Hire Mangini straightaway ? Enough waiting for Piloi ?
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Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.
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Hire Mangini?
Are you brownies really serious about that? What has Mangini done? What about the Jets performance under his reign has shown you he could make your franchise a winner? Did I read that right about Mangini getting fired because Farve was not his guy? Seriously, without Farve I don't think the guy ever coached more than 4 wins in a season.
I'm glad you are trying to help dismantle the New England machine, but you got burned with RAC, what makes you think Pioli/Mangini will be your saviors?
While I'm happy to hear Cowher turned you down (after buying a house and all in cleveland as so many Cleveland realitors claimed), but undoubtedly Cowher would've made you competetive. Marty Schottenhiemer will make you competetive, and though I hate to admit it he's your absolute best option that I know of. While I doubt Parcel's is willing to coach, if you could get him (even for only 2-4 years) he will make you competetive. Before you have delusions of Super Bowl granduer, you must first be competetive. So I'd hire a coach to get your franchise to that level. If that coach does not appear capable of reaching the next step then you fire that coach and get another who can. Parcels/Schottenhiemer for 2-4 years is a good deal.
I strongly suggest you avoid Shannahan. That guy is burnt out. He needs a break. If you take him you will regret it. He will be ready to coach again in a few years.
I'm all for bringing back Butch Davis btw. His track record against my team is black and gold in my book. Then again don't listen to me, I'm your enemy.
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Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.
Masters said:
Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.There is more to that equation. The fact was it was fine UNTIL they fired Collins. Then there was no DIRECT link to RAC. ONLY Lerner could fire EITHER RAC or PS. So there was no in-line responsibility.
Hiring a coach first is NOT necessarily a bad thing...especially IF the GM you are thinking about hasn't totally sold you on his ideas and is asking for the moon.
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Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.
Masters said:
Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.I totally agree. The GM should be extremely involved in the hiring of any HC. None of us want that same crap to happen again. I don't want to wast 4 more years just because the HC and GM aren't on the same page.
We need to give Pioli a little more time to decide. Then let him come in and hire who he feels best fits this team. He's done a great job in NE and I think he can do even better here without Bill looking over his shoulder. If Pioli wants to bring in Ferentz...McDaniels...Mangini...Whoever, then I trust him. If Pioli does not come here, then she Browns are in a very bad place.
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Masters said:
Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.There is more to that equation. The fact was it was fine UNTIL they fired Collins. Then there was no DIRECT link to RAC. ONLY Lerner could fire EITHER RAC or PS. So there was no in-line responsibility.
Hiring a coach first is NOT necessarily a bad thing...especially IF the GM you are thinking about hasn't totally sold you on his ideas and is asking for the moon.
There is more to that equation. The fact was it was fine UNTIL they fired Collins. Then there was no DIRECT link to RAC. ONLY Lerner could fire EITHER RAC or PS. So there was no in-line responsibility.
Hiring a coach first is NOT necessarily a bad thing...especially IF the GM you are thinking about hasn't totally sold you on his ideas and is asking for the moon.
But it does pigeon hole you into finding a GM that will match your coach and can work with him. It is also a non-football guy making the decision alone on the next HC.
Oh, and I don't think it was ever fine w/ Collins. That was two non-football guys (Collins had never worked in a NFL teams front office) deciding.
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Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.
Masters said:
Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.well for one - Savage was not just a let down cos of him being in a different page with RAC but he was pretty bad at handling other situation that just need a cool head. And Im sure in a professional environment people will know their roles and responsibilities and the need to be on the same page.
Also, Why Romeo did not play some of the youngsters and had excess faith in people who are "not doing well" in the situation is also beyond me ... surely any coach will realize that he has to try something different just to get he spark ...
I feel they both were a mismatch ... I'm sure that the next two hirings will be more professional ... just cos of the pressure on them to be on the same page and the knowledge of what happened in the past.
While I do agree that the past has left a bitter taste in our mouths of having a coach and a GM in different directions, how often has this happened ? Also, do we risk losing top candidates just waiting for Pioli ? What if in the end he says bye bye to the browns and we dont have any good coach in the market for 09 ? wait for 2010 and let RAC continue or go with other coach/co-ordinator who were not hired and risk losing that year too ?
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Masters said:
Why oh why would anyone want Lerner to hire the coach before the GM? Does no one remember that is how the Savage and RAC fiasco started? Collins and Lerner pretty much hired RAC after his interview, before they ever hired Savage.well for one - Savage was not just a let down cos of him being in a different page with RAC but he was pretty bad at handling other situation that just need a cool head. And Im sure in a professional environment people will know their roles and responsibilities and the need to be on the same page.
Also, Why Romeo did not play some of the youngsters and had excess faith in people who are "not doing well" in the situation is also beyond me ... surely any coach will realize that he has to try something different just to get he spark ...
I feel they both were a mismatch ... I'm sure that the next two hirings will be more professional ... just cos of the pressure on them to be on the same page and the knowledge of what happened in the past.
While I do agree that the past has left a bitter taste in our mouths of having a coach and a GM in different directions, how often has this happened ? Also, do we risk losing top candidates just waiting for Pioli ? What if in the end he says bye bye to the browns and we dont have any good coach in the market for 09 ? wait for 2010 and let RAC continue or go with other coach/co-ordinator who were not hired and risk losing that year too ?
well for one - Savage was not just a let down cos of him being in a different page with RAC but he was pretty bad at handling other situation that just need a cool head. And Im sure in a professional environment people will know their roles and responsibilities and the need to be on the same page.
Also, Why Romeo did not play some of the youngsters and had excess faith in people who are "not doing well" in the situation is also beyond me ... surely any coach will realize that he has to try something different just to get he spark ...
I feel they both were a mismatch ... I'm sure that the next two hirings will be more professional ... just cos of the pressure on them to be on the same page and the knowledge of what happened in the past.
While I do agree that the past has left a bitter taste in our mouths of having a coach and a GM in different directions, how often has this happened ? Also, do we risk losing top candidates just waiting for Pioli ? What if in the end he says bye bye to the browns and we dont have any good coach in the market for 09 ? wait for 2010 and let RAC continue or go with other coach/co-ordinator who were not hired and risk losing that year too ?
Do you trust Lerner to even hire the right coach, w/o the help of a GM? I sure don't. That is why I don't want Lerner jumping up and hiring a new coach before he picks the new GM. Be it Pioli or someone else.
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@jadbf said:
John,here's my problem. I actually believe the one sticking point left between pioli and lerner IS ERIC MANGINI. I believe Piloi really wants Ferentz and Lerner has his heart set on Mangini.
So then my question becomes. DO WE REALLY TRUST Lerner's track record of hiring people to A) pick a winner at head coach and then
hire a GM that will work with that coach?For me it's not about prefering any one of these guys over another. But this next regime has to be 100% on the same page from day one or we are screwed IMO. And I don't trust Lerner to hire two people seperately and guarantee me that will happen. I'd prefer to get the GM first who ever it is, and then let them pick the coach.
And I don't really care who either one is at this point.
If MANGINI is the sticking point...I agree with you. Go with Pioli and Ferentz.
However, if it is true what the PD has said...that Pioli is asking for power that NO NFL TEAM would give...then he needs to be avoided.
As for the football thing...we are forgetting that we can gave a VP and a GM instead of a VP/GM. The VP can be a non-football guy (like Collins was) and the GM is basically the personnel guy. If Pioli is asking for too much power...then maybe we are better off going with Mangini and a guy HE KNOWS he can work with.
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@inspecta said:
Like John I disagree with this post.You guys are putting the cart before the horse. We absolutely need to hire the GM first, and then let that GM hire the coach.
If you hire the coach first then the GM, then you are forcing a GM to work with a guy he didn't hire. It makes no sense whatsoever.
That's how good organizations do it, however it looks like lerner isn't concerned with doing it the right way. I don't question his desire to build a winner, but then again buying that soccer team in England was a slap in the face to us as Browns fans. Make this franchise a winner, then go out and buy another club.
Bottom line is it is imperative that we have an organization that is on the same page all around, and I don't see how we can do that if we hire a head coach before the GM.
I agree with hiring a GM and letting him select a HC he can work with. But, if Lerner has reservations about Ferentz, and Pioli demands absolute power, then is Pioli really the guy? If Pioli refuses to bend on this, do you have a strain already?
Believe me, there isn't just one guy out there that can be a GM. Is he maybe the best guy? That's still to be seen since Belichick called the shots in NE. We need to make sure we have the right fit.
My ideal situation is not a GM or HC with absolute power. Give me a guy like Ernie Accorsi as VP of football operations, who has final say, a GM that reports to him but has power to make operational decisions in conjunction with the HC.
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well for one - Savage was not just a let down cos of him being in a different page with RAC but he was pretty bad at handling other situation that just need a cool head. And Im sure in a professional environment people will know their roles and responsibilities and the need to be on the same page.
Also, Why Romeo did not play some of the youngsters and had excess faith in people who are "not doing well" in the situation is also beyond me ... surely any coach will realize that he has to try something different just to get he spark ...
I feel they both were a mismatch ... I'm sure that the next two hirings will be more professional ... just cos of the pressure on them to be on the same page and the knowledge of what happened in the past.
While I do agree that the past has left a bitter taste in our mouths of having a coach and a GM in different directions, how often has this happened ? Also, do we risk losing top candidates just waiting for Pioli ? What if in the end he says bye bye to the browns and we dont have any good coach in the market for 09 ? wait for 2010 and let RAC continue or go with other coach/co-ordinator who were not hired and risk losing that year too ?
Do you trust Lerner to even hire the right coach, w/o the help of a GM? I sure don't. That is why I don't want Lerner jumping up and hiring a new coach before he picks the new GM. Be it Pioli or someone else.
Masters said:
Do you trust Lerner to even hire the right coach, w/o the help of a GM? I sure don't. That is why I don't want Lerner jumping up and hiring a new coach before he picks the new GM. Be it Pioli or someone else.If this quote of yours is in assumption to the fact that Pioli has enough strings to pull to get Ferentz then I'm not sold on that argument. I would prefer a mid table mediocre learning coach like Mangini to a Ferentz type guy who just hasnt faced the NFL scenario recently. Plus there is also not just head coach but his entire coaching team+ STC, OC, DC ...
I think Mangini will have enough knowledge to get us going in the right direction. He did improve the Jets and the late season was more of Favre returning to his normal self. unless there is some brilliant guy in the Jets coaching staff who has avoided the lime light I would credit MAngini with the improvement. With Cowher out and Parcells not in the call ... Shanahan is proven but is a control freak with limited Defensive brilliance .. Mangini is one of the better coaching options available now unless we want to go with unproven talented co-ordinators.
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Masters said:
Do you trust Lerner to even hire the right coach, w/o the help of a GM? I sure don't. That is why I don't want Lerner jumping up and hiring a new coach before he picks the new GM. Be it Pioli or someone else.If this quote of yours is in assumption to the fact that Pioli has enough strings to pull to get Ferentz then I'm not sold on that argument. I would prefer a mid table mediocre learning coach like Mangini to a Ferentz type guy who just hasnt faced the NFL scenario recently. Plus there is also not just head coach but his entire coaching team+ STC, OC, DC ...
I think Mangini will have enough knowledge to get us going in the right direction. He did improve the Jets and the late season was more of Favre returning to his normal self. unless there is some brilliant guy in the Jets coaching staff who has avoided the lime light I would credit MAngini with the improvement. With Cowher out and Parcells not in the call ... Shanahan is proven but is a control freak with limited Defensive brilliance .. Mangini is one of the better coaching options available now unless we want to go with unproven talented co-ordinators.
If this quote of yours is in assumption to the fact that Pioli has enough strings to pull to get Ferentz then I'm not sold on that argument. I would prefer a mid table mediocre learning coach like Mangini to a Ferentz type guy who just hasnt faced the NFL scenario recently. Plus there is also not just head coach but his entire coaching team+ STC, OC, DC ...
I think Mangini will have enough knowledge to get us going in the right direction. He did improve the Jets and the late season was more of Favre returning to his normal self. unless there is some brilliant guy in the Jets coaching staff who has avoided the lime light I would credit MAngini with the improvement. With Cowher out and Parcells not in the call ... Shanahan is proven but is a control freak with limited Defensive brilliance .. Mangini is one of the better coaching options available now unless we want to go with unproven talented co-ordinators.
I am not sold on either as HC. I just don't like the idea of picking the HC before the GM, and I don't see any established (or previously established) GM wanting to come into that.
If Mangini really is Lerner's choice, well he can wait as long as he wants, because no other team will hire Mangini right away as a HC.
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If this quote of yours is in assumption to the fact that Pioli has enough strings to pull to get Ferentz then I'm not sold on that argument. I would prefer a mid table mediocre learning coach like Mangini to a Ferentz type guy who just hasnt faced the NFL scenario recently. Plus there is also not just head coach but his entire coaching team+ STC, OC, DC ...
I think Mangini will have enough knowledge to get us going in the right direction. He did improve the Jets and the late season was more of Favre returning to his normal self. unless there is some brilliant guy in the Jets coaching staff who has avoided the lime light I would credit MAngini with the improvement. With Cowher out and Parcells not in the call ... Shanahan is proven but is a control freak with limited Defensive brilliance .. Mangini is one of the better coaching options available now unless we want to go with unproven talented co-ordinators.
I am not sold on either as HC. I just don't like the idea of picking the HC before the GM, and I don't see any established (or previously established) GM wanting to come into that.
If Mangini really is Lerner's choice, well he can wait as long as he wants, because no other team will hire Mangini right away as a HC.
Masters said:
I am not sold on either as HC. I just don't like the idea of picking the HC before the GM, and I don't see any established (or previously established) GM wanting to come into that.If Mangini really is Lerner's choice, well he can wait as long as he wants, because no other team will hire Mangini right away as a HC.
i would disagree with that .... Raiders, Lions, Dallas, Jets are other teams that are in the hunt for a coach. So while Mangini might not be a good fit with the Jets ... Im sure Lions or Raiders could use him. Dallas might also if Shanahan says no to them.
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Masters said:
I am not sold on either as HC. I just don't like the idea of picking the HC before the GM, and I don't see any established (or previously established) GM wanting to come into that.If Mangini really is Lerner's choice, well he can wait as long as he wants, because no other team will hire Mangini right away as a HC.
i would disagree with that .... Raiders, Lions, Dallas, Jets are other teams that are in the hunt for a coach. So while Mangini might not be a good fit with the Jets ... Im sure Lions or Raiders could use him. Dallas might also if Shanahan says no to them.
i would disagree with that .... Raiders, Lions, Dallas, Jets are other teams that are in the hunt for a coach. So while Mangini might not be a good fit with the Jets ... Im sure Lions or Raiders could use him. Dallas might also if Shanahan says no to them.
Stranger things have happened, but most "un-named GMs and league sources", acording to several articles, say no one wants to touch Mangini with a ten foot pool because of the spy gate thing. There is an untrust about him. being reported.
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i would disagree with that .... Raiders, Lions, Dallas, Jets are other teams that are in the hunt for a coach. So while Mangini might not be a good fit with the Jets ... Im sure Lions or Raiders could use him. Dallas might also if Shanahan says no to them.
Stranger things have happened, but most "un-named GMs and league sources", acording to several articles, say no one wants to touch Mangini with a ten foot pool because of the spy gate thing. There is an untrust about him. being reported.
Masters said:
Stranger things have happened, but most "un-named GMs and league sources", acording to several articles, say no one wants to touch Mangini with a ten foot pool because of the spy gate thing. There is an untrust about him. being reported.That makes sense ....
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