Hillis And The Wco
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Yeah i feel the same the WCO is very difficult to learn and theres all different types of concepts to it...
I dont think they would use Hillis as a lead blocker theres really no point in doing it also considering we just used a 4th round pick on a FB i sure hope hes blocking some people with authority which means Hillis wouldnt have to..
And my High School also was putting in the WCO but whats even crazier is that the middle school i know the are running the Triangle offense
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Of course, all y'all gotta remember that the WCO is really the NCO, the North Coast Offense, as that offense is really just a regurgitation perhaps with a few modifications of what Paul Brown ran here with Otto Graham at QB. Bill Walsh was a Paul Brown assistant and disciple and adapted what he learned under PB to his team in San Fran when he got a Head coaching gig.
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Of course, all y'all gotta remember that the WCO is really the NCO, the North Coast Offense, as that offense is really just a regurgitation perhaps with a few modifications of what Paul Brown ran here with Otto Graham at QB. Bill Walsh was a Paul Brown assistant and disciple and adapted what he learned under PB to his team in San Fran when he got a Head coaching gig.
Of course, all y'all gotta remember that the WCO is really the NCO, the North Coast Offense, as that offense is really just a regurgitation perhaps with a few modifications of what Paul Brown ran here with Otto Graham at QB. Bill Walsh was a Paul Brown assistant and disciple and adapted what he learned under PB to his team in San Fran when he got a Head coaching gig.
I hate to burst your bubble but the WCO did not originate with Paul Brown...If you look at this paragraph and the link I posted it will explain moe clearly where it evolved from. http://www.westcoastoffense.com/history.htm
The Walsh offense owes much to the past. As a Raiders' assistant in 1966, Walsh learned under Al Davis and John Rauch, who was the Raider's head coach. Raiders football was based on the theories of Sid Gillman. Al Davis had taken Gillman one step further. This system became the basis of Walsh's offense.
Gillman brought refinement to the game. Every technique and skill was isolated. In the Raiders organization, Walsh had no barriers to restrict creativity. It was a fully dimensional approach. For example, a system was developed for offensive line blocking that used almost all conceivable blocking combinations. It took time to learn it, but when the linemen mastered it they were well equipped to handle any situation.
The pass offense included an almost unlimited variety of pass patterns as well as a system of calling them. Coach Walsh used backs and tightends more than anybody in the NFL in his passing game.
In 1968, Coach Walsh joined Paul Brown in his new franchise in Cincinnati. While in Cleveland, Paul Brown implemented a highly organized structure and format that transformed the game to the modern era. In Cincinnati, Coach Walsh was the wide receiver coach and became responsible for the passing game. Coach Walsh used much of what he learned with the Raiders to create the Cincinnati passing attack.
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Cutting Hillis back to 7 - 10 carries per game is the desired goal here. Saving him for pouind-it-out yards, and occasionally handing off to him on downs one would expect a pass.
I don't think it will be cut that much....I am thinking he will carry more like 10-20 times a game. The 20 in games where we get a lead and then pile up the yards and carries in the 4th qtr much like Riggins did with the Skins.
Riggings went in to halftime with 30 yards but by games end he had 115.
But on a whole...I agree...Hillis will carry less and I am not sure how much more involved in the passing game he can be since he had a boatload of receptions last season...seems like it was around 60 catches.
Hillis poses a problem for me in my keeper league...I am wondering if I should trade him.
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Anybody else notice all the interest's King Ghoolie Lives has listed. Pretty funny, Im a big proponent of peanut buster parfaits myself.
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http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html
Bill Walsh's early NFL career
When you actually sit down and try to summarize how you pursued the major goals in your life, it is relatively difficult to determine from which point you should began. Most people interested in football want to know where did Walsh develop his professional philosophies, and in particular the West Coast offense.
All factors considered, the birth of the West Coast offense started with the legendary Paul Brown, from whom Walsh worked for in Cincinnati, and the offensive genius Sid Gillman. Gillman made his mark in 10 seasons with the San Diego Chargers, leading them to five championship appearances.
Walsh learned from Gillman when Gillman hired him with the Oakland Raiders. Walsh gives credit to Gillman as being the biggest influence in his early career. Gillman was just one of the numerous pro coaches whom Walsh studied from. Walsh also credits individuals such as Blanton Collier, Al Davis, Don Coryell and Clark Shaughnessy, the legendary Stanford coach and Chicago Bear assistant to George Halas who brought the T formation into college and professional football.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
This is a BIT of good news.
Shurmur at least realizes that The Browns can't win if they feature HIllis as the main back.
Straight ahead, too predictable, too easy to stuff. Just as I have said all along, for Hillis to have NAY success in 2011 the Browns need offensive weapons and diversions to keep defenses form keying on Hillis.
Cutting Hillis back to 7 - 10 carries per game is the desired goal here. Saving him for pouind-it-out yards, and occasionally handing off to him on downs one would expect a pass.
Hillis is big and powerful. But he isn't bigger and more powerful than 5 defensive players keying on him.
Hillis' career just got extended thanks to the WCO.
Like I said before, Hillis can be on the order of Roger Craig. 1000-1200 yards rushing. 500-600 yards receiving on like 50-60 catches. 12-15 TDs rushing and receiving. If the Browns used him that same way, like Craig, he could be around for 6-7 more years.
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Of course, all y'all gotta remember that the WCO is really the NCO, the North Coast Offense, as that offense is really just a regurgitation perhaps with a few modifications of what Paul Brown ran here with Otto Graham at QB. Bill Walsh was a Paul Brown assistant and disciple and adapted what he learned under PB to his team in San Fran when he got a Head coaching gig.
I hate to burst your bubble but the WCO did not originate with Paul Brown...If you look at this paragraph and the link I posted it will explain moe clearly where it evolved from. http://www.westcoastoffense.com/history.htm
The Walsh offense owes much to the past. As a Raiders' assistant in 1966, Walsh learned under Al Davis and John Rauch, who was the Raider's head coach. Raiders football was based on the theories of Sid Gillman. Al Davis had taken Gillman one step further. This system became the basis of Walsh's offense.
Gillman brought refinement to the game. Every technique and skill was isolated. In the Raiders organization, Walsh had no barriers to restrict creativity. It was a fully dimensional approach. For example, a system was developed for offensive line blocking that used almost all conceivable blocking combinations. It took time to learn it, but when the linemen mastered it they were well equipped to handle any situation.
The pass offense included an almost unlimited variety of pass patterns as well as a system of calling them. Coach Walsh used backs and tightends more than anybody in the NFL in his passing game.
In 1968, Coach Walsh joined Paul Brown in his new franchise in Cincinnati. While in Cleveland, Paul Brown implemented a highly organized structure and format that transformed the game to the modern era. In Cincinnati, Coach Walsh was the wide receiver coach and became responsible for the passing game. Coach Walsh used much of what he learned with the Raiders to create the Cincinnati passing attack.
I hate to burst your bubble but the WCO did not originate with Paul Brown...If you look at this paragraph and the link I posted it will explain moe clearly where it evolved from. http://www.westcoastoffense.com/history.htm
The Walsh offense owes much to the past. As a Raiders' assistant in 1966, Walsh learned under Al Davis and John Rauch, who was the Raider's head coach. Raiders football was based on the theories of Sid Gillman. Al Davis had taken Gillman one step further. This system became the basis of Walsh's offense.
Hello! McFly. Is anybody home? Who do you think Sid Gillman learned from? He was an assistant under PB at both Miami, Ohio and with the Browns.
Gillman brought refinement to the game. Every technique and skill was isolated. In the Raiders organization, Walsh had no barriers to restrict creativity. It was a fully dimensional approach. For example, a system was developed for offensive line blocking that used almost all conceivable blocking combinations. It took time to learn it, but when the linemen mastered it they were well equipped to handle any situation.
The pass offense included an almost unlimited variety of pass patterns as well as a system of calling them. Coach Walsh used backs and tightends more than anybody in the NFL in his passing game.
In 1968, Coach Walsh joined Paul Brown in his new franchise in Cincinnati. While in Cleveland, Paul Brown implemented a highly organized structure and format that transformed the game to the modern era. In Cincinnati, Coach Walsh was the wide receiver coach and became responsible for the passing game. Coach Walsh used much of what he learned with the Raiders to create the Cincinnati passing attack.
Oh? And you think that Paul Brown, who was his boss and who may have been the greatest coaching genius of all time had absolutely no influence on Walsh?
So, both Gillman, and Walsh learned under PB, but nothing that PB had to say came through into the WCO that both of them ran.
Yea, and the Beatles music all came out of McCartney and Lennon's head. They didn't have any influences on them like say Chuck Berry or Buddy Holly.
I am not saying that Walsh didn't modify and extrapolate on what he learned from PB and Gillman, but you better ass believe the basis of Walsh's WCO came from PB.
All you have to do is look at tape of the Browns offense under Otto Graham.
What does it remind you of?: The 49ers offense of the 80s.
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Saturday, April 04, 2009
Sid Gillman, "Father of the Modern Passing Game," notes on passing offense
Sid Gillman, along with Paul Brown, basically invented modern football. Bill Walsh left his stamp, but he was largely just making systematic what those two had already created. Brown, an approach to football itself -- gameplanning, huddling, drawing up plays (the modern convention of Xs and Os and diagrams looking how they do can basically be attributed to him).
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I never said PB didnt have any influence on Walsh...of course he did...But it just seems that all of you want to make the WCO A direct bi-product of PB and its not...I dont care what any of you say...The link speaks for itesf...But somehow you all want PB to take credit for something Walsh developed from several Systems. All Im saying is what the article clearly demonstrates. The WCO is a bi-product of several offenses not just PB's. Everyone is trying to make it a PB/Cleveland thing...And the only real cleveland thing about it is Bernie Kosar is credited for actually giving the WCO its name.
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I never said PB didnt have any influence on Walsh...of course he did...But it just seems that all of you want to make the WCO A direct bi-product of PB and its not...I dont care what any of you say...The link speaks for itesf...But somehow you all want PB to take credit for something Walsh developed from several Systems. All Im saying is what the article clearly demonstrates. The WCO is a bi-product of several offenses not just PB's. Everyone is trying to make it a PB/Cleveland thing...And the only real cleveland thing about it is Bernie Kosar is credited for actually giving the WCO its name.
I never said PB didnt have any influence on Walsh...of course he did...But it just seems that all of you want to make the WCO A direct bi-product of PB and its not...I dont care what any of you say...The link speaks for itesf...But somehow you all want PB to take credit for something Walsh developed from several Systems. All Im saying is what the article clearly demonstrates. The WCO is a bi-product of several offenses not just PB's. Everyone is trying to make it a PB/Cleveland thing...And the only real cleveland thing about it is Bernie Kosar is credited for actually giving the WCO its name.
Something you have to understand about Bill Walsh: he was the supreme egotist. He DID learn much of what was in the WCO from PB and Gillman, but he would never admit that directly. He wanted to take credit for something that he developed, yet, there was far less originality in his "WCO" than he took credit for. Yes, he modified and tinkered with the concepts that he got from PB and Gillman, but he sure as hell didn't invent the WCO out of the blue as sometimes he would like to suggest.
The thing that he did? He was successful. Yes, he was a good coach, but not the ultimate creator of that offense.
It would be like Reese's claiming they invented both chocolate and peanut butter. Well, they didn't invent either, they just put them together and it worked out well, which is pretty much what Walsh did. And it helped Walsh that he hired a pretty good cook by the name of Joe Montana. His offense wasn't working all that great when he had Steve DeBerg running it.
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I never said PB didnt have any influence on Walsh...of course he did...But it just seems that all of you want to make the WCO A direct bi-product of PB and its not...I dont care what any of you say...The link speaks for itesf...But somehow you all want PB to take credit for something Walsh developed from several Systems. All Im saying is what the article clearly demonstrates. The WCO is a bi-product of several offenses not just PB's. Everyone is trying to make it a PB/Cleveland thing...And the only real cleveland thing about it is Bernie Kosar is credited for actually giving the WCO its name.
Something you have to understand about Bill Walsh: he was the supreme egotist. He DID learn much of what was in the WCO from PB and Gillman, but he would never admit that directly. He wanted to take credit for something that he developed, yet, there was far less originality in his "WCO" than he took credit for. Yes, he modified and tinkered with the concepts that he got from PB and Gillman, but he sure as hell didn't invent the WCO out of the blue as sometimes he would like to suggest.
The thing that he did? He was successful. Yes, he was a good coach, but not the ultimate creator of that offense.
It would be like Reese's claiming they invented both chocolate and peanut butter. Well, they didn't invent either, they just put them together and it worked out well, which is pretty much what Walsh did. And it helped Walsh that he hired a pretty good cook by the name of Joe Montana. His offense wasn't working all that great when he had Steve DeBerg running it.
Something you have to understand about Bill Walsh: he was the supreme egotist. He DID learn much of what was in the WCO from PB and Gillman, but he would never admit that directly. He wanted to take credit for something that he developed, yet, there was far less originality in his "WCO" than he took credit for. Yes, he modified and tinkered with the concepts that he got from PB and Gillman, but he sure as hell didn't invent the WCO out of the blue as sometimes he would like to suggest.
The thing that he did? He was successful. Yes, he was a good coach, but not the ultimate creator of that offense.
It would be like Reese's claiming they invented both chocolate and peanut butter. Well, they didn't invent either, they just put them together and it worked out well, which is pretty much what Walsh did. And it helped Walsh that he hired a pretty good cook by the name of Joe Montana. His offense wasn't working all that great when he had Steve DeBerg running it.
Agreed...DeBerg was a career back up for the better part of his career. But Im just simply saying consider all of the factors that went into it and Im not in any way trying to underscore Browns influence but like the article said credit was also given to Al Davis on John Rausch also who didnt have much to do with Paul Brown and nor did LaVelle Edwards who also was a big influence on Walsh.
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Something you have to understand about Bill Walsh: he was the supreme egotist. He DID learn much of what was in the WCO from PB and Gillman, but he would never admit that directly. He wanted to take credit for something that he developed, yet, there was far less originality in his "WCO" than he took credit for. Yes, he modified and tinkered with the concepts that he got from PB and Gillman, but he sure as hell didn't invent the WCO out of the blue as sometimes he would like to suggest.
The thing that he did? He was successful. Yes, he was a good coach, but not the ultimate creator of that offense.
It would be like Reese's claiming they invented both chocolate and peanut butter. Well, they didn't invent either, they just put them together and it worked out well, which is pretty much what Walsh did. And it helped Walsh that he hired a pretty good cook by the name of Joe Montana. His offense wasn't working all that great when he had Steve DeBerg running it.
Agreed...DeBerg was a career back up for the better part of his career. But Im just simply saying consider all of the factors that went into it and Im not in any way trying to underscore Browns influence but like the article said credit was also given to Al Davis on John Rausch also who didnt have much to do with Paul Brown and nor did LaVelle Edwards who also was a big influence on Walsh.
Agreed...DeBerg was a career back up for the better part of his career. But Im just simply saying consider all of the factors that went into it and Im not in any way trying to underscore Browns influence but like the article said credit was also given to Al Davis on John Rausch also who didnt have much to do with Paul Brown and nor did LaVelle Edwards who also was a big influence on Walsh.
Like I said, it is like the Beatles and who influenced them: Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley....even throw in Sophie Tucker.
The following is just a sampling of Paul Browns coaching tree:
Coaching treeThe following coaches either coached under or played for Paul Brown and were influenced at least to some degree by him and his football knowledge and offensive system:
Blanton Collier (coach under Paul Brown)
Weeb Ewbank (coach under Paul Brown)
Abe Gibron (player)
Sid Gillman (coach)
Otto Graham (player for Paul Brown)
Bill "Tiger" Johnson (coach under Paul Brown)
Chuck Noll (player for Paul Brown)
Ara Parseghian (player for Paul Brown)
Lou Saban (player for Paul Brown)
Don Shula (player for Paul Brown)
Bill Walsh (coach under Paul Brown)
Bruce Coslet (player and head coach under team President Paul Brown)
Sam Wyche (player and head coach under team President Paul Brown)
And let's face it, many of these guys have their own "coaching tree" which are a couple of generations removed. So, we can get biblical here. Paul Brown begat Sid Gillman who begat Bill Walsh who begat Mike Holmgren who begat Pat Shurmur. See how that works?
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One thing I have learned from researching things is that Bill Parcells did not apparently learn his trade through the influences of the likes of Paul Brown, Lombardi, Landry, etc. that a lot of today's coaches came through.
His primary coaching influences actually came from the college ranks, and not necessarily football. His biggest influence in his coaching career came from none other than Bobby Knight, who actually was greatly influence by Woody Hayes. He also learned under Ray Perkins, who was coached by Bear Bryant. So that branch of coaching, which includes the likes of Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin, Mangini, Crennell, Sean Payton et al came more from the collegiate ranks.
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One thing I have learned from researching things is that Bill Parcells did not apparently learn his trade through the influences of the likes of Paul Brown, Lombardi, Landry, etc. that a lot of today's coaches came through.
His primary coaching influences actually came from the college ranks, and not necessarily football. His biggest influence in his coaching career came from none other than Bobby Knight, who actually was greatly influence by Woody Hayes. He also learned under Ray Perkins, who was coached by Bear Bryant. So that branch of coaching, which includes the likes of Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin, Mangini, Crennell, Sean Payton et al came more from the collegiate ranks.
One thing I have learned from researching things is that Bill Parcells did not apparently learn his trade through the influences of the likes of Paul Brown, Lombardi, Landry, etc. that a lot of today's coaches came through.
His primary coaching influences actually came from the college ranks, and not necessarily football. His biggest influence in his coaching career came from none other than Bobby Knight, who actually was greatly influence by Woody Hayes. He also learned under Ray Perkins, who was coached by Bear Bryant. So that branch of coaching, which includes the likes of Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin, Mangini, Crennell, Sean Payton et al came more from the collegiate ranks.
..I know...I also have that walsh coaching tree as My banner on another forum lol...And I was aware of Parcells background...Sam Rutigliano was from the Lombardi tree as well if Im not mistaken..but I think the over all point is football is all the same plays, its just a matter of likes and and application. And lets not understate what Brown brought to the game because every playbok has Paul Brown in there...id say pretty much the lions share...I thought he did more for the game than any other coach before or after him. Wich I dont understand why its called the Lombardi trophy...I thought it was one hell of a snub by the NFL.
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I just think that you can really compare his physical abilities to Steven Jackson in St. Louis and look what he did last year under Shurmer. Plus Hillis still had 4.4 yards a carry while teams knew he was the Browns only offensive option. He should do fine next year with the pass taking heat off of him.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
I don't think Hillis will again hit the 1000 yard mark. Roger Craig wasn't as big and he had more moves.
Again, don't get me wrong, I know he is a tough, strong bastard. IF the Browns had some other offensive weapons he could relaly be effective. As it is, I think he is going to get smothered in 2011.
I think the point of instituting this North-West Coast offense is to spread the ball around to more players; to get those wide receivers more involved in timing pass plays; to spread it around more to the tight ends and the backs; and, to open up more holes in the running game. I do not believe they are going to be running the ball up the gut on every play. This offense is supposed to be designed to improve the production of even our mediocre receiving corps.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
I don't think Hillis will again hit the 1000 yard mark. Roger Craig wasn't as big and he had more moves.
Again, don't get me wrong, I know he is a tough, strong bastard. IF the Browns had some other offensive weapons he could relaly be effective. As it is, I think he is going to get smothered in 2011.
Ghooli stop trolling this forum. You have no idea what your talking about. Anything that is Browns your being negative on. Grow up.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
I don't think Hillis will again hit the 1000 yard mark. Roger Craig wasn't as big and he had more moves.
Again, don't get me wrong, I know he is a tough, strong bastard. IF the Browns had some other offensive weapons he could relaly be effective. As it is, I think he is going to get smothered in 2011.
Ghooli stop trolling this forum. You have no idea what your talking about. Anything that is Browns your being negative on. Grow up.
Ghooli stop trolling this forum. You have no idea what your talking about. Anything that is Browns your being negative on. Grow up.
Well, Ghoolie is not a troll. He is an origninal on Browns message boards from the early days of the internet. And he does know a lot of what he is talking about, even though sometimes, like in this case, you or I might disagree with him.
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Ghooli stop trolling this forum. You have no idea what your talking about. Anything that is Browns your being negative on. Grow up.
Well, Ghoolie is not a troll. He is an origninal on Browns message boards from the early days of the internet. And he does know a lot of what he is talking about, even though sometimes, like in this case, you or I might disagree with him.
Well, Ghoolie is not a troll. He is an origninal on Browns message boards from the early days of the internet. And he does know a lot of what he is talking about, even though sometimes, like in this case, you or I might disagree with him.
Is lack of knowledge is ridiculous. Here is 2 points. 1. He said Hillis should only touch the ball 5 to 10 times a game. 2. Hillis will never see 1,000 yards again. He is trolling.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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