Taylor Mays & Clay Matthews

Sony Reed

@flugel said:
Aloy,
You are just MONEY!

About your concerns of Matthews OVER Curry. I'm stating I want Mays over Curry with Matthews becoming the 2nd round compensation for the LBer position. We don't know that Matthews can't play ILBer. Matthews is allegedly projected for round 2 but here's a kid that's just STARTING to show people what he can do. We're seeing upside and the reality that there's more to come. That right there pretty much explains why Clay stoled the show from the other LBers yesterday. There's no way anyone leaves that game with the impression that Clay Matthews isn't their best LBer right now as opposed to 7-10 weeks ago. We've made alot mistakes when we've contemplated upside vrs best football already played.

Clay's FATHER, self-described as being less athletic than his son, was awesome enough to play inside AND Outside LBer for us during his long tenure here. His kid will be the same way because he's a big boy with better foot speed than dad.

On Clay's final hit on the QB yesterday, didn't they line him up at ILBer? I thought I saw him standing up at the G-C gap and he just shot right through it. He's got that quickness that's innate. He'll be 3rd generation of pro football player in the bloodlines. While I LIKED every highlight I saw on Curry and I now like him better than Rey - I STILL think getting Mays in round 1 with Matthews in round 2 realy improves the footspeed lacking on our defense at this time. You can do so much more with creativity when you got speed like that in your lineup. Pittsburgh's defense in 2007 wasn't anything like it was in 2008 and the biggest difference? Polly is healthy and Dick LeBeau has alot of fun. That said, look how Baltimore can have fun with a guy like Ed Reed.

If you were told to pick a LBer for us after the game yesterday and your choices were: Lauranitis, Curry, Rey, Cushing or Matthews - who would you pick? My fondness for Curry is off a collection of his greatest plays. I'm impressed but who watches Wake Forrest play football very often? Can Curry takeover a game like Matthews did against a much better opponent than Navy? I'm REALLY starting to dig the idea of Mays in round 1 and Matthews in round 2 if doable. Our defense lacks footspeed, which shows up in so many different ways. These 2 kids bring us 4.2s and 4.5s, which is ideal for both positions of need on our roster. For example, how about a blitz that touches the passer BEFORE he throws the ball? We used to have those when we looked to USC for it.

- Tom F.

Flugs, I have been saying for the past month if the Browns go DEFENSE they need to get a playmaker, we need our Troy Palamalu and the guy in this draft that would help the Browns the most is Taylor Mays, this guy is a game changing type player and what I call a PLAYMAKER, the guy that makes the big plays at crunch time.

I have seen plenty of Curry and he is a very good player, but Curry reminds me so much of Derrick Johnson linebacker with the Chiefs who everyone was predicting great things for a few years ago and he is a good LB but nothing great, don't forget all the hype about A.J. Hawk just a few years ago, and Hawk has done nothing in Green Bay based on where he was drafted.

Flugs, this team needs a dominant pass rusher and looking at the linebackers only Rey Rey and Mathews Jr. stand out as pass rushing linebackers, so I agree with you if we could get a Taylor Mays in round 1 and mathews in round 2 that would be the best for the Browns we get a playmaking safety and pass rusher LB..

FYI, here is a list of linebackers taken in round 1 the past 3 years...2008- Keith Rivers, Jerod Mayo, 2007- Patrick Willis, Lawrence Timmons, Jon Beason ( Great 1st rd for LB's) ...2006- A.J. Hawk, Ernie Sims, Kamerion Wimbley

The Browns must get this pick right

? Aloysius

@sony-reed said:
I have seen plenty of Curry and he is a very good player, but Curry reminds me so much of Derrick Johnson linebacker with the Chiefs who everyone was predicting great things for a few years ago and he is a good LB but nothing great, don't forget all the hype about A.J. Hawk just a few years ago, and Hawk has done nothing in Green Bay based on where he was drafted.

Which games did you watch? Just curious.

Sony Reed

Aloysius said:
Which games did you watch? Just curious.

I saw him in the games against Clemson, Duke, N.C. State and Boston College, so I feel I have got a good read on him

The guy is good but I just don't see him as the type of LB to take over games

Kinda like when Derrick Johnson was getting all the hype at Texas

I feel we need a dominant edge rusher and Curry will not be that type of player

? Aloysius

Didn't see the Duke or NC State games, but I though he was very impressive in the Clemson game. Even in the BC game, considered his "worst" game of the year, he had a TFL & knocked BC's starting QB out of the game.

Agreed about him not being a dominant edge rusher, but that's not what we'd be drafting him for. Nor is Maualuga - I'm not sure why you mentioned him as being a "dominant pass rusher".

We definitely have a hole at ILB that needs to be filled. Maybe we do it in FA, but Curry's the guy if we want to grab one in the draft.

JewDago

someone we've been forgetting is leroy hill, currently in seattle. he's a free agent and could be on the move. though he's played outside in seattle, because they play a 4-3, the concepts of flowing to the balllcarrier and stopping the run are essentially the same if we move him inside, something he's got the speed and strength to do.

the only concern is that he's listed only at 238 on his team's site, meaning he's definitely less than that. however, he's a hard hitter who could shed blocks and make plays in the backfield; he had 7 TFL this year.

one concern about him is that he's not much in pass coverage as he has no career picks and only eleven passes defensed in a four-year career.

another is that he's coming off a neck injury that kept him out of the last four games of the year, but that could work out in our favor.

? Aloysius

Don't see Hill playing in a 3-4, JD. You're right about his size being an issue: he weighed in at 229 lbs. at the Combine a few years ago. And here's some of his college scouting report:

If only he could find a way to generate that weight room strength on the field. While he has a strong hand jolt, usage and placement have been his problems. He fails to use his hands to keep blockers off his feet and because he is constantly trying to escape the bigger blockers, he leaves his chest too exposed, resulting in him getting stonewalled on the inside plays.

He has decent instincts, but appears to regret attempting to work in-line to stuff the running game. He struggles too much to shed and has marginal control at the point of attack. On the move, he has the straight-line speed to give chase, string plays wide and make the tackle along the sidelines. He takes better angles in the open than he does at the line, but has little bulk to consistently fight through the trash.

If we switch to a 4-3, he'd be at the top of my list of potential FA targets. I'd be particularly interested in having a coach try to get him back to the 7.5 sack total he notched his rookie season. But if we stick to a 3-4, I don't think he'll be in our plans.

? Aloysius

Here are some guys who could be 3-4 ILB targets:

Ray Lewis
- 6'1", 250 lbs., Age: 33
- '08 Stats: 117 TT, 85 solo, 3.5 sacks, 3 INT
- Can't see Baltimore lettting this guy go
Bart Scott
- 6'2", 240 lbs., Age: 28
- '08 Stats: 82 TT, 61 solo, 1.5 sacks, 0 INT
- Versatile defender plays Mike in Baltimore's 3-4 alignment, but he's physical enough to move over to Ted. Also doubtful that Baltimore lets Scott go, but you never know...
Karlos Dansby
- 6'4", 250 lbs., Age: 27
- '08 Stats: 119 TT, 95 solo, 4.0 sacks, 2 INT
- May get the biggest contract of all these guys, based on his relative youth & ability stopping the run (9 TFL) and pass-rush ability (8 sacks in '06). If recent reports of us being close to cap hell are true, then it's likely that Dansby will be too expensive for our tastes.
Channing Crowder
- 6'2", 259 lbs., Age: 25
- '08 Stats: 113 TT, 92 solo, 0 sacks, 0 INT
- May actually be the best fit for our defense, but character and chronic knee issues may keep him out of a Browns uniform.
Eric Barton
- 6'2", 245 lbs., Age: 31
- '08 Stats: 119 TT, 93 solo, 1.5 sacks, 0 INT
- The Jets' Ted backer had a big year playing behind Kris Jenkins. If we go with Mangini as HC, the chances of Barton playing for us next year go way up.
Mike Peterson
- 6'1", 238 lbs., Age: 32
- '08 Stats: 84 TT, 70 solo, 1.0 sacks, 0 INT
- Peterson has clashed with HC Jack Del Rio, which means he won't be returning to Jacksonville next year. His size and past durability issues may seem to make him a poor fit for 3-4 ILB, but I could see him having a Takeo Spikes-esque resurrection as a 3-4 ILB.

And if we switch to a 4-3 defense (which appears unlikely), these guys could be decent 4-3 OLB options:

Leroy Hill
- 6'1", 238 lbs., Age: 26
- '08 Stats: 84 TT, 64 solo, 1.0 sacks, 0 INT
- Read what JewDago posted above
Angelo Crowell
- 6'1", 246 lbs., Age: 27
- '07 Stats: 126 TT, 86 solo, 2.0 sacks, 1 INT
- Crowell appeared to be a burgeoning star before the '08 season, but ended up sidelined for the year with a knee injury. Should be available for relatively cheap. He may even have some value if we stick to the 3-4, based on his size and experience playing in Al Groh's 3-4 at Virginia.
Michael Boley
- 6'3", 223 lbs., Age: 26
- '08 Stats: 73 TT, 63 solo, 0.0 sacks, 1 INT
- Boley had a down year and ended up getting benched on run-downs, which will kill his FA value. But those issues may be explained by an early-season neck strain, so he may be able to return to his '07 form (109 TT, 93 solo, 3.0 sacks). Could be worth a minor gamble.

Flugel

Aloysius said:
Didn't see the Duke or NC State games, but I though he was very impressive in the Clemson game. Even in the BC game, considered his "worst" game of the year, he had a TFL & knocked BC's starting QB out of the game.
Agreed about him not being a dominant edge rusher, but that's not what we'd be drafting him for. Nor is Maualuga - I'm not sure why you mentioned him as being a "dominant pass rusher".

We definitely have a hole at ILB that needs to be filled. Maybe we do it in FA, but Curry's the guy if we want to grab one in the draft.

We're replacing Willie I assume if we're going OLBer. In the 3-4, you want both OLBers to have pass rushing ability. In the Buffalo Game - Wimbley had an INT dropping back into a zone coverage right? He wasn't pass rushing that play so we might have had Willie on the other side doing that. When LT played for the Giants, it wasn't like Carl Banks wasn't ever putting QBs out of football games. Some of LT's best highlights are of him intercepting passes in coverage and returning INTs 92 yards for scores. LT could fly so he rushed the passer MORE than Carl Banks but it will be part of the job description we would hope. I remembered BB saying it took Carl Banks about 2.5 years to really GET the 3-4 but when he finally did - he became as good as it gets.

Therefore, Aloy brings up a good point that he's seen Curry getting to the QB when that was asked of him. He's STILL a very attractive pick for us too. He could be a Carl Banks type and that wouldn't suck. With that, comes the understanding of the complexities and what that might mean for sudden impact of newcomers.

It's fun to consider all the possibilities because if we get too close minded in this thing to need alone - what do they say about going for need in round 1? You'd never draft a Jon Stewart if you already have a DeAngelo Williams right? And who thought the Giants were nuckin futs for going for Mathias Kiwanuka in round 1 when they already had Strahan and Youmeanbastidge?

Some of my favorite players on this team 2 years may not have the upside we think they have (Sean Jones and YES Kellen Winslow). Who gets more penalties for pushing off these days than KW? The mere fact that he always needs to make a circus catch in traffic is because the only things he has left are great hands and strength. KW is also limited in his ability to help us set the edge so we're pretty predictable when he's in and when he's out. Someone like Pioli can wheel and deal Winslow for his name alone and who he WAS. Right now, we have a guy that's been through at least 3 knee surgeries and a couple staph infections. Sometimes I fall victim to seeing Winslow giving Ohio State matchup nightmares and wished his knees were that young again. They're not though. We need upside because we're currently getting smoked with too many gusy that already played their best football. That's why I'm excited about Pioli and nervous that's not a done deal yet.

What I liked most about Mays and Matthews is they shined in the most important game against the best team they played. Isn't that what you want - guys without stage fright? We've got alot of good dress rehearsal guys but we're not making the BIG plays on either side of the ball. The difference between us and the Colts wasn't Peyton Manning. It was what team was capable of scoring on defense. Does this usually reward the slower foot speed or the guys that get there first? We know this answer because we're longing for it. This isn't a knock on Curry because he looks like he plays real fast.

Let me pose this question for some additional fun. Right now I put Mays and Matthews as the 1-2 I'd like. I ALSO like Curry so what would we do in round 2 if we got Curry in round 1? I ask this because I'm not nearly as informed as some of our draft gurus in here so let's have some fun with this. AND there's some that like Beanie in round 1 so what's your guy in round 2?

- Tom F.

Sony Reed

Aloysius said:
Didn't see the Duke or NC State games, but I though he was very impressive in the Clemson game. Even in the BC game, considered his "worst" game of the year, he had a TFL & knocked BC's starting QB out of the game.
Agreed about him not being a dominant edge rusher, but that's not what we'd be drafting him for. Nor is Maualuga - I'm not sure why you mentioned him as being a "dominant pass rusher".

We definitely have a hole at ILB that needs to be filled. Maybe we do it in FA, but Curry's the guy if we want to grab one in the draft.

Curry was awesome in the Clemson game you are correct, its just my opinion but I believe the Browns need a pass rusher from the LB position greater than the need for a run stopper, sort of like when a few years ago we had to choose between Ngata the run stopper and Wimbley the pass rusher and we all know how that decision turned out. I just would prefer a pass rusher, as Flugs mentioned you look at the Ravens and Steelers and you have to account for Ed Reed and troy Palamalu but with our defense we have nobody other than Rogers that the opposing offenses have to account for which is why I would prefer a pass rusher or Taylor Mays and boy does this defense need some speed its very slow.

I believe if you look at Rey Maualuga you will see a great blitzer when he blitzes something none our our inside linebackers are good at, many people want to say Rey did nothing in the Penn St. game but if you go back and watch the game you will notice that Penn St. had 2 guys going after Rey play after play which opened things up for Mathews and Cushing, you may say Rey's sacks were down this year but part of that is he did not blitz has much this season and when USC blitzed a LB it was Mathews more than Rey.

Like I have said I believe Curry will be a very solid player but I just don't see GREAT when I look at Curry, I don't see the type of player you have to game plan and take away.

Just take a look at the teams that made the playoffs and they all have that guy, Ravens have Reed and Lewis, Dolphins have Joey Porter and Mark Roth, Chargers have Phillips, Colts have Bo Sanders, Dwight Feeney and Mathis, Steelers have Troy, Harrison and Woodley these are guys that you always have to account for.

Ask yourself this question who would have more IMPACT on our defense a run stuffing inside LB or a fast hard hitting safety or a pass rusher off the edge, and if you look on the offensive side is it a running back or wide receiver or right tackle?

Is there a free agent inside linebacker you can get for less than what it will cost a #5 pick in the draft?

We have to get a playmaker with this pick.

JewDago

those free agents are quite unattractive. bart scott is gonna suck outside of baltimore's d. there's no way we should go after him. the only two 3-4 guys on that list i'd want are dansby and crowder, but neither of those seems likely.

i think our cap number might include the roster bonuses that phil signed for guys like DA, corey williams and stallworth, the kind of stuff that won't be on the books if the guys are gone.

i think moving angelo crowell back inside, which he hasn't played since college, seems like the best option for us. he's coming off an injury, which will diminish his cost, and has experience in the 3-4, despite the fact that it was in college.

and damn leroy hill for being soft.

? Aloysius

From reading some stuff from the Miami press, it seems increasingly likely that the Dolphins will re-sign Crowder. When he didn't play in Week 16, the Dolphins gave up 8.6 yards per carry to the Chiefs - a sign how important he is to their defense.

And they may need to upgrade at the other ILB spot (Akin Ayodele is slow & not a playmaker - kind of like Andra Davis). If that's the case, it may be too much to ask their scouts to find two starting-caliber ILB's in the draft.

I agree with you that Dansby would be an intriguing, though unlikely option. Not sure we could afford him, but signing Terrell Suggs & drafting Curry/Mays would be my preferred option.

If we don't have the money for that, we probably could get by with something like Bertrand Berry or Greg Ellis (if he gets cut).

Though I agree with Flugel & Sony that we desperately need a pass-rusher, I'm not sure there's a 3-4 OLB in the draft who warrants top five consideration. Orakpo could be that guy, but I'm not convinced.