If We Only Hadn't Traded Down Last Year
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Remember the fable the fox and the grapes? Browns fans are the fox and your draft is grapes. Atlanta scored a top flight reciever in Jones, and you guys whine about what they had to give up to get Jones. Who cares what they gave up, it's about what get from the draft. The Browns didn't have to give up anything to get Jones, they got consolation prizes instead. Atlanta made the play-offs, the Browns came no where near close. As long as you make the play-offs, you've got a chance to get to the Super Bowl.
All you talk about is who needs elite players and recievers don't touch the ball much...after all elite players don't make up a team, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you got some starters in late draft rounds, but that's because the alternatives were far worse. If your organization is run right, you don't need 3rd-7th rounders to start for you franchise (except on special teams). Ultimately, you need about 5 elite players to be a play-off contender, typically they include: QB, WR, RB, LB/DL and CB/S.
In today's NFL, teams (especially winning organizations) must hit a home-run with their first round picks. If your first rounder isn't an elite type player at his position, who can start his rookie season and make a big impact, you've probably drafted badly or have a team chocked full of talented players. Your second round picks must also be big time pick-ups. The second round picks don't need to be "elite" but they need to be major contributors to the organization 1-2 years down the road. The remainder of the draft is for developmental/experimental players, ones who you are "gambling" on being good. You can afford to have misses with the later round picks.
If you select a wide-out with your #1 draft pick (slot #4) in 2012, then has the Atlanta trade really been good for you? Will that WO be as good a Jones (appears to be after 1 season)?
Phil Taylor is a decent pick-up for you. He would've been a steal had you nabbed him the second round. He's got to get a whole lot better for him to be justification over Jones, or you've got to nail your #22 pick this year (while not screwing up your #4 pick with a bust WR).
Endymion said:
Remember the fable the fox and the grapes? Browns fans are the fox and your draft is grapes. Atlanta scored a top flight reciever in Jones, and you guys whine about what they had to give up to get Jones. Who cares what they gave up, it's about what get from the draft. The Browns didn't have to give up anything to get Jones, they got consolation prizes instead. Atlanta made the play-offs, the Browns came no where near close. As long as you make the play-offs, you've got a chance to get to the Super Bowl.
All you talk about is who needs elite players and recievers don't touch the ball much...after all elite players don't make up a team, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you got some starters in late draft rounds, but that's because the alternatives were far worse. If your organization is run right, you don't need 3rd-7th rounders to start for you franchise (except on special teams). Ultimately, you need about 5 elite players to be a play-off contender, typically they include: QB, WR, RB, LB/DL and CB/S.
In today's NFL, teams (especially winning organizations) must hit a home-run with their first round picks. If your first rounder isn't an elite type player at his position, who can start his rookie season and make a big impact, you've probably drafted badly or have a team chocked full of talented players. Your second round picks must also be big time pick-ups. The second round picks don't need to be "elite" but they need to be major contributors to the organization 1-2 years down the road. The remainder of the draft is for developmental/experimental players, ones who you are "gambling" on being good. You can afford to have misses with the later round picks.
If you select a wide-out with your #1 draft pick (slot #4) in 2012, then has the Atlanta trade really been good for you? Will that WO be as good a Jones (appears to be after 1 season)?
Phil Taylor is a decent pick-up for you. He would've been a steal had you nabbed him the second round. He's got to get a whole lot better for him to be justification over Jones, or you've got to nail your #22 pick this year (while not screwing up your #4 pick with a bust WR).
Regarding the red part, sure assuming we get Blackmon, and he turns out as good as Jones- the Browns just delayed selecting the stud WR by a year. AND we can use Atlanta's 21st pick on either a DE to play opposite Sheard, or a linebacker to replace the increasingly fragile Fujita.
We didn't whine about it either-(well some bozos on this board did) we just pointed out- Atlanta gave up FAR too much to get Jones. Jones was going to be the Crown Jewel that was going to put the Falcons in the Super Bowl. EPIC FAIL. And you're undervaluing Taylor, the guy is drawing double teams on a routine basis. Little would have had similar stats to Jones if he had learned to hang onto the ball earlier in the year.
So go look in a mirror Steeler guy and tell me where Ward and Wallace were drafted- third round. Atlanta gave up a truckload to try and get over the top, and it's seriously going to bite them in the upcoming season.
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As discussed the Browns 2011 draft has/had a great impact on WRs for your team. You could've been set with an elite player at that position, and/or you may draft an elite player at that position this year. However, by not selecting Jones in 2011, the Browns have for the most part ignored the QB position.
Many of you on this board (before the season) said Colt reminded you of a young Joe Montana. Now most of you think he needs jettisoned. RG3 what the majority of Browns fans seem to be hoping for with the #4 pick. St. Louis or Minnesota may also be gunning for him. You may have to give up your 2nd first round pick (from Atlanta) to move up and secure him.
Maybe Colt is good enough to get your team to the play-offs, however, he's not been surrounded with any weapons of any repute, so it's kinda hard to say if he sucks as bad as Ryan Leaf or not. Had you selected Jones, you'd have known more about Colt and subsequently, your top pick this year could've address another position of need (other than QB or WR).
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One or even two superstud players cannot consistently get it done alone regardless of position, there has to be a smart and working system with decent players along with a matching chemistry in place that allows a superstud to be a stud and without that system and core of support even a superstud may look quite average at best..
Tom heckert has done one helluva job setting the club up for a potentially great draft that may pretty much make or break the club over the next few years, i will trust heckerts decisions on draft day and even in FA, i am by far more concerned with the "shurmur factor" as all of the talent in the world cant help if you have an inferior coaching philosophy and system that fails to utilize player strengths and abilities along with poor decision making and bad playcalling..
With heckert i expect if his guy is not there at #4 or if he gets an offer he cant refuse he will trade down and take players not many fans really considered, it will likely piss fans off but should make the team better in the end depending on the shurmur factor..
Well said. The "Shurmur Factor" is, indeed, I believe, the major concern for this team going forward. I mean, he could be a Chuck Noll/Bill Walsh stoic type HC who goes 1-13 his first year to multiple championships....or he could just alway be a 4-12 quality HC. We don't know yet.
Well said. The "Shurmur Factor" is, indeed, I believe, the major concern for this team going forward. I mean, he could be a Chuck Noll/Bill Walsh stoic type HC who goes 1-13 his first year to multiple championships....or he could just alway be a 4-12 quality HC. We don't know yet.
Interesting take. Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 in his first year too.
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Guys, you people are so freaking crazy. Falcons made the playoffs... did the browns? This is Julio's first year in the league. He could be an all pro MVP next year with 1400yds and 25 TDs. How does anyone know???
Falcons will be in the playoffs next year, while Browns are picking from the barrel at 4-12.
This thread is useless.
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just cause its over your head doesn't make it useless. by the same token, what if jones catches less than 30 balls next year?
point is, he was supposed to elevated them to the next step. they got worse in almost every statistical category. its not that he wasnt worth the pick....just not the 4 additional ones it took to get him. furthermore, it lends to the impact he would have had if he came here. we'd still be 4-12, and we'd be fending off idiots like you screaming he was a bust.
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Remember the fable the fox and the grapes? Browns fans are the fox and your draft is grapes. Atlanta scored a top flight reciever in Jones, and you guys whine about what they had to give up to get Jones. Who cares what they gave up, it's about what get from the draft. The Browns didn't have to give up anything to get Jones, they got consolation prizes instead. Atlanta made the play-offs, the Browns came no where near close. As long as you make the play-offs, you've got a chance to get to the Super Bowl.
All you talk about is who needs elite players and recievers don't touch the ball much...after all elite players don't make up a team, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you got some starters in late draft rounds, but that's because the alternatives were far worse. If your organization is run right, you don't need 3rd-7th rounders to start for you franchise (except on special teams). Ultimately, you need about 5 elite players to be a play-off contender, typically they include: QB, WR, RB, LB/DL and CB/S.
In today's NFL, teams (especially winning organizations) must hit a home-run with their first round picks. If your first rounder isn't an elite type player at his position, who can start his rookie season and make a big impact, you've probably drafted badly or have a team chocked full of talented players. Your second round picks must also be big time pick-ups. The second round picks don't need to be "elite" but they need to be major contributors to the organization 1-2 years down the road. The remainder of the draft is for developmental/experimental players, ones who you are "gambling" on being good. You can afford to have misses with the later round picks.
If you select a wide-out with your #1 draft pick (slot #4) in 2012, then has the Atlanta trade really been good for you? Will that WO be as good a Jones (appears to be after 1 season)?
Phil Taylor is a decent pick-up for you. He would've been a steal had you nabbed him the second round. He's got to get a whole lot better for him to be justification over Jones, or you've got to nail your #22 pick this year (while not screwing up your #4 pick with a bust WR).
Endymion said:
Remember the fable the fox and the grapes? Browns fans are the fox and your draft is grapes. Atlanta scored a top flight reciever in Jones, and you guys whine about what they had to give up to get Jones. Who cares what they gave up, it's about what get from the draft. The Browns didn't have to give up anything to get Jones, they got consolation prizes instead. Atlanta made the play-offs, the Browns came no where near close. As long as you make the play-offs, you've got a chance to get to the Super Bowl.
This Browns team is much closer to making the playoffs with Phil Taylor, Greg Little and Owen Marcic than they would have been with just Julio Jones.
All you talk about is who needs elite players and recievers don't touch the ball much...after all elite players don't make up a team, blah, blah, blah.
You make the assumption that we concede that Julio Jones is an elite player. I by no means make that assumption. In fact, right here, right now, I say that Phil Taylor will likely be a better player at his position than JJ is at his....discounting Little and Marecic and the two picks we get this year.
Yeah, you got some starters in late draft rounds, but that's because the alternatives were far worse. If your organization is run right, you don't need 3rd-7th rounders to start for you franchise (except on special teams). Ultimately, you need about 5 elite players to be a play-off contender, typically they include: QB, WR, RB, LB/DL and CB/S.
Tell that to the Eagles. They have all those, supposedly. They are sitting at home as well.
The Browns have the CB and the RB, maybe. Yes, they need the WR and the LB and the QB. I think they get two of those in the first round this year, and possibly the third in the second round....if they draft right and if the talent blossoms.
In today's NFL, teams (especially winning organizations) must hit a home-run with their first round picks. If your first rounder isn't an elite type player at his position, who can start his rookie season and make a big impact, you've probably drafted badly or have a team chocked full of talented players.
Phil Taylor, by all accounts, will quite possibly be an impact player at DT.
Your second round picks must also be big time pick-ups. The second round picks don't need to be "elite" but they need to be major contributors to the organization 1-2 years down the road.
The Browns got 2 instant starters in Sheard and Little. At least, Little started the last half of the season.
The remainder of the draft is for developmental/experimental players, ones who you are "gambling" on being good. You can afford to have misses with the later round picks.
So far, this past draft looks good for that. We have had our starting LG for all games, Pinkston produce. Skrine, Hagg have contributed in backup and special teams. Jordan Cameron (or is it Cameron Jordan) is that "developmental player" so far. Four starters, two of which were a direct result of the Jones trade.
If you select a wide-out with your #1 draft pick (slot #4) in 2012, then has the Atlanta trade really been good for you? Will that WO be as good a Jones (appears to be after 1 season)?
If it is Blackmon, most think he will be every bit as good if not better. The key will not be the #4 pick, but the #22 pick, which is ATLs pick.
Phil Taylor is a decent pick-up for you. He would've been a steal had you nabbed him the second round. He's got to get a whole lot better for him to be justification over Jones, or you've got to nail your #22 pick this year (while not screwing up your #4 pick with a bust WR).
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As discussed the Browns 2011 draft has/had a great impact on WRs for your team. You could've been set with an elite player at that position, and/or you may draft an elite player at that position this year. However, by not selecting Jones in 2011, the Browns have for the most part ignored the QB position.
Many of you on this board (before the season) said Colt reminded you of a young Joe Montana. Now most of you think he needs jettisoned. RG3 what the majority of Browns fans seem to be hoping for with the #4 pick. St. Louis or Minnesota may also be gunning for him. You may have to give up your 2nd first round pick (from Atlanta) to move up and secure him.
Maybe Colt is good enough to get your team to the play-offs, however, he's not been surrounded with any weapons of any repute, so it's kinda hard to say if he sucks as bad as Ryan Leaf or not. Had you selected Jones, you'd have known more about Colt and subsequently, your top pick this year could've address another position of need (other than QB or WR).
Endymion said:
As discussed the Browns 2011 draft has/had a great impact on WRs for your team. You could've been set with an elite player at that position, and/or you may draft an elite player at that position this year. However, by not selecting Jones in 2011, the Browns have for the most part ignored the QB position.
Again, I don't buy that Jones is any more elite than Greg Little is. He is not nearly as good as AJ Green whom the Browns wanted And I don't see how the Jones trade affected the Browns QB position...at all.
Many of you on this board (before the season) said Colt reminded you of a young Joe Montana. Now most of you think he needs jettisoned. RG3 what the majority of Browns fans seem to be hoping for with the #4 pick. St. Louis or Minnesota may also be gunning for him. You may have to give up your 2nd first round pick (from Atlanta) to move up and secure him.
I still think it is possible that McCoy could be a young Joe Montana. I don't think there is any guarantee that RGIII will be better than McCoy, at all. I might like to have him however as a change of pace QB from all the others in the AFCN. And I don't see why St. or Minn. would want him. They have their QBs. Another team, like Wash or Miami may want to trade up with one of those teams to get him. That is certainly a possibility.
Maybe Colt is good enough to get your team to the play-offs, however, he's not been surrounded with any weapons of any repute, so it's kinda hard to say if he sucks as bad as Ryan Leaf or not. Had you selected Jones, you'd have known more about Colt and subsequently, your top pick this year could've address another position of need (other than QB or WR).
I don't think having Jones on this team would have mattered one way or another in evaluating Colt MCCoy.
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Guys, you people are so freaking crazy. Falcons made the playoffs... did the browns? This is Julio's first year in the league. He could be an all pro MVP next year with 1400yds and 25 TDs. How does anyone know???
Falcons will be in the playoffs next year, while Browns are picking from the barrel at 4-12.
This thread is useless.
Chickenwang said:
Guys, you people are so freaking crazy. Falcons made the playoffs... did the browns? This is Julio's first year in the league. He could be an all pro MVP next year with 1400yds and 25 TDs. How does anyone know???
Falcons will be in the playoffs next year, while Browns are picking from the barrel at 4-12.
This thread is useless.
The Falcons were 13-3 with a 1st round bye without Julio Jones last year. They give up 5 picks to grab Julio Jones and go 10-6 while losing their 1st playoff game once again. This thread wasn't created to say that the Browns are better than the Falcons - but that the Falcons failed miserably on this trade.
If you go 13-3 one year and trade the farm for 1 top pick the next, you are essentially saying that with that one player it is Super Bowl or bust. Atlanta still hasn't won a playoff game under Matt Ryan (0-3) and now don't have a 1st round pick to help fix all their problems..
Julio Jones could have a career year next year but Atlanta won't have enough draft picks to fix their defense. Plus Matt Ryan hasn't proven that he can do much of anything come playoff time..
The Browns have extra picks this year to trade up, trade down, or just use them all to get that much closer to competing. If Atlanta wasn't any better with Jones this past year there is no way in hell he would have benefited more this year in Cleveland.
So does that help clear things up a bit?
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why is this an article?
The Falcons made it to the playoffs. They're not failures. Recievers had an off day because Ryan had too much pressure in his face.
But....they made the playoffs....
Why the hell are we saying the Browns are better off?
WRs arent just shiny hood ornaments. you gotta be freakin kiddin me. Look what not having WRs has done for the Browns.
They may not be AS important as other positons, but they are still very important to stretch the field, score in a hurry, move the ball quickly, keeping a D honest for the run game, converting long 2-3rd downs.
Come on now. Its a passing league.
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Chickenwang said:
Guys, you people are so freaking crazy. Falcons made the playoffs... did the browns? This is Julio's first year in the league. He could be an all pro MVP next year with 1400yds and 25 TDs. How does anyone know???
Falcons will be in the playoffs next year, while Browns are picking from the barrel at 4-12.
This thread is useless.
The Falcons were 13-3 with a 1st round bye without Julio Jones last year. They give up 5 picks to grab Julio Jones and go 10-6 while losing their 1st playoff game once again. This thread wasn't created to say that the Browns are better than the Falcons - but that the Falcons failed miserably on this trade.
If you go 13-3 one year and trade the farm for 1 top pick the next, you are essentially saying that with that one player it is Super Bowl or bust. Atlanta still hasn't won a playoff game under Matt Ryan (0-3) and now don't have a 1st round pick to help fix all their problems..
Julio Jones could have a career year next year but Atlanta won't have enough draft picks to fix their defense. Plus Matt Ryan hasn't proven that he can do much of anything come playoff time..
The Browns have extra picks this year to trade up, trade down, or just use them all to get that much closer to competing. If Atlanta wasn't any better with Jones this past year there is no way in hell he would have benefited more this year in Cleveland.
So does that help clear things up a bit?
The Falcons were 13-3 with a 1st round bye without Julio Jones last year. They give up 5 picks to grab Julio Jones and go 10-6 while losing their 1st playoff game once again. This thread wasn't created to say that the Browns are better than the Falcons - but that the Falcons failed miserably on this trade.
If you go 13-3 one year and trade the farm for 1 top pick the next, you are essentially saying that with that one player it is Super Bowl or bust. Atlanta still hasn't won a playoff game under Matt Ryan (0-3) and now don't have a 1st round pick to help fix all their problems..
Julio Jones could have a career year next year but Atlanta won't have enough draft picks to fix their defense. Plus Matt Ryan hasn't proven that he can do much of anything come playoff time..
The Browns have extra picks this year to trade up, trade down, or just use them all to get that much closer to competing. If Atlanta wasn't any better with Jones this past year there is no way in hell he would have benefited more this year in Cleveland.
So does that help clear things up a bit?
I'd rather be in the playoffs and lose then go 4-12.
Even for 3 years in a row...
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The Falcons were 13-3 with a 1st round bye without Julio Jones last year. They give up 5 picks to grab Julio Jones and go 10-6 while losing their 1st playoff game once again. This thread wasn't created to say that the Browns are better than the Falcons - but that the Falcons failed miserably on this trade.
If you go 13-3 one year and trade the farm for 1 top pick the next, you are essentially saying that with that one player it is Super Bowl or bust. Atlanta still hasn't won a playoff game under Matt Ryan (0-3) and now don't have a 1st round pick to help fix all their problems..
Julio Jones could have a career year next year but Atlanta won't have enough draft picks to fix their defense. Plus Matt Ryan hasn't proven that he can do much of anything come playoff time..
The Browns have extra picks this year to trade up, trade down, or just use them all to get that much closer to competing. If Atlanta wasn't any better with Jones this past year there is no way in hell he would have benefited more this year in Cleveland.
So does that help clear things up a bit?
I'd rather be in the playoffs and lose then go 4-12.
Even for 3 years in a row...
I'd rather be in the playoffs and lose then go 4-12.
Even for 3 years in a row...
Wow you are dense. I'll try again. The falcons were a playoff team BEFORE THIS TRADE! The fact is the trade didn't make them any better - it made them WORSE! We got more draft picks to fill holes everywhere on our roster. The end.
No one is saying that the Browns are better than the falcons - just that the trade did not help out the falcons in any way. Thank god you aren't a GM.
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Endymion said:
In 2010 the Browns had a 5-11 record and in 2011 you dropped to 4-12. Trading your draft pick did not improve your team in 2011 (same as with the Falcons).
Based upon rookie 1st rounder performance, Phil Taylor (DT) was rated around #166, with 59 tackles, 1 forced fumble, and 4 sacks. (Granted, defensive players aren't given positional ratings like offensive players). Phil Taylor appears to be a decent pick-up, but he's not demonstrated that he's an elite defensive player.
Julio Jones, was ranked #25 in recievers for 2011, with 54 receptions for 959 yards and 8 TDs. Those are some impressive stats for a rookie. You may end up taking a WO with your #1 pick this year. Will he be as good as Julio was?
The one factor you have not considered is that the Falcons may have had an even worse record this year w/out Julio Jones.
In summary, you haven't proved trading down was a benefit to your organization and really you haven't proven that's it hurt Altanta particularly badly. Points wise on the draft grading scale, you really haven't traded the equivalent value for your #6 pick to Atlanta, as they didn't completely fall apart this year. Lastly, if another team isn't willing to gamble you couldn't have gotten extra picks, so bashing Atlanta for trading with you is akin to biting the hand that feeds.
You are by no means going far enough with this analysis. The Falcons got:
Julio Jones
The Browns got:
Phil Taylor....as someone said, he should make all rookie team on D...and very well may turn out to be an elite player at his position.
Greg Little....Who had practically as productive a year as Jones.
Owen Marecic...a contributor.....hopefully improving
all three of the above were starters, also the Browns get:
Atlanta's first round pick in 2012, which we know will be #22 overall (and who the Browns, yes, will expect to become an immediate starter)
Atlanta's fourth round pick in 2012. Again, hopefully a contributor.
You are by no means going far enough with this analysis. The Falcons got:
Julio Jones
The Browns got:
Phil Taylor....as someone said, he should make all rookie team on D...and very well may turn out to be an elite player at his position.
Greg Little....Who had practically as productive a year as Jones.
Owen Marecic...a contributor.....hopefully improving
all three of the above were starters, also the Browns get:
Atlanta's first round pick in 2012, which we know will be #22 overall (and who the Browns, yes, will expect to become an immediate starter)
Atlanta's fourth round pick in 2012. Again, hopefully a contributor.
I absolutely loved Greg Little before we drafted him. And I am still a huge fan despite a case of the dropsies this year. I thought he was one of the top 3 WRs coming out in last years draft. I even went back and fourth with him and Jones being the second best behind Green was the runaway at the position. I still think he could be better then Jones.
With all that being said though ... In what world did Little have practically as productive of a year??
Jones had 250 more yards in 3 less games. Plus at the Pace Jones put up when he wasn't injured he would have ended with close to 500 more yards.
8TDs to 2TDs.
And 5 100 yard games to 1.
Jones also averaged 16.8 yards per reception compared to Littles 11.6.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
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I'd rather be in the playoffs and lose then go 4-12.
Even for 3 years in a row...
Wow you are dense. I'll try again. The falcons were a playoff team BEFORE THIS TRADE! The fact is the trade didn't make them any better - it made them WORSE! We got more draft picks to fill holes everywhere on our roster. The end.
No one is saying that the Browns are better than the falcons - just that the trade did not help out the falcons in any way. Thank god you aren't a GM.
Wow you are dense. I'll try again. The falcons were a playoff team BEFORE THIS TRADE! The fact is the trade didn't make them any better - it made them WORSE! We got more draft picks to fill holes everywhere on our roster. The end.
No one is saying that the Browns are better than the falcons - just that the trade did not help out the falcons in any way. Thank god you aren't a GM.
I never said the browns were better.
Just silly to use a receiving corp that gets to the playoffs as a reason Wrs are just shiny ornaments.
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As discussed the Browns 2011 draft has/had a great impact on WRs for your team. You could've been set with an elite player at that position, and/or you may draft an elite player at that position this year. However, by not selecting Jones in 2011, the Browns have for the most part ignored the QB position.
Many of you on this board (before the season) said Colt reminded you of a young Joe Montana. Now most of you think he needs jettisoned. RG3 what the majority of Browns fans seem to be hoping for with the #4 pick. St. Louis or Minnesota may also be gunning for him. You may have to give up your 2nd first round pick (from Atlanta) to move up and secure him.
Maybe Colt is good enough to get your team to the play-offs, however, he's not been surrounded with any weapons of any repute, so it's kinda hard to say if he sucks as bad as Ryan Leaf or not. Had you selected Jones, you'd have known more about Colt and subsequently, your top pick this year could've address another position of need (other than QB or WR).
Endymion said:
As discussed the Browns 2011 draft has/had a great impact on WRs for your team. You could've been set with an elite player at that position, and/or you may draft an elite player at that position this year. However, by not selecting Jones in 2011, the Browns have for the most part ignored the QB position.
Many of you on this board (before the season) said Colt reminded you of a young Joe Montana. Now most of you think he needs jettisoned. RG3 what the majority of Browns fans seem to be hoping for with the #4 pick. St. Louis or Minnesota may also be gunning for him. You may have to give up your 2nd first round pick (from Atlanta) to move up and secure him.
Maybe Colt is good enough to get your team to the play-offs, however, he's not been surrounded with any weapons of any repute, so it's kinda hard to say if he sucks as bad as Ryan Leaf or not. Had you selected Jones, you'd have known more about Colt and subsequently, your top pick this year could've address another position of need (other than QB or WR).
Fair enough. Yes, we COULD have potentially landed a great WR (don't forget there were questions about Jones' hands which have proven to be correct), but at the time the Browns had more holes in the team than swiss cheese. And we still do- even with the extra picks the Browns are still a DE, RG, RT, CB, a couple LBs, and S away from being a serious contender, not to mention a WR. Heckert judged (rightly) at the time there were higher value targets than a WR. Like I mentioned- you can find your go-to guy way lower than 4th overall. So Mr. Steeler, would you trade Wallace (third round pick) for Jones right now, even up? And let's not forget the Saint's Colston 7th rounder, or the Giant's Cruz UFA.
Regarding Colt- there's certainly been premature gushing in this forum no doubt. However, Mike Holmgren has forgotten more about football than anyone on this forum can claim to know. Mike has seen the best- and he's said he's seen enough of Colt to make a decision. And if Mickey deems Colt lacking, he has more ammunition than anyone to move up to the Rams slot to take RG III, assuming he thinks he's the real deal. But that's also assuming the Rams new HC Jeff Fisher doesn't envision Griffin as the second coming of Steve McNair and is willing to dump Bradford. Tom Heckert has been astute in his drafting so far, and he's NOT going to sell the farm to move up to #2 if the Rams ask something stupid for the pick. Hello, Mr. Snyder, that's two firsts and two seconds? DEAL!!!!
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100% wrong, Ghoolie. The Jones pick is universally determined to be a DISASTER for the Falcons, because they gave up too much.
They had then (and still have) too many holes to justify jumping up for a shiny hood ornament, and that's why they are at home after the divisional round -- again. They may be a playoff team, but they're currently a playoff team that is built to lose.
The Falcons have zero chance to advance beyond the divisional round as currently constructed. This trade set them back years, and they will need serious luck to make any improvements.
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The Falcons were in the playoffs in 08. Lost first playoff game.
Same thing happened in 2010. and 2011.
Meanwhile, the Browns have dramatically built up their defense.
Not much has changed with the Falcons.
They could have really set themselves up with the picks they traded away.
It's a team game.
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I'd rather be in the playoffs and lose then go 4-12.
Even for 3 years in a row...
Wow you are dense. I'll try again. The falcons were a playoff team BEFORE THIS TRADE! The fact is the trade didn't make them any better - it made them WORSE! We got more draft picks to fill holes everywhere on our roster. The end.
No one is saying that the Browns are better than the falcons - just that the trade did not help out the falcons in any way. Thank god you aren't a GM.
The falcons were a playoff team BEFORE THIS TRADE! The fact is the trade didn't make them any better - it made them WORSE! We got more draft picks to fill holes everywhere on our roster.
Worse? C'mon man... other than that bit...
Yup... completely different needs. The Falcons believed they were drafting the final pieces of their Super Bowl puzzle. So a "step in and play at a high level", impact player made sense in their case. Did they pay too high of a price? Maybe... but I ain't complaining...
By contrast the Browns are still assembling the border of their puzzle. It's why a project like Little made sense for us. I think Little has a chance of developing into a Andre' Johnson style, beast of a WR
Trading down was a great move in 2011 and it'll be a great move again in 2012... if Luck and Blackmon are off the board.
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You are by no means going far enough with this analysis. The Falcons got:
Julio Jones
The Browns got:
Phil Taylor....as someone said, he should make all rookie team on D...and very well may turn out to be an elite player at his position.
Greg Little....Who had practically as productive a year as Jones.
Owen Marecic...a contributor.....hopefully improving
all three of the above were starters, also the Browns get:
Atlanta's first round pick in 2012, which we know will be #22 overall (and who the Browns, yes, will expect to become an immediate starter)
Atlanta's fourth round pick in 2012. Again, hopefully a contributor.
I absolutely loved Greg Little before we drafted him. And I am still a huge fan despite a case of the dropsies this year. I thought he was one of the top 3 WRs coming out in last years draft. I even went back and fourth with him and Jones being the second best behind Green was the runaway at the position. I still think he could be better then Jones.
With all that being said though ... In what world did Little have practically as productive of a year??
Jones had 250 more yards in 3 less games. Plus at the Pace Jones put up when he wasn't injured he would have ended with close to 500 more yards.
8TDs to 2TDs.
And 5 100 yard games to 1.
Jones also averaged 16.8 yards per reception compared to Littles 11.6.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
when was jones drafted again? yeah...and when did we get little again? uh huh....ok then....oh, you say we got little with one of the many picks that jones cost?
bbb2 had it correct....jones may be, should be better than little. the point was the cost of jones vs. the impact on the team, which i wanted to illustrate since so many of the madden football geniuses around here think all we need is to draft a WR and QB to rise to contention. everyone is willing to trade all these picks to get luck or blackmon, yet choose to ignore just how badly the falcons are fucked the next 2-3 years because of this trade. they're mired in improving without 4 extra draft picks to help their OL and defense.
this thread isn't about individual stats....or comparing little to jones...or even saying jones is a bad player. who gives a fuck....atlanta tried a blockbuster move and it failed. bottom line. how quickly we seem to forget the 08 draft.
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You are by no means going far enough with this analysis. The Falcons got:
Julio Jones
The Browns got:
Phil Taylor....as someone said, he should make all rookie team on D...and very well may turn out to be an elite player at his position.
Greg Little....Who had practically as productive a year as Jones.
Owen Marecic...a contributor.....hopefully improving
all three of the above were starters, also the Browns get:
Atlanta's first round pick in 2012, which we know will be #22 overall (and who the Browns, yes, will expect to become an immediate starter)
Atlanta's fourth round pick in 2012. Again, hopefully a contributor.
I absolutely loved Greg Little before we drafted him. And I am still a huge fan despite a case of the dropsies this year. I thought he was one of the top 3 WRs coming out in last years draft. I even went back and fourth with him and Jones being the second best behind Green was the runaway at the position. I still think he could be better then Jones.
With all that being said though ... In what world did Little have practically as productive of a year??
Jones had 250 more yards in 3 less games. Plus at the Pace Jones put up when he wasn't injured he would have ended with close to 500 more yards.
8TDs to 2TDs.
And 5 100 yard games to 1.
Jones also averaged 16.8 yards per reception compared to Littles 11.6.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
I absolutely loved Greg Little before we drafted him. And I am still a huge fan despite a case of the dropsies this year. I thought he was one of the top 3 WRs coming out in last years draft. I even went back and fourth with him and Jones being the second best behind Green was the runaway at the position. I still think he could be better then Jones.
With all that being said though ... In what world did Little have practically as productive of a year??
Jones had 250 more yards in 3 less games. Plus at the Pace Jones put up when he wasn't injured he would have ended with close to 500 more yards.
8TDs to 2TDs.
And 5 100 yard games to 1.
Jones also averaged 16.8 yards per reception compared to Littles 11.6.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
Up to like the last game or two of the season, it was not all that much difference between Little and Jones. I think Jones had 4-5 of his TD passes in the last two games....plus that is when he widened the gap in yards.
And who did the Falcons play in their last two games....I bet it was not teams with defenses the caliber of the Baltimore Ravens and Pittsburgh Steelers. No. It was the Saints and the Buccaneers.
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You are by no means going far enough with this analysis. The Falcons got:
Julio Jones
The Browns got:
Phil Taylor....as someone said, he should make all rookie team on D...and very well may turn out to be an elite player at his position.
Greg Little....Who had practically as productive a year as Jones.
Owen Marecic...a contributor.....hopefully improving
all three of the above were starters, also the Browns get:
Atlanta's first round pick in 2012, which we know will be #22 overall (and who the Browns, yes, will expect to become an immediate starter)
Atlanta's fourth round pick in 2012. Again, hopefully a contributor.
I absolutely loved Greg Little before we drafted him. And I am still a huge fan despite a case of the dropsies this year. I thought he was one of the top 3 WRs coming out in last years draft. I even went back and fourth with him and Jones being the second best behind Green was the runaway at the position. I still think he could be better then Jones.
With all that being said though ... In what world did Little have practically as productive of a year??
Jones had 250 more yards in 3 less games. Plus at the Pace Jones put up when he wasn't injured he would have ended with close to 500 more yards.
8TDs to 2TDs.
And 5 100 yard games to 1.
Jones also averaged 16.8 yards per reception compared to Littles 11.6.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
I absolutely loved Greg Little before we drafted him. And I am still a huge fan despite a case of the dropsies this year. I thought he was one of the top 3 WRs coming out in last years draft. I even went back and fourth with him and Jones being the second best behind Green was the runaway at the position. I still think he could be better then Jones.
With all that being said though ... In what world did Little have practically as productive of a year??
Jones had 250 more yards in 3 less games. Plus at the Pace Jones put up when he wasn't injured he would have ended with close to 500 more yards.
8TDs to 2TDs.
And 5 100 yard games to 1.
Jones also averaged 16.8 yards per reception compared to Littles 11.6.
I am not crowning Jones the better WR yet because it generally takes a couple of years to see what you really have in a WR, but the numbers definitly scream in Jones favor.
Up to like the last game or two of the season, it was not all that much difference between Little and Jones. I think Jones had 4-5 of his TD passes in the last two games....plus that is when he widened the gap in yards.
And who did the Falcons play in their last two games....I bet it was not teams with defenses the caliber of the Baltimore Ravens and Pittsburgh Steelers. No. It was the Saints and the Buccaneers.
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