Exit Polls
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Democrats engaging in "we're less at fault then Republicans." Are guilty of partisan finger pointing. That's exactly what I mean. You're only proving my statement right. Who cares who's more at fault? They're both at fault.
Well, I just disagree. I care, and it matters. They're not equally at fault and it's worth pointing out.
I can point you to the use of the filibuster by Republicans versus Democrats. That's a good measure. I mean, let's be real: when President Obama got in to office, he was riding a huge wave. The Republicans, led by Mitch McConnell, devised a strategy to oppose everything he did. Really. Just say no to everything. The theory was that if Obama promised change and a new tone, and then the public saw none of it happen and partisanship, they'd turn on Obama and put Republicans back in charge. And it worked pretty well in 2010.
"“People were pretty demoralized, and there were two totally opposite thoughts on how to approach the situation,” a McConnell aide recalls. “One was, `we don't like the president, we ought to pop him early.’ The other was, `he’s really popular, we should work with him, because that’s what people want us to do.’ The boss’s take was: Neither." McConnell realized that it would be much easier to fight Obama if Republicans first made a public show of wanting to work with him."
As Sen. Voinovich recalled, "“He wanted everyone to hold the fort. All he cared about was making sure Obama could never have a clean victory.”
Or Joe Biden: “I spoke to seven different Republican Senators, who said, `Joe, I’m not going to be able to help you on anything,’ he recalls. His informants said [senate Minority Leader Mitch] McConnell had demanded unified resistance. “The way it was characterized to me was: `For the next two years, we can’t let you succeed in anything. That’s our ticket to coming back,’” Biden says. The vice president says he hasn’t even told Obama who his sources were, but Bob Bennett of Utah and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania both confirmed they had conversations with Biden along these lines.
...Is that the kind of partisanship you're talking about needing to go away? I think so too.
Well, I just disagree. I care, and it matters. They're not equally at fault and it's worth pointing out.
I can point you to the use of the filibuster by Republicans versus Democrats. That's a good measure. I mean, let's be real: when President Obama got in to office, he was riding a huge wave. The Republicans, led by Mitch McConnell, devised a strategy to oppose everything he did. Really. Just say no to everything. The theory was that if Obama promised change and a new tone, and then the public saw none of it happen and partisanship, they'd turn on Obama and put Republicans back in charge. And it worked pretty well in 2010.
"“People were pretty demoralized, and there were two totally opposite thoughts on how to approach the situation,” a McConnell aide recalls. “One was, `we don't like the president, we ought to pop him early.’ The other was, `he’s really popular, we should work with him, because that’s what people want us to do.’ The boss’s take was: Neither." McConnell realized that it would be much easier to fight Obama if Republicans first made a public show of wanting to work with him."
As Sen. Voinovich recalled, "“He wanted everyone to hold the fort. All he cared about was making sure Obama could never have a clean victory.”
Or Joe Biden: “I spoke to seven different Republican Senators, who said, `Joe, I’m not going to be able to help you on anything,’ he recalls. His informants said [senate Minority Leader Mitch] McConnell had demanded unified resistance. “The way it was characterized to me was: `For the next two years, we can’t let you succeed in anything. That’s our ticket to coming back,’” Biden says. The vice president says he hasn’t even told Obama who his sources were, but Bob Bennett of Utah and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania both confirmed they had conversations with Biden along these lines.
...Is that the kind of partisanship you're talking about needing to go away? I think so too.
Listen, clearly, the republicans are not helping anything. If the democratic party has any brains they will realize they've won, celebrate in private, and extend the olive branch for real. Otherwise the partisanship will eventually come to civil war. Both parties need to back off certain really divisive issues like gay rights, abortion and gun control and work on things everyone can agree upon like employment and the budget. Sometimes the best thing that can happen is nothing. Barack Obamas legacy will be much better If we get out of the debt crises more or less unscathed than if the ship sinks but gays are finally allowed to marry (for the record I'm for gay marriage.) The big picture is what's important right now.
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You disagree largely because you're all in for one side. Where, exactly, do you differ from the liberal ideology?
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I'm not all in for one side. There's just no one to cheer for on the other side anymore. I grew up as a Bill Weld Republican, but there are no Bill Weld Republicans anymore. They don't get elected. In fact, how did Bill Weld's career come to a close? His nomination to be ambassador to Mexico was blocked. By Jesse Helms.
I'm probably what you'd call a "corporate Democrat." Which used to be a moderate Republican.
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Chris Christie? Is he a giant turd sandwich? I like Christie. I wish he wasn't fat though, because a fat guy isn't an attractive choice in American Idol Politics
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I like Christie and his candor, but he's not in Congress. He's the governor of a blue state. If I had to name some other Republicans I like, that don't freak me out, I'd say Jeb Bush, Bobby Jindal, Chuck Hagel, Susan Collins. Guys like Tom Coburn and Bob Corker are conservatives, but serious guys who you can deal with.
There aren't that many. Every time one goes away, like a Richard Lugar or a John Warner, the Republican taking their place is almost always more conservative, more ideological, and less willing to compromise.
I'm hardly the only one making this critique of the Republican Party's draft to the right, or even to crazytown. You can find it pretty much everywhere.
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Yeah we've established there's plenty of blame for republicans. Are you willing to accept blame for the partisanship of democrats? How willing are prominant dems to work across the aisle, really.
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They're very willing. Watch what happens in the next few weeks.
Or read about the negotiations for the grand bargain. Look at what Obama put on the table.
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They're very willing. Watch what happens in the next few weeks.
Or read about the negotiations for the grand bargain. Look at what Obama put on the table.
They're very willing. Watch what happens in the next few weeks.
Or read about the negotiations for the grand bargain. Look at what Obama put on the table.
I'd love for that to happen, that would be just fine. The New Deal was well hated by the right and we got through that. The world war didn't hurt, though. Lots of jobs in a world war.
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Do you think democrats would agree to outlaw abortion with provisions for incest, rape, and legitimate life threatening situations? And only those things?
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Oh, no. Absolutely not.
It's unlikely you're going to have that kind of compromise on abortion because that'd just be seen as mostly the Republican position. It's simply not a tenable compromise. And the politics are such that it's such a base issue for both sides, a big fundraiser and vote getter, that the people most invested in it have no desire to compromise anyway.
If the Democrats offered a compromise position it'd be something like in Germany, where abortions are banned after the first trimester except in cases where the mother's life or health are in danger. But that wouldn't satisfy anyone on the right because that's essentially what we have now. So you're stuck.
I'd look for compromises elsewhere. Or look for ways we can reduce abortions.
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Oh, no. Absolutely not.
It's unlikely you're going to have that kind of compromise on abortion because that'd just be seen as mostly the Republican position. It's simply not a tenable compromise. And the politics are such that it's such a base issue for both sides, a big fundraiser and vote getter, that the people most invested in it have no desire to compromise anyway.
If the Democrats offered a compromise position it'd be something like in Germany, where abortions are banned after the first trimester except in cases where the mother's life or health are in danger. But that wouldn't satisfy anyone on the right because that's essentially what we have now. So you're stuck.
I'd look for compromises elsewhere. Or look for ways we can reduce abortions.
Oh, no. Absolutely not.
It's unlikely you're going to have that kind of compromise on abortion because that'd just be seen as mostly the Republican position. It's simply not a tenable compromise. And the politics are such that it's such a base issue for both sides, a big fundraiser and vote getter, that the people most invested in it have no desire to compromise anyway.
If the Democrats offered a compromise position it'd be something like in Germany, where abortions are banned after the first trimester except in cases where the mother's life or health are in danger. But that wouldn't satisfy anyone on the right because that's essentially what we have now. So you're stuck.
I'd look for compromises elsewhere. Or look for ways we can reduce abortions.
1-time $1500 government paycheck for women 16-21 who get their tubes tied.
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Oh, no. Absolutely not.
It's unlikely you're going to have that kind of compromise on abortion because that'd just be seen as mostly the Republican position. It's simply not a tenable compromise. And the politics are such that it's such a base issue for both sides, a big fundraiser and vote getter, that the people most invested in it have no desire to compromise anyway.
If the Democrats offered a compromise position it'd be something like in Germany, where abortions are banned after the first trimester except in cases where the mother's life or health are in danger. But that wouldn't satisfy anyone on the right because that's essentially what we have now. So you're stuck.
I'd look for compromises elsewhere. Or look for ways we can reduce abortions.
1-time $1500 government paycheck for women 16-21 who get their tubes tied.
1-time $1500 government paycheck for women 16-21 who get their tubes tied.
I'll go with this, but sweeten the pot. 5000 dollars one time no kids ever. You can have all the promiscuous unprotected sex you want.
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How about letting people do what they want, accepting that not everyone is going to be responsible because not everyone is? We're certainly not going to pay for young women to have their tubes tied.
But let's get past the first layer of this debate because once you start walking through it it's pretty interesting.
Around half of pregnancies in the United States are unintended. Around half of those end in abortion.
So here are the ways we know you can reduce the number of abortions, and after looking at them you get to see the bind you start getting in:
- Access to free contraception. We know this works. It's been studied. It also costs money to provide. Obamacare, of course, famously requires this coverage as a part of women's health insurance plan. Republicans are against this, both for reasons of religious liberty and for reasons of "not wanting to pay for someone else's fucking." So there you go: a surefire way to reduce the number of abortions, but not supported by the Party that would seemingly want to reduce abortions. Instead, they favor a total ban, or a ban with exemptions.
- Provide financial support to lower-income mothers who become pregnant. One of the top reasons women have abortions is because they don't feel they can financially support another child. Offering government money for things like health and day care services and food and other costs associated with child rearing has been shown to reduce some number of abortions in countries with greater social safety net protections for mothers and their children. But this is highly unlikely to be a solution that is politically feasible in the United States.
- Comprehensive sex and contraceptive education for teens. Also shown to lower the number of unintended pregnancies. Also not something many parents want taught in their schools. Also costs money to provide.
- Adoption services and counseling. This is done in many places, given to women as another option, but this hasn't been shown to reduce abortion levels significantly, or at all. You also have to pay for this, of course.
...So next time you hear a politician talk about wanting to reduce the number of abortions, you might notice they never actually say what that might entail because many people don't want to do what it actually entails. It's almost always lip service. However, the first choice - access to free contraception - is the most effective and is also about to become the law of the land. You can be for it or against it, but it's likely to reduce the number of abortions.
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Why not pay to have tubes tied? 5000 dollars one time is a lot less than you'll pay for welfare for that kid. No muss no fuss over and done. Or will it be one less future democrat to count on?
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lol, it would never happen. The Republicans will be against it because they seem to be against any form of birth control. No woman is ever going to be okay with that legislation. I still think it would help.
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So would snuffing the babies out with a pillow, but we don't do that either.
Not everyone is going to be responsible in the way you or I would like. Hell, we're not as responsible as you or I would like. Unintended pregnancies happen. It's about half of all pregnancies. You're going to have even more among populations without health care/access to contraceptive coverage. This is the reality.
And that's what's always fun about walking you through past the political rhetoric, because what would it take to actually reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions? Stuff most people don't want to pay for, and stuff that many people are offended by.
What's left? Yelling at those people for being irresponsible.
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So would snuffing the babies out with a pillow, but we don't do that either.
Not everyone is going to be responsible in the way you or I would like. Hell, we're not as responsible as you or I would like. Unintended pregnancies happen. It's about half of all pregnancies. You're going to have even more among populations without health care/access to contraceptive coverage. This is the reality.
And that's what's always fun about walking you through past the political rhetoric, because what would it take to actually reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions? Stuff most people don't want to pay for, and stuff that many people are offended by.
What's left? Yelling at those people for being irresponsible.
So would snuffing the babies out with a pillow, but we don't do that either.
Not everyone is going to be responsible in the way you or I would like. Hell, we're not as responsible as you or I would like. Unintended pregnancies happen. It's about half of all pregnancies. You're going to have even more among populations without health care/access to contraceptive coverage. This is the reality.
And that's what's always fun about walking you through past the political rhetoric, because what would it take to actually reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions? Stuff most people don't want to pay for, and stuff that many people are offended by.
What's left? Yelling at those people for being irresponsible.
You don't need coverage to buy condoms heck. Why is this always so easily forgotten? The single easiest thing you could possibly do to avoid pregnancies requires no health care coverage at all. Or are all the evil republicans out to get Trojan as well?
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Here's another place where DNA on file would be handy.
Find the baby daddy and charge him child support.
Just like you would any dead beat dad.
Then he's got at least some financial stake in being a little more responsible.
By letting the imaginary thousands of marijuana possession criminals out of jail you free up space for him and his like.
WSS
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So would snuffing the babies out with a pillow, but we don't do that either.
Not everyone is going to be responsible in the way you or I would like. Hell, we're not as responsible as you or I would like. Unintended pregnancies happen. It's about half of all pregnancies. You're going to have even more among populations without health care/access to contraceptive coverage. This is the reality.
And that's what's always fun about walking you through past the political rhetoric, because what would it take to actually reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions? Stuff most people don't want to pay for, and stuff that many people are offended by.
What's left? Yelling at those people for being irresponsible.
So would snuffing the babies out with a pillow, but we don't do that either.
Ah yes, the fourth trimester abortion.
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Here's another place where DNA on file would be handy.
Find the baby daddy and charge him child support.
Just like you would any dead beat dad.
Then he's got at least some financial stake in being a little more responsible.
By letting the imaginary thousands of marijuana possession criminals out of jail you free up space for him and his like.
WSS
Here's another place where DNA on file would be handy.
Find the baby daddy and charge him child support.
Just like you would any dead beat dad.
Then he's got at least some financial stake in being a little more responsible.
By letting the imaginary thousands of marijuana possession criminals out of jail you free up space for him and his like.
WSS
They do this already. We don't have a universal DNA database, but we establish paternity and force child support payments.
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