John Derbyshire

Chicopee John

>>I can't remember anything like it. You'd have to go back to Jimmy the Greek, and even that wasn't this odd.>>

For the sake of conversation, Heck, help me remember what Jimmy 'The Greek' Snyder said that got him in such hot water. It's been a while.

Was what he said true or untrue?

Was it the time, context, contnet, etc.?

Between he and Al Campanis, I'd advise you to stay away from drunk Greeks.

heckofajobbrownie

I can't. Their food is too good. And I like drunks.

heckofajobbrownie

@westside-steve said:

Does he state that any of the characteristics mentioned are due soley to race?

If not, per our definition, the answer would be no.

WSS

...Ah, did you read the whole column? Maybe you need to read it again.

Chicopee John

>> I can't. Their food is too good. And I like drunks.>>

I'm a member of both clubs, LOL

heckofajobbrownie

Might be my favorite cuisine. Plus, I love a people who end a meal with a shot.

Westside Steve

I believe the Greeks sin was speaking of the slavery days when the largest male and the largest females were bred for a large strong offspring. The exact same thing Ali and joe Frazier discussed on a panel.

WSS

heckofajobbrownie

The point wasn't that what he was saying wasn't true to some extent - owners did find strong partners to breed stronger slave offspring - but that he used that to explain why he thought black athletes are superior to whites, and saying it was because of slavery.

It was old man racism - not necessarily ill-intentioned, but not exactly the type of thing you want to be opining on if it's not exactly your field.

Derbyshire's column is far, far worse than what Jimmy the Greek said, and far less defensible.

Chicopee John

>>I believe the Greeks sin was speaking of the slavery days when the largest male and the largest females were bred for a large strong offspring. The exact same thing Ali and joe Frazier discussed on a panel.>>

That's why I asked if what Snyder said was true or not?

Kind of like the scene in Mandingo when Ken Norton was 'measured for success'.

Ali called Smokin' Joe a 'gorilla' and lots and lots of people thought it was hillarious. Of course, his Contientious Objector status washed him of all his sins in many eyes.

Westside Steve

@heckofajobbrownie said:

The point wasn't that what he was saying wasn't true to some extent - owners did find strong partners to breed stronger slave offspring - but that he used that to explain why he thought black athletes are superior to whites, and saying it was because of slavery.

It was old man racism - not necessarily ill-intentioned, but not exactly the type of thing you want to be opining on if it's not exactly your field.

Derbyshire's column is far, far worse than what Jimmy the Greek said, and far less defensible.

So Ali is a racist too. Great.

Seems like everybody is except you huh?

WSS

heckofajobbrownie

@westside-steve said:

So Ali is a racist too. Great.

Seems like everybody is except you huh?

WSS

You've finally understood my point!

Delightful.

Westside Steve

Here is something I would take issue with.

If we are using IQ as a basis of intelligence I would not say vastly.

I recal a study years ago that found slight differences among the races.

WSS

MLD Woody

Any time something good happens to black people because they are black, that's racist

Any time something bad happens to black people because they are black, that's not racist

Any time a white person gets in trouble for talking about blacks, they are not racist but everyone else is

I agree with the elderly on this board. BLACK PEOPLE ARE SCARY!

heckofajobbrownie

Steve, do you think the Derbyshire column espouses racist beliefs?

Westside Steve

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Steve, do you think the Derbyshire column espouses racist beliefs?

Like I said.

I do not believe that race is solely responsible in the slight iq differences.

I do think it's wise to be cautious in general in the situations he describes.

And if woody wouldn't be nervous in downtown detroit, hough or the south bronx he's an idiot.

And maybe you are right. Maybe it's just the lack of funding for social programs that causes the problem.

Nonetheless the problem exists.

And braying the word racism over and over and over hasn't seemed to help yet.

Neither has pretending it doesn't happen.

Neither has over reacting to every situation like the martin case.

WSS

Westside Steve

As a group, there is a higher percentage of black people who are successful american professional athletes than white.

Is that a racist statement or not?

WSS

VaporTrail

@westside-steve said:

So basically you agree with those things but don't like the way they were stated?

Stay away from large group who perceive you as different?

Are you okay with stay out of neighborhoods inhabited mostly by people that don't look like you?

In other words this is a style issue for you.

Also it's not racist to warn white people to stay out of Hawaii after dark, right?

Just wanted to be politically correct you know.

WSS

I agree with some of the things, yes. Staying away from large groups of people that I am different from, is absolutely one I would take to heart. Is that racist? A little bit. But whatever, who isn't that racist to this degree? What separates most people from this guy, however, is that he goes 10 steps further and makes it a point to mention the ways blacks are inferior to whites.

And guess what!

VaporTrail

@westside-steve said:

Here is something I would take issue with.

If we are using IQ as a basis of intelligence I would not say vastly.

I recal a study years ago that found slight differences among the races.

WSS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

There is a shit ton of information there to read on. Careful when they refer to books though. Books =/= Science.

Check out the results of scientific studies as well in the genetics and IQ section. Again, be wary of the results as the tables presented are from single papers. There's no consensus on whether or not genetics affects intelligence. I would think that it would have some effect, but I doubt there'd be a significant difference between people of differing ethnic backgrounds due just to genetics. There are just wayyyyyyy too many confounding factors, especially the brain. How the hell do you separate what is caused by genetics from what is caused by environment? Plus, we don't even know what genes make people intelligent. There are decades of work to be done before we have a real grasp of what's going on.

DieHardBrownsFan

@mld-woody said:

Any time something good happens to black people because they are black, that's racist

Any time something bad happens to black people because they are black, that's not racist

Any time a white person gets in trouble for talking about blacks, they are not racist but everyone else is

I agree with the elderly on this board. BLACK PEOPLE ARE SCARY!

Children should be seen and not heard. Go to bed.

heckofajobbrownie

@westside-steve said:

Like I said.

I do not believe that race is solely responsible in the slight iq differences.

I do think it's wise to be cautious in general in the situations he describes.

WSS

But that's not what the column is saying, or why it's being described as racist.

I was just wondering how explicitly someone would have to say, "Blacks are inferior to whites and you should avoid them, especially in numbers" before you would call it racist. Apparently, this isn't explicit enough.

Perhaps I'll post all the responses from his co-workers at the National Review since you can't take it from me without pretending this is about social programs, or whatever else.

heckofajobbrownie

@westside-steve said:

As a group, there is a higher percentage of black people who are successful american professional athletes than white.

Is that a racist statement or not?

WSS

No.

I'd also think it may not even be true. You'd have some sports where it was, but looking at, say, hockey or lacrosse or swimming or ice skating or skiing or tennis wouldn't give you the same picture.