People Complaining About Holmgren
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1. retaining mangini for a wasted year....
2. a nepotism hiring of someone with zero HC experience and only 2 years experience leading the 29th and 26th ranked offenses in the league
3. not hiring an OC for said terrible HC hire
4. hillis debacle
Choco
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1. Not a mistake. It was fair to give him a chance.
2. The squeelers hired Bill Cowhers who had zero experience. Every head coach at one point, was hired with "zero hc experience". Come on. That's dumb.
3. The defense is coming along nicely - still a few weaknesses, like LB, and CB. Maybe DE if one is right at the right pick.
4. Hillis fired his first two agents... and got pouty all by himself. There isn't much else Shurmur could have done.
That's dumb whining.
And the picks of Taylor and Sheard were outstanding. The pick of Little in the second was outstanding. Pinkston is a starter,
Just say "NO" to blabber.
1. retaining mangini for a wasted year....
2. a nepotism hiring of someone with zero HC experience and only 2 years experience leading the 29th and 26th ranked offenses in the league
3. not hiring an OC for said terrible HC hire
4. hillis debacle
Choco
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1. Not a mistake. It was fair to give him a chance.
2. The squeelers hired Bill Cowhers who had zero experience. Every head coach at one point, was hired with "zero hc experience". Come on. That's dumb.
3. The defense is coming along nicely - still a few weaknesses, like LB, and CB. Maybe DE if one is right at the right pick.
4. Hillis fired his first two agents... and got pouty all by himself. There isn't much else Shurmur could have done.
That's dumb whining.
And the picks of Taylor and Sheard were outstanding. The pick of Little in the second was outstanding. Pinkston is a starter,
Just say "NO" to blabber.
And all of those picks were by Heckert, not Shurmur.
The one point Shurmur apologists rally behind is something Shurmur has little to do with. Heckert is the GM, and the GM is in charge of scouting and acquisition of players. The coach no doubt is part of the process, but barely. The coach's job is to win on Sundays, which Shurmur rarely does.
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Well, if Shurmur should be canned for the offense, he should get a raise for the defense.
No coach will ever come in and have a winning season with a serious lack of talent.
It is never going to happen. The Browns would look very, very different if Steinback hadn't gotten hurt,
and Hillis was good to go like last year, and a legit RT was on board...
and a solid cb was added to the mix...
Disgust at a losing season is with all of us. I'm not seeing the blame should be put on Shurmur, despite his actions a few times
that pretty much aggravate me.
The whining over Shurmur without due attention paid to the severe weakness at RT is just barking up the wrong tree.
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mikeyP72 said:
And...and..if the Browns had a pony!
We can talk IF's all day... if Heckert and Holmgren would have gotten a real RT, CB, WR this conversation would still be happening. Shurmur's in over his head and isn't stepping up like Holmgren imagined.
Everyone wanted H and H to make moves and they didn't.
There were tons of people content with the roster and who said we would be fine. Where are those people now, were u one of them?
I was one of those content with the roster after the draft. Not that I didn't think we needed talent ... because I knew we did. It was more that I wanted to see a front office finally build through the draft especially because it appears this front office does know how to draft.
Sure we could have upgraded some spots that needed upgrades ... but at what expense?? The top tier talents available wouldn't have come here to play as they wanted to play for winners. After that it was middle of the road talent (don't get me wrong some were better then what we have) that we would have had to overpay to get them to play here ... on a team they look at as a losing team.
In all honesty if a guy is just going to come here to play because we paid him the most knowing we don't have a shot to do much do you really want that player?? He is guy who just comes here to collect his paycheck.
For those who do not thin building through the draft is the right approach or that it is working look at it like this ... Our defense has played well this year .... We have spent 4 first and second round picks in the past 2 years on the defensive side of the ball. That isn't a coincidence. That is the plan. The offense sucked because they haven't spent high picks on it aside from Little this year.
Even with Little though he is a WR and it takes most WRs a couple of years to develop. Rookie WR's very rarely come into the league and have a huge season. They show potential and make strides as the season goes on and that has certainly been what Little has done. Not to mention that the rest of the offense has been terrible from the Line to the QB to the RB to the play calling.
The only big mistake H&H have made has been Shurmer ... but that was a HUGE mistake
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yeah why haven't we heard from him? at least to give us an opinion on how he thinks the season is going so far.
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mikeyP72 said:
Our defense is 30th in the NFL against the run and our record is 3-6. I don't share your optimism and faith in relying solely on drafted players. No one has ever clamored for or advocated signing aging or overpriced FAs.
Literally, never once has anyone said that.
It's something people on the other side of this disagreement continually spout. It's like Republican or Democrat propaganda it's so funny.
So Jonathon Joseph is over priced, Nate Clements? Anyone other than Sheldon Brown?
Jayme Mitchell is the best they could do at DE for the money? I thought Heckert was supposed to be a front office wizard and this talent was the best he could do?
Those guys sat there in the preseason and told US they were making all the moves to improve upon a 5-11 team in which they FIRED Eric Mangini for not being successful enough.
Holmgren, Shurmur, Heckert... hell even the Whipple homo who is "mentoring" McCoy said the Browns were drafting, trading, signing and playing to compete in 2011. VERBATIM.
They SET A BAR they themselves will not even come close to reaching.
This pathetic team will not win 6 games, let alone the 5 Mangini recorded.
So, we backtracked... why?
So Holmgren could feel happy in his pants that HIS system was being run on the field? Guess what Holms, you aren't the head coach, your job is to hire COMPETENT people to prepare, mentor and coach during game time.
NOT HIRE INCOMPETENT LACKEY'S OF YOUR ANTIQUATED SYSTEM.
Shurmur was a crony hire. Nothing more, nothing less.
Now, it's blowing up in his face and he's going to keep his big walrus mouth shut and sit back on his way to the bank.
Shurmur isn't going anywhere. Get used to it.
I feel you man. Joseph would have been a good signing. Rumor had it he was one of the players that we actually did want. At the end of the day though if you were him where would you go and play??? Would you want to go to a team who has an already established great O and was trying to put together a good D in which you could be a big stride in assembling and putting them over the top or would you rather waste your prime years on the Browns who are installing an entirely new O and D in your first year with the team and have shown no sort of franchise stability?
Signing a guy isn't that easy to do. It takes 2 to tango and the player you want to sign has to also want to come here.
Plus you are very quick to point out that the Browns D is 28 against the run ... why not mention that they are first against the pass?
As far as Nate Clements I agree he is better then Sheldon Brown ... but he is 32/33 years old. Even if he is better then Sheldon this year how much does he really have left?? He isn't a long term solution. He is a hole to plug ... much like Sheldon Brown is.
The area that made most sense to upgrade would have been adding a linebacker and a DE, but there was nothing special out there (that I could remember off the top of my head)aside from a couple MLB's but we have DQ and he has been playing very well.
Also if I remember correctly the front office was pretty open to not wanting to make a splash in free agency. So I am not really sure why you had such high expectations.
As far as the front office saying the team was going to better ... What were you expecting them to say???
"We are installing a new offense, and new defense ... have a second year QB we want to evaluate and a rookie head coach so we are going to suck" ? of course he is going to blow smoke up the fans collective asses. I am not saying it is the right thing to do ... but what else could he have said? Coporate America lies a lot. Business is business. This is no different.
Point is we suck. But in years past we sucked and the GM was headed in one direction, the coach in another, and the players in another all with a common goal to win.
Atleast now the GM, coach, and players all know what the team is looking do. They want to run the WCO and a 4-3 D. And they are going out and trying to find guys who fit into what they want to do. Not just going out and singing guys who have had success on other teams in other systems.
It is premature to be calling for heads a little more then halfway through the year. Give them another draft and free agency period and a full off season and next year you will see huge strides. Playoffs? not a chance ... but 7-9/8-8 and not a total shit product.
Hopefully some continuity will breed some success.
Mikey, just to add something else ... The biggest mistake this regime has made was imo letting Mangini stay last year. I personally am a Mangini supporter. I would have loved to see him stay as long as they got him a new OC. The problem I have though is giving him that year to prove himself really set us back.
The way I see it is like this ... The only way Mangini would have stayed was if we either made the playoffs or made a legit run at the playoffs. That was an unrealisitc barometer for last years team because we didn't have the talent as it was yr 2 after the team got gutted from the past regimes mistakes and the schedule was tough. If they would have just fired him from the jump to bring in Holgrams "guy" we would have been in year 2 of the "system" they wanted.
I truly believe that Holmgram knew he was firing Mangini after the season and I feel the draft in 2010 dictated that ... Haden and Ward are both guys that you can transition into a 4-3 for when he would inevitably switch and Colt was looked at as a good fit for the WCO. The rest of the players that we picked that are on the team were interchangeable pieces as well (Hardesty, Lauvuo, Mitchell, ETC.) We desperately needed Linebackers and Ends in 2010 but he would have wasted picks on those types of players they wouldn't really translate from 3-4 to 4-3.
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Why should Shurmur get praise for the defense? It's Jauron's defense. He's the DC. Once again, another thing people are trying to give credit to Shurmur for that he doesn't deserve.
Shurmur is the HC and the OC. The offense is anemic, and the players look and sound like they've already given up. They're questioning teammates, and there's a severe lack of urgency and passion for each game.
And the RT is not the reason for the awful offensive performances. I'm an offensive lineman, I know games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage. But no one lineman is the sole cause. There's many more things in play here than just the lack of talent across the board.
A coordinator has to change his gameplan to fit his players. I understand hes trying to implement a system, but a good coach knows how to win in the meantime. It's going to take time to get the players that fit the system, but that doesn't mean we just pack it in and essentially just practice on Sundays until we get those players. You have to adapt. That's what good coaches do. Shurmur does not adapt. He is bullheaded and stupid. That's it. Plain and simple.
Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter. It's fact.
FWIW: On passing plays, the RT is the least important offensive position for a right handed QB. I guess that's a matter of opinion, but I've heard it in high school, college and in semi-pro. Being that he's directly in the QB's line of vision, it makes sense.
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Least important, whatever.
The Browns RT has been directly the cause of failed plays. He IS there for a reason.
What do you want to bet, that the Browns WILL draft or sign a top RT, and he starts in Pashos's place next year ?
I don't bet money, and I don't have any tomatoes.... never mind the bet....
Running plays and pass plays are getting blown up from the right side.
It's a serious weakness. It isn't all of it, never said it was. It's too easy to just double up on Little with no other talented main wr in the mix.
I've said rb. But when McCoy got blasted and fumbled the ball on the first series on his second step from the los?
The guy who hit McCoy came in straight inside the RT, after a fake rush to the outside. That is seriously the RT killing any chance of running whatever
play that was called. It happens a lot.
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I get what you are saying, and I agree RT is a serious weakness. But don't you think a good coach would gameplan for having a weak RT? Put a TE over there, combo block, or run heavy right with another lineman in place of TE. Heavy would actually be preferable, seeing as the main philosophy of the offense seems to be pounding the rock.
Shurmur is making absolutely no changes to his playbook. This week, I'll admit, he did show glimpses of adapting by implementing a trick play and shotgun on first down.
I do believe we will be active in searching for a RT. It would be stupid not to. But before that, we're going to need a new OC...this experiment just isn't working. It's not so much the lack of success, it's the complete predictability and blandness of our offense. If I can sit on the couch and call the plays we're running before the snap, you know damn well the opposing DC knows what we're running too.
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Why should Shurmur get praise for the defense? It's Jauron's defense. He's the DC. Once again, another thing people are trying to give credit to Shurmur for that he doesn't deserve.
Shurmur is the HC and the OC. The offense is anemic, and the players look and sound like they've already given up. They're questioning teammates, and there's a severe lack of urgency and passion for each game.
And the RT is not the reason for the awful offensive performances. I'm an offensive lineman, I know games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage. But no one lineman is the sole cause. There's many more things in play here than just the lack of talent across the board.
A coordinator has to change his gameplan to fit his players. I understand hes trying to implement a system, but a good coach knows how to win in the meantime. It's going to take time to get the players that fit the system, but that doesn't mean we just pack it in and essentially just practice on Sundays until we get those players. You have to adapt. That's what good coaches do. Shurmur does not adapt. He is bullheaded and stupid. That's it. Plain and simple.
Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter. It's fact.
FWIW: On passing plays, the RT is the least important offensive position for a right handed QB. I guess that's a matter of opinion, but I've heard it in high school, college and in semi-pro. Being that he's directly in the QB's line of vision, it makes sense.
Why should Shurmur get praise for the defense? It's Jauron's defense. He's the DC. Once again, another thing people are trying to give credit to Shurmur for that he doesn't deserve.
Shurmur is the HC and the OC. The offense is anemic, and the players look and sound like they've already given up. They're questioning teammates, and there's a severe lack of urgency and passion for each game.
And the RT is not the reason for the awful offensive performances. I'm an offensive lineman, I know games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage. But no one lineman is the sole cause. There's many more things in play here than just the lack of talent across the board.
A coordinator has to change his gameplan to fit his players. I understand hes trying to implement a system, but a good coach knows how to win in the meantime. It's going to take time to get the players that fit the system, but that doesn't mean we just pack it in and essentially just practice on Sundays until we get those players. You have to adapt. That's what good coaches do. Shurmur does not adapt. He is bullheaded and stupid. That's it. Plain and simple.
Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter. It's fact.
FWIW: On passing plays, the RT is the least important offensive position for a right handed QB. I guess that's a matter of opinion, but I've heard it in high school, college and in semi-pro. Being that he's directly in the QB's line of vision, it makes sense.
What you said for the most part is spot on. Shurmer does have a great deal of trouble adapting to what his players/team is able to do.
He is in way to over his head. He needs an OC.
As far as Shurmer not being the one to get credit for the D ... I don't know if that was directed at me. I wasn't giving Shurmer credit for it. I was pointing out that the D is what the front office has been investing in in the draft and was just pointing out that we are seeing there plan prosper a little bit so far early on.
To be honest as much as we need RT, WR, and RB I wouldn't hate for us to draft LB, CB and either a pass rushing LB or DE with the first 3 picks in the this upcoming draft. The way we have been drafting in the early rounds if we hit on even 2 of those 3 position we are looking at having an elite defense sooner then later. We would also be able to move Sheldon Brown to free safety and potentially upgrade that spot as well by making that move.
Then in RD 3 we can take a pretty decent running back.
We can then sign a RT in free agency and a nice WR.
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Just a general reply.
At this point it is folly to talk about who needs to be replaced. It just isn't going to happen.
We may add some people, and possibly replace a lower level coach or two, but serious though about changing FO staff or head coaches is talk for next season.
Carry on.
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