Let's Get Ready To Rumble! Colt Mccoy Vs. Robert Griffin Iii
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That "expert" basically just discredited any QB that ever plays well and gives credit to their system.
I'm pretty sure Brady has played with not a lot around him many times and succeeded.
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That "expert" basically just discredited any QB that ever plays well and gives credit to their system.
I'm pretty sure Brady has played with not a lot around him many times and succeeded.
That "expert" basically just discredited any QB that ever plays well and gives credit to their system.
I'm pretty sure Brady has played with not a lot around him many times and succeeded.
I suggest that it is highly possible that "the system" makes 50% of the QB.
Obviously "the system" that the Cleveland Browns are trying to run has been successful in the past with the likes of Joe Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre, and others having run it.
Hell, that system even made Jeff Garcia look good....and he definitely did NOT look good playing outside that system when he was here with Cleveland before.
Now, with superior talent in the right system, you get a Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, etc.
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I found this on a web site and thought it was an interesting perspective from a knowledgeable individual:
"As a former D1 player, and current coach at a Nationally ranked High School program, I pride myself on knowing, in it's entirety, the game of football. And, what I can tell you is two things for sure:
1) Robert Griffin III is as dynamic of a Qb as has been in the draft in recent years. I've broken down about 23-25 games of his play. I've watched his HS tape, and I've watched the majority of his College tape as well. Bottom line is, the kid can play, and yes, he WILL be a franchise type QB. Is he Cleveland's guy? I;m not sure, but, my gut says if he's there, he will be a Brown.
2) Colt McCoy, for as hated and downtrodden as he is, is in fact, a good QB. Again, when Cleveland selected him, I took on the challenge of breaking down a ton of his film too. While he has his shortcomings, he is still a very good player and a guy that with the proper help, could be the best in Cleveland since Bernie.
He CAN, rergardless of what you'll hear, make all the throws. He actually has above average arm strength, and save for his deep out ball (which many QB's struggle with) he throws the ball well.
Is it a "QB driven league" absolutely. But...BUT....a QB is only as good as those around him and the system he plays in. Need proof? How about the fact that when Tom Brady went down with his ACL, a guy that hadn't started since High School was able to step in a lead his team to an 11-5 record? System.
How does a guy that is literally identical to Colt McCoy (arm strength, size, etc..) in Matt Flynn set a Green Bay passing record, besting not only Brett Favre but Aaron Rodgers as well? System.
How does a QB with mediocre talent, Joe Flacco, throw for 3600+yards in 3 consecutive seasons? System and Players.
Let Tom Brady play his career on a team that's not already "made", and I guarantee that you're not singing his praises. Let Joe Flacco start in Cleveland and Colt start in Baltimore, and I guarantee the story is different. Give Colt McCoy Ray Rice and that O-Line.....you seeing my point here?
What you, and many others have to realize, is that for a QB, time is everything. System is everything. HELP is everything.
Colt, in 2011, threw for 2700+ yards, 14TD's and 11INT's in an injury shortened season on a BAD team, with a horrid OC, literally no help and an O-Line (at least the right side) that would struggle to block most Pac 12 teams D-Line.
Do you really believe that if Colt had the same set of circumstances that Flacco or Dalton had that he wouldn't have had the same year as either of those guys? Give me a break....
Honestly, I believe that if Colt had the set of circumstances that Dalton had or Flacco, he probably would have had a better season than either of them. And, I say that not as a McCoy fan/supporter, but, as a guy that watches the game in a different manner than most....from an coaches perspective and an analytical point of view.
Can Colt McCoy being a franchise guy? Maybe not. But, what he can be is a very good QB, and a guy that can deliver a playoff season, some wins and maybe even a shot at the big game. But, he needs help.
Look, Trent Dilfer lead his team to a Super Bowl, as did Rex Grossman, Matt Hasselbeck, Brad Johnson, Neil O'Donnell and Jake Delhomme. And honestly, I believe, based of what I've seen that McCoy is better than ALL of the affore mentioned QB's.
Cleveland needs to surround McCoy with the best players they can find, and really see. Drawing a conclusion off of 21 games, playing with a bad OC and equally bad supporting cast is a bit of a stretch...."
From now on I will start my posts with "as a former D1 player and current player/coach of a nationally raked minor league football team located in the Southeast".
Since apparently that's all it takes to be considered an expert.
But really though, he makes good points. The deep out is by and large the hardest throw to make. It covers the most distance of any timing-based throw.
Colt McCoy might not be Brett Favre, but he's no Chris Simms, either. Honestly, I think people would complain if the perfectly engineered love child of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were to be our QB. I'd love to see what people said about Bernie back in the day. I'm sure it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
However, I do believe that Holmgren and Co. are going to be looking to upgrade at QB, no matter how many "experts" voice their support over Colt.
From now on I will start my posts with "as a former D1 player and current player/coach of a nationally raked minor league football team located in the Southeast".
Since apparently that's all it takes to be considered an expert.
But really though, he makes good points. The deep out is by and large the hardest throw to make. It covers the most distance of any timing-based throw.
Colt McCoy might not be Brett Favre, but he's no Chris Simms, either. Honestly, I think people would complain if the perfectly engineered love child of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were to be our QB. I'd love to see what people said about Bernie back in the day. I'm sure it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
However, I do believe that Holmgren and Co. are going to be looking to upgrade at QB, no matter how many "experts" voice their support over Colt.
First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
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I suggest that it is highly possible that "the system" makes 50% of the QB.
Obviously "the system" that the Cleveland Browns are trying to run has been successful in the past with the likes of Joe Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre, and others having run it.
Hell, that system even made Jeff Garcia look good....and he definitely did NOT look good playing outside that system when he was here with Cleveland before.
Now, with superior talent in the right system, you get a Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, etc.
Makes sense
First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
Really? I am not trying to be a Michigan homer here... but... really!? You don't see what makes Brady a franchise QB?
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He has it in him...just let him play... at the very least we improve his value for a better trade...we miss out on nothing by not drafting RG3 this year and almost complete our rebuild for the 2015 season.
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I suggest that it is highly possible that "the system" makes 50% of the QB.
Obviously "the system" that the Cleveland Browns are trying to run has been successful in the past with the likes of Joe Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre, and others having run it.
Hell, that system even made Jeff Garcia look good....and he definitely did NOT look good playing outside that system when he was here with Cleveland before.
Now, with superior talent in the right system, you get a Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, etc.
Makes sense
First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
Really? I am not trying to be a Michigan homer here... but... really!? You don't see what makes Brady a franchise QB?
Makes sense
Really? I am not trying to be a Michigan homer here... but... really!? You don't see what makes Brady a franchise QB?
Based on his performance in college and his work at the Combine, NO. And I wasn't the only person that didn't see a franchise quarterback or he wouldn't have been drafted that low.
Look, I know it can't be done, but I would love to see his statistics in his first year playing on the same Browns team that Colt had last year. Brady is not as gifted as Warren Moon, or Peyton Manning. Yes, he executes plays well - but he seems to have more time to throw the ball than any other NFL QB I've seen in recent memory. In three games that I can remember him facing a strong pass rush (Oakland Conference Final, NY Gaints Superbowl, Ravens Conference Final, he lost two of the three and should have lost them all (stupid tuck rule).
But yes, now, give him a good system, weapons and time to throw, and he'll rack up 50 points and make the oposition look like little league. Today he is a franchise quarterback.
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well good thing the combine determines NFL success, huh?
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From now on I will start my posts with "as a former D1 player and current player/coach of a nationally raked minor league football team located in the Southeast".
Since apparently that's all it takes to be considered an expert.
But really though, he makes good points. The deep out is by and large the hardest throw to make. It covers the most distance of any timing-based throw.
Colt McCoy might not be Brett Favre, but he's no Chris Simms, either. Honestly, I think people would complain if the perfectly engineered love child of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were to be our QB. I'd love to see what people said about Bernie back in the day. I'm sure it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
However, I do believe that Holmgren and Co. are going to be looking to upgrade at QB, no matter how many "experts" voice their support over Colt.
First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
Don't get your panties in a wad, Pepe le Pew. I wasn't calling you out. I was making fun of his opening statement.
I believe systems are a definite mask for talent deficiencies. Some lesser QB's will thrive in certain systems while others with greater physical tools will fail. It's all about playing to your QB's strengths. Some of the greatest QB's in history were only so because they were a perfect pair with the coaches' system, or the coaches they had knew enough to change their system to the QB.
There has to be a reason Colt seems to be regressing from last year to this one, and I don't blame him.
Shurmur's system appears to be garbage. Chalk it up to first year mistakes, confusion, what have you, but if the regression continues next season we know where the blame will lie.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
Don't get your panties in a wad, Pepe le Pew. I wasn't calling you out. I was making fun of his opening statement.
I believe systems are a definite mask for talent deficiencies. Some lesser QB's will thrive in certain systems while others with greater physical tools will fail. It's all about playing to your QB's strengths. Some of the greatest QB's in history were only so because they were a perfect pair with the coaches' system, or the coaches they had knew enough to change their system to the QB.
There has to be a reason Colt seems to be regressing from last year to this one, and I don't blame him.
Shurmur's system appears to be garbage. Chalk it up to first year mistakes, confusion, what have you, but if the regression continues next season we know where the blame will lie.
Don't get your panties in a wad, Pepe le Pew. I wasn't calling you out. I was making fun of his opening statement.
I believe systems are a definite mask for talent deficiencies. Some lesser QB's will thrive in certain systems while others with greater physical tools will fail. It's all about playing to your QB's strengths. Some of the greatest QB's in history were only so because they were a perfect pair with the coaches' system, or the coaches they had knew enough to change their system to the QB.
There has to be a reason Colt seems to be regressing from last year to this one, and I don't blame him.
Shurmur's system appears to be garbage. Chalk it up to first year mistakes, confusion, what have you, but if the regression continues next season we know where the blame will lie.
The thing is, I think Colt McCoy is very well suited to the NWCO. It is Shurmur's capability of implementing that offense and getting these players of his who are well suited for it to perform in it.
In other words, to me 90% of it at least is coaching. Colt bears some responsibility for some poor play...but I really do give him a pass for the most part.
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You need a system of some kind. Some systems are better, but need a QB to do his job withen it. However, the Browns seriously lack talent, and I'm not banannas on their coaching staff either. So Colt for starters isn't in an ideal situation. Problem with Colt is, he does have limitations, maybe bulking up, and improving his arm strength will help him long term with the Browns or some other team.
With that in mind, I think Robert Griffin III will be a stud, he has the athletism and the smarts to go far. But I doubt he is the saviour of the Browns. Theres a serious lack of offensive talent (should be focus of 22nd overall pick as well) The Browns are a while away, and some good drafts from being a good offensive team (unless RG3 plays like Newton) and while short term, Colt would be the better answer, but long term Robert Griffin III is the way to go.
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You need a system of some kind. Some systems are better, but need a QB to do his job withen it. However, the Browns seriously lack talent, and I'm not banannas on their coaching staff either. So Colt for starters isn't in an ideal situation. Problem with Colt is, he does have limitations, maybe bulking up, and improving his arm strength will help him long term with the Browns or some other team.
With that in mind, I think Robert Griffin III will be a stud, he has the athletism and the smarts to go far. But I doubt he is the saviour of the Browns. Theres a serious lack of offensive talent (should be focus of 22nd overall pick as well) The Browns are a while away, and some good drafts from being a good offensive team (unless RG3 plays like Newton) and while short term, Colt would be the better answer, but long term Robert Griffin III is the way to go.
You need a system of some kind. Some systems are better, but need a QB to do his job withen it. However, the Browns seriously lack talent, and I'm not banannas on their coaching staff either. So Colt for starters isn't in an ideal situation. Problem with Colt is, he does have limitations, maybe bulking up, and improving his arm strength will help him long term with the Browns or some other team.
With that in mind, I think Robert Griffin III will be a stud, he has the athletism and the smarts to go far. But I doubt he is the saviour of the Browns. Theres a serious lack of offensive talent (should be focus of 22nd overall pick as well) The Browns are a while away, and some good drafts from being a good offensive team (unless RG3 plays like Newton) and while short term, Colt would be the better answer, but long term Robert Griffin III is the way to go.
Bulking up is the last thing Colt should do...look at how Brady Quinn bulked up and fucked up his own throwing mechanics. He developed bulk and mass wich hindered his ability to throw accurately. He should develope stretch type muscles that will allow him to be more fluid and have a nice crisp follow through
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You need a system of some kind. Some systems are better, but need a QB to do his job withen it. However, the Browns seriously lack talent, and I'm not banannas on their coaching staff either. So Colt for starters isn't in an ideal situation. Problem with Colt is, he does have limitations, maybe bulking up, and improving his arm strength will help him long term with the Browns or some other team.
With that in mind, I think Robert Griffin III will be a stud, he has the athletism and the smarts to go far. But I doubt he is the saviour of the Browns. Theres a serious lack of offensive talent (should be focus of 22nd overall pick as well) The Browns are a while away, and some good drafts from being a good offensive team (unless RG3 plays like Newton) and while short term, Colt would be the better answer, but long term Robert Griffin III is the way to go.
Bulking up is the last thing Colt should do...look at how Brady Quinn bulked up and fucked up his own throwing mechanics. He developed bulk and mass wich hindered his ability to throw accurately. He should develope stretch type muscles that will allow him to be more fluid and have a nice crisp follow through
Bulking up is the last thing Colt should do...look at how Brady Quinn bulked up and fucked up his own throwing mechanics. He developed bulk and mass wich hindered his ability to throw accurately. He should develope stretch type muscles that will allow him to be more fluid and have a nice crisp follow through
Good point. I didn't really consider his mechanics. Although over the offseason couldn't he be coached into different, possibly better throwing mechanics as he bulked up? Didn't something similar happen with Aaron Rodgers? Maybe I've gotten myself mixed up.
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First, I never called him an expert and he just said that he prided himself on knowing football. I just thought what he said made some sense. As for your QB DNA selection, there are plenty of successful players that were more system than talent. And I put Brady in that category. I credit him with good decision making and an accurate arm, but most of the time I'm scratching my head as to what makes him a franchise QB.
Don't get your panties in a wad, Pepe le Pew. I wasn't calling you out. I was making fun of his opening statement.
I believe systems are a definite mask for talent deficiencies. Some lesser QB's will thrive in certain systems while others with greater physical tools will fail. It's all about playing to your QB's strengths. Some of the greatest QB's in history were only so because they were a perfect pair with the coaches' system, or the coaches they had knew enough to change their system to the QB.
There has to be a reason Colt seems to be regressing from last year to this one, and I don't blame him.
Shurmur's system appears to be garbage. Chalk it up to first year mistakes, confusion, what have you, but if the regression continues next season we know where the blame will lie.
Don't get your panties in a wad, Pepe le Pew. I wasn't calling you out. I was making fun of his opening statement.
I believe systems are a definite mask for talent deficiencies. Some lesser QB's will thrive in certain systems while others with greater physical tools will fail. It's all about playing to your QB's strengths. Some of the greatest QB's in history were only so because they were a perfect pair with the coaches' system, or the coaches they had knew enough to change their system to the QB.
There has to be a reason Colt seems to be regressing from last year to this one, and I don't blame him.
Shurmur's system appears to be garbage. Chalk it up to first year mistakes, confusion, what have you, but if the regression continues next season we know where the blame will lie.
We're cool, my fellow Browns-fan and I really agree with your post and those that followed. I think we're going to have to trust H&H to determine where the talent/ceiling levels are with Colt and RG3. Although not perfect, we seem to be better at evaluating talent now than ever before.
Having said that, one of your comments really interested me. "There has to be a reason Colt seems to have regressed ..." Look, I've heard all the theories about why he regressed: Hillis, the right side, not enough time to read, dropped balls, new system, shortened preseason. But honestly (and board please don't beat me up for syaing this), I understand ... but I don't really accept it.
In 2010, he rolls out and makes perfectly accurate timed throw 20 yards down field. In 2011, the same plays end up in the turf, 4 feet in front of the receiver. Quick slant play to Little hits him in stride? Not in 2011, it's three feet behind him. It wasn't until very late in the season did we get any sense of flow and timing from Colt. And his throws fluttered more than in 2010, so they got to their destination slower. It's like Tiger losing his golf swing (but at least we knew why). My personal opinion is that the smooth rotation of the ball means a lot to receivers catching the balls and following its trajectory. And it can increase the velocity of the ball tremendously. Look at when a punt "turns over" at it's apex with a perfect spiral. It carries the ball an extra 20 yards at least.
So I don't have the answer, but Colt needs to figure out what the answer is and work on it during the off season. "Something" mechanical is not working and it's throwing off his timing, confidence and overall game.
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Don't get your panties in a wad, Pepe le Pew. I wasn't calling you out. I was making fun of his opening statement.
I believe systems are a definite mask for talent deficiencies. Some lesser QB's will thrive in certain systems while others with greater physical tools will fail. It's all about playing to your QB's strengths. Some of the greatest QB's in history were only so because they were a perfect pair with the coaches' system, or the coaches they had knew enough to change their system to the QB.
There has to be a reason Colt seems to be regressing from last year to this one, and I don't blame him.
Shurmur's system appears to be garbage. Chalk it up to first year mistakes, confusion, what have you, but if the regression continues next season we know where the blame will lie.
We're cool, my fellow Browns-fan and I really agree with your post and those that followed. I think we're going to have to trust H&H to determine where the talent/ceiling levels are with Colt and RG3. Although not perfect, we seem to be better at evaluating talent now than ever before.
Having said that, one of your comments really interested me. "There has to be a reason Colt seems to have regressed ..." Look, I've heard all the theories about why he regressed: Hillis, the right side, not enough time to read, dropped balls, new system, shortened preseason. But honestly (and board please don't beat me up for syaing this), I understand ... but I don't really accept it.
In 2010, he rolls out and makes perfectly accurate timed throw 20 yards down field. In 2011, the same plays end up in the turf, 4 feet in front of the receiver. Quick slant play to Little hits him in stride? Not in 2011, it's three feet behind him. It wasn't until very late in the season did we get any sense of flow and timing from Colt. And his throws fluttered more than in 2010, so they got to their destination slower. It's like Tiger losing his golf swing (but at least we knew why). My personal opinion is that the smooth rotation of the ball means a lot to receivers catching the balls and following its trajectory. And it can increase the velocity of the ball tremendously. Look at when a punt "turns over" at it's apex with a perfect spiral. It carries the ball an extra 20 yards at least.
So I don't have the answer, but Colt needs to figure out what the answer is and work on it during the off season. "Something" mechanical is not working and it's throwing off his timing, confidence and overall game.
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Makes sense
Really? I am not trying to be a Michigan homer here... but... really!? You don't see what makes Brady a franchise QB?
Based on his performance in college and his work at the Combine, NO. And I wasn't the only person that didn't see a franchise quarterback or he wouldn't have been drafted that low.
Look, I know it can't be done, but I would love to see his statistics in his first year playing on the same Browns team that Colt had last year. Brady is not as gifted as Warren Moon, or Peyton Manning. Yes, he executes plays well - but he seems to have more time to throw the ball than any other NFL QB I've seen in recent memory. In three games that I can remember him facing a strong pass rush (Oakland Conference Final, NY Gaints Superbowl, Ravens Conference Final, he lost two of the three and should have lost them all (stupid tuck rule).
But yes, now, give him a good system, weapons and time to throw, and he'll rack up 50 points and make the oposition look like little league. Today he is a franchise quarterback.
Yes, he executes plays well - but he seems to have more time to throw the ball
The entire theory of Belichick is.. spend big money on the OL and QB. That's why Brady has hours to throw.
The success of the Pats just shows the nonsense of "rich4" and "Ghoolie" to be completely bogus - WR's don't accomplish anything by themselves.
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I honestly think colt still has/had some issue with his shoulder neck...i am looking back at some of his passes during his jr. senior year at texas and there is major heat on some of those...he steps into a couple and the ball nearly goes through the recievers body. I also remember he had a major pinched nerve in his sophmore season that sidelined him for a while. Can we not take a look and see if he may have some structural nerve issues that keep causing these to keep occuring? Will time fix these does H&H understand the underlying structure and do they see the anomolies?
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