Interesting Qb Discussion

bringbackbrownie2

@browns57 said:

Seems like we have this discussion each week, and I believe the post above really sums up where we are with McCoy. Wallace has played better or just as well IMO. Can we all agree that Wallace is not a starting QB in this league? If so, by that logic McCoy is not a starting QB either!!!

The Browns will pick between 3 and 8 this year! There is a perfect opportunity to make the move. Three solid Qb's at least that will go in the first round. A sleeper in Kellen Moore possible hanging out there too. There is a possibility the Rams get the first pick and take Luck. If so does Shurmer reach out to get Bradford from St. Loius? Is Kyle Orten a FA optionif we want to challenge Colt in camp and use our top picks on WR, RB or other playmakers for this team?

IMO the sooner we move McCoy to the bench the sooner we improve! Well, that is if Shurmer learns how to coach!

You are comparing a 9 year veteran QB to another QB with 1.5 years experience. Which has the potential to improve? It's simple - the younger one. Young QBs aren't perfect. Colt hasn't been perfect but neither was Drew Brees in his 2nd year as a starting QB (3rd season in the league). Brees had worse stats in his 2nd year than McCoy has this year. look it up if you don't believe me. Brees had 11 TDs and 15 picks with a QB rating in the high 60s. Colt has thrown for 15 TDs and 11 picks with a 74 rating.

I'm not saying McCoy is for sure the long term answer at QB, but we need to get some WRs, RB depth, and fix the right side of our offensive line before we throw another QB under center. It's been hard enough to judge McCoy with the players he has to work. Why give some other QB the same inept offense to deal with?

I believe H and H will let McCoy start another year (which is the right choice imo) while fixing the rest of the offense (as well as the defense). We will most likely draft a QB in the later rounds (maybe one of our 4th rounders) and see what McCoy can do with an improved offense. Then in 2013, we will know for sure if QB is a priority. We still have so many holes on both sides of the ball to waste a pick on a QB real high in the draft.

The Gipper

@ppe6.6 said:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/12/cleveland_browns_colt_mccoy_ha_1.html

What does everyone think of this? Ive been arguing these exact same points with all my typical, unrealistic browns buddies but they are all for getting rid of colt and drafting RG3 and its makes me sick to my stomach how dumb people are. Getting rid of people every year and starting fresh hasnt worked for how long now?

I happen to pretty much agree with this.

The Gipper

@kamac19 said:

No your totally right there, and same as others have said that McCoy might just be in the wrong system(Shit Coaching/Play calling)That is what am worried about fact that we will keep Shurmur, when should really be him getting the boot and trying McCoy out with weapons and a System that suits him better, or at least is more suited to more QB's so it is easier to integrate a new one into it if Colt doesnt make the giant steps he needs to next year.I honestly think McCoy would have managed that game against the Ravens better than Wallace. but RG III wont fit into Shurmurs crap system that much better if they went and got him in the Draft.

I actually think McCoy would probably suit Shurmur's system better than RGIII might. The thing we may need is Shurmur's system....or should I say Holmgren's system, Bill Walsh's system, Paul Brown's system, without Shurmur running it.

I still think it is highly possible that they bring in the unemployed Mike Sherman to the the OC next year.

A Holmgren/WCO guy with a winning track record as both an OC and HC. And he is only like 53 years old.

The Gipper

@browns57 said:

Seems like we have this discussion each week, and I believe the post above really sums up where we are with McCoy. Wallace has played better or just as well IMO. Can we all agree that Wallace is not a starting QB in this league? If so, by that logic McCoy is not a starting QB either!!!

What I would not agree with is that Wallace has played better, or even equal to MCoy.

The Browns will pick between 3 and 8 this year! There is a perfect opportunity to make the move. Three solid Qb's at least that will go in the first round. A sleeper in Kellen Moore possible hanging out there too.

Kellen Moore is 5'11". And most people are saying that McCoy at 6'2" is too short.

There is a possibility the Rams get the first pick and take Luck. If so does Shurmer reach out to get Bradford from St. Loius? Is Kyle Orten a FA optionif we want to challenge Colt in camp and use our top picks on WR, RB or other playmakers for this team?

I do NOT see either Bradford or Orton as an upgrade over McCoy. An RGIII might be. I would far prefer to go in that direction than in the Bradfor/Orton direction.

IMO the sooner we move McCoy to the bench the sooner we improve! Well, that is if Shurmer learns how to coach!

The problem may be that we could bring in Andrew Luck/Brett Favre/Dan Marino/John Elway/Tom Brady/Joe Montana/Otto Graham/Sammy Baugh/Johnny Unitas and it wouldn't matter if Shurmur is in control

Tour2ma

Bottom line for me... in today's NFL you do not consistently compete without a franchise QB. Is Colt a franchise QB? IMO, no...

I think Colt's potential is limited to the "he can manage a game" level. Unfortunately, I believe, the other team traits that compliment this style of QB are further away today than they were a year ago, i.e., a strong defense and a run game. We can go that route, but it will take a long time... and when you get there, what do you have? A one-year wonder, e.g. the Dilfer Ravens? Too hard to build and hold together a team to complement a QB... especially in a small market city like Cleveland.

With the possible exception of Luck, there's not an obvious franchise QB in the draft. No way he falls as low as we will draft... and no way I would do what it would take to trade up and get him. I'm just not that sure.

If Blackmon (WR) or Richardson (RB) were available where we pick, I'd draft him. Otherwise I would do is trade down to 20-something again, stock up on more picks and nab Tannehill out of A&M, a kid that has a chance of becoming the guy.

dj_illness

Tourma.

please stop this franchise QB business.

Mark Sanchez.

Alex Smith.

heck, even Matt Hasslebeck isn't what many would call a "franchise" QB.

Give me someone in the mold of Pennington, and we'd be worlds better.

Tour2ma

Sorry, but I just can't help myself...

There are only a handful of consensus franchise QB's in the NFL at any given time (Brady, Rodgers, P. Manning, Brees, Rothlesberger), but where those few are you will find consistent contenders. Neither Sanchez nor Smith are among the current crop, IMO, never thought they were coming out of college either. Both are at best "manage the game" QB's.

I agree with you on Hasselbeck... he's definitely not a franchise QB.

Pennington? He had a chance at one time, but injuries took care of that. As for his mold... Colt fits that, so you should be happy.

If anyone said they were easy to find, it wasn't me... but that doesn't mean you don't keep looking until you find one... and when you do you need to immediately start looking for your next one.

dj_illness

sure, sure.

but we need a serious compare/contrast of "franchise" QB's and the parts around them.

(including, perhaps most importantly, organizational and coaching/scheme structure)

Does one really exist without the other?

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@bringbackbrownie2 said:

You are comparing a 9 year veteran QB to another QB with 1.5 years experience. Which has the potential to improve? It's simple - the younger one. Young QBs aren't perfect. Colt hasn't been perfect but neither was Drew Brees in his 2nd year as a starting QB (3rd season in the league). Brees had worse stats in his 2nd year than McCoy has this year. look it up if you don't believe me. Brees had 11 TDs and 15 picks with a QB rating in the high 60s. Colt has thrown for 15 TDs and 11 picks with a 74 rating.

I'm not saying McCoy is for sure the long term answer at QB, but we need to get some WRs, RB depth, and fix the right side of our offensive line before we throw another QB under center. It's been hard enough to judge McCoy with the players he has to work. Why give some other QB the same inept offense to deal with?

I believe H and H will let McCoy start another year (which is the right choice imo) while fixing the rest of the offense (as well as the defense). We will most likely draft a QB in the later rounds (maybe one of our 4th rounders) and see what McCoy can do with an improved offense. Then in 2013, we will know for sure if QB is a priority. We still have so many holes on both sides of the ball to waste a pick on a QB real high in the draft.

Thank you. It's what I've been saying since last season. Colt is not THE guy, he's a placeholder until the offense gets built.

BrownIndian

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Thank you. It's what I've been saying since last season. Colt is not THE guy, he's a placeholder until the offense gets built.

That is true, but if there is a better QB available who can improve the offense, Is it better for the team to go after that QB ? (draft or FA)

Remember - There are 3 "catchers" atleast (WR's + TE's) and only 1 thrower (QB). And if the guy throwing is not doing a good job throwing then all good WR's can and will suffer.

BrownIndian

Cleveland Browns' Colt McCoy might be good QB somewhere, but not in AFC North Division, executive says: Terry Pluto's Talkin'

I talked to an AFC executive whose team plays the Browns in some seasons.

"What's their problem?" I asked.

He said: "They have put together a decent defense. I really like the kid from Pitt [Jabaal Sheard]. He can be a big-time player. [Phil] Taylor and [Ahtyba] Rubin are good tackles, but they desperately need another defensive end. Get a guy who is pretty good over there, and Sheard can really make an impact. [Joe] Haden, [T.J.] Ward, and [D'Qwell] Jackson are very good. Our coaches really love Jackson."

"So it's not defense?" I asked.

"They can always get better, especially at linebacker," he said. "But what division do the Browns play in?"

"The AFC North," I said.

"Who are the quarterbacks?" he asked.

"Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, and . . ."

"And your guy," he said. "Does Colt [McCoy] even come close to comparing with them? Here's the problem -- you play six games against those teams, often in bad weather. I think you need a quarterback who is physically big with a strong arm."

"So you don't like McCoy," I said.

"Not in that division," he said. "I'm not saying it's easy to find one. Think of all the quarterbacks that Baltimore went through before Flacco -- [Kyle] Boller, [Trent] Dilfer, [Tony] Banks, [steve] McNair, [Elvis] Grbac . . . I'm sure I'm forgetting some guys. Ben put Pittsburgh on the map for the Super Bowl. Dalton can play. Our coaches think Seneca [Wallace] is tougher to defend [than McCoy] because he's more mobile, but he's a backup. For years, the Browns have had a terrible offense and a quarterback problem. They usually go together."

"The Browns do have two first-round picks," I said.

"That can help them get a quarterback," he said. "But you have to be right. If they aren't sure [on a quarterback], then take two players who can really make an impact. Look at what [wide receiver A.J.] Green has done for the Bengals. When you play the Browns, you set your defense to stop [Peyton] Hillis. You can have a safety follow him, because no one in the passing game [quarterback or receivers] worries you."

"So if you were the Browns, you'd be looking for a quarterback," I said.

"In that division, they have no other choice," he said. "But don't force it. That is a team that needs impact players at a lot of positions."

Link: http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2011/12/cleveland_browns_colt_mccoy_mi.html

dj_illness

so it's a both and.

i like this perspective and summary.

we could use a QB. but DON'T (for the love of God) force it.

keep building.

(and fire Shumur.)

BrownIndian

@dj_illness said:

so it's a both and.

i like this perspective and summary.

we could use a QB. but DON'T (for the love of God) force it.

keep building.

(and fire Shumur.)

Yup. Keep on upgrading.

The Gipper

@brownindian said:

Cleveland Browns' Colt McCoy might be good QB somewhere, but not in AFC North Division, executive says: Terry Pluto's Talkin'

I talked to an AFC executive whose team plays the Browns in some seasons.

"What's their problem?" I asked.

He said: "They have put together a decent defense. I really like the kid from Pitt [Jabaal Sheard]. He can be a big-time player. [Phil] Taylor and [Ahtyba] Rubin are good tackles, but they desperately need another defensive end. Get a guy who is pretty good over there, and Sheard can really make an impact. [Joe] Haden, [T.J.] Ward, and [D'Qwell] Jackson are very good. Our coaches really love Jackson."

"So it's not defense?" I asked.

"They can always get better, especially at linebacker," he said. "But what division do the Browns play in?"

"The AFC North," I said.

"Who are the quarterbacks?" he asked.

"Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, and . . ."

"And your guy," he said. "Does Colt [McCoy] even come close to comparing with them? Here's the problem -- you play six games against those teams, often in bad weather. I think you need a quarterback who is physically big with a strong arm."

"So you don't like McCoy," I said.

"Not in that division," he said. "I'm not saying it's easy to find one. Think of all the quarterbacks that Baltimore went through before Flacco -- [Kyle] Boller, [Trent] Dilfer, [Tony] Banks, [steve] McNair, [Elvis] Grbac . . . I'm sure I'm forgetting some guys. Ben put Pittsburgh on the map for the Super Bowl. Dalton can play. Our coaches think Seneca [Wallace] is tougher to defend [than McCoy] because he's more mobile, but he's a backup. For years, the Browns have had a terrible offense and a quarterback problem. They usually go together."

"The Browns do have two first-round picks," I said.

"That can help them get a quarterback," he said. "But you have to be right. If they aren't sure [on a quarterback], then take two players who can really make an impact. Look at what [wide receiver A.J.] Green has done for the Bengals. When you play the Browns, you set your defense to stop [Peyton] Hillis. You can have a safety follow him, because no one in the passing game [quarterback or receivers] worries you."

"So if you were the Browns, you'd be looking for a quarterback," I said.

"In that division, they have no other choice," he said. "But don't force it. That is a team that needs impact players at a lot of positions."

Link: http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2011/12/cleveland_browns_colt_mccoy_mi.html

The way I read it is that he may not think a guy like RGIII is right for the Browns for the simple fact that he may not be tall enough. He is 6'2, 220. Yet, I am of the opinion that perhaps the Browns need someone to break the mold from those other guys. Instead of just a big pocket thrower like those other 3 go for more the athlete.....as long as he possesses other necessary traits, like arm strenght (RG has that), ability to read defenses (??) accuracy, mechanics etc. etc.

dj_illness

i feel like with our first round, we're going to be in a pickle between the two options:

QB improvement (RGIII) or overall team improvement (oline, WR, LB, etc)

Unless managment has already decided, I think whatever trade options present themselves (moving up or down) will ulitmately determine our course of action.

BrownsFan4Evr

I don't remember Brian Sipe being very big........but he had weapons.........just sayin.

calfoxwc

Wallace is more mobile than McCoy? baloney, unless it's that McCoy has been beaten up a whole lot more since he's been the guy.

The Browns don't have the luxury of drafting a qb. Even if you started him his rookie year - he'd get beaten up by rushes off the right side,

and still wouldn't find open receivers because Little would be double or triple covered, and he'd have no running game without Hillis.

I'll take McCoy over Flacculence any day, any time. Why? because just because Flacco has a solid oiine and solid rb's and solid te's and solid,

bigtime wr's... doesn't make him great. He isn't.

If McCoy had his offense all there, all the tools - McCoy is a smarter, quicker, more accurate qb than Flacco. I'm long since tired of the blaming of the qb

when Pashos should be a OG, when the Browns desperately need a blazing fast, get open quick wr to complement Little, MoMass is a long strider -

he doesn't make quick breaks, and doesn't have blazing speed. He all too often doesn't have the intensity to go after the ball - unless I'm just seeing him

having a lack of quick movement toward the ball because he isn't a quick stepper. I can see Richardson being in the same backfield with Hillis once in a while.

But the problem with the Browns' offense is not the qb's. Both Wallace and McCoy have the same problems, and any other qb will have the same problems.

LCDawgFan13

@brownindian said:

McCoy has a tendency to stare down at receivers and miss out on the open ones.

McCoy seems not be slow when it comes to making decisions.

McCoy's long throw are not accurate enough.

McCoy tends to hang on to the ball longer than he should.

While he can do all these things in the college and get away with it, The NFL will not be that forgiving - ESPCIALLY this division. The league has become more QB driven nowadays, so taking a QB with a strong arm and a smart mind is not a bad thing. And it is not like everyone wants to get rid of Colt from the NFL. He has skills that rings 'Excellent Backup' and that is not a bad thing.

I do agree that we need more weapons, We need more skill players on Offense and Defense. And that Colt is not the root cause of our suckiness. But if wehave an opportunity to improve on a position then why not do it ?

Because we've been "improving" on that position since 1999 without improving the rest of the offense. How many different QB's do we have to bring in before everyone realizes that changing QB's is not going to magically fix this team?! QB is not the problem people!!! We have had #1 overall QB's, veterans, 3rd round picks...None have been able to fix the problem, because the problem is the lack of talent that we have offensively around every QB we bring in!

The Gipper

@lcdawgfan13 said:

Because we've been "improving" on that position since 1999 without improving the rest of the offense. How many different QB's do we have to bring in before everyone realizes that changing QB's is not going to magically fix this team?! QB is not the problem people!!! We have had #1 overall QB's, veterans, 3rd round picks...None have been able to fix the problem, because the problem is the lack of talent that we have offensively around every QB we bring in!

How many times have I said it: Use the Steelers model when they got BR. What did they do? They built up the nastiest defense in the league, they built up a great running game with really good receivers.

Finally, ultimately, they brought in a QB as the final piece. In that QBs rookie season they went 15-1, but that rookie played only a minor part in that record. He did fine for a rookie, but he was by no means the difference.

If the Browns used their first 3 picks in the draft to take a linebacker, another DB, and a DE it would not break my heart. Seriously.

I know they need offensive playmakers....a #1 receiver and a scatback, but if they went for defense that is a strategy that wouldn't upset me. In a year or 2 the Browns could find their version of BR.

Carlos

@calfoxwc said:

Wallace is more mobile than McCoy? baloney, unless it's that McCoy has been beaten up a whole lot more since he's been the guy.

The Browns don't have the luxury of drafting a qb. Even if you started him his rookie year - he'd get beaten up by rushes off the right side,

and still wouldn't find open receivers because Little would be double or triple covered, and he'd have no running game without Hillis.

I'll take McCoy over Flacculence any day, any time. Why? because just because Flacco has a solid oiine and solid rb's and solid te's and solid,

bigtime wr's... doesn't make him great. He isn't.

If McCoy had his offense all there, all the tools - McCoy is a smarter, quicker, more accurate qb than Flacco. I'm long since tired of the blaming of the qb

when Pashos should be a OG, when the Browns desperately need a blazing fast, get open quick wr to complement Little, MoMass is a long strider -

he doesn't make quick breaks, and doesn't have blazing speed. He all too often doesn't have the intensity to go after the ball - unless I'm just seeing him

having a lack of quick movement toward the ball because he isn't a quick stepper. I can see Richardson being in the same backfield with Hillis once in a while.

But the problem with the Browns' offense is not the qb's. Both Wallace and McCoy have the same problems, and any other qb will have the same problems.

McCoy IS a more mobile QB than Wallace, although both have had to be mobile with the kind of time theyre getting after the snap.LOL.