The Greatest Team In History. The Final Four
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Matchup Highlight: 1948 Browns vs. 1978 Steelers
Someone said to "get real" about this matchup. OK, lets get real. Here is what you had:
Coaches: Paul Brown vs. Chuck Noll Both in the Hall of Fame, but need it be said that PB was Noll's coaching mentor, and he played for PB on the Browns? But not in 1948. He didn't come in the league as a player til 1953. But on that 1948 roster were: Ara Parseghian, Alex Agase, Lou Rymkus, Lou Saban, Ed Ulinski and George Young, who all went on to become outstanding coaches/execs. This may have been the most "football smart" team in history if nothing else.
Edge: Browns
Quarterback: Otto Graham and Terry Bradshaw. Both Hall of Famers, but with different styles.
Edge: fairly even, but I think Graham slightly. The ultimate winner.
Running Backs Steelers had Franco Harris a primary RB, and Rocky Bleier as backup. Browns had Marion Motley a primary RB and Edgar Jones and Dub Jones as backups.
Advantage: Browns. Motley was the tougher runner, no doubt. Jones and Jones were about even with Bleier as backups
Receiving corps Browns had HOF Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie and Horace Gillom with Dub Jones as a combination halfback/end. Steelers have John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, and Bennie Cunningham at TE.
Edge: Steelers, slightly
Offensive Line: Browns had HOFers OT Lou Groza and C Frank Gatski, plus Ulinski, Rymkus and Bob Gaudio. Steelers had HOFer Mike Webster and Steve Courson
Edge: Browns
Defensive Backfield: Browns had Cliff Lewis (9 ints), Lou Saban, Tommy James, and Warren Lahr. Steelers had Mel Blount and Donnie Shell and Tony Dungy
Edge: even or slightly to the Steelers
Linebackers: Steelers had HOFers Jack Lambert and Jack Ham and Dennis Winston (Andy Russell had retired by '78). Browns had a decent corps with Tony Adamle, Lin Houston, and Alex Agase
Edge: clearly to the Steelers
Defensive Line. Steelers had HOFer Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood and Dwight White. Browns Had HOFers Bill Willis and Len Ford, George Young and a 300 pounder named Chubby Griggs (which was highly unusual for that day)
Edge: Even or slightly to the Browns
Special teams. Browns kicker was HOFer Lou Groza. As kick returner they used Dub Jones who once scored 6 TDs in a game. Punter was Tom Collela, a decent, not great punter.
Steelers kicker was Roy Gerela, Craig Colquitt was the punter, primary KR was Larry Anderson.
Edge: Groza and Jones give Browns clear edge.
The AAFL '48 Browns (and their legacy NFL teams were THE dominant force of the late 40's through mid-50's and consistent contenders into the 60's.
The Steelers were THE dynasty of the 70's and have been competitive ever since.
Matching up teams separated by one decade can be difficult, let alone those separated by three. The skill positions of these two great teams actually compare quite well. The difference I run into every time I try to stack up two different eras are the lines.
The size and athleticism of the '78 Steelers' OL and DL (or Browns or Oilers or any '78 team) are so superior that I can't get past it. With the possible exception of Steve Furness every Steeler defensive starter was probably faster than Marion Motley.
Atop that add the advances in the game schemes over the 30 years that gap these teams. As revolutionary as Paul Brown was the complexity increases on both sides of the ball, but especially on defense, were enormous.
With that knowledge how can anyone possibly choose the Browns???
Anyway it's a good exercise, so in that spirit here is my blow-by-blow defense of the '78 Steelers...
Matchup Highlight: 1948 Browns vs. 1978 Steelers
Someone said to "get real" about this matchup. OK, lets get real. Here is what you had:
I said it... no reason to pussy foot around. I can take it.
Coaches: Paul Brown vs. Chuck Noll Both in the Hall of Fame, but need it be said that PB was Noll's coaching mentor, and he played for PB on the Browns? But not in 1948. He didn't come in the league as a player til 1953. But on that 1948 roster were: Ara Parseghian, Alex Agase, Lou Rymkus, Lou Saban, Ed Ulinski and George Young, who all went on to become outstanding coaches/execs. This may have been the most "football smart" team in history if nothing else.
Edge: Browns
Yup, agree.. in spite of Lou Rymkus' inclusion... Lou was a total disaster as the AFL Oilers' HC...
PB loved smart players, but Paseghian (rookie), Alex Agase (1 year), Lou Saban(2), Ed Ulinski (2) and George Young (2) were all very early in their careers and probably had not fully developed their football intellects.
But in fairness Noll had a near completely reshuffled '78 staff due to Bud Carson's tortured departure.
Quarterback: Otto Graham and Terry Bradshaw. Both Hall of Famers, but with different styles.
Edge: fairly even, but I think Graham slightly. The ultimate winner.
Agree with even a greater edge to Otto for his running ability which was outstanding in his early years.
Running Backs Steelers had Franco Harris a primary RB, and Rocky Bleier as backup. Browns had Marion Motley a primary RB and Edgar Jones and Dub Jones as backups.
Advantage: Browns. Motley was the tougher runner, no doubt. Jones and Jones were about even with Bleier as backups
Disagree... I'd peg this at even.
Motley was tough, but would be more suited to OG in the '78 NFL. He was bruising with modest speed by '78 standards. Dub was an excellent swing man and a dangerous receiver.
Franco was a shifty, patient runner with size (at 6'2" 230 he's roughly the same size as Marion) and more speed than you'd think. Rocky was the type of runner PB would wish he had. Both could run, catch and block.
Receiving corps Browns had HOF Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie and Horace Gillom with Dub Jones as a combination halfback/end. Steelers have John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, and Bennie Cunningham at TE.
Edge: Steelers, slightly
Agree... much closer than one might initially think. YAC wasn't a '48 stat, but had it been, I've little doubt the Browns' corps would have dominated it. Lavelli was the runt at 6' 190. Speedie was 6'3" 203
Offensive Line: Browns had HOFers LT Lou Groza and C Frank Gatski, plus Ulinski (LG), Rymkus (RT)and Bob Gaudio (RG). Steelers had HOFer Mike Webster and Steve Courson
Edge: Browns
Groza was a fine LT and it was his line play as much or more than his kicking that got him onto the Hall, but... that Browns' line averaged just under 6'2" and just over 233 pounds...
I rest my case...
Defensive Backfield: Browns had Cliff Lewis (9 ints), Lou Saban, Tommy James, and Warren Lahr. Steelers had Mel Blount and Donnie Shell and Tony Dungy
Edge: even or slightly to the Steelers
More than a small edge to PTG...
Dungy led the Steelers with 6 Int's in '78, yet only started two games at CB. Their regular CB's were Blount (Pro Bowler) and Ron Johnson; each of them had 4 Int's in '78. Donnie "Torpedo" Shell had 3 picks and Mike Wagner had a pair.
I actually remembering Warren Lahr... even had his "football card". I think he is still #2 on the Browns All-time INT list (behind Darden), but he was not on the '48 team. Originally drafted by the Steelers in '47, he joined the Browns in '49 and spent that year on the "Taxi Squad". He started playing in '50.
Linebackers: Steelers had HOFers Jack Lambert and Jack Ham and Dennis Winston (Andy Russell had retired by '78). Browns had a decent corps with Tony Adamle, Lin Houston, and Alex Agase
Edge: clearly to the Steelers
Agree... considering 2 HOF'ers are there, I'd say clearly by a bunch...
Defensive Line. Steelers had HOFer Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood and Dwight White. Browns Had HOFers Bill Willis and Len Ford, George Young and a 300 pounder named Chubby Griggs (which was highly unusual for that day)
Edge: Even or slightly to the Browns
Disagree completely... Substantial edge to PTG... It's not even close.
Even including "Chubby" (wasn't he a Little Rascal???) the Browns line averaged a mere 240 lbs. But that average did not include Len Ford as he was not on the '48 Browns. He played for the Los Angeles Dons in '48/'49. He came to the Browns in 1950's special draft for AAFL players on teams not merged into the NFL.
I think Chet Adams was the 4th DL in '48. At 233 Chet was the 2nd heaviest DL. Willis weighed 213; Young 214.
Greene at 275 was the big man for the Steelers, but Furness (255) paired with him flanked by Greenwood (245) and White (255).
Special teams. Browns kicker was HOFer Lou Groza. As kick returner they used Dub Jones who once scored 6 TDs in a game. Punter was Tom Collela, a decent, not great punter.
Steelers kicker was Roy Gerela, Craig Colquitt was the punter, primary KR was Larry Anderson.
Edge: Groza and Jones give Browns clear edge.
Disagree... special teams have push written all over them...
"The Toe's" lifetime FG% was 54.9%; Gerela's 60.1% (Damn, Dawson is good...)
Corela's lifetime Punting Avg. was 37.4 yds; Colquit 41.3
Not sure why Corela was punting with Gillom on the roster???
Dub return average was 10.6 Punts/ 19.6 KO; Anderson KO avg was 22.3/ Punt return by committee average was 7.8
There it is... Like I said, I just can't get by the disparity in the the tow era's lines.
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Matching up teams separated by one decade can be difficult, let alone those separated by three. The skill positions of these two great teams actually compare quite well. The difference I run into every time I try to stack up two different eras are the lines.
The size and athleticism of the '78 Steelers' OL and DL (or Browns or Oilers or any '78 team) are so superior that I can't get past it. With the possible exception of Steve Furness every Steeler defensive starter was probably faster than Marion Motley.
Atop that add the advances in the game schemes over the 30 years that gap these teams. As revolutionary as Paul Brown was the complexity increases on both sides of the ball, but especially on defense, were enormous.
With that knowledge how can anyone possibly choose the Browns???
Here is where you and many other make mistakes. In these tests of teams vs. teams you are NOT trying to really say which team would win if the two played a game.....but how each team fares against its competition in the year it played. I.e. the real question isn't "would the 1923 Bulldogs defeat the 2010 Green Bay Packers" it is: How dominant was that team against it contemporary competition?
In other words, perhaps the Title of the thread is a misnomer. It perhaps should say "The Most Dominant Team in History: The Final Four".
I suggest to you right now that if the 1978 Steelers played the 2011 Cleveland Browns, head to head, the Steelers would probably lose....because there have been more advances in the game in the 35 years or so since 1978 than there were in the 55 years prior to that. Offensive and defensive linemen in the 1940s/50s were playing at weights that were about 250, as were the OL/DL in the 70s, in other words, not much of a difference. Since 1978 however the averages have gone up about 50 pounds to 300 pounds. Chubby Griggs of the 1948 Browns was a complete aberration, and heavier than any player on the '78 Steelers front lines.
Bottom line: one team cannot be measured by the other teams "standards". If we did that then the 1978 Steelers would probably not be a playoff team in the 2010s.
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Defensive Line. Steelers had HOFer Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood and Dwight White. Browns Had HOFers Bill Willis and Len Ford, George Young and a 300 pounder named Chubby Griggs (which was highly unusual for that day)
Edge: Even or slightly to the Browns
Disagree completely... Substantial edge to PTG... It's not even close.
Even including "Chubby" (wasn't he a Little Rascal???) the Browns line averaged a mere 240 lbs. But that average did not include Len Ford as he was not on the '48 Browns. He played for the Los Angeles Dons in '48/'49. He came to the Browns in 1950's special draft for AAFL players on teams not merged into the NFL.
I think Chet Adams was the 4th DL in '48. At 233 Chet was the 2nd heaviest DL. Willis weighed 213; Young 214.
Greene at 275 was the big man for the Steelers, but Furness (255) paired with him flanked by Greenwood (245) and White (255).
Again, see, you are comparing these guys simply because of their weight...a foolish thing to do because if we did that, like I said, the 4-12 2011 Cleveland Browns would blow those lightweight Steelers off the field.
You are right, Ford was not on that Browns team, but I had some source say that Warren Lahr was.
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Special teams. Browns kicker was HOFer Lou Groza. As kick returner they used Dub Jones who once scored 6 TDs in a game. Punter was Tom Collela, a decent, not great punter.
Steelers kicker was Roy Gerela, Craig Colquitt was the punter, primary KR was Larry Anderson.
Edge: Groza and Jones give Browns clear edge.
Disagree... special teams have push written all over them...
"The Toe's" lifetime FG% was 54.9%; Gerela's 60.1% (Damn, Dawson is good...)
Corela's lifetime Punting Avg. was 37.4 yds; Colquit 41.3
Not sure why Corela was punting with Gillom on the roster???
Dub return average was 10.6 Punts/ 19.6 KO; Anderson KO avg was 22.3/ Punt return by committee average was 7.8
Again and again you keep making the same fallacious argument. Lou Groza is a Hall of Famer and the best kicker of his age. Can you say the same for Roy Gerela? No...because compared to his contemporaries he may have been just average.
And you mention Dawson. That simply adds fuel to my fire that the game has changed from 1978, even the kicking pct. have changed. Today 60% FG pct. might get you cut.
And Dub Jones was the Devin Hester of his time. The most feared return man out there. Anderson was at best an average returner amongst his contemporaries. I mean, you would admit that Greg Pruitt was better than he, wouldn't you?
I am not saying that you shouldn't vote for the '78 Steelers, but base it on proper criteria, not on the fact that the game itself may have changed along with the physical dimensions of the players.
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Matching up teams separated by one decade can be difficult, let alone those separated by three. The skill positions of these two great teams actually compare quite well. The difference I run into every time I try to stack up two different eras are the lines.
The size and athleticism of the '78 Steelers' OL and DL (or Browns or Oilers or any '78 team) are so superior that I can't get past it. With the possible exception of Steve Furness every Steeler defensive starter was probably faster than Marion Motley.
Atop that add the advances in the game schemes over the 30 years that gap these teams. As revolutionary as Paul Brown was the complexity increases on both sides of the ball, but especially on defense, were enormous.
With that knowledge how can anyone possibly choose the Browns???
Here is where you and many other make mistakes. In these tests of teams vs. teams you are NOT trying to really say which team would win if the two played a game.....but how each team fares against its competition in the year it played. I.e. the real question isn't "would the 1923 Bulldogs defeat the 2010 Green Bay Packers" it is: How dominant was that team against it contemporary competition?
In other words, perhaps the Title of the thread is a misnomer. It perhaps should say "The Most Dominant Team in History: The Final Four".
I suggest to you right now that if the 1978 Steelers played the 2011 Cleveland Browns, head to head, the Steelers would probably lose....because there have been more advances in the game in the 35 years or so since 1978 than there were in the 55 years prior to that. Offensive and defensive linemen in the 1940s/50s were playing at weights that were about 250, as were the OL/DL in the 70s, in other words, not much of a difference. Since 1978 however the averages have gone up about 50 pounds to 300 pounds. Chubby Griggs of the 1948 Browns was a complete aberration, and heavier than any player on the '78 Steelers front lines.
Bottom line: one team cannot be measured by the other teams "standards". If we did that then the 1978 Steelers would probably not be a playoff team in the 2010s.
Here is where you and many other make mistakes. In these tests of teams vs. teams you are NOT trying to really say which team would win if the two played a game.....but how each team fares against its competition in the year it played. I.e. the real question isn't "would the 1923 Bulldogs defeat the 2010 Green Bay Packers" it is: How dominant was that team against it contemporary competition?
In other words, perhaps the Title of the thread is a misnomer. It perhaps should say "The Most Dominant Team in History: The Final Four".
I suggest to you right now that if the 1978 Steelers played the 2011 Cleveland Browns, head to head, the Steelers would probably lose....because there have been more advances in the game in the 35 years or so since 1978 than there were in the 55 years prior to that. Offensive and defensive linemen in the 1940s/50s were playing at weights that were about 250, as were the OL/DL in the 70s, in other words, not much of a difference. Since 1978 however the averages have gone up about 50 pounds to 300 pounds. Chubby Griggs of the 1948 Browns was a complete aberration, and heavier than any player on the '78 Steelers front lines.
Bottom line: one team cannot be measured by the other teams "standards". If we did that then the 1978 Steelers would probably not be a playoff team in the 2010s.
I as much as said I can't get past "my problem". It is THE problem in doing these old match ups. And based upon the analysis accompanying your picks ('48 Browns and '85 Bears), it just might be your problem as well. Nowhere in your pick analysis do you mention "contemporary competition". Everything was "this position vs. that position" between the two teams.
The '48 Browns played in and dominated the AAFL. Please tell me how strong their competition was. And my HS team was 10-0-1. We dominated the old Lake Erie League and were state ranked. By your logic there's no reason not to include us in your next match-up exercise.
Point is that to compare the relative dominance of two teams in their eras is as fallacious a basis as my athleticism argument. It simply moves the comparison to the relative strength of the eras' leagues. I fail to see how that helps. If you argue that this is not the case, then any comparison is a complete abstraction and therefore worthless. If it is the case, then can the case be made that in 1968 the old AFL was the superior league based upon the Jets domination of the Colts in SBIII?
On another note... I'd like some of that '78 Steelers/ '11 Browns action... Should be able to do a best of seven Madden simulation. How many points are you giving me?
Defensive Line. Steelers had HOFer Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood and Dwight White. Browns Had HOFers Bill Willis and Len Ford, George Young and a 300 pounder named Chubby Griggs (which was highly unusual for that day)
Edge: Even or slightly to the Browns
Disagree completely... Substantial edge to PTG... It's not even close.
Even including "Chubby" (wasn't he a Little Rascal???) the Browns line averaged a mere 240 lbs. But that average did not include Len Ford as he was not on the '48 Browns. He played for the Los Angeles Dons in '48/'49. He came to the Browns in 1950's special draft for AAFL players on teams not merged into the NFL. I think Chet Adams was the 4th DL in '48. At 233 Chet was the 2nd heaviest DL. Willis weighed 213; Young 214.
Greene at 275 was the big man for the Steelers, but Furness (255) paired with him flanked by Greenwood (245) and White (255).
Again, see, you are comparing these guys simply because of their weight...a foolish thing to do because if we did that, like I said, the 4-12 2011 Cleveland Browns would blow those lightweight Steelers off the field.
You are right, Ford was not on that Browns team, but I had some source say that Warren Lahr was.
Yet you made a point of mentioning Chubby's weight???
A 210 pound man in '48 was a large man. That a man of that size could run and be athletic enough to play DE or LG at the Pro level is no less remarkable than a LC Greenwood in '78. But the fact that LC was both bigger and more athletic than the Browns ends is a serious hurdle in this mental exercise.
Cleveland.com put Lahr on the '48 team, but they also had him graduating from CWRU which did not exist until the 70's. In '48 it was WRU (Lahr's alma mater) and CIT (Case Institute of Technology). Multiple other sources including NFL.com do not have Warren on the '48 roster. Simply based upon my remembering him playing, I did not think he'd have been on the '48 team.
I'm old, but I'm not that effin' old...
Special teams. Browns kicker was HOFer Lou Groza. As kick returner they used Dub Jones who once scored 6 TDs in a game. Punter was Tom Collela, a decent, not great punter.
Steelers kicker was Roy Gerela, Craig Colquitt was the punter, primary KR was Larry Anderson.
Edge: Groza and Jones give Browns clear edge.
Disagree... special teams have push written all over them...
"The Toe's" lifetime FG% was 54.9%; Gerela's 60.1% (Damn, Dawson is good...)
Corela's lifetime Punting Avg. was 37.4 yds; Colquit 41.3
Not sure why Corela was punting with Gillom on the roster???
Dub return average was 10.6 Punts/ 19.6 KO; Anderson KO avg was 22.3/ Punt return by committee average was 7.8
Again and again you keep making the same fallacious argument. Lou Groza is a Hall of Famer and the best kicker of his age. Can you say the same for Roy Gerela? No...because compared to his contemporaries he may have been just average.
And you mention Dawson. That simply adds fuel to my fire that the game has changed from 1978, even the kicking pct. have changed. Today 60% FG pct. might get you cut.
And Dub Jones was the Devin Hester of his time. The most feared return man out there. Anderson was at best an average returner amongst his contemporaries. I mean, you would admit that Greg Pruitt was better than he, wouldn't you?
I am not saying that you shouldn't vote for the '78 Steelers, but base it on proper criteria, not on the fact that the game itself may have changed along with the physical dimensions of the players.
Other than it fails to support your argument, I see no reason that we cannot compare kickers' stats. It is nowhere near my other "fallacious argument", i.e., athleticism. There is a specialization argument that could be made, but I have not made that argument. The point is that the stats which were established vs. each teams contemporaries scream "PUSH".
In truth I was shocked to see just how low the great Groza's percentage is. And today <60% virtually guarantees your career is over.
As for KR's... I'll admit Pruitt was better KR than Anderson because his stats as a Brown say he was. Greg averaged 26.3 yds as a Browns' KR. Will you admit that far more attention is paid to Special Teams today than was paid in the 40's? 50's? 60's? Paul Brown was among the first to recognize their value, but back then they were an largely afterthought. I doubt you would agree that diminishes Dub's Special Teams' achievements... but it does. It doesn't diminish his greatest, however...
So go ahead and vote for the '48 Browns, but at least base it upon the criteria you are promoting as the one true criteria.
My original get real prompting was based upon my perception that there was generous "homer" element to the voting so far. You have shown that does not apply to you. Rather you, sir, are simply a romantic nostalgist voting with your heart.
Nothing wrong with that... it simply is what it is...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Here is where you and many other make mistakes. In these tests of teams vs. teams you are NOT trying to really say which team would win if the two played a game.....but how each team fares against its competition in the year it played. I.e. the real question isn't "would the 1923 Bulldogs defeat the 2010 Green Bay Packers" it is: How dominant was that team against it contemporary competition?
In other words, perhaps the Title of the thread is a misnomer. It perhaps should say "The Most Dominant Team in History: The Final Four".
I suggest to you right now that if the 1978 Steelers played the 2011 Cleveland Browns, head to head, the Steelers would probably lose....because there have been more advances in the game in the 35 years or so since 1978 than there were in the 55 years prior to that. Offensive and defensive linemen in the 1940s/50s were playing at weights that were about 250, as were the OL/DL in the 70s, in other words, not much of a difference. Since 1978 however the averages have gone up about 50 pounds to 300 pounds. Chubby Griggs of the 1948 Browns was a complete aberration, and heavier than any player on the '78 Steelers front lines.
Bottom line: one team cannot be measured by the other teams "standards". If we did that then the 1978 Steelers would probably not be a playoff team in the 2010s.
I as much as said I can't get past "my problem". It is THE problem in doing these old match ups. And based upon the analysis accompanying your picks ('48 Browns and '85 Bears), it just might be your problem as well. Nowhere in your pick analysis do you mention "contemporary competition". Everything was "this position vs. that position" between the two teams.
The '48 Browns played in and dominated the AAFL. Please tell me how strong their competition was. And my HS team was 10-0-1. We dominated the old Lake Erie League and were state ranked. By your logic there's no reason not to include us in your next match-up exercise.
Point is that to compare the relative dominance of two teams in their eras is as fallacious a basis as my athleticism argument. It simply moves the comparison to the relative strength of the eras' leagues. I fail to see how that helps. If you argue that this is not the case, then any comparison is a complete abstraction and therefore worthless. If it is the case, then can the case be made that in 1968 the old AFL was the superior league based upon the Jets domination of the Colts in SBIII?
On another note... I'd like some of that '78 Steelers/ '11 Browns action... Should be able to do a best of seven Madden simulation. How many points are you giving me?
Defensive Line. Steelers had HOFer Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood and Dwight White. Browns Had HOFers Bill Willis and Len Ford, George Young and a 300 pounder named Chubby Griggs (which was highly unusual for that day)
Edge: Even or slightly to the Browns
Disagree completely... Substantial edge to PTG... It's not even close.
Even including "Chubby" (wasn't he a Little Rascal???) the Browns line averaged a mere 240 lbs. But that average did not include Len Ford as he was not on the '48 Browns. He played for the Los Angeles Dons in '48/'49. He came to the Browns in 1950's special draft for AAFL players on teams not merged into the NFL. I think Chet Adams was the 4th DL in '48. At 233 Chet was the 2nd heaviest DL. Willis weighed 213; Young 214.
Greene at 275 was the big man for the Steelers, but Furness (255) paired with him flanked by Greenwood (245) and White (255).
Again, see, you are comparing these guys simply because of their weight...a foolish thing to do because if we did that, like I said, the 4-12 2011 Cleveland Browns would blow those lightweight Steelers off the field.
You are right, Ford was not on that Browns team, but I had some source say that Warren Lahr was.
Yet you made a point of mentioning Chubby's weight???
A 210 pound man in '48 was a large man. That a man of that size could run and be athletic enough to play DE or LG at the Pro level is no less remarkable than a LC Greenwood in '78. But the fact that LC was both bigger and more athletic than the Browns ends is a serious hurdle in this mental exercise.
Cleveland.com put Lahr on the '48 team, but they also had him graduating from CWRU which did not exist until the 70's. In '48 it was WRU (Lahr's alma mater) and CIT (Case Institute of Technology). Multiple other sources including NFL.com do not have Warren on the '48 roster. Simply based upon my remembering him playing, I did not think he'd have been on the '48 team.
I'm old, but I'm not that effin' old...
Special teams. Browns kicker was HOFer Lou Groza. As kick returner they used Dub Jones who once scored 6 TDs in a game. Punter was Tom Collela, a decent, not great punter.
Steelers kicker was Roy Gerela, Craig Colquitt was the punter, primary KR was Larry Anderson.
Edge: Groza and Jones give Browns clear edge.
Disagree... special teams have push written all over them...
"The Toe's" lifetime FG% was 54.9%; Gerela's 60.1% (Damn, Dawson is good...)
Corela's lifetime Punting Avg. was 37.4 yds; Colquit 41.3
Not sure why Corela was punting with Gillom on the roster???
Dub return average was 10.6 Punts/ 19.6 KO; Anderson KO avg was 22.3/ Punt return by committee average was 7.8
Again and again you keep making the same fallacious argument. Lou Groza is a Hall of Famer and the best kicker of his age. Can you say the same for Roy Gerela? No...because compared to his contemporaries he may have been just average.
And you mention Dawson. That simply adds fuel to my fire that the game has changed from 1978, even the kicking pct. have changed. Today 60% FG pct. might get you cut.
And Dub Jones was the Devin Hester of his time. The most feared return man out there. Anderson was at best an average returner amongst his contemporaries. I mean, you would admit that Greg Pruitt was better than he, wouldn't you?
I am not saying that you shouldn't vote for the '78 Steelers, but base it on proper criteria, not on the fact that the game itself may have changed along with the physical dimensions of the players.
Other than it fails to support your argument, I see no reason that we cannot compare kickers' stats. It is nowhere near my other "fallacious argument", i.e., athleticism. There is a specialization argument that could be made, but I have not made that argument. The point is that the stats which were established vs. each teams contemporaries scream "PUSH".
In truth I was shocked to see just how low the great Groza's percentage is. And today <60% virtually guarantees your career is over.
As for KR's... I'll admit Pruitt was better KR than Anderson because his stats as a Brown say he was. Greg averaged 26.3 yds as a Browns' KR. Will you admit that far more attention is paid to Special Teams today than was paid in the 40's? 50's? 60's? Paul Brown was among the first to recognize their value, but back then they were an largely afterthought. I doubt you would agree that diminishes Dub's Special Teams' achievements... but it does. It doesn't diminish his greatest, however...
So go ahead and vote for the '48 Browns, but at least base it upon the criteria you are promoting as the one true criteria.
My original get real prompting was based upon my perception that there was generous "homer" element to the voting so far. You have shown that does not apply to you. Rather you, sir, are simply a romantic nostalgist voting with your heart.
Nothing wrong with that... it simply is what it is...
I as much as said I can't get past "my problem". It is THE problem in doing these old match ups. And based upon the analysis accompanying your picks ('48 Browns and '85 Bears), it just might be your problem as well. Nowhere in your pick analysis do you mention "contemporary competition". Everything was "this position vs. that position" between the two teams.
The '48 Browns played in and dominated the AAFL. Please tell me how strong their competition was. And my HS team was 10-0-1. We dominated the old Lake Erie League and were state ranked. By your logic there's no reason not to include us in your next match-up exercise.
Point is that to compare the relative dominance of two teams in their eras is as fallacious a basis as my athleticism argument. It simply moves the comparison to the relative strength of the eras' leagues. I fail to see how that helps. If you argue that this is not the case, then any comparison is a complete abstraction and therefore worthless. If it is the case, then can the case be made that in 1968 the old AFL was the superior league based upon the Jets domination of the Colts in SBIII?
On another note... I'd like some of that '78 Steelers/ '11 Browns action... Should be able to do a best of seven Madden simulation. How many points are you giving me?
Yet you made a point of mentioning Chubby's weight???
A 210 pound man in '48 was a large man. That a man of that size could run and be athletic enough to play DE or LG at the Pro level is no less remarkable than a LC Greenwood in '78. But the fact that LC was both bigger and more athletic than the Browns ends is a serious hurdle in this mental exercise.
Cleveland.com put Lahr on the '48 team, but they also had him graduating from CWRU which did not exist until the 70's. In '48 it was WRU (Lahr's alma mater) and CIT (Case Institute of Technology). Multiple other sources including NFL.com do not have Warren on the '48 roster. Simply based upon my remembering him playing, I did not think he'd have been on the '48 team.
I'm old, but I'm not that effin' old...
Other than it fails to support your argument, I see no reason that we cannot compare kickers' stats. It is nowhere near my other "fallacious argument", i.e., athleticism. There is a specialization argument that could be made, but I have not made that argument. The point is that the stats which were established vs. each teams contemporaries scream "PUSH".
In truth I was shocked to see just how low the great Groza's percentage is. And today <60% virtually guarantees your career is over.
As for KR's... I'll admit Pruitt was better KR than Anderson because his stats as a Brown say he was. Greg averaged 26.3 yds as a Browns' KR. Will you admit that far more attention is paid to Special Teams today than was paid in the 40's? 50's? 60's? Paul Brown was among the first to recognize their value, but back then they were an largely afterthought. I doubt you would agree that diminishes Dub's Special Teams' achievements... but it does. It doesn't diminish his greatest, however...
So go ahead and vote for the '48 Browns, but at least base it upon the criteria you are promoting as the one true criteria.
My original get real prompting was based upon my perception that there was generous "homer" element to the voting so far. You have shown that does not apply to you. Rather you, sir, are simply a romantic nostalgist voting with your heart.
Nothing wrong with that... it simply is what it is...
There may have indeed been a homer element to the voting...but the voting was available to all.
What result do you think this type of playoff would have garnered on a Steeler fan board?
As for the rest of what you said....the fact is, the athleticism, weight etc. of the 70s Steelers and the 40s/50s Browns is much more comparable than today's players are to the 70s players.
If you did take each position by position, I suspect you might find only a 15-20 pound disparity between 40s/50s players to 70s players. That disparity is now more like 50 pounds between 2010s players and 70s players.
(and I mentioned Chubby Griggs because he was simply an aberration...he was for the 40s, he would have been for the 70s, but not so much for today)
Nevertheless, this was a voting preference contest. My vote was not deciding on that contest. It apparently will be in the Bears/Dolphins matchup
-
The '48 Browns played in and dominated the AAFL. Please tell me how strong their competition was. And my HS team was 10-0-1. We dominated the old Lake Erie League and were state ranked. By your logic there's no reason not to include us in your next match-up exercise.
To answer this question: the AAFC, not AAFL, was close to as good or better than the NFL. The Browns dominated the NFL about as good as they did the AAFC.
The AAFC paid more, had more black players, had bigger crowds.
(and why are you sounding like a Steeler fan with that shit)
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Final Result:
Votes for the 1985 Bears vs. 1972 Dolphins ended in a tie....so it is my vote that breaks the tie:
Winner: 1985 Bears
1948 Browns defeated the 1978 Steelers.
-
I as much as said I can't get past "my problem". It is THE problem in doing these old match ups. And based upon the analysis accompanying your picks ('48 Browns and '85 Bears), it just might be your problem as well. Nowhere in your pick analysis do you mention "contemporary competition". Everything was "this position vs. that position" between the two teams.
The '48 Browns played in and dominated the AAFL. Please tell me how strong their competition was. And my HS team was 10-0-1. We dominated the old Lake Erie League and were state ranked. By your logic there's no reason not to include us in your next match-up exercise.
Point is that to compare the relative dominance of two teams in their eras is as fallacious a basis as my athleticism argument. It simply moves the comparison to the relative strength of the eras' leagues. I fail to see how that helps. If you argue that this is not the case, then any comparison is a complete abstraction and therefore worthless. If it is the case, then can the case be made that in 1968 the old AFL was the superior league based upon the Jets domination of the Colts in SBIII?
On another note... I'd like some of that '78 Steelers/ '11 Browns action... Should be able to do a best of seven Madden simulation. How many points are you giving me?
Yet you made a point of mentioning Chubby's weight???
A 210 pound man in '48 was a large man. That a man of that size could run and be athletic enough to play DE or LG at the Pro level is no less remarkable than a LC Greenwood in '78. But the fact that LC was both bigger and more athletic than the Browns ends is a serious hurdle in this mental exercise.
Cleveland.com put Lahr on the '48 team, but they also had him graduating from CWRU which did not exist until the 70's. In '48 it was WRU (Lahr's alma mater) and CIT (Case Institute of Technology). Multiple other sources including NFL.com do not have Warren on the '48 roster. Simply based upon my remembering him playing, I did not think he'd have been on the '48 team.
I'm old, but I'm not that effin' old...
Other than it fails to support your argument, I see no reason that we cannot compare kickers' stats. It is nowhere near my other "fallacious argument", i.e., athleticism. There is a specialization argument that could be made, but I have not made that argument. The point is that the stats which were established vs. each teams contemporaries scream "PUSH".
In truth I was shocked to see just how low the great Groza's percentage is. And today <60% virtually guarantees your career is over.
As for KR's... I'll admit Pruitt was better KR than Anderson because his stats as a Brown say he was. Greg averaged 26.3 yds as a Browns' KR. Will you admit that far more attention is paid to Special Teams today than was paid in the 40's? 50's? 60's? Paul Brown was among the first to recognize their value, but back then they were an largely afterthought. I doubt you would agree that diminishes Dub's Special Teams' achievements... but it does. It doesn't diminish his greatest, however...
So go ahead and vote for the '48 Browns, but at least base it upon the criteria you are promoting as the one true criteria.
My original get real prompting was based upon my perception that there was generous "homer" element to the voting so far. You have shown that does not apply to you. Rather you, sir, are simply a romantic nostalgist voting with your heart.
Nothing wrong with that... it simply is what it is...
There may have indeed been a homer element to the voting...but the voting was available to all.
What result do you think this type of playoff would have garnered on a Steeler fan board?
As for the rest of what you said....the fact is, the athleticism, weight etc. of the 70s Steelers and the 40s/50s Browns is much more comparable than today's players are to the 70s players.
If you did take each position by position, I suspect you might find only a 15-20 pound disparity between 40s/50s players to 70s players. That disparity is now more like 50 pounds between 2010s players and 70s players.
(and I mentioned Chubby Griggs because he was simply an aberration...he was for the 40s, he would have been for the 70s, but not so much for today)
Nevertheless, this was a voting preference contest. My vote was not deciding on that contest. It apparently will be in the Bears/Dolphins matchup
There may have indeed been a homer element to the voting...but the voting was available to all.
What result do you think this type of playoff would have garnered on a Steeler fan board?
I'm guessing they would have gotten it right...
To answer this question: the AAFC, not AAFL, was close to as good or better than the NFL. The Browns dominated the NFL about as good as they did the AAFC.
The AAFC paid more, had more black players, had bigger crowds.
(and why are you sounding like a Steeler fan with that shit))
I know that the Browns dominated the NFL early on, starting with game 1 vs. the mighty Eagles, but that's not a case for the strength of the AAFC. Excepting the NFL's relative bigotry (which PB, much to his credit, refused to participate in) there is no objective evidence that I have found showing that the AAFC was a stronger league.
As for my "Steeler shit"... Trust me... it's only the passage of years that have permitted me any degree of perspective when it comes to the Steelers.
As a native Greater Clevelander who moved to "Luv Ya Blue" Houston and was robbed in Three Rivers in the '79 Conf Championship, I've had many issues with the Steelers.
See ya in the Finals vote...
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Final Result:
Votes for the 1985 Bears vs. 1972 Dolphins ended in a tie....so it is my vote that breaks the tie:
Winner: 1985 Bears
1948 Browns defeated the 1978 Steelers.
xxxx Browns defeated the xxxx Steelers.
I just like reading that, don't care what the years are.
Zombo
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