2012 Nfl Draft
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LBs, a DE, a RT, a WR, a CB, and even a S.
so where do we have the pick to waste on a QB?
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cbbacker said:
Me and my buddy just talked about this the other day and my reasoning why i would take kalil. I wouldn't take him over blackmon. But consider this, yes we have joe thomas, but what has been a glaring need since 1999? Last 5 years our right side was utterly dominated through every week. Plugging a round 2-7 player doesn't guarantee a fix, and yes neither does kalil, but with him he could be a 15 year pro bowler. Would you really pass on a guy who could be a 15 year pro bowler at RT? I would love to see us land blackmon then decastro at 22 if he falls. i doubt that happens though.
Everyone knows there are 3 aspects to football, special teams, defense, offense. People however do seem to forget there are 2 aspects of offense and defense. running game and passing game, and run defense and pass defense. How do you fix a bad running game? Get a better back, and/or improve the offensive line. Now how do you improve the passing game? you improve your recievers, improve your qb, or your offensive line. Now do you see a correlation? offensive line would help not 1 area, but 2 areas. where a receiver would only help 1 area.
I agree 100% we need playmakers, but a strong line gives our running back running lanes, look what just losing stienbach did to our running game this year when hillis actually played, and they give our qb more time to wait for open players. even the best corners can only cover for what 6-8 sec? The problem is we cannot even give our qb 4 sec because our line is extremely weak.
I am sure alot of people disagree with me, but how much did the giants line 4 years ago play a part in there superbowl win over the undefeated pats? Just look at the teams in the playoffs, not all of them have star players, but most of them have very good or better offensive lines. so i do think taking a tackle who can play the right side very well is exciting to me, we still have pick 22 to address playmakers.
YOU DONT DRAFT A RT 4TH OVERALL. YOU DONT PAY A RT TOP 5 MONEY.
I agree RT is a position of need. But no GM would ever draft a RT that high. RT's are LT's that got picked in the later rounds.
It just doesn't happen.
YOU DONT DRAFT A RT 4TH OVERALL. YOU DONT PAY A RT TOP 5 MONEY.
I agree RT is a position of need. But no GM would ever draft a RT that high. RT's are LT's that got picked in the later rounds.
It just doesn't happen.
what exactly is lt money to a rookie? you seem to forget that the no. 4 pick only got 19.6 million last year, thats 32.4 million less then joe thomas, so what money are you talking about exactly? top 5 money is nothing like it was.
And after that, what happens to players like robert gallery, andre smith, etc. that are top 5 picks but cannot play LT? thats right they play RT so whats the difference? if they cant play RT they move to guard.
so money isn't an issue anymore, top 5 tackles alot of times actually do play RT. So why again is this bad? do you not think we need a RT? you want to go into the season with pashos and hicks again? watch them give up sacks and qb hits all season? not me, bring on kalil if he fell. No gm in the game would pass on a 10 year pro bowler at any pick or any position. none.
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YOU DONT DRAFT A RT 4TH OVERALL. YOU DONT PAY A RT TOP 5 MONEY.
I agree RT is a position of need. But no GM would ever draft a RT that high. RT's are LT's that got picked in the later rounds.
It just doesn't happen.
what exactly is lt money to a rookie? you seem to forget that the no. 4 pick only got 19.6 million last year, thats 32.4 million less then joe thomas, so what money are you talking about exactly? top 5 money is nothing like it was.
And after that, what happens to players like robert gallery, andre smith, etc. that are top 5 picks but cannot play LT? thats right they play RT so whats the difference? if they cant play RT they move to guard.
so money isn't an issue anymore, top 5 tackles alot of times actually do play RT. So why again is this bad? do you not think we need a RT? you want to go into the season with pashos and hicks again? watch them give up sacks and qb hits all season? not me, bring on kalil if he fell. No gm in the game would pass on a 10 year pro bowler at any pick or any position. none.
cbbacker said:
what exactly is lt money to a rookie? you seem to forget that the no. 4 pick only got 19.6 million last year, thats 32.4 million less then joe thomas, so what money are you talking about exactly? top 5 money is nothing like it was.
And after that, what happens to players like robert gallery, andre smith, etc. that are top 5 picks but cannot play LT? thats right they play RT so whats the difference? if they cant play RT they move to guard.
so money isn't an issue anymore, top 5 tackles a lot of times actually do play RT. So why again is this bad? do you not think we need a RT? you want to go into the season with pashos and hicks again? watch them give up sacks and qb hits all season? not me, bring on kalil if he fell. No gm in the game would pass on a 10 year pro bowler at any pick or any position. none.
Yes, we need an upgrade over Pashos. Gallery is the exception to the rule. Very, very few starting pure RTs are ever drafted in the first round- Brian Bulaga is the only one I can think of.
Look, you can get an absolute stud RT without using a #4 overall pick on one. It's never been done- at least intentionally. If you want to play your fantasy draft a LT and move him to RT, pray Mike Adams falls to the second round. Walter Football has the highest rated pure RT going 44th in this years draft- about where Pro Bowler Sebastian Vollmer (RT Patriots) got drafted.
The Browns have much higher value fish to fry in this years draft than doing something like taking Kalil with the #4 pick.
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As in most all drafts, players with the highest ceiling also tend to come with multiple & major question marks. In Coples case, I have heard all along that he lacks intensity & motivation. I wouldn't TOUCH him. That being said, I wanted an intimidating LB (Burfict), but with HIS question marks, how wise would that choice be?
Bottom line is that when Heckert was with the Eagles, they were always solid. I totally trust him & his staff to orchestrate yet another good draft, so I'll just wait & see. I don't believe I have trusted the Brown's drafting ability like this since the 1950s & early '60s.
Hell, the Browns in that era didn't trust their own drafting ability. They dumped the likes of Willie Davis, Doug Atkins, Henry Jordan, Dick LeBeau, Len Dawson, and Bobby Mitchell....all HOFers that played primarily with other teams.
AHA!!! I said DRAFTING ability, didn't I? (NOT trades/cuts). The Browns DRAFTED all but ONE of the players you mentioned. That one player, Len Dawson, was drafted by the Steelers, traded to the Browns, cut, & didn't hook on until the old AFL's Dallas Texans signed him.
Back in those days, the Browns scouting & evaluation of College talent was absolutely top drawer as evidenced by those & more draft picks of that era. Their record of KEEPING many of those picks was not on that same high level, but we also had very deep & talented rosters back then, so if players didn't immediately excel, they were gone. I still recall how upset I was when they traded Bobby Mitchell for the draft rights to Ernie Davis of Syracuse (not coincidentally, Jimmy Brown's school). This broke up what I believe was the greatest RB tandem in NFL history (Jim Brown & Bobby Mitchell). The closest TANDEMS to them (playing at the same time) were the Colt's Lenny Moore/Alan Ameche & the Packer's Paul Hornung/Jim Taylor. Sadly, Ernie Davis contracted Leukemia which took his life quickly & Bobby is, of course, in the HOF today as a WR.
The difference today is that our current Browns don't have the depth or talent on today's roster to have to make difficult decisions. As we draft solid talent, it is an immediate upgrade & we will not be sending future HOFers out the door. These were different situations. Look at New England. They have had so much talent that they have also cut or traded away talent most teams would die for. At every level of success or lack of same, there are hard personnel decisions to be made. I'll continue to trust Heckert et al.
Mike
AHA!!! I said DRAFTING ability, didn't I? (NOT trades/cuts). The Browns DRAFTED all but ONE of the players you mentioned. That one player, Len Dawson, was drafted by the Steelers, traded to the Browns, cut, & didn't hook on until the old AFL's Dallas Texans signed him.
Back in those days, the Browns scouting & evaluation of College talent was absolutely top drawer as evidenced by those & more draft picks of that era. Their record of KEEPING many of those picks was not on that same high level, but we also had very deep & talented rosters back then, so if players didn't immediately excel, they were gone. I still recall how upset I was when they traded Bobby Mitchell for the draft rights to Ernie Davis of Syracuse (not coincidentally, Jimmy Brown's school). This broke up what I believe was the greatest RB tandem in NFL history (Jim Brown & Bobby Mitchell). The closest TANDEMS to them (playing at the same time) were the Colt's Lenny Moore/Alan Ameche & the Packer's Paul Hornung/Jim Taylor. Sadly, Ernie Davis contracted Leukemia which took his life quickly & Bobby is, of course, in the HOF today as a WR.
The difference today is that our current Browns don't have the depth or talent on today's roster to have to make difficult decisions. As we draft solid talent, it is an immediate upgrade & we will not be sending future HOFers out the door. These were different situations. Look at New England. They have had so much talent that they have also cut or traded away talent most teams would die for. At every level of success or lack of same, there are hard personnel decisions to be made. I'll continue to trust Heckert et al.
Mike
Of course, recall that upon trading Mitchell the Browns drafted Leroy Kelley. He and JB were on the same team together for 2 years, '64 and '65
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cbbacker said:
what exactly is lt money to a rookie? you seem to forget that the no. 4 pick only got 19.6 million last year, thats 32.4 million less then joe thomas, so what money are you talking about exactly? top 5 money is nothing like it was.
And after that, what happens to players like robert gallery, andre smith, etc. that are top 5 picks but cannot play LT? thats right they play RT so whats the difference? if they cant play RT they move to guard.
so money isn't an issue anymore, top 5 tackles a lot of times actually do play RT. So why again is this bad? do you not think we need a RT? you want to go into the season with pashos and hicks again? watch them give up sacks and qb hits all season? not me, bring on kalil if he fell. No gm in the game would pass on a 10 year pro bowler at any pick or any position. none.
Yes, we need an upgrade over Pashos. Gallery is the exception to the rule. Very, very few starting pure RTs are ever drafted in the first round- Brian Bulaga is the only one I can think of.
Look, you can get an absolute stud RT without using a #4 overall pick on one. It's never been done- at least intentionally. If you want to play your fantasy draft a LT and move him to RT, pray Mike Adams falls to the second round. Walter Football has the highest rated pure RT going 44th in this years draft- about where Pro Bowler Sebastian Vollmer (RT Patriots) got drafted.
The Browns have much higher value fish to fry in this years draft than doing something like taking Kalil with the #4 pick.
Yes, we need an upgrade over Pashos. Gallery is the exception to the rule. Very, very few starting pure RTs are ever drafted in the first round- Brian Bulaga is the only one I can think of.
Look, you can get an absolute stud RT without using a #4 overall pick on one. It's never been done- at least intentionally. If you want to play your fantasy draft a LT and move him to RT, pray Mike Adams falls to the second round. Walter Football has the highest rated pure RT going 44th in this years draft- about where Pro Bowler Sebastian Vollmer (RT Patriots) got drafted.
The Browns have much higher value fish to fry in this years draft than doing something like taking Kalil with the #4 pick.
Absolutely no argument here, the raiders got veldheer in round 2, chargers mcneil in round 2, i gotcha, i know it can happen, i am sure someone can find later round picks that have excelled. But if we cannot fill wr, what position you think we should take? i dont have faith in rg3, if we cannot take blackmon i hope we trade down, but if we cant who do we take? coples? hes even more hit or miss then kalil, claiborne? yea i think that could work. but how many teams take 2 top 10 corners, i say go for it, but most teams wouldnt dream of it, who else is left? i cannot see reaching for someone that can be had later, and pass on kalil.
please dont talk about walter football, everyone knows that is a joke of a site.
I just want to know who to take at 4 over a need position and the top T at this time in the draft if we cannot move back? and dont say rg3. if your going to convince me that we shouldn't take a tackly dont name a qb that i dont want, show me someone worthy of that pick that i can agree with, otherwise as far as i am concerned kalil is the pick.
Also btw 85% of the 1st round tackles play rt first, very few step in at left tackle and go, andre smith, bryan bulaga, jason smith, Anthony davis, Michael oher, jeff otah, all first round picks that play RT, and gallery plays guard, he couldn't make it at either tackle. so its more then just bulaga.
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Yes, we need an upgrade over Pashos. Gallery is the exception to the rule. Very, very few starting pure RTs are ever drafted in the first round- Brian Bulaga is the only one I can think of.
Look, you can get an absolute stud RT without using a #4 overall pick on one. It's never been done- at least intentionally. If you want to play your fantasy draft a LT and move him to RT, pray Mike Adams falls to the second round. Walter Football has the highest rated pure RT going 44th in this years draft- about where Pro Bowler Sebastian Vollmer (RT Patriots) got drafted.
The Browns have much higher value fish to fry in this years draft than doing something like taking Kalil with the #4 pick.
Absolutely no argument here, the raiders got veldheer in round 2, chargers mcneil in round 2, i gotcha, i know it can happen, i am sure someone can find later round picks that have excelled. But if we cannot fill wr, what position you think we should take? i dont have faith in rg3, if we cannot take blackmon i hope we trade down, but if we cant who do we take? coples? hes even more hit or miss then kalil, claiborne? yea i think that could work. but how many teams take 2 top 10 corners, i say go for it, but most teams wouldnt dream of it, who else is left? i cannot see reaching for someone that can be had later, and pass on kalil.
please dont talk about walter football, everyone knows that is a joke of a site.
I just want to know who to take at 4 over a need position and the top T at this time in the draft if we cannot move back? and dont say rg3. if your going to convince me that we shouldn't take a tackly dont name a qb that i dont want, show me someone worthy of that pick that i can agree with, otherwise as far as i am concerned kalil is the pick.
Also btw 85% of the 1st round tackles play rt first, very few step in at left tackle and go, andre smith, bryan bulaga, jason smith, Anthony davis, Michael oher, jeff otah, all first round picks that play RT, and gallery plays guard, he couldn't make it at either tackle. so its more then just bulaga.
cbbacker said:
Absolutely no argument here, the raiders got veldheer in round 2, chargers mcneil in round 2, i gotcha, i know it can happen, i am sure someone can find later round picks that have excelled. But if we cannot fill wr, what position you think we should take? i dont have faith in rg3, if we cannot take blackmon i hope we trade down, but if we cant who do we take? coples? hes even more hit or miss then kalil, claiborne? yea i think that could work. but how many teams take 2 top 10 corners, i say go for it, but most teams wouldnt dream of it, who else is left? i cannot see reaching for someone that can be had later, and pass on kalil.
please dont talk about walter football, everyone knows that is a joke of a site.
I just want to know who to take at 4 over a need position and the top T at this time in the draft if we cannot move back? and dont say rg3. if your going to convince me that we shouldn't take a tackly dont name a qb that i dont want, show me someone worthy of that pick that i can agree with, otherwise as far as i am concerned kalil is the pick.
Also btw 85% of the 1st round tackles play rt first, very few step in at left tackle and go, andre smith, bryan bulaga, jason smith, Anthony davis, Michael oher, jeff otah, all first round picks that play RT, and gallery plays guard, he couldn't make it at either tackle. so its more then just bulaga.
OK, got ya. If we can't trade out of the pick and Blackmon and RG III are gone (BTW, my current thinking is IF Griffin falls to #4 we're taking him without a second thought)I'll take Claiborne over Kalil- as I said- we can still get a RT in the second (or even third) round, or maybe do a reach and draft Keuchly.
And hell no on Couples. He's great- when he feels like it.
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cbbacker said:
Absolutely no argument here, the raiders got veldheer in round 2, chargers mcneil in round 2, i gotcha, i know it can happen, i am sure someone can find later round picks that have excelled. But if we cannot fill wr, what position you think we should take? i dont have faith in rg3, if we cannot take blackmon i hope we trade down, but if we cant who do we take? coples? hes even more hit or miss then kalil, claiborne? yea i think that could work. but how many teams take 2 top 10 corners, i say go for it, but most teams wouldnt dream of it, who else is left? i cannot see reaching for someone that can be had later, and pass on kalil.
please dont talk about walter football, everyone knows that is a joke of a site.
I just want to know who to take at 4 over a need position and the top T at this time in the draft if we cannot move back? and dont say rg3. if your going to convince me that we shouldn't take a tackly dont name a qb that i dont want, show me someone worthy of that pick that i can agree with, otherwise as far as i am concerned kalil is the pick.
Also btw 85% of the 1st round tackles play rt first, very few step in at left tackle and go, andre smith, bryan bulaga, jason smith, Anthony davis, Michael oher, jeff otah, all first round picks that play RT, and gallery plays guard, he couldn't make it at either tackle. so its more then just bulaga.
OK, got ya. If we can't trade out of the pick and Blackmon and RG III are gone (BTW, my current thinking is IF Griffin falls to #4 we're taking him without a second thought)I'll take Claiborne over Kalil- as I said- we can still get a RT in the second (or even third) round, or maybe do a reach and draft Keuchly.
And hell no on Couples. He's great- when he feels like it.
OK, got ya. If we can't trade out of the pick and Blackmon and RG III are gone (BTW, my current thinking is IF Griffin falls to #4 we're taking him without a second thought)I'll take Claiborne over Kalil- as I said- we can still get a RT in the second (or even third) round, or maybe do a reach and draft Keuchly.
And hell no on Couples. He's great- when he feels like it.
lol its prolly just me, but man i would just like to put our right side to bed, not have to worry about it for 15 years. i think kalil does that, yea a 2nd or 3rd round guy might as well, but its less likely. if it was up to me, i would just finish it and hopefully be done.
nothing would help our team more then good line play, on both sides of the ball.
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OK, got ya. If we can't trade out of the pick and Blackmon and RG III are gone (BTW, my current thinking is IF Griffin falls to #4 we're taking him without a second thought)I'll take Claiborne over Kalil- as I said- we can still get a RT in the second (or even third) round, or maybe do a reach and draft Keuchly.
And hell no on Couples. He's great- when he feels like it.
lol its prolly just me, but man i would just like to put our right side to bed, not have to worry about it for 15 years. i think kalil does that, yea a 2nd or 3rd round guy might as well, but its less likely. if it was up to me, i would just finish it and hopefully be done.
nothing would help our team more then good line play, on both sides of the ball.
cbbacker said:
lol its prolly just me, but man i would just like to put our right side to bed, not have to worry about it for 15 years. i think kalil does that, yea a 2nd or 3rd round guy might as well, but its less likely. if it was up to me, i would just finish it and hopefully be done.
nothing would help our team more then good line play, on both sides of the ball.
I see youre point about getting an absolute stud at RT and extremely helping both pass and run offense, and I think it might be a good idea if there are serious questions about the playmakers that are also available there. Also, as someone mentioned, with the rookie pay scale, money isnt really the issue with a top 5 pick anymore, esp because we have plenty of cap room.
But, I think you are missing how Kalil feels about this. Yea we will have a great RT for 4 years or however long rookie contracts are (I think 4 years), but when that contract is up, Kalil will probably not be happy about playing RT instead of LT for the past 4 years. Its like having a legit closer in baseball playing set up in the bullpen. So, either we will piss off Kalil and he will become a cancer, or leave after 4 years to play LT or want LT money in his next contract, which as we've seen with Thomas, is real real money that hits the cap hard. So considering realistically we still have a couple more years until we are a perennial playoff contender in our division, I dont see it being worth taking Kalil for the semi short term.. Thats coming straight from the dome, but does that make sense?
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cbbacker said:
lol its prolly just me, but man i would just like to put our right side to bed, not have to worry about it for 15 years. i think kalil does that, yea a 2nd or 3rd round guy might as well, but its less likely. if it was up to me, i would just finish it and hopefully be done.
nothing would help our team more then good line play, on both sides of the ball.
I see youre point about getting an absolute stud at RT and extremely helping both pass and run offense, and I think it might be a good idea if there are serious questions about the playmakers that are also available there. Also, as someone mentioned, with the rookie pay scale, money isnt really the issue with a top 5 pick anymore, esp because we have plenty of cap room.
But, I think you are missing how Kalil feels about this. Yea we will have a great RT for 4 years or however long rookie contracts are (I think 4 years), but when that contract is up, Kalil will probably not be happy about playing RT instead of LT for the past 4 years. Its like having a legit closer in baseball playing set up in the bullpen. So, either we will piss off Kalil and he will become a cancer, or leave after 4 years to play LT or want LT money in his next contract, which as we've seen with Thomas, is real real money that hits the cap hard. So considering realistically we still have a couple more years until we are a perennial playoff contender in our division, I dont see it being worth taking Kalil for the semi short term.. Thats coming straight from the dome, but does that make sense?
I see youre point about getting an absolute stud at RT and extremely helping both pass and run offense, and I think it might be a good idea if there are serious questions about the playmakers that are also available there. Also, as someone mentioned, with the rookie pay scale, money isnt really the issue with a top 5 pick anymore, esp because we have plenty of cap room.
But, I think you are missing how Kalil feels about this. Yea we will have a great RT for 4 years or however long rookie contracts are (I think 4 years), but when that contract is up, Kalil will probably not be happy about playing RT instead of LT for the past 4 years. Its like having a legit closer in baseball playing set up in the bullpen. So, either we will piss off Kalil and he will become a cancer, or leave after 4 years to play LT or want LT money in his next contract, which as we've seen with Thomas, is real real money that hits the cap hard. So considering realistically we still have a couple more years until we are a perennial playoff contender in our division, I dont see it being worth taking Kalil for the semi short term.. Thats coming straight from the dome, but does that make sense?
you know this is a good point, something i didnt consider. I would like to give the benefit of the doubt to the player that he will accept whatever role helps the team win, but sadly that might not be the case. I would assume they clear that with him prior to drafting, but he could just be saying that to get drafted no.4. we would have our franchise tag, and honestly if he is a pro bowl caliber player i would pay him LT money, i cannot imagine he would want LT money if he is just a solid RT. but who knows anything is possible. I personally would still chance it though. there is always the chance to trade him if he is a stud and acts like that, i am sure someone will pay a premium for a star RT that can play LT in the nfl. But your right, its a possiblity he turns out like you said.
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AHA!!! I said DRAFTING ability, didn't I? (NOT trades/cuts). The Browns DRAFTED all but ONE of the players you mentioned. That one player, Len Dawson, was drafted by the Steelers, traded to the Browns, cut, & didn't hook on until the old AFL's Dallas Texans signed him.
Back in those days, the Browns scouting & evaluation of College talent was absolutely top drawer as evidenced by those & more draft picks of that era. Their record of KEEPING many of those picks was not on that same high level, but we also had very deep & talented rosters back then, so if players didn't immediately excel, they were gone. I still recall how upset I was when they traded Bobby Mitchell for the draft rights to Ernie Davis of Syracuse (not coincidentally, Jimmy Brown's school). This broke up what I believe was the greatest RB tandem in NFL history (Jim Brown & Bobby Mitchell). The closest TANDEMS to them (playing at the same time) were the Colt's Lenny Moore/Alan Ameche & the Packer's Paul Hornung/Jim Taylor. Sadly, Ernie Davis contracted Leukemia which took his life quickly & Bobby is, of course, in the HOF today as a WR.
The difference today is that our current Browns don't have the depth or talent on today's roster to have to make difficult decisions. As we draft solid talent, it is an immediate upgrade & we will not be sending future HOFers out the door. These were different situations. Look at New England. They have had so much talent that they have also cut or traded away talent most teams would die for. At every level of success or lack of same, there are hard personnel decisions to be made. I'll continue to trust Heckert et al.
Mike
Of course, recall that upon trading Mitchell the Browns drafted Leroy Kelley. He and JB were on the same team together for 2 years, '64 and '65
Of course, recall that upon trading Mitchell the Browns drafted Leroy Kelley. He and JB were on the same team together for 2 years, '64 and '65
Interesting that Kelly was a punt returner & backup with Jim Brown & Ernie Green the starters until Brown retired. That's when Kelly took over. Those old Brown's Teams were like a production line for great running backs.
Mike
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Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright, Chase Minnifield and a RT should be a significant draft. We should also resign Hillis. With Hillis and Richardson in the backfield we would be set at Runningback. Hillis could come in as a FB and a split time at HB. Wright would be the wideout that stretches the field and Minnifield would be the corner that allows our secondary to get to the next level. A right tackle that can shore up the rightside of the OL would give Colt the time he needs to find an open receiver also allowing the runningback to have lanes to run through... this would be an ideal situation!
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