We Should Have Kept Mangini And His System, Holmgren And Shurmer Suck
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Mik - be smart enough to keep this forum about Browns football. BTW, you don't have the nads to go over and argue stupid stuff on the other board,
then why complain like a sissy?
Yes, I'm serious. It's the oline. The plays don't work, many times, because of the right side of the oline. Bleachreport says exactly what I've been saying...
it isn't like I made it up to get attention.
For instance. the Niners. They drafted their LT, FIRST ROUND, 2007.
They drafted their LOG... FIRST ROUND, 2010
They drafted their C/ROG in the THIRD ROUND, 2005
They drafted their ROT in the FIRST FREAKIN ROUND in 2010.
Excuse me, but that says you must pay attention to your offensive line. And, it's a huge reason for the Niners' success on offense.
Let me ask you guys this:
Even with a solid oline - and a first rounder at qb, and rb, (I think it was), a first rounder at TE, et c etc... and this oline....
how do you figure they only scored 20 points on the Browns... and how the freakin do you think that the Browns kicked their arses on the goal line stand?
Did Gore all of a sudden turn into a bust at rb? Or, do you think that the offensive line forgot how to block?
The answer is: The Niners offensive line and Gore ran straight into our excellent defense that was playing on all cylinders on that goal line stand.
It's about matchups. Colt and his wr's and his right side oline does not match up well with most, if not all, defenses they face. It isn't all on Colt, anymore
than the goal line stand was all on Smith, the Niners qb.
Seriously? Do you think that Colt was a bum and "held onto the ball too long" when Pashos completely whiffed on his block and McCoy got nailed
in that first series?
When Dan Fouts says Colt had absolutely no chance on that play.... I believe that before I believe the hc is a bum, the fo are bums, all the players on offense are bums,
all the coaches are bums, Lerner is a bum, the popcorn sellers are bums, the whole world....
It's baloney. It's more complex than just whining. Colt made some mistakes.... big freakin deal. A lot of qb's make mistakes under pressure.
I have great confidence that if Colt isn't the guy, it will be decided without ignoring the right side of the offensive line failures.
The Browns WILL draft a RT, or sign a good one. Just like the Niners did. FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS AT BOTH ENDS OF THE OFFENSIVE LINE AND ROG.
And they have the skills players. And they certainly are winning games. Come ON.
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i agree OL. but to say the browns aren't bad?
c'mon man!
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This thread is hilarious, mostly because most of the posters have no clue as to what is the problem
it is the end zone
we have no PEOPLE who threaten the end zone play by play
but we have zillions invested in five OL's the last 11 years
and twenty uselss DL's
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Mik - be smart enough to keep this forum about Browns football. BTW, you don't have the nads to go over and argue stupid stuff on the other board,
then why complain like a sissy?
Yes, I'm serious. It's the oline. The plays don't work, many times, because of the right side of the oline. Bleachreport says exactly what I've been saying...
it isn't like I made it up to get attention.
For instance. the Niners. They drafted their LT, FIRST ROUND, 2007.
They drafted their LOG... FIRST ROUND, 2010
They drafted their C/ROG in the THIRD ROUND, 2005
They drafted their ROT in the FIRST FREAKIN ROUND in 2010.
Excuse me, but that says you must pay attention to your offensive line. And, it's a huge reason for the Niners' success on offense.
Let me ask you guys this:
Even with a solid oline - and a first rounder at qb, and rb, (I think it was), a first rounder at TE, et c etc... and this oline....
how do you figure they only scored 20 points on the Browns... and how the freakin do you think that the Browns kicked their arses on the goal line stand?
Did Gore all of a sudden turn into a bust at rb? Or, do you think that the offensive line forgot how to block?
The answer is: The Niners offensive line and Gore ran straight into our excellent defense that was playing on all cylinders on that goal line stand.
It's about matchups. Colt and his wr's and his right side oline does not match up well with most, if not all, defenses they face. It isn't all on Colt, anymore
than the goal line stand was all on Smith, the Niners qb.
Seriously? Do you think that Colt was a bum and "held onto the ball too long" when Pashos completely whiffed on his block and McCoy got nailed
in that first series?
When Dan Fouts says Colt had absolutely no chance on that play.... I believe that before I believe the hc is a bum, the fo are bums, all the players on offense are bums,
all the coaches are bums, Lerner is a bum, the popcorn sellers are bums, the whole world....
It's baloney. It's more complex than just whining. Colt made some mistakes.... big freakin deal. A lot of qb's make mistakes under pressure.
I have great confidence that if Colt isn't the guy, it will be decided without ignoring the right side of the offensive line failures.
The Browns WILL draft a RT, or sign a good one. Just like the Niners did. FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS AT BOTH ENDS OF THE OFFENSIVE LINE AND ROG.
And they have the skills players. And they certainly are winning games. Come ON.
Yes, I'm serious. It's the oline. The plays don't work, many times, because of the right side of the oline. Bleachreport says exactly what I've been saying...
lmao...do you even realize that the bleacherreport is composed of articles written largely by fans and not professional sports analysts (no offense mikey
)?its a chicken or the egg arguement cal....i can easily look up several OLs that are comprised of players from all rounds and undrafteds on successful teams. what you are completely missing is that there are ways to help the OL by way of schemes and playcalls. have you noticed that we are facing 8 or 9 in the box almost exculsively, or that we see as many as 7 coming on the blitz? tell me any OL that can blcok 7 Cal....
so then ask yourself why we see such frequent blitzing....one reason could be that shumur is a complete nincompoop and doesnt adjust his system/scheme to max protect...he just puts alex smith on the right end and has him chip then do a pattern. the guard play has been generally unimpressive...that ill agree with....but to imply that these guys have al of a sudden forgot how to block is simply the easy way out when one cannot see why they're missing blocks. either the blocking schemes are poorly conceived or incorrectly taught....and that is a coaching problem. RB's are missing their pickups and frequently whiffing. add to all this a struggling QB who doesn't understand the system with a pop gun cannon for an arm and it further adds to the ability for defenses to cheat up with no fear of getting burned.
cribbs TD was a miracle and more a terrible play by the CB rather than a good play by the QB. that ball was once again underthrown and should have been picked off....actually i cant remember a single deep pass (25+ yds) by noodles this year that was not either underthrown or a jump ball. sadly, there is only one way to fix this this year....noodles has to start beating the blitz...cause until he does, defenses are gonna blitz the living hell outta him knowing he'll rarely make them pay. i dont care if we field a line of all 1st rounders....there is no way in hell they can routinely block the number of defenders that are blitzing.
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rich: if you have no time because there is no blocking and you're getting sacked..how do you have time to throw?
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Here's what I don't understand. It's pretty obvious that you have to keep a defence "off balance" in the NFL to have a prayer of winning. You can't be predicable or simple. This isn't High School Football. How does an offence do that? 1) Play action, 2) Screens, 3)mis-direction, 4) pump fake, 5) crossing patterns, 6) The deep threat - keeping them from encrouchment into the box or on-top of the recieivers because it could be a go-route or a post play 7) ... etc. etc.
But the Browns don't do any of this. There is no balance of plays so they become predictable. Why? I know they can execute these plays but they are never called.
Case 1: Browns on their one-half yard line. It's a handoff to the full back followed by a fake mis-direction to the halfback. I think they gained a yard on the play. If they did the opposite, faked to the fullback and tossed the mis-direction to the half back, it goes for 10 yards if not more. Whatch your PVR. The 49ers were totally fooled on the play.
Case 2: Two consecutive passes go for more than 10 yards as Colt hits his tight ends. Why did we have to wait until the game was in the 4th quarter to see those plays. They were needed in the first quarter.
Case 3: Colt throws an terrible interception that killed an important drive. OK so it was a stupid throw into double coverage. But did you see the energy on that throw and the perfect spiral on the ball? Colt can throw the ball 20 to 30 yeards downfield with accuracy (even though people on this board think he can't). Shurmer has got to get his head out of his ass and give Colt the opportunity to make plays like the TD throw to Cribbs.
I don't agree with the board's opinion on the players. We have some quality there. But I do agree that 1) The WCO has got to go! And 2) Shurmer needs to hire an OC and concentrate on being the HC.
And yes, Holmgren is an ass for decisions on both 1 & 2. And yes, this team has digressed.
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mikeyP72 said:
I disagree about Bleacher Report but I'm biased.
i do to a point....sometimes the most informative opinions are those who are not financially vested in the game. they tend to be more objective, less controversial, and less shock-journalists. however, many times emotion bleeds into the writing...which i fully understand. one really cant cite the site as a source to make an argument one way or the other....the writer pool is large enough that you can find another article on there that provided the opposite argument.
i like reading your stuff on there, cause i know you go t a level head and you see the game well. not knowing most of the other writers, i can only judge by how/what they write. Yet, its an absolutely great place that not only gives everyone who wants a voice a chance, but a great resource to get away from the mainstream idiots that talk before they think.
i wasnt trying to bag on ya bro...
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Mangini's greatest issue was that he stuck with a bad OC which was his undoing. HAd Daboll been replaced by a half decent OC then we would have been better.
This offense seems like it is capable of doing stuff but the playcalling seems to be so bad that nothing clicks until we get to the 4th quarter and up the tempo and by then it is too late.
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I don't see it as playcalling, with only a few exceptions this season. I used to sit there and call the freakin plays.
Most of us could. Well, except for Rich and Ghoolie....
Seriously, though - all I said was, the bleacherreport article said what I said, and that means,
it isn't just me. It's announcers, other sportswriters, sports hosts on the radio...
The question - why do other teams blitz ? Because they know they will get past the right side of the oline, and they know
that the Browns do not have a dangerous deep threat because even if they did, the oline doesn't give enough time,
and they just cover the short routes, and bingo.
Another thing - "last year's offense was better than this years?" Come on, man.
Last year they had a hugely successful battering ram accounting for most of their success. They had the vet Steinbach healthy.
Little is a terrific talent - that's why they double covered him, especially on that end zone pass. Should Colt have thrown it?
Probly' not. Except the only way to get the ball downfield, is to throw it early, and hope for the best. There is no time at all to
sit there and wait for checkdowns to be open. THAT is the oline.
The defense is the huge bright spot with the Browns this year. That means Holmgren, Heckert and co. are flat out doing
a great job. I look for a CB, WR, RT, OG and LB to be the Browns major picks this coming spring, not in any particular order maybe....depending on whether or not
they can add a major piece of the offense via FA. Luck will obviously be the first pick, it's easy to figure - but the Browns won't pick a qb in the first round -
outside of Luck, the rest of the first round field can't hold a candle to McCoy with the Browns. Go research it.
The attention the Niners paid to their oline, and the squeelers, and stupid, stinkin ratbirds paid to their offensive line lets them
use different skill players, and it still works. Because the blocking is there. When the blocking isn't there - even Gore gets his butt kicked again and again and again
at the goal line. Would an undrafted FA out of whatsamattayou jr. college be as good a rb as Gore? No. But it was Gore running the ball and getting stuffed into the turf
several times in the red zone. Finally, go look at the scores of a bunch of lopsided games around the NFL.
The Browns are playing very close games, despite the offense not working yet. How the freakin can the entire Browns team suck, when the defense
is kicking ass often? The offense needs maybe three impact players out of next years draft. Then watch the different, along with a healthy Hillis.
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both holmgren and his blow boy shurmur are way out of their league this year.
with holmgren it's his out-dated ways. with shurmur it's his naitivity and lack of experience.
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im having a hard time taking u seriously...
great D? how is letting gore run for 100+ yards in a half a great D? gave up 17 points....in the first half. one was a short field....another was the longest possible field.
theyre doing OK, but hardly great. know why we're a top rated passing D? cause everyone runs all over us all day long...as well as facing some horrid passing offenses. next week will show u that...
the offense...that why i said chicken or the egg....is it the QB's inability to throw downfield or the OL's ability to block? probly both at the moment.....but having better protection is NOT gonna make colt suddenly be able to throw the long ball. its a physical limitation on the kid. he doesn't possess the arm. cribbs can outrun his flutterballs...speeds not gonna help either.
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The line sucks, but McCoy sucks far worse.
I am sick of the excuses for him. I get that he is young but he has been awful.
If you put Rodgers, Brady, Berger, Peyton or Brees on this team we would be moving the ball.
great players overcome adversity.
As far as Shurmer, and H&H. Shurmer bit off more then he could chew. This was obvious from day 1. Rookie HC should not be a coordinator as well. Especially a rookie HC who had no business getting a HC job. Granted Shurmer did a good job helping a rookie QB along, but at the end of the day the Rams offense as a whole was very pedestrian. Obviously I don't blame Shurmer for this ... this is all on Walrus. Walrus has been around long enough to have known this guy couldn't handle both positions.
As far as Heckert.... I dont know how the hell anyone could complain about this guy after the 2 drafts we have had, and the third that he has lined up for us. He has had 6 first and second round picks in his 2 years and 4 out of the 6 look like very good players and potential pro bowlers. The other 2 are Little and Hardesty ... Little looks like he has a ton of potential and has made some really nice plays. Monatrio has looked decent so far but keep in mind it does take some time before he will get his full burst back from the injury sustained last season. With that being said ... I hope he uses our 2 first rounder and our second next year on a CB, OLB, and either OLB/DE. I feel like the way he has been drafting that will upgrade our defense from average to good ... and potentially be a yr away from having a really great D. (obviously we would also need to retain DQ)Please don't rebuttle this with you are suppose to hit in the first and second round ... because historically we haven't and over the last 2 years we have consistently. We had one of the top drafts each of the last 2 years.
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^with ya all the way....and an OL with our second. tempted to go with a WR but really, colt will never have the arm to beat anyone passing. at best, he's a game manager. build a solid running game and great D and ask noodles to pass only when needed. get the QB and WRs in 2013
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Wow. OK. Show me one team that has molded their O & D schemes around personnel and been successful LONG TERM. Successful teams do it the other way around, they pick players to fit their schemes; it takes a little time. Most importantly they don't listen to whiney bitches on message boards who can't wait more than 5 games (2 of which were wins) to start calling for a coach's head.
Get a grip. 3-4 isn't a terrible record unless you really expected the Browns to go to the playoffs. You really didn't think they would, did you?
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It's worse than 99's team. We have more talent on this team that we may have ever had and we look as bad or worse than we ever have. It's aweful. Mangini made the hard decisions and got these guys playing like a family. Now, with better talent, they are being set up to fail and look like they just want to go home and sleep the season through. It's disgusting.
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really 3-4 is worse than ever? what about the 2009 season.
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really 3-4 is worse than ever? what about the 2009 season.
really 3-4 is worse than ever? what about the 2009 season.
Yes because we are doing much less with way more. And nobody has felt good about any of our wins this year.
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some of you need to get over yourself, your a joke.
I understand that everybody gets upset after a loss, so do I..
The truth is if we had a healthy Hillis and Hardesty its a different game.
Steinbach out really hurts our O-line, it is what it is...
Calling for Holmgren and Shurmer head is a joke, even thou I do not agree with our offense playcalling give it time.
Again I ask this quistion eveytime this comes up, you want Holmgren to go away. How would you replace him with??
You relize Holgren goes, so does Heckrett and Shurmer and Juron..So we start over again,then new FO comes in with there new system and we suck even longer than you will want them fired. Get over it.
I have idea, just jump off the Browns wagon and go to the Packers Bandwagon so you can stop Bitching....
We do need a right side of the line, we do need a QB( we will have Colt for at least 2 yrs, so get use to him) we do need a playmaker WR.
We better resign DQ the man is a beast!!!
We need a another CB....
On the Bright side Ohio State won, and my Fantasy team kicked as with Vick,MegaTron and Cincy Defense alone !!!!
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some of you need to get over yourself, your a joke.
I understand that everybody gets upset after a loss, so do I..
The truth is if we had a healthy Hillis and Hardesty its a different game.
Steinbach out really hurts our O-line, it is what it is...
Calling for Holmgren and Shurmer head is a joke, even thou I do not agree with our offense playcalling give it time.
Again I ask this quistion eveytime this comes up, you want Holmgren to go away. How would you replace him with??
You relize Holgren goes, so does Heckrett and Shurmer and Juron..So we start over again,then new FO comes in with there new system and we suck even longer than you will want them fired. Get over it.
I have idea, just jump off the Browns wagon and go to the Packers Bandwagon so you can stop Bitching....
We do need a right side of the line, we do need a QB( we will have Colt for at least 2 yrs, so get use to him) we do need a playmaker WR.
We better resign DQ the man is a beast!!!
We need a another CB....
On the Bright side Ohio State won, and my Fantasy team kicked as with Vick,MegaTron and Cincy Defense alone !!!!
Again I ask this quistion eveytime this comes up, you want Holmgren to go away. How would you replace him with??
You replace Holmgren with NO ONE!!! It's a joke position made by Bill Parcels for the Dolphins. How did that little experiment end up? The Dolphins are crap now.
I understand Lerner wanted a football "guru" to take oversight of the team, but his pick of Shurmur of being HC and OC coming from the shitty Rams OC alone made me question his decision making. Move crappy Shurmur to OC and get the Fat Walrus to HC and maybe we'll get some kind of improvement.
You relize Holgren goes, so does Heckrett and Shurmer and Juron..So we start over again,then new FO comes in with there new system and we suck even longer than you will want them fired. Get over it.
Take the who lot, except Heckert. He's the only bright spot of this current regime. Heckert looks like the golden child with his picks compared to Sewages. At least we're starting to get talent but we're still a long, LONG way to getting enough talent to build a playoff team.
The coaches can't even use the little talent we have effectively, which is something Mangini and Ryan did.
Two steps forward (drafting) two hundred steps back (coaching).
end rant...
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How does Ryans defense look in Dallas????
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