe had just gotten blown out the day before and it was a packed house for Opening Day. The day after everyone was nursing their hangovers and didn't feel like heading back out to 30 degrees and rain. Same thing for Sunday.
There's a fair share of blame on City "leaders" as well. They've taken what was a GREAT downtown atmosphere not too long ago and allowed it to be completely ruined. Thus, many people don't make weekends of it like they used to.
In the 90's, you would often see fans at the stadium not only because they were winning, but also because they would head downtown after the game, grab some dinner and head to the Flats for a good time. Catch a hotel, and do the same thing on Saturday. Another hotel, catch the Sunday game and then head home.
Nowadays people make the trek to the game and head home afterward. Once they're home, it's too easy to find reasons not to head back up to C-town.
Face it, our City is run by THE worst leaders of any somewhat major city. Our 'Mayor' is a friggin' idiot as is all of Council.
Everyone just needs to settle down - the Tribe had just gotten blown out the day before and it was a packed house for Opening Day. The day after everyone was nursing their hangovers and didn't feel like heading back out to 30 degrees and rain. Same thing for Sunday.
There's a fair share of blame on City "leaders" as well. They've taken what was a GREAT downtown atmosphere not too long ago and allowed it to be completely ruined. Thus, many people don't make weekends of it like they used to.
In the 90's, you would often see fans at the stadium not only because they were winning, but also because they would head downtown after the game, grab some dinner and head to the Flats for a good time. Catch a hotel, and do the same thing on Saturday. Another hotel, catch the Sunday game and then head home.
Nowadays people make the trek to the game and head home afterward. Once they're home, it's too easy to find reasons not to head back up to C-town.
Face it, our City is run by THE worst leaders of any somewhat major city. Our 'Mayor' is a friggin' idiot as is all of Council.
amen brother, seriously. The sad truth is if a Cleveland sports team were to win a championship I think things would open up SO much too.
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Everyone just needs to settle down - the Tribe had just gotten blown out the day before and it was a packed house for Opening Day. The day after everyone was nursing their hangovers and didn't feel like heading back out to 30 degrees and rain. Same thing for Sunday.
There's a fair share of blame on City "leaders" as well. They've taken what was a GREAT downtown atmosphere not too long ago and allowed it to be completely ruined. Thus, many people don't make weekends of it like they used to.
In the 90's, you would often see fans at the stadium not only because they were winning, but also because they would head downtown after the game, grab some dinner and head to the Flats for a good time. Catch a hotel, and do the same thing on Saturday. Another hotel, catch the Sunday game and then head home.
Nowadays people make the trek to the game and head home afterward. Once they're home, it's too easy to find reasons not to head back up to C-town.
Face it, our City is run by THE worst leaders of any somewhat major city. Our 'Mayor' is a friggin' idiot as is all of Council.
Everyone just needs to settle down - the Tribe had just gotten blown out the day before and it was a packed house for Opening Day. The day after everyone was nursing their hangovers and didn't feel like heading back out to 30 degrees and rain. Same thing for Sunday.
There's a fair share of blame on City "leaders" as well. They've taken what was a GREAT downtown atmosphere not too long ago and allowed it to be completely ruined. Thus, many people don't make weekends of it like they used to.
In the 90's, you would often see fans at the stadium not only because they were winning, but also because they would head downtown after the game, grab some dinner and head to the Flats for a good time. Catch a hotel, and do the same thing on Saturday. Another hotel, catch the Sunday game and then head home.
Nowadays people make the trek to the game and head home afterward. Once they're home, it's too easy to find reasons not to head back up to C-town.
Face it, our City is run by THE worst leaders of any somewhat major city. Our 'Mayor' is a friggin' idiot as is all of Council.
I think it is absurd to think that because there may not be decent bars and restaurants downtown that that hinders the Tribe's attendance. First off, there are tons of decent bars and restaurants downtown.
Secondly, the regional economy is very poor and that affects a person's choices of entertainment such that, as someone said,they are not going to pay for crappy entertainment. Why should someone pay to see Ishtar when they can see The Godfather instead? And anyone is a fool if they don't recognize that Dolan has completely alienated the fan base. I don't know much about local Cleveland City politics, but I will wager that whatever is going on with the local government is barely a factor at all in the Tribe's attendance problems.
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I agree, there are plenty of nice bars in the downtown area, but then again, I am kind of a redneck boy....the good type....as long as the beer is cold, there are a few good looking women in the place, and there are at least a few country music selections on the juke box, life is good.
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